This has nothing to do with Arafat. Once again, THAT WASNT A STATE EITHER. you can’t impose shit on either Israel or Palestine. That’s the fundamental problem
This has nothing to do with Arafat. Once again, THAT WASNT A STATE EITHER. you can’t impose shit on either Israel or Palestine. That’s the fundamental problem
The failure of the Israeli offer that Clinton brokered had EVERYTHING to do with Arafat and his refusal to accept it. He would have had a state if he had been anything like a statesman.
As for imposing a solution, of course we can, if the United States and its allies are willing to impose steadily increasing pressure on the Israelis and the more powerful Arab states are willing to do the same on the Palestinians. We can't make them LIKE each other, or even cooperate with each other, but we CAN create a situation where two sovereign states live side by side without being able to attack each other, as East and West Germany did from 1949 to the end of the Cold War, and North and South Korea have done since the Korean Armistice in 1953. My ambitions, certainly for my lifetime and quite possibly for yours, too, don't go any farther than that.
Al that wasn’t a state unless your definition is different than every other state in the world. Once again, they wouldn’t be allowed to police their own people. They wouldn’t be allowed to stop the IDF raids on their people’s homes. Maybe that’s what they end up with but no one would call that a “state.”
To your second part. True but there is no political will to do any of what you propose. The US, Europe and the gulf states will never send their soldiers to police the Palestinians. That’s a non starter.
If you are going to use Korea or Germany as examples. Ok when will the US send 100k troops to Israel? That was how we made peace. There is no chance we will ever do that in Israel.
I think that the plan Arafat rejected would have been a start, but it doesn't matter what either of us think about it now: he rejected it, it's dead, and it's not recoverable.
I think that once Hamas is eliminated, there may be political will to force the sides to a two-state solution. From everything I've read, any frustration we feel with the Israelis is as nothing compared to the frustration that the Arab states feel with the Palestinians. Any such plan would require massive investments from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States to stand Palestine up so that it can succeed economically. Once the Palestinians have jobs and a lifestyle that they can enjoy, they might have second -- and third, and fourth -- thoughts about throwing it all away.
Palestine would have to be demilitarized, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have an effective police force and defensive weapons, just nothing that they could throw over the border. In that, they would be no different from Costa Rica or Iceland, which also have no military. They could have defense guarantees from Saudi Arabia and Jordan, but probably wouldn't need them: if most Israelis could just forget that the Palestinians were there, I think that they'd be content to live back to back, walled off from each other with both open to the rest of the world. Transit between Gaza and the West Bank could be handled the way that transit between West Germany and West Berlin was handled from 1949 to the end of the Cold War.
At any rate, once Hamas is eliminated, the Israelis must be forced to roll back the West Bank settlements, which were illegal from the jump and never should have been permitted in the first place, someone besides the Israelis should be responsible for keeping Gaza and the West Bank peaceful, and as I've said, the Gulf should take the lead in rebuilding the West Bank and Gaza and making them economically viable.
Wrong on Arab states. The monarchs hate Hamas. Their people love the Palestinians. The countries closest to Israel are pissed at Israel. Saudi foreign minister called it a genocide last week.
The Palestinians are already demilitarized and look what happened.
I’m glad you have hope. I wish I did but I don’t. Israel doesn’t want a state. Palestinians are getting stepped on everyday and their hate grows which leads to violence. Rinse and repeat.
I just want everybody there to be able to live their lives in peace and prosperity and be able, like people everywhere else, to hope to leave a better life to their children. I think that the only way to accomplish that is to separate them. Maybe not forever, but probably until most of the people still alive on both sides have been gathered to their fathers and mothers, and the people then living can't understand what all the hatred was about.
This has nothing to do with Arafat. Once again, THAT WASNT A STATE EITHER. you can’t impose shit on either Israel or Palestine. That’s the fundamental problem
The failure of the Israeli offer that Clinton brokered had EVERYTHING to do with Arafat and his refusal to accept it. He would have had a state if he had been anything like a statesman.
As for imposing a solution, of course we can, if the United States and its allies are willing to impose steadily increasing pressure on the Israelis and the more powerful Arab states are willing to do the same on the Palestinians. We can't make them LIKE each other, or even cooperate with each other, but we CAN create a situation where two sovereign states live side by side without being able to attack each other, as East and West Germany did from 1949 to the end of the Cold War, and North and South Korea have done since the Korean Armistice in 1953. My ambitions, certainly for my lifetime and quite possibly for yours, too, don't go any farther than that.
Al that wasn’t a state unless your definition is different than every other state in the world. Once again, they wouldn’t be allowed to police their own people. They wouldn’t be allowed to stop the IDF raids on their people’s homes. Maybe that’s what they end up with but no one would call that a “state.”
To your second part. True but there is no political will to do any of what you propose. The US, Europe and the gulf states will never send their soldiers to police the Palestinians. That’s a non starter.
If you are going to use Korea or Germany as examples. Ok when will the US send 100k troops to Israel? That was how we made peace. There is no chance we will ever do that in Israel.
I think that the plan Arafat rejected would have been a start, but it doesn't matter what either of us think about it now: he rejected it, it's dead, and it's not recoverable.
I think that once Hamas is eliminated, there may be political will to force the sides to a two-state solution. From everything I've read, any frustration we feel with the Israelis is as nothing compared to the frustration that the Arab states feel with the Palestinians. Any such plan would require massive investments from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States to stand Palestine up so that it can succeed economically. Once the Palestinians have jobs and a lifestyle that they can enjoy, they might have second -- and third, and fourth -- thoughts about throwing it all away.
Palestine would have to be demilitarized, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have an effective police force and defensive weapons, just nothing that they could throw over the border. In that, they would be no different from Costa Rica or Iceland, which also have no military. They could have defense guarantees from Saudi Arabia and Jordan, but probably wouldn't need them: if most Israelis could just forget that the Palestinians were there, I think that they'd be content to live back to back, walled off from each other with both open to the rest of the world. Transit between Gaza and the West Bank could be handled the way that transit between West Germany and West Berlin was handled from 1949 to the end of the Cold War.
At any rate, once Hamas is eliminated, the Israelis must be forced to roll back the West Bank settlements, which were illegal from the jump and never should have been permitted in the first place, someone besides the Israelis should be responsible for keeping Gaza and the West Bank peaceful, and as I've said, the Gulf should take the lead in rebuilding the West Bank and Gaza and making them economically viable.
Agree on Arafat.
Wrong on Arab states. The monarchs hate Hamas. Their people love the Palestinians. The countries closest to Israel are pissed at Israel. Saudi foreign minister called it a genocide last week.
The Palestinians are already demilitarized and look what happened.
I’m glad you have hope. I wish I did but I don’t. Israel doesn’t want a state. Palestinians are getting stepped on everyday and their hate grows which leads to violence. Rinse and repeat.
I just want everybody there to be able to live their lives in peace and prosperity and be able, like people everywhere else, to hope to leave a better life to their children. I think that the only way to accomplish that is to separate them. Maybe not forever, but probably until most of the people still alive on both sides have been gathered to their fathers and mothers, and the people then living can't understand what all the hatred was about.
Completely agree. I just don’t see a way to get there. Maybe after this tragedy it drives home that a solution has to be found. We can hope I guess