It isn't tiresome at all, because it is happening. The right has become an illiberal menace to our democracy. We cannot ignore the illiberalism coming from the left. Have we not learned the lessons of the failed Weimar Republic?
It isn't tiresome at all, because it is happening. The right has become an illiberal menace to our democracy. We cannot ignore the illiberalism coming from the left. Have we not learned the lessons of the failed Weimar Republic?
The illiberalism from the right is coming from those who hold real power and they are a majority in the House. They are currently holding this country hostage to their nihilism. The illiberal left is a bunch of college kids and two or three House members with exactly zero power to effect policy. There is no comparison at all to the power of the left during the Weimar Republic. That left precipitated the hard right take over of Germany. That's not even close to what's happened in the US.
I think maybe the point being made here is that illiberal, non-conservative kooks took over the GOP because they were dismissed as a small faction that wasn't representative of the whole party, and while everyone was being dismissive of them, they vacuumed up power by appealing to base instincts among an ~ 40% of people who labeled themselves as conservative. If no one pays attention to, warns about, or takes seriously a movement of a similar type on the left, then there is a less than zero chance that the left will eventually find itself in a similar state. There IS a (currently) minority on the left that is populist, shallow, performative, and illiberal, and there are signs that these ideas are making inroads among younger voters. A lot of this does occur on college campuses, and it has been for years. And as with the surrender of the real conservatism in the GOP, if no one centrist pushes back on it, it will take over and grow. Pointing out that "most people" on campuses aren't "all that illiberal" isn't particularly relevant: yes, maybe there are a bunch of critical thinkers and centrists and still-liberal kids on campuses: but they aren't pushing back very hard against the folks who are having pro-terrorist rallies and hiding behind terms like "anti-Zionist" and "anti-colonialist" when what they really are doing is saying they're pro-terrorism and for the destruction of Israel. I don't think that anyone can point this out too much. If there are so many good kids with great critical thinking skills on campuses and among the liberals, then they would be plainly visible somewhere else besides, and not need defending in, the comments of section of a Bulwark article.
"If there are so many good kids with great critical thinking skills on campuses and among the liberals, then they would be plainly visible somewhere else besides"
Not sure this follows.
First, it doesn't seem like an issue that is getting broad coverage that is reaching into students' lives. My son is on a campus with 50K students and hasn't heard about or run across any pro-terrorist rallies. They might be there, but even if he was so inclined, there isn't an - anti-terrorist, both sides have blame and a point - organization to join and rally around.
Second, it is by no means a given that leftist students being assinine is a major threat to Democrats or democracy. Conceivable, sure, but great critical thinking skills can come to a different conclusion, and certainly can conclude that spending time and energy rallying on campus against such things isn't worth the effort and potential cost.
I think a major difference between the left and the right when it comes to the fringe capturing the party is that for the right, a big chunk of their base was already primed and ready for the dog whistles to become louder, and for an embrace of nativism. I don't see that on the left (in reverse). The broader left isn't going to embrace Hamas or champion Venezuelan economics.
I see what you're saying, and I respectfully disagree precisely because of my experience with conservatives, who I also believed were extremely unlikely to embrace isolationism and Russia-humping and a thrice-married rapist who holds Bibles upside down, and yet here we are. I think you are likely a thinking person, and so you assume that other people who stand with you on your side of the aisle are there because they are thinkers, too. Many conservatives who had principles believed that those among them, on their side of the aisle, were there because of their principles, and so dismissed the fringe until it was a tidal wave.
It is truly not every day that I am called naive! With the preamble that you make good points and I'm not here to poke at you with this tidbit: everyone who knows me and therefore typically refers to me as a tyrannical skeptic-bitch found this comment immensely fun.
Got to agree to disagree on this one. On the right it was an obvious sickness that was flamed and used for decades. Those who are sane on the right can stand around and think Trump is an anomaly but they are just ducking their own guilt (except Stewart Stevens.). There is discussion about how the far left wonтАЩt come out to vote for Biden and itтАЩs because the Dems arenтАЩt giving them the red meat that the Republicans fed the Jerry Faldwells and Pat Robertsons for decades.
I don't know that TikTok and other forms of social media aren't the driving force for this movement, and not the campuses themselves. Anecdotal evidence suggest it's social media. That I do take very seriously.
I think that's right. Insofar as this is a problem it is probably being driven more by Russian and other trolls on TikTok, Instagram, etc. Than by liberal professors on campus.
I think it's likely a combination of both social media and some influence from college campus / peer pressure. For the record, while TikTok has a ton of it, it's also extremely prevalent on Instagram. Even Linkendln has it's fair share which I don't think is a whole bunch of Gen Z's.
There's definitely something getting stirred up on TikTok, I've noticed, especially the last few days. Lots of angry bots in the comments and lots of RW media chasing down students asking if they would behead babies. It's horrible.
Yes it can. It's happens routinely. I was on campus during the Viet Nam/draft protests when that movement was a powerful nationwide campus phenomenon. I don't see anything close to that when it comes to anti Israeli protests as it currently manifests. That could very well change if the war with Hamas expands and the US has to start military operations in support of Israel. Right now, I'm just relieved that Old Joe is doing everything he can to prevent that from happening.
I too have been wondering about the relative silence from never trumpers on the influence of the Federalist Society and the Heritage Foundation. It's not just the Bulwark either.
Absolutely agree that we cannot ignore the illiberalism coming from the left. And I have to remind myself that in era of social media, 8 years is a long time and things could have changed since I retired. My point was more that the RW suspicion of and hostility to higher ed. institutions is not consistent with the reality of these places and the people who work and study there. Colleges and universities reflect our society just as much as they shape it.
A few college students hardly compares to the complete takeover of one party in a two party system. It's the hyper focus on a small number of powerless people that feels unfair.
"The real unfairness isn't the atrocities, it is the people who are spoken to in unkind ways from supporting the atrocities." is a brutally careless nihilist point of view, Anne.
It's tiresome, not because we don't need to hear it, It's tiresome because people are painting all students, and all of the left and all the Democrats with the same brush. As a Biden voter, I take offense at the idea that I have a left problem. I support Israel and the attack by Hamas devastated me.
Saying that I somehow have control over or am responsible for what democratic socialists students say is absurd.
It isn't tiresome at all, because it is happening. The right has become an illiberal menace to our democracy. We cannot ignore the illiberalism coming from the left. Have we not learned the lessons of the failed Weimar Republic?
The illiberalism from the right is coming from those who hold real power and they are a majority in the House. They are currently holding this country hostage to their nihilism. The illiberal left is a bunch of college kids and two or three House members with exactly zero power to effect policy. There is no comparison at all to the power of the left during the Weimar Republic. That left precipitated the hard right take over of Germany. That's not even close to what's happened in the US.
I think maybe the point being made here is that illiberal, non-conservative kooks took over the GOP because they were dismissed as a small faction that wasn't representative of the whole party, and while everyone was being dismissive of them, they vacuumed up power by appealing to base instincts among an ~ 40% of people who labeled themselves as conservative. If no one pays attention to, warns about, or takes seriously a movement of a similar type on the left, then there is a less than zero chance that the left will eventually find itself in a similar state. There IS a (currently) minority on the left that is populist, shallow, performative, and illiberal, and there are signs that these ideas are making inroads among younger voters. A lot of this does occur on college campuses, and it has been for years. And as with the surrender of the real conservatism in the GOP, if no one centrist pushes back on it, it will take over and grow. Pointing out that "most people" on campuses aren't "all that illiberal" isn't particularly relevant: yes, maybe there are a bunch of critical thinkers and centrists and still-liberal kids on campuses: but they aren't pushing back very hard against the folks who are having pro-terrorist rallies and hiding behind terms like "anti-Zionist" and "anti-colonialist" when what they really are doing is saying they're pro-terrorism and for the destruction of Israel. I don't think that anyone can point this out too much. If there are so many good kids with great critical thinking skills on campuses and among the liberals, then they would be plainly visible somewhere else besides, and not need defending in, the comments of section of a Bulwark article.
"If there are so many good kids with great critical thinking skills on campuses and among the liberals, then they would be plainly visible somewhere else besides"
Not sure this follows.
First, it doesn't seem like an issue that is getting broad coverage that is reaching into students' lives. My son is on a campus with 50K students and hasn't heard about or run across any pro-terrorist rallies. They might be there, but even if he was so inclined, there isn't an - anti-terrorist, both sides have blame and a point - organization to join and rally around.
Second, it is by no means a given that leftist students being assinine is a major threat to Democrats or democracy. Conceivable, sure, but great critical thinking skills can come to a different conclusion, and certainly can conclude that spending time and energy rallying on campus against such things isn't worth the effort and potential cost.
I think a major difference between the left and the right when it comes to the fringe capturing the party is that for the right, a big chunk of their base was already primed and ready for the dog whistles to become louder, and for an embrace of nativism. I don't see that on the left (in reverse). The broader left isn't going to embrace Hamas or champion Venezuelan economics.
I see what you're saying, and I respectfully disagree precisely because of my experience with conservatives, who I also believed were extremely unlikely to embrace isolationism and Russia-humping and a thrice-married rapist who holds Bibles upside down, and yet here we are. I think you are likely a thinking person, and so you assume that other people who stand with you on your side of the aisle are there because they are thinkers, too. Many conservatives who had principles believed that those among them, on their side of the aisle, were there because of their principles, and so dismissed the fringe until it was a tidal wave.
It is truly not every day that I am called naive! With the preamble that you make good points and I'm not here to poke at you with this tidbit: everyone who knows me and therefore typically refers to me as a tyrannical skeptic-bitch found this comment immensely fun.
Got to agree to disagree on this one. On the right it was an obvious sickness that was flamed and used for decades. Those who are sane on the right can stand around and think Trump is an anomaly but they are just ducking their own guilt (except Stewart Stevens.). There is discussion about how the far left wonтАЩt come out to vote for Biden and itтАЩs because the Dems arenтАЩt giving them the red meat that the Republicans fed the Jerry Faldwells and Pat Robertsons for decades.
I don't know that TikTok and other forms of social media aren't the driving force for this movement, and not the campuses themselves. Anecdotal evidence suggest it's social media. That I do take very seriously.
I think that's right. Insofar as this is a problem it is probably being driven more by Russian and other trolls on TikTok, Instagram, etc. Than by liberal professors on campus.
I think it's likely a combination of both social media and some influence from college campus / peer pressure. For the record, while TikTok has a ton of it, it's also extremely prevalent on Instagram. Even Linkendln has it's fair share which I don't think is a whole bunch of Gen Z's.
There's definitely something getting stirred up on TikTok, I've noticed, especially the last few days. Lots of angry bots in the comments and lots of RW media chasing down students asking if they would behead babies. It's horrible.
Thank you. Best comment of the day, and completely aligned with what is my understanding of the BulwarkтАЩs mission.
always the other party, and not your own. May I remind you that Gen Z resentment can translate into 2024 apathy at the polls.
Yes it can. It's happens routinely. I was on campus during the Viet Nam/draft protests when that movement was a powerful nationwide campus phenomenon. I don't see anything close to that when it comes to anti Israeli protests as it currently manifests. That could very well change if the war with Hamas expands and the US has to start military operations in support of Israel. Right now, I'm just relieved that Old Joe is doing everything he can to prevent that from happening.
And we all need to pull up our socks and do what we can to prevent that. I'm encouraged by your efforts.
Trump gets in in 2024 then I guess the young will get a real education.
I too have been wondering about the relative silence from never trumpers on the influence of the Federalist Society and the Heritage Foundation. It's not just the Bulwark either.
Absolutely agree that we cannot ignore the illiberalism coming from the left. And I have to remind myself that in era of social media, 8 years is a long time and things could have changed since I retired. My point was more that the RW suspicion of and hostility to higher ed. institutions is not consistent with the reality of these places and the people who work and study there. Colleges and universities reflect our society just as much as they shape it.
A few college students hardly compares to the complete takeover of one party in a two party system. It's the hyper focus on a small number of powerless people that feels unfair.
Do you feel that 260 former staffers from Elizabeth Warren's campaign is a few? https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/20/warren-staffers-ceasefire-israel-hamas-war-00122674
"The real unfairness isn't the atrocities, it is the people who are spoken to in unkind ways from supporting the atrocities." is a brutally careless nihilist point of view, Anne.
It's tiresome, not because we don't need to hear it, It's tiresome because people are painting all students, and all of the left and all the Democrats with the same brush. As a Biden voter, I take offense at the idea that I have a left problem. I support Israel and the attack by Hamas devastated me.
Saying that I somehow have control over or am responsible for what democratic socialists students say is absurd.