I am appalled by Hamas, including their taking of hostages. But what are "human shields" but hostages? Why is it OK to kill one but not the other?
Some people are going on about how it's OK because the Palestinians elected Hamas. So I checked. In 2006 Hamas got 44.45% of the vote; Fatah got 41.43%. Shortly thereafter, violence between Hamas and Fatah resulted in Fatah being thrown out and Hamas taking over. Kinda like what happens under many an authoritarian governments. One can only assume that 41.43% of Gazan voters were at least mildly pissed.
Then came the blockade of Gaza in 2007, which has been going on for 14 years. The socioeconomic effect on Gaza has been profound. It seems plausible that more Gazans support Hamas than once did. But it also seems plausible that citizens of ANY country who suffered a similar blockade because their government was authoritarian, even violent against the blockading country, would develop a sense of unity against the blockader. Even then, before the recent events, the a survey of Gazans who "supported" Hamas was at 68%, whatever "support" means. At that point, 32% were not in support DESPITE the blockade. But that 32% is being bombed and denied electricity and water just as much as the rest.
It is difficult to come up with a comparable situation elsewhere in the world, though treatment of the Kurds comes to mind, or the Armenians in whichever -Stan it is that expelled them recently. At least the Armenians were allowed to leave the country.
I hate the utter hypocrisy of so many of the GOP leaders. I am supposed to support the hypocrisy of Israel "warning" Palestinians to leave when there is no place to go? Has Israel made any attempt to find a place where evacuees could go, with the idea of a return once Hamas is obliterated? Even if it is just women and children? If they have, I'd like to hear of it. But the plight of refugees trying to escape to European countries bodes ill for finding such a place. Egypt doesn't want refugees, much as the US doesn't at the Mexican border. Would the US take women and children from Gaza? Excuse me while I choke.
This is really well put. I am kind of sick of these people who point out the crazies on the left as a strawman for the entire left. If you look at congress democrats itтАЩs literally 256 out of like 261 who donтАЩt absolutely support Israel. Finding people with no power that say stupid shit is easy. FFS, Biden probably gave the most pro-Israel speech in history and these writers are pointing out Harvard student groups. Who cares.
I donтАЩt think one is тАЬbetterтАЭ. IтАЩm saying they are different, and the difference is in the perpetrators. IтАЩm struggling with it, but I know that torturing someone to death in front of your own eyes is a higher order crime that requires an irredeemable very darkness of the soul.
But Israel doesnтАЩt want to relish in watching it. Hamas does. We are splitting hairs here, but I will maintain thereтАЩs a difference. IтАЩd prefer to spend time with the Israelis, by far, if forced to choose. But then, IтАЩm female. Hamas hates women, just because.
I am appalled by Hamas, including their taking of hostages. But what are "human shields" but hostages? Why is it OK to kill one but not the other?
Some people are going on about how it's OK because the Palestinians elected Hamas. So I checked. In 2006 Hamas got 44.45% of the vote; Fatah got 41.43%. Shortly thereafter, violence between Hamas and Fatah resulted in Fatah being thrown out and Hamas taking over. Kinda like what happens under many an authoritarian governments. One can only assume that 41.43% of Gazan voters were at least mildly pissed.
Then came the blockade of Gaza in 2007, which has been going on for 14 years. The socioeconomic effect on Gaza has been profound. It seems plausible that more Gazans support Hamas than once did. But it also seems plausible that citizens of ANY country who suffered a similar blockade because their government was authoritarian, even violent against the blockading country, would develop a sense of unity against the blockader. Even then, before the recent events, the a survey of Gazans who "supported" Hamas was at 68%, whatever "support" means. At that point, 32% were not in support DESPITE the blockade. But that 32% is being bombed and denied electricity and water just as much as the rest.
It is difficult to come up with a comparable situation elsewhere in the world, though treatment of the Kurds comes to mind, or the Armenians in whichever -Stan it is that expelled them recently. At least the Armenians were allowed to leave the country.
I hate the utter hypocrisy of so many of the GOP leaders. I am supposed to support the hypocrisy of Israel "warning" Palestinians to leave when there is no place to go? Has Israel made any attempt to find a place where evacuees could go, with the idea of a return once Hamas is obliterated? Even if it is just women and children? If they have, I'd like to hear of it. But the plight of refugees trying to escape to European countries bodes ill for finding such a place. Egypt doesn't want refugees, much as the US doesn't at the Mexican border. Would the US take women and children from Gaza? Excuse me while I choke.
And assuming the age to vote then was 18 no one under 35 voted for Hamas then.
you are right. My idiot online calculator was stuck in 2021
Powerful medicine your prescribing as all, go from being faux thinkers to actual thinkers.
This is really well put. I am kind of sick of these people who point out the crazies on the left as a strawman for the entire left. If you look at congress democrats itтАЩs literally 256 out of like 261 who donтАЩt absolutely support Israel. Finding people with no power that say stupid shit is easy. FFS, Biden probably gave the most pro-Israel speech in history and these writers are pointing out Harvard student groups. Who cares.
Similar to "Abolish ICE" and "Defund the Police."
Sorry, not the same as Hamas directly torturing children with their own hands.
I donтАЩt think one is тАЬbetterтАЭ. IтАЩm saying they are different, and the difference is in the perpetrators. IтАЩm struggling with it, but I know that torturing someone to death in front of your own eyes is a higher order crime that requires an irredeemable very darkness of the soul.
Yes I worry about that. But Israel is giving warnings ahead of their actions - insufficient, maybe, but a world apart from what they suffered.
I found the most ethical understanding in this piece in the NYT, by an Israeli officer, and in the comments that followed.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/opinion/israel-military-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Terror in uniform, approved all the way down the command structure.
We will have to agree to disagree. IтАЩm still finding my way through all this, but I still maintain thereтАЩs a difference in the level of depravity.
Thanks for the link. It speaks what many feel. May the thought become the voice of the people.
They can have the water back if they release the hostages. Hamas prefers torturing their hostages than giving their babies water.
But Israel doesnтАЩt want to relish in watching it. Hamas does. We are splitting hairs here, but I will maintain thereтАЩs a difference. IтАЩd prefer to spend time with the Israelis, by far, if forced to choose. But then, IтАЩm female. Hamas hates women, just because.
The Republican Chaos caucus is in charge. Student organizations are not.