Yes and who's fault is that? They adopted a strategy to cater to the Right and to be ever so slightly left of Republicans on issue after issue. Republicans set a big goal and kept working towards it, never giving an inch, never refusing to give up until they got what they wanted.
Yes and who's fault is that? They adopted a strategy to cater to the Right and to be ever so slightly left of Republicans on issue after issue. Republicans set a big goal and kept working towards it, never giving an inch, never refusing to give up until they got what they wanted.
Where has THAT energy been for the past 50 years?
So many people want to act like there was nothing they could have done differently and then when some of us say "Hey, you could have done these things" they say "No, no, no, that's not realistic."
You say this as if people can't be persuaded at all, as if they weren't persuaded to vote for a demonstrable imbecile, completely unqualified for the presidency, just 6 years ago. Democrats could have taken a different strategy and fought for the things they cared about.
This is the part where I do what you're doing and say that they never actually cared about those things.
No one is saying the Dems never made mistakes, but your characterization of them as not caring about issues important to liberals and assigning motive to them is unfair and inaccurate.
We have to deal in the reality that the Electoral College and the Senate tilt the field dramatically in favor of the GOP. JVL has written about this.
If you want to take a stroll through 50 years of history, I’d be glad to, because you are overlooking a lot of major facts that have affected how the Dems have acted.
In 1972, the Dems lost the presidential election by losing 49 states. We won in 1976 largely because of Watergate & we won with a moderate southern candidate. In 1980, we not only lost the WH, we lost the Senate. And in 1984, we lost the presidential election in another 49 state debacle. In 1988 we lost the White House again & it wasn’t close. Bill Clinton led an inspired effort to get us back in the game & it’s likely that without that effort no Democrat would have seen the inside of the White House in the last 25 years except to go on a tour.
Disclaimer—I worked in the Clinton WH for 8 years. Despite what the left likes to say, we accomplished a lot of good things. We restored progressivity to the tax code without one GOP vote. We banned assault weapons & passed the Brady Bill. We expanded child health care. We also made mistakes. I believe the biggest one was deregulation of the financial system. But we were not a bunch of people who didn’t care nor were we GOP lite. And for 6 of the 8 years we faced a hostile GOP/Gingrich-led Congress.
The Supreme Court we have today is the direct result of left wing voters who didn’t think Al Gore was pure enough & voted for Nader or sat the 2000 election out. That got us Alito & Roberts. And it’s a result of left wing voters who hated Hillary & voted for Jill Stein or Trump or who didn’t vote. That got us Gorshuch, Kavanaugh & Barrett. Hillary talked about the Supreme Court a lot during that campaign. She warned us. The left was clearly unmoved.
So before you blame Democrats who haven’t been pure enough to suit you, maybe look to your left for the reason we are stuck with this dangerous, horrible Court.
Without Bill Clinton, there would have been no Barack or Joe. The problem is, those who constantly complain about the lack of progressivism under the elected Democrats, they would rather have lost those races in the unprovable belief that a "True Progressive" could have won and saved the Dems and therefore the Country. It usually ends with some reference to FDR, and the like. It is, as with most LW discussions, absolute gibberish with no basis in history. It is the Susan Sarandon view of politics that only serves Susan Sarandon.
This sort of silliness is the exact reason why no sustainable left wing movement in this country has ever arisen. In a country like the US, where people have an innate distrust of large institutions, the people will be highly skeptical of a "cradle to grave" system that many of those on the Left want. This is a country where people want to succeed, value hard work and economic attainment, not social safety. If safety was our main guidepost, then guns would not be ubiquitous, internet porn would not be free and accessible to all, we would have no video games, rap music and violent movies, and drinking would be outlawed.
Again, the Left often forgets what country they are trying to run. This is what leads to their failure. It is also why on too many occasions, people on the Left find themselves increasingly disdainful of the American people.
You see this same thing on the Right by the way, mainly around social issues.
I’m honestly lost with what you are arguing here. Are you saying that “democrats could have done x but didn’t” and that is why we are here? Or are you arguing that we would be here anyway? I just don’t see how democrats could have stopped the overturning of roe without winning more presidential elections (2 of which they won the popular vote in and one of those was decided by said Supreme Court on a questionable doctrine)
Trump got elected because of a quirk in the electoral college that allowed him to win with 3 million fewer votes than his opponent. That has never happened before. In 2020 he almost won despite losing by 8 million votes.
If you think that's the strategy Democrats should pursue -- "but he fights! who cares about the popular vote" -- then make that case.
Who exactly are the 80,000 persuadables in swing states that care enough about abortion to pull the lever for Hillary -- who, in the debates with Trump, made a big deal that choice was on the ballot, and which Trump also bluntly promised -- instead of Jill Stein or Gary Johnson?
Maybe those Stein voters could have taken the predictions of the Trump threat seriously and voted for Hillary instead. Then Hillary would have won the electoral College. They learned their lesson and after seeing the Trump threat in action, they voted for Biden. Same story in 2000. If the Green voters had voted for Gore in Florida, bush would have lost.
There was nothing to fight about regarding abortion on the Left because it was protected by Roe. Do you think that pushing for a federal law regarding abortion would animate voters for decades? Broadly speaking, though, Democrats do need to improve on messaging and rallying the troops.
Don't waste your time. Tom must have gotten lost on the way to Daily Kos. His attitude is just the kind of brain dead, lack of reality thinking that predominates that site. (Why I left).
When they are not arguing over whether those who oppose continued use of the term "Latin X" are more racist or sexist, or, whether AOC should run for POTUS in 2024 or 2028, they spend much of their time yelling at the Democratic Party for not being progressive enough. Yet, when it is pointed out that every time a "true progressive" runs for the Dem Nomination for POTUS they lose, they start yelling and saying the process was rigged because something.....
Its like arguing with my teenager, who is a big Bernie supporter. Ultimately, I just stopped trying to talk to him about it and decided to respond to each of his half-witted diatribes with "will see". That has the benefit of (i) keeping my blood pressure down, and (ii) raising his, which puts a smile on my face :)
Yes and who's fault is that? They adopted a strategy to cater to the Right and to be ever so slightly left of Republicans on issue after issue. Republicans set a big goal and kept working towards it, never giving an inch, never refusing to give up until they got what they wanted.
Where has THAT energy been for the past 50 years?
So many people want to act like there was nothing they could have done differently and then when some of us say "Hey, you could have done these things" they say "No, no, no, that's not realistic."
You say this as if people can't be persuaded at all, as if they weren't persuaded to vote for a demonstrable imbecile, completely unqualified for the presidency, just 6 years ago. Democrats could have taken a different strategy and fought for the things they cared about.
This is the part where I do what you're doing and say that they never actually cared about those things.
Tom,
No one is saying the Dems never made mistakes, but your characterization of them as not caring about issues important to liberals and assigning motive to them is unfair and inaccurate.
We have to deal in the reality that the Electoral College and the Senate tilt the field dramatically in favor of the GOP. JVL has written about this.
If you want to take a stroll through 50 years of history, I’d be glad to, because you are overlooking a lot of major facts that have affected how the Dems have acted.
In 1972, the Dems lost the presidential election by losing 49 states. We won in 1976 largely because of Watergate & we won with a moderate southern candidate. In 1980, we not only lost the WH, we lost the Senate. And in 1984, we lost the presidential election in another 49 state debacle. In 1988 we lost the White House again & it wasn’t close. Bill Clinton led an inspired effort to get us back in the game & it’s likely that without that effort no Democrat would have seen the inside of the White House in the last 25 years except to go on a tour.
Disclaimer—I worked in the Clinton WH for 8 years. Despite what the left likes to say, we accomplished a lot of good things. We restored progressivity to the tax code without one GOP vote. We banned assault weapons & passed the Brady Bill. We expanded child health care. We also made mistakes. I believe the biggest one was deregulation of the financial system. But we were not a bunch of people who didn’t care nor were we GOP lite. And for 6 of the 8 years we faced a hostile GOP/Gingrich-led Congress.
The Supreme Court we have today is the direct result of left wing voters who didn’t think Al Gore was pure enough & voted for Nader or sat the 2000 election out. That got us Alito & Roberts. And it’s a result of left wing voters who hated Hillary & voted for Jill Stein or Trump or who didn’t vote. That got us Gorshuch, Kavanaugh & Barrett. Hillary talked about the Supreme Court a lot during that campaign. She warned us. The left was clearly unmoved.
So before you blame Democrats who haven’t been pure enough to suit you, maybe look to your left for the reason we are stuck with this dangerous, horrible Court.
One of the best posts on this site.
Without Bill Clinton, there would have been no Barack or Joe. The problem is, those who constantly complain about the lack of progressivism under the elected Democrats, they would rather have lost those races in the unprovable belief that a "True Progressive" could have won and saved the Dems and therefore the Country. It usually ends with some reference to FDR, and the like. It is, as with most LW discussions, absolute gibberish with no basis in history. It is the Susan Sarandon view of politics that only serves Susan Sarandon.
This sort of silliness is the exact reason why no sustainable left wing movement in this country has ever arisen. In a country like the US, where people have an innate distrust of large institutions, the people will be highly skeptical of a "cradle to grave" system that many of those on the Left want. This is a country where people want to succeed, value hard work and economic attainment, not social safety. If safety was our main guidepost, then guns would not be ubiquitous, internet porn would not be free and accessible to all, we would have no video games, rap music and violent movies, and drinking would be outlawed.
Again, the Left often forgets what country they are trying to run. This is what leads to their failure. It is also why on too many occasions, people on the Left find themselves increasingly disdainful of the American people.
You see this same thing on the Right by the way, mainly around social issues.
Thanks for this synopsis. I wish that there was more historical perspective in our opinion articles!
I’m honestly lost with what you are arguing here. Are you saying that “democrats could have done x but didn’t” and that is why we are here? Or are you arguing that we would be here anyway? I just don’t see how democrats could have stopped the overturning of roe without winning more presidential elections (2 of which they won the popular vote in and one of those was decided by said Supreme Court on a questionable doctrine)
You are the kind of person Tim is talking about.
Trump got elected because of a quirk in the electoral college that allowed him to win with 3 million fewer votes than his opponent. That has never happened before. In 2020 he almost won despite losing by 8 million votes.
If you think that's the strategy Democrats should pursue -- "but he fights! who cares about the popular vote" -- then make that case.
Who exactly are the 80,000 persuadables in swing states that care enough about abortion to pull the lever for Hillary -- who, in the debates with Trump, made a big deal that choice was on the ballot, and which Trump also bluntly promised -- instead of Jill Stein or Gary Johnson?
Maybe those Stein voters could have taken the predictions of the Trump threat seriously and voted for Hillary instead. Then Hillary would have won the electoral College. They learned their lesson and after seeing the Trump threat in action, they voted for Biden. Same story in 2000. If the Green voters had voted for Gore in Florida, bush would have lost.
There was nothing to fight about regarding abortion on the Left because it was protected by Roe. Do you think that pushing for a federal law regarding abortion would animate voters for decades? Broadly speaking, though, Democrats do need to improve on messaging and rallying the troops.
Evan:
Don't waste your time. Tom must have gotten lost on the way to Daily Kos. His attitude is just the kind of brain dead, lack of reality thinking that predominates that site. (Why I left).
When they are not arguing over whether those who oppose continued use of the term "Latin X" are more racist or sexist, or, whether AOC should run for POTUS in 2024 or 2028, they spend much of their time yelling at the Democratic Party for not being progressive enough. Yet, when it is pointed out that every time a "true progressive" runs for the Dem Nomination for POTUS they lose, they start yelling and saying the process was rigged because something.....
Its like arguing with my teenager, who is a big Bernie supporter. Ultimately, I just stopped trying to talk to him about it and decided to respond to each of his half-witted diatribes with "will see". That has the benefit of (i) keeping my blood pressure down, and (ii) raising his, which puts a smile on my face :)