Biden needs to have a plan to counter Trump's lies himself, especially but not only on the elections. For example, some version of "Come on Donald, everyone knows you lost. Why can't you admit the obvious truth, and what does that say about you? And BTW you lost because your administration was a mess".
Biden needs to have a plan to counter Trump's lies himself, especially but not only on the elections. For example, some version of "Come on Donald, everyone knows you lost. Why can't you admit the obvious truth, and what does that say about you? And BTW you lost because your administration was a mess".
Or with more edge, "Every lawsuit lost, Fox needed to pay $700M+, and Newsmax needed to run disclaimers to avoid paying the same. Why do you still lie to people?"
I do agree about Jonathan Swan and Chris Wallace, but the benefit of Biden countering Trump himself is it avoids seeming that Biden is feeble and needs CNN to help to make his points for him. The moderators can still push back too, but Biden needs to have a plan (and I assume he does)
Bad Faith and Good Faith are two different languages. They don't intersect or interact.
Say, Jake Tapper brings up the Jan 6 Capitol poop-smearing mob-riot and Donald says, as he did to Time magazine, "It was Nancy's fault." There is nothing for the moderator or the other debater to respond to. Bad Faith and outright lies and fabrications and stories and fantasies and foundational falsehoods can produce an entertainment event. But it's not a debate!
Sadly, the mass media buys into the "shared reality" of this fraud. Like the crowd watching the emperor walk down the street naked, none of them has the balls to tell the truth. Donald talks like a neurotic 6 year old and they treat him as legit!
The truth is that he doesn't want the job. He just wants the money! See Roy Cohn. See Vlad Putin in his $ Billion palace. See Dirty Tricks Roger Stone. See traitor Paul Manafort. See scam artist Steve Bannon. Trump World is just a money scam!
I don’t know; I think Biden should ignore everything Trump says, and use his time to lay out his policy plans. If Biden spends all his time responding to Trump’s lies, that means Trump is in charge. Indifference would drive Trump nuts (well, more nuts) because he’s itching for a fight, like always.
I think you are spot on about Biden needing to take point because it will look like CNN is running interference if they do it. I hope that Tapper and Bash have well formulated questions that preface their question with a litany of what went down in 2020. I get why JVL is saying what he is, but this is not a Trump vs. reality debate as much as we all want it to be, it is Trump v. Biden.
I've been entertaining a dark thought for these past few days. I think Trump would stand to gain immensely if he swallowed hard and said that Biden won without equivocating or fussing.
I don't know that it's in him to do it, of course, but staring down the barrels of criminal investigations can do wonders to focus the mind.
I wonder if his debate prep team sees the same opportunity that I do. The more he looks normal on TV, the better he will do with right-leaners that want permission to vote for him and cast us all into darkness. Trump is already ahead, if within the range of a normal polling error like we see most years. He could step out into a definitive lead tonight if he just says the words and makes them sound meaningful. He can go back to his standard horseshit at the next rally afterward.
I agree that I don't think he'll do it. He might half-ass it, but he can't get himself to where he needs to be to say that. But, I don't think MAGA writ large reacts like that. They believe his orange ass.
They believe him, unless he says something they really don't want to hear. Then they'll decide it wasn't really Trump -- he was temporarily replaced by a digital double controlled by the deep state. But their heads would still explode until they've taken the time to rationalize it away with another crackpot conspiracy.
This is an interesting thought for sure. I have to wonder how much that would wound him with MAGA. I think it would depend on what happens after the debate. Does he go back to the lie? Does he continue to tell the sober truth? What part of the lie could he still tell while being seen as telling the truth?
If he were to go back to the same old song and dance after the debate, I think that would hurt him immensely. It would cast everything else he said during the debate as suspect. Most people would not accept that just that part was a lie after so many years of trying to sell the big lie.
I feel like we only scratched the surface of what this would mean if it were to happen, it would be such a surprising event! There have to me a few more ways this could go if Trump were to do something like that. Its also kinda so out there, that it feels possible if that makes sense.
His people already understand that there's a Public Trump and a My Trump. They are inoculated against the truth about him and his very stable genius. Also, where is a true believer going to go if they don't vote for Trump?
I agree that admitting he lost would be ... an interesting choice. But Biden could just pivot to "why did you spend 3.5 years lying then?" and "look how many people's lives got ruined by J6 trials because of you", etc..
I think that kind of chaos serves him, a la throwing more shit into the air. Also, he only really needs the sound bite. Peggy Noonan and Ross Douthat would be swept off their feet.
Agree. It's a debate. The debaters are supposed to bring the receipts (have them in their heads since they cannot have notes at the podium), not the moderators.
I wish Biden's team included Medhi Hasan, author of "Win Every Argument: The Art of Debating, Persuading, and Public Speaking" where he outlines all of the rhetorical techniques in debate. My favorite was how to respond to a Gish Galloper like Trump. A Gish Gallop, according to the Urban Dictionary, is a speaking method that involves "spewing so much bullshit in such a short span that your opponent can't address let alone counter all of it." Hasan outlines a three-step process for responding: 1. Pick your battle - zero in on the most ridiculous claim, 2. Don't budge - which is what Swan did, and 3. Call them out - point out to the audience exactly what your opponent is doing.
#3 is my favorite. Biden should be practicing this: When Trump lies, turn your face to the camera, cock your head and furrow your brow a little and as if to say "Wha???". That puts you and the audience together as you deftly point out what he's doing.
This is what Chris Christie did to Marco Rubio. He spoke to the audience about Marco's tactic - "the drive-by shot at the beginning with incomplete and incorrect information, and then the memorized 25-second speech that is exactly what his advisors gave him." A few beats later, Rubio starts to deliver the 25-second speech and Christie speaks into the mic, facing the camera and says, "There it is, there is it everybody." Christie is known as a terrific debater. That's because he was a practicing lawyer for 10 years.
The solution is Biden needs to be a better debater. CNN can do the fact-checking immediately after the debate, not during.
Agreed 💯, Hugh! I can’t imagine that the Biden debate team isn’t *fully* prepared to have Biden hammer Trump about his 2020 election lies, and much else that Trump regularly lies about.
They’re smart people who know that Joe has a unique opportunity here to change the (stalled) dynamics of this race, and I’d be *hugely* surprised if they don’t have well-planned zingers ready!
Biden needs to have a plan to counter Trump's lies himself, especially but not only on the elections. For example, some version of "Come on Donald, everyone knows you lost. Why can't you admit the obvious truth, and what does that say about you? And BTW you lost because your administration was a mess".
Or with more edge, "Every lawsuit lost, Fox needed to pay $700M+, and Newsmax needed to run disclaimers to avoid paying the same. Why do you still lie to people?"
I do agree about Jonathan Swan and Chris Wallace, but the benefit of Biden countering Trump himself is it avoids seeming that Biden is feeble and needs CNN to help to make his points for him. The moderators can still push back too, but Biden needs to have a plan (and I assume he does)
Bad Faith and Good Faith are two different languages. They don't intersect or interact.
Say, Jake Tapper brings up the Jan 6 Capitol poop-smearing mob-riot and Donald says, as he did to Time magazine, "It was Nancy's fault." There is nothing for the moderator or the other debater to respond to. Bad Faith and outright lies and fabrications and stories and fantasies and foundational falsehoods can produce an entertainment event. But it's not a debate!
Sadly, the mass media buys into the "shared reality" of this fraud. Like the crowd watching the emperor walk down the street naked, none of them has the balls to tell the truth. Donald talks like a neurotic 6 year old and they treat him as legit!
The truth is that he doesn't want the job. He just wants the money! See Roy Cohn. See Vlad Putin in his $ Billion palace. See Dirty Tricks Roger Stone. See traitor Paul Manafort. See scam artist Steve Bannon. Trump World is just a money scam!
I don’t know; I think Biden should ignore everything Trump says, and use his time to lay out his policy plans. If Biden spends all his time responding to Trump’s lies, that means Trump is in charge. Indifference would drive Trump nuts (well, more nuts) because he’s itching for a fight, like always.
I think you are spot on about Biden needing to take point because it will look like CNN is running interference if they do it. I hope that Tapper and Bash have well formulated questions that preface their question with a litany of what went down in 2020. I get why JVL is saying what he is, but this is not a Trump vs. reality debate as much as we all want it to be, it is Trump v. Biden.
Agree, and Biden has to be the champion of reality and show how his opponent is deluded.
I like that as a mindset for Biden, be the champion for reality. That is a nice and simple picture.
I've been entertaining a dark thought for these past few days. I think Trump would stand to gain immensely if he swallowed hard and said that Biden won without equivocating or fussing.
I don't know that it's in him to do it, of course, but staring down the barrels of criminal investigations can do wonders to focus the mind.
I wonder if his debate prep team sees the same opportunity that I do. The more he looks normal on TV, the better he will do with right-leaners that want permission to vote for him and cast us all into darkness. Trump is already ahead, if within the range of a normal polling error like we see most years. He could step out into a definitive lead tonight if he just says the words and makes them sound meaningful. He can go back to his standard horseshit at the next rally afterward.
If Trump actually did that (which he won't), we would hear the sound of tens of millions of MAGA cultist heads exploding simultaneously.
I agree that I don't think he'll do it. He might half-ass it, but he can't get himself to where he needs to be to say that. But, I don't think MAGA writ large reacts like that. They believe his orange ass.
They believe him, unless he says something they really don't want to hear. Then they'll decide it wasn't really Trump -- he was temporarily replaced by a digital double controlled by the deep state. But their heads would still explode until they've taken the time to rationalize it away with another crackpot conspiracy.
This is an interesting thought for sure. I have to wonder how much that would wound him with MAGA. I think it would depend on what happens after the debate. Does he go back to the lie? Does he continue to tell the sober truth? What part of the lie could he still tell while being seen as telling the truth?
If he were to go back to the same old song and dance after the debate, I think that would hurt him immensely. It would cast everything else he said during the debate as suspect. Most people would not accept that just that part was a lie after so many years of trying to sell the big lie.
I feel like we only scratched the surface of what this would mean if it were to happen, it would be such a surprising event! There have to me a few more ways this could go if Trump were to do something like that. Its also kinda so out there, that it feels possible if that makes sense.
His people already understand that there's a Public Trump and a My Trump. They are inoculated against the truth about him and his very stable genius. Also, where is a true believer going to go if they don't vote for Trump?
I agree that admitting he lost would be ... an interesting choice. But Biden could just pivot to "why did you spend 3.5 years lying then?" and "look how many people's lives got ruined by J6 trials because of you", etc..
I think that kind of chaos serves him, a la throwing more shit into the air. Also, he only really needs the sound bite. Peggy Noonan and Ross Douthat would be swept off their feet.
Agree. It's a debate. The debaters are supposed to bring the receipts (have them in their heads since they cannot have notes at the podium), not the moderators.
I wish Biden's team included Medhi Hasan, author of "Win Every Argument: The Art of Debating, Persuading, and Public Speaking" where he outlines all of the rhetorical techniques in debate. My favorite was how to respond to a Gish Galloper like Trump. A Gish Gallop, according to the Urban Dictionary, is a speaking method that involves "spewing so much bullshit in such a short span that your opponent can't address let alone counter all of it." Hasan outlines a three-step process for responding: 1. Pick your battle - zero in on the most ridiculous claim, 2. Don't budge - which is what Swan did, and 3. Call them out - point out to the audience exactly what your opponent is doing.
#3 is my favorite. Biden should be practicing this: When Trump lies, turn your face to the camera, cock your head and furrow your brow a little and as if to say "Wha???". That puts you and the audience together as you deftly point out what he's doing.
This is what Chris Christie did to Marco Rubio. He spoke to the audience about Marco's tactic - "the drive-by shot at the beginning with incomplete and incorrect information, and then the memorized 25-second speech that is exactly what his advisors gave him." A few beats later, Rubio starts to deliver the 25-second speech and Christie speaks into the mic, facing the camera and says, "There it is, there is it everybody." Christie is known as a terrific debater. That's because he was a practicing lawyer for 10 years.
The solution is Biden needs to be a better debater. CNN can do the fact-checking immediately after the debate, not during.
Agreed 💯, Hugh! I can’t imagine that the Biden debate team isn’t *fully* prepared to have Biden hammer Trump about his 2020 election lies, and much else that Trump regularly lies about.
They’re smart people who know that Joe has a unique opportunity here to change the (stalled) dynamics of this race, and I’d be *hugely* surprised if they don’t have well-planned zingers ready!
Hugh is right. Brilliant, let Biden do
It - also because I think Biden needsto make light and laugh at everything HE says. (HE will hate that!)