I agree with all of this except about one sentence. "And in this case, Israel with all of its military might is the one who has the upper hand and the ability to make choices that can lead to that end." I think if we learned anything from 20 years in Afghanistan and many years in Iraq (and in Vietnam before that), it takes more than mili…
I agree with all of this except about one sentence. "And in this case, Israel with all of its military might is the one who has the upper hand and the ability to make choices that can lead to that end." I think if we learned anything from 20 years in Afghanistan and many years in Iraq (and in Vietnam before that), it takes more than military might to make a society free and stable and viable. I'm not sure Israel actually has the capability to do that.
Israel can create the conditions in Gaza for a free, stable and viable society. They did so in 2OO5. What did the Gazans do with the withdrawl of the IDF?
They gave control to Hamas, who did nothing to help Gaza be viable. Their hatred of Jews is more important.
I was checking to see if you still believed these claims - but it seems you do.
So just one follow up question: do you believe Hamas had a massive set of tunnels, including into Egypt, for the purpose of smuggling arms, materials and other items?
Which claims? The Gazans gave control to Hamas, who did nothing to help Gaza be viable; and their hatred of Jews is more important? Yes, I stand by those.
I don't know about Hamas' tunnels to Egypt. I'm not sure what that has to do with my two claims.
“Israel can create the conditions in Gaza for a free, stable and viable society. They did so in 2OO5.”
There’s so much wrong in this claim I don’t know where to begin. Arguing with a Zionist is time consuming, because what they take as basic facts is wrong, so you have to go back and educate them (if they are in good faith) before you can even get to the merits of the current claim.
It’s risible to say you don’t know about tunnels.
So, I tried to bypass all that need by simply asking “If Israel HAD given complete control over to the Palestinians in Gaza, why the need to build 500km of tunnels?”
Oh, now I understand why you mentioned an anti-Zionist candidate in 2028. You think I’m a Zionist. That you can’t just tell me where I’m wrong on my claim, you have to peg me ideologically and cast me as a Zionist, which in this context you mean as an insult, reduces my desire to continue to converse with you.
But I did a little searching and found that the conditions in Gaza after the Israelis withdrew their military and removed, in some cases by carrying them out on the chairs they were sitting on while refusing to leave, all Israelis living there, were not those that allowed the Gazans to develop a stable and viable society.
So, I see that. But I sure don’t like your insults, so this is the end of this thread.
Also, I didn’t say I didn’t know about tunnels. I said I didn’t know about tunnels to Egypt.
Israeli leadership is on a position of building towards an outcome that offers that possibility.
Just like Netanyahu and co. walked a path to make it almost impossible to build a path towards a viable two state solution, a new leadership could build towards that.
Carrot and stick, led by people with moral clarity. Empathy towards the others, playing a game that sidelines extremists and offers a path to compromise. it would be extremely difficult and requires commitment in the long run. But it's the only way out.
New leadership? That's up to the Israeli people. Currently, "more Israelis favour Benjamin Netanyahu as prime minister than any other leader, and his Likud party is poised to win the most seats in a new election, according to a poll published on Friday" [https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-netanyahu-likud-israel-election-poll].
I agree with all of this except about one sentence. "And in this case, Israel with all of its military might is the one who has the upper hand and the ability to make choices that can lead to that end." I think if we learned anything from 20 years in Afghanistan and many years in Iraq (and in Vietnam before that), it takes more than military might to make a society free and stable and viable. I'm not sure Israel actually has the capability to do that.
Everything else I agree with.
Israel can create the conditions in Gaza for a free, stable and viable society. They did so in 2OO5. What did the Gazans do with the withdrawl of the IDF?
They gave control to Hamas, who did nothing to help Gaza be viable. Their hatred of Jews is more important.
Sandy, Sandy, Sandy ...
What, what, what?
I was checking to see if you still believed these claims - but it seems you do.
So just one follow up question: do you believe Hamas had a massive set of tunnels, including into Egypt, for the purpose of smuggling arms, materials and other items?
Which claims? The Gazans gave control to Hamas, who did nothing to help Gaza be viable; and their hatred of Jews is more important? Yes, I stand by those.
I don't know about Hamas' tunnels to Egypt. I'm not sure what that has to do with my two claims.
Your claim was:
“Israel can create the conditions in Gaza for a free, stable and viable society. They did so in 2OO5.”
There’s so much wrong in this claim I don’t know where to begin. Arguing with a Zionist is time consuming, because what they take as basic facts is wrong, so you have to go back and educate them (if they are in good faith) before you can even get to the merits of the current claim.
It’s risible to say you don’t know about tunnels.
So, I tried to bypass all that need by simply asking “If Israel HAD given complete control over to the Palestinians in Gaza, why the need to build 500km of tunnels?”
Oh, now I understand why you mentioned an anti-Zionist candidate in 2028. You think I’m a Zionist. That you can’t just tell me where I’m wrong on my claim, you have to peg me ideologically and cast me as a Zionist, which in this context you mean as an insult, reduces my desire to continue to converse with you.
But I did a little searching and found that the conditions in Gaza after the Israelis withdrew their military and removed, in some cases by carrying them out on the chairs they were sitting on while refusing to leave, all Israelis living there, were not those that allowed the Gazans to develop a stable and viable society.
So, I see that. But I sure don’t like your insults, so this is the end of this thread.
Also, I didn’t say I didn’t know about tunnels. I said I didn’t know about tunnels to Egypt.
Israeli leadership is on a position of building towards an outcome that offers that possibility.
Just like Netanyahu and co. walked a path to make it almost impossible to build a path towards a viable two state solution, a new leadership could build towards that.
Carrot and stick, led by people with moral clarity. Empathy towards the others, playing a game that sidelines extremists and offers a path to compromise. it would be extremely difficult and requires commitment in the long run. But it's the only way out.
New leadership? That's up to the Israeli people. Currently, "more Israelis favour Benjamin Netanyahu as prime minister than any other leader, and his Likud party is poised to win the most seats in a new election, according to a poll published on Friday" [https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-netanyahu-likud-israel-election-poll].
Two-state solution? "Prior to the attack, many Israelis supported this path to peace with the Palestinians. Now, 65% oppose it, with nearly half of this shift occurring directly as a result of October 7, reflecting a deepening skepticism about the feasibility of such a plan amid ongoing terrorism and violence emanating from Gaza" [https://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2024/08/02/polling_shows_shift_in_israeli_opinions_of_gaza_and_two-state_solution_1048994.html].
The only way out is for the Gazans to accept Israel's right to exist. Without that, there can be no two-state solution.