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Scott Gaynor's avatar

"the propaganda baggae" wrt to socialism = knowledge of history.

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MillennialExistential's avatar

Cherry picked history at best. US history is woefully inadequate at covering the events of the 20th century.

We've basically excised anything in our history that could make capitalism look bad and socialism look good. We don't talk about how instrumental socialists were to the civil rights and suffragette movements. We don't discuss the very real cost of colonialism, how the US sent our military to violently prop up dictators in South America at the behest of corporations. We don't talk about the fact that US business leaders once planned a fascist coup. We barely discuss the history of the labor movement and worker exploitation in this country. We don't talk about how socialists were historically oppressed by the government here and abroad, or how many of the figures we revere in our history books were socialists or at least closely linked with them (Hellen Keller, George Orwell, Albert Einstein, MLK, the list goes on).

History is written by the victor, and we've excised a lot of things that make the US look bad. Don't get me wrong, I'm no tankie. I'm not going to defend the USSR or Maoist China, they did unequivocally horrible things, but they aren't the sum total of the socialist movement. It would be like judging Christians entirely on the pogroms and crusades.

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Scott Gaynor's avatar

Ah, the old тАЬsocialism wasnтАЩt done properly by the communistsтАЭ argument. A classic and still astoundingly terrible as the day it was first uttered.

Of course what is always left out is the rest of the sentiment:

тАЬ*I* know what is best and how it should be implemented. You will agree because if you donтАЩt IтАЩll use the power of the state to make you see the error of your ways.тАЭ

But, yesтАжcompletely different than communism.

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MillennialExistential's avatar

Cool strawman you got there, but I'm not letting you put words in my mouth.

You're clearly unfamiliar with the history of anti-statist socialism, anarchism, and the socialist involvement in pro-democracy and civil rights movements. You should consider reading more about them. I'm not going to try to convince you that socialism is some perfect system, but trotting out old canards that are ignorant of historical realities isn't particularly helpful.

Also, last time I checked, it was the conservatives and capitalists wielding the boot of the state in this country.

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Scott Gaynor's avatar

Yes, letтАЩs be like the anarchists and early/mid 20th century socialists (Lenin, Mao).

HowтАЩd Acapulco work out for yтАЩall?

But since you are all about me being тАЬignorant of historical realities,тАЭ please, name ONE - just one - country where the anarchist/socialists took control and it worked out great (over at least a 50 year period). And no, Sweden does not fall into that category.

Go ahead. WeтАЩll wait.

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MillennialExistential's avatar

Oh come on. 250 years ago you wouldn't find any examples of a long lived society that treated women as equals or had lasted without slavery.

Even the idea of democracy was considered a historical failure by many. The idea that we need "successful" past models to design future ones would have had us stuck in feudalism for an eternity.

And frankly, there have been examples. Anarchist Spain, Rojava, the Mondragon Cooperative, etc. None of them perfect (because no system with humans will ever be) but useful references to help us plan a better way.

Maybe you think capitalism is fine and our society is doing just great and nothing is broken, but I don't think the majority agree with that. Maybe you think my ideas are nonsense that will end terribly. But the system clearly isn't working for the good of everyone, and at least I'm willing to take a stand and make the case for something better. I haven't seen you do that.

So what's your alternative? Do nothing while the rich continue to get richer and the poor die needlessly? Tweak a few regulations and hope the system corrects itself? Roll back the clock to feudal autocracy like the alt-right wants?

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Scott Gaynor's avatar

I thought you were the history guru and I knew nothing, yet you have no examples of how great socialist states are? As I knew. Because I know historyтАж

But sure, continue to believe socialism is awesome.

What a joke.

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Al Brown's avatar

There's nothing wrong with spinning socialist or anarchist theories, as long as (1.) their disinformation does not go without response , e.g., taking "Anarchist Spain" as a model, if we're talking about the 1930s, has to address its anti-Catholic pogroms and mass executions of priests and religious, either to endorse or condemn, and not to be passed over in silence, and (2.) they are denied access to tools of coercion, to make sure that their theories can't circumvent the safeguards of democratic debate and the judgement of voters.

As long as that's the case, I have no problem with confronting them in the Marketplace of Ideas, where their tendency to dismiss arguments against their positions as uninformed or misguided rather than answering them can only end up supporting the cause of freedom.

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