Mehdi Hasan joins Tim Miller to unpack his shocking Jubilee debate experience, where he faced off against 20 young members of the far right—some whom were openly fascist—and was left speechless.
Mehdi, I completely agree with you in your statement of "the masks are off" now, but don't you think this is like a cancer that has metastasized and spread, ie dramatically increased among people, Trump super-charging it?
I am 48 years old and I am so confused, baffled and heartbroken, because in my very self, I still feel like I'm 10 years old and living in suburban CT in the 80's. It felt like such a more kum-ba-yah time. As a White person, with parents who taught me right from wrong, I feel that I have inhabited a very different world for such a long time. I remember one of my brothers once saying something racially off-color on a family car ride, and my parents both swiftly putting a stop to it. And it never happened again.
All these years later, I feel so disoriented. Yes, I knew racism existed, but it was widely viewed as wrong, low-class, and beyond the pale of human decency, at least in the world I not only grew up in but spent most of my adult years in as well. I know it was easy for me as a White child in comfortable suburban New England to believe in my very bones, that, with all of America's sins, we were trending in a better direction thanks to what was called progress. Now, I have no idea how to think or feel. Was it really there the whole time, this AMOUNT of hateful ugly?
I guess if I grew up in red Alabama, I wouldn't be as surprised? I just don't know what to think anymore.
Mehdi Hassan is brilliant and brave to do this debate. He is masterful in how he articulates examples and facts and dismantles those in front of him who do not have depth in the subjects that they claim to defend. They could not defend quite a few arguments, which is disappointing if they claim to be educated. Bias underscored by racism is never logical.
There was a lot of talk about de-radicalization. Germany and the Allies did not de-radicalize Nazis, they took over the education system and educated a new generation. The adults whether they be Nazis or other radical groups for the most part cannot be de-radicalized. You need the kids to learn something new. To do that you need to not trash the education system which is what trump is doing. The book "They thought they were Free" interviews Nazis after WWII and most (small sample size) remember the Nazi era fondly. Only one interviewee seemed to grasp what the Nazis had done.
So we protest weekly and out of hundreds of pro immigrant drivers honking - but there are the handful of angry white men in trucks screaming anti immigrant expletives at us. It’s so confusing why they embrace their hatred for immigrants so deeply? Does it make sense to push the message that America is and Americans are made up of all ethnicities all religions?. To push against the Nazi position? We are on the hunt for effective messaging?
Tim, your Mehdi fanboy shtick was a bit over the top here. Putting a skilled debater like Hasan up against these Jubilee MAGAtards was like putting LeBron up against 20 high school players. Mehdi unsurprisingly wiped the floor with them. Duh. Would you backslap LeBron after he dunked on each highs school player?
I was wondering whether those kids were intentionally being outrageous in making their extreme arguments, in an attempt to throw off Mehdi, esp Connor. Some of it almost seemed like a calculated pose, not the proffering of good faith arguments. Almost like what you see in the debating clubs in Oxford or Cambridge. But whatever was going on, Mehdi was superb. I have no intention of following their social media to find out if my hypothesis is correct. You tell me!! :)
Season 7 episode 12 “All About Mormons” on “South Park” they say Native Americans were white and came from Israel. Mehdi Hassan was wrong. Fact check your guests Tim, you’re from CO and should know this.
First, re the young gentleman who, seemingly quite unashamedly and with a twinkle in his eye, conceded to Mehdi that, essentially, his beliefs fairly qualified him for the labels 'white supremacist'; fascist; anti-semite and neo-Nazi ... "I haven't any problem with it." Well, apparently, as you report, he does have a problem with it...NOW. He's been fired from whatever job he held before his employer was apprised of his Jubilee performance. No doubt the young man regards himself yet another victim of inequitable woke cancel culture. I've some gratuitous but reasonable counsel to offer him... Son, you weren't fired for your views. You were likely fired for stupidity. And, in your employer's realistic view [call it an unwelcome epiphany], an utter lack of mature judgement in presenting said employer with a 'problem' he didn't hire you to create.
Second take - and a warning I'm about to expropriate the term 'replacement' from the fringe right and their context for it. What is most alarming about the ethos of these terminally on-line, algorithmically poisoned youngsters is that, given their ages, they will inherit the earth. Simply put and actuarial realities being what they are - they will inevitably REPLACE US. Ponder the implications for American politics; culture; the economy; education... and democracy. It's horrifying to contemplate.
"The problem" all comes down to the antisocial media. And there is nothing that can be done about it. Only when audiences THEMSELVES become selective about what they allow into their brains and start tuning out and stop following influencers and content creators will their brains stop being damaged and their moral sense perverted. The antisocial media platforms are perverted from their business model, all the way through to how they are used by consumers and exploited by marketers. We get our knickers in a bunch over government spies using social media and the influence of propaganda in China but blithely allow corporations to spy on us, recombine and resell our online DNA as they wish, and propagandize to their hearts content.
As Tim noted, when we were teenage Republicans (admittedly a generation apart!) it was damn difficult to find white supremacist, neo-Nazi or Communist Party material. My Republican parents had nothing to do with John Birchers who were seen as fringe and extremist. Now the Republican Party IS the John Birch Society. This was all made possible by the interest and especially the antisocial media.
There is no way that people can be de-radicalized unless they WANT to be de-radicalized. It is an addiction and like all other addictions can only be overcome by an internal commitment to change.
Certainly true, and there is also a left wing part of the media ecosystem making their piles of money. The difference is that the antisocial media platforms and the dark web are actually addictive to users in ways regular media cannot be.
In scale and influence, the left wing of the media ecosystem is a fraction of what the right-wing one is....that is a big reason why Dems lost the election, according to experts I've read (not my opinion).
Regarding the discussion on whether or not to engage with or platform far-right influencers: one thing you left out - when Pete Buttigieg goes on Fox or the like, when Mehdi uses his skills at a Jubilee debate, one positive consequence is that it embodies leadership that MANY are desperate to see…it reorients and possibly inspires the hearts and minds of future good faith actors. Yeah, I am also torn on the argument, but I’M a normie on the outside looking in, looking for hope. These courageous actions of resistance and education (eg Pete, Mehdi) give me hope.
I should say that’s why I’m in the comments section at all-my heart and mind have hope because of the incredible work and passion of clever, dedicated people in this dire landscape. Thanks to you people at The Bulwark, Pod Saves America n World, Heather Cox Richardson, Zeteo, Kinzinger, Jon Stewart, Colbert, Raging Moderates.
I watched the Tim and JVL talking about and showing a couple of clips from the Jubilee-then I found the actual entire video and watched it--disturbing--but I would like to hear what anyone's take was on the guy who was so well spoken -seemed well educated and was very personable- said he was a Constitutionalist. (Mehdi talked with him twice-he was the last person Mehdi spoke to.) I thought he was smarter and more rational than most of the others-but the more I have thought about it I wonder if maybe in reality he was scarier than the rest because he could be a very charming successful politician. Thoughts?
This is a really interesting comment. I think all Americans (especially those on the Left who are concerned about today's current political atmosphere) should read the following:
Theoretical underpinnings of America:
-The Prince by Machiavelli
-Discources on Livy by Machiavelli
-Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes
Creation of America
-Common Sense by Thomas Paine
-The Federalist Papers (assorted) and Anti-Federalist Papers
Implementation of the ideals
-Reflections on the Revolution in France by Edmund Burke
-Democracy in America by Alexis de Toqueville
These works provide a really great view on the theoretical history of America, the creation of the American experiment, and then the actual implementation. They all discuss the dangers of aggregated authority and how the American experiment responds to those. What I'll also say: I can GUARANTEE that the "smart" far-right guy in the Jubilee episode has read each and every one of the books I've listed. And can quote from all of them. The good news: he's probably the only one of that group of 20 knuckleheads who has any idea that those books exist. So to answer your question: yes, it is scary that intelligent individuals identify as "far right". From his comments, I think he's holding his nose being in the same room with the other 19 far-right participants. He seems more amused than anything to be there. So yeah: it's scary that smart people are attracted to extremist views.
Honestly, I'm more afraid of the five people that told Mehdi to get out of the country. And I'm sure there was plenty more horrible things said that didn't air.
Was watching the Sarah/Tim/JVL episode where you mentioned Medhi but wasn't sure what you were talking about so searching I found this interview. Wow, it opened up a whole new perspective - I had to google what is a Jubilee debate (hadn't heard of that), gripers, nelk boys and meaning of the overton window and fourteen words. Very unsettling as I had no idea there is this whole faction. Definitely makes me think there should be rules / regulations around algorithms like you were discussing in the other podcast. So thanks???!!!
Pete Buttagieg once said that they'll call you socialist no matter what you say, so engage; don't back off. I agree, and I salute Mr. Hasan for engaging. It promotes free speech. It exposes the snakes in the woodpile.
Thank you Mehdi. And yeah, Tim, there are a number of folks on Bluesky who are pissed at Mehdi for doing the Surrounded show. My reasoning for why he made the right move: You cannot protect against all proclamations from Dunning-Kruger victims. Stupid people vote. Smart people vote. Average people like me vote. You cannot titrate to get the perfect pitch. You just gotta engage. When "Connor" went all in on fascism, Mehdi stopped debating. I woulda punched the fucker, so well done there, good sir. Fucking pro-Franco? GTFO, asshole.
Mehdi, I completely agree with you in your statement of "the masks are off" now, but don't you think this is like a cancer that has metastasized and spread, ie dramatically increased among people, Trump super-charging it?
I am 48 years old and I am so confused, baffled and heartbroken, because in my very self, I still feel like I'm 10 years old and living in suburban CT in the 80's. It felt like such a more kum-ba-yah time. As a White person, with parents who taught me right from wrong, I feel that I have inhabited a very different world for such a long time. I remember one of my brothers once saying something racially off-color on a family car ride, and my parents both swiftly putting a stop to it. And it never happened again.
All these years later, I feel so disoriented. Yes, I knew racism existed, but it was widely viewed as wrong, low-class, and beyond the pale of human decency, at least in the world I not only grew up in but spent most of my adult years in as well. I know it was easy for me as a White child in comfortable suburban New England to believe in my very bones, that, with all of America's sins, we were trending in a better direction thanks to what was called progress. Now, I have no idea how to think or feel. Was it really there the whole time, this AMOUNT of hateful ugly?
I guess if I grew up in red Alabama, I wouldn't be as surprised? I just don't know what to think anymore.
Mehdi Hassan is brilliant and brave to do this debate. He is masterful in how he articulates examples and facts and dismantles those in front of him who do not have depth in the subjects that they claim to defend. They could not defend quite a few arguments, which is disappointing if they claim to be educated. Bias underscored by racism is never logical.
There was a lot of talk about de-radicalization. Germany and the Allies did not de-radicalize Nazis, they took over the education system and educated a new generation. The adults whether they be Nazis or other radical groups for the most part cannot be de-radicalized. You need the kids to learn something new. To do that you need to not trash the education system which is what trump is doing. The book "They thought they were Free" interviews Nazis after WWII and most (small sample size) remember the Nazi era fondly. Only one interviewee seemed to grasp what the Nazis had done.
Medhi Hassan's a Hamas shill, he should not escape accountability for swallowing Hamas fifth column propaganda whole.
So we protest weekly and out of hundreds of pro immigrant drivers honking - but there are the handful of angry white men in trucks screaming anti immigrant expletives at us. It’s so confusing why they embrace their hatred for immigrants so deeply? Does it make sense to push the message that America is and Americans are made up of all ethnicities all religions?. To push against the Nazi position? We are on the hunt for effective messaging?
Tim, your Mehdi fanboy shtick was a bit over the top here. Putting a skilled debater like Hasan up against these Jubilee MAGAtards was like putting LeBron up against 20 high school players. Mehdi unsurprisingly wiped the floor with them. Duh. Would you backslap LeBron after he dunked on each highs school player?
I was wondering whether those kids were intentionally being outrageous in making their extreme arguments, in an attempt to throw off Mehdi, esp Connor. Some of it almost seemed like a calculated pose, not the proffering of good faith arguments. Almost like what you see in the debating clubs in Oxford or Cambridge. But whatever was going on, Mehdi was superb. I have no intention of following their social media to find out if my hypothesis is correct. You tell me!! :)
Season 7 episode 12 “All About Mormons” on “South Park” they say Native Americans were white and came from Israel. Mehdi Hassan was wrong. Fact check your guests Tim, you’re from CO and should know this.
Two qwik takes... including a 5-alarm fire one.
First, re the young gentleman who, seemingly quite unashamedly and with a twinkle in his eye, conceded to Mehdi that, essentially, his beliefs fairly qualified him for the labels 'white supremacist'; fascist; anti-semite and neo-Nazi ... "I haven't any problem with it." Well, apparently, as you report, he does have a problem with it...NOW. He's been fired from whatever job he held before his employer was apprised of his Jubilee performance. No doubt the young man regards himself yet another victim of inequitable woke cancel culture. I've some gratuitous but reasonable counsel to offer him... Son, you weren't fired for your views. You were likely fired for stupidity. And, in your employer's realistic view [call it an unwelcome epiphany], an utter lack of mature judgement in presenting said employer with a 'problem' he didn't hire you to create.
Second take - and a warning I'm about to expropriate the term 'replacement' from the fringe right and their context for it. What is most alarming about the ethos of these terminally on-line, algorithmically poisoned youngsters is that, given their ages, they will inherit the earth. Simply put and actuarial realities being what they are - they will inevitably REPLACE US. Ponder the implications for American politics; culture; the economy; education... and democracy. It's horrifying to contemplate.
"Algorithmically poisoned"--what a fantastic description. I may have to borrow that phrasing.
It isn't trademarked or copyrighted - be my guest. Let's jam it into the lexicon.
"The problem" all comes down to the antisocial media. And there is nothing that can be done about it. Only when audiences THEMSELVES become selective about what they allow into their brains and start tuning out and stop following influencers and content creators will their brains stop being damaged and their moral sense perverted. The antisocial media platforms are perverted from their business model, all the way through to how they are used by consumers and exploited by marketers. We get our knickers in a bunch over government spies using social media and the influence of propaganda in China but blithely allow corporations to spy on us, recombine and resell our online DNA as they wish, and propagandize to their hearts content.
As Tim noted, when we were teenage Republicans (admittedly a generation apart!) it was damn difficult to find white supremacist, neo-Nazi or Communist Party material. My Republican parents had nothing to do with John Birchers who were seen as fringe and extremist. Now the Republican Party IS the John Birch Society. This was all made possible by the interest and especially the antisocial media.
There is no way that people can be de-radicalized unless they WANT to be de-radicalized. It is an addiction and like all other addictions can only be overcome by an internal commitment to change.
Not just antisocial media, but the vast rightwing ecosystem making millions upon millions off of people's gullibility and eagerness to be poisoned.
Certainly true, and there is also a left wing part of the media ecosystem making their piles of money. The difference is that the antisocial media platforms and the dark web are actually addictive to users in ways regular media cannot be.
In scale and influence, the left wing of the media ecosystem is a fraction of what the right-wing one is....that is a big reason why Dems lost the election, according to experts I've read (not my opinion).
Regarding the discussion on whether or not to engage with or platform far-right influencers: one thing you left out - when Pete Buttigieg goes on Fox or the like, when Mehdi uses his skills at a Jubilee debate, one positive consequence is that it embodies leadership that MANY are desperate to see…it reorients and possibly inspires the hearts and minds of future good faith actors. Yeah, I am also torn on the argument, but I’M a normie on the outside looking in, looking for hope. These courageous actions of resistance and education (eg Pete, Mehdi) give me hope.
I should say that’s why I’m in the comments section at all-my heart and mind have hope because of the incredible work and passion of clever, dedicated people in this dire landscape. Thanks to you people at The Bulwark, Pod Saves America n World, Heather Cox Richardson, Zeteo, Kinzinger, Jon Stewart, Colbert, Raging Moderates.
Get over your “young Republican days”, Tim.
I watched the Tim and JVL talking about and showing a couple of clips from the Jubilee-then I found the actual entire video and watched it--disturbing--but I would like to hear what anyone's take was on the guy who was so well spoken -seemed well educated and was very personable- said he was a Constitutionalist. (Mehdi talked with him twice-he was the last person Mehdi spoke to.) I thought he was smarter and more rational than most of the others-but the more I have thought about it I wonder if maybe in reality he was scarier than the rest because he could be a very charming successful politician. Thoughts?
This is a really interesting comment. I think all Americans (especially those on the Left who are concerned about today's current political atmosphere) should read the following:
Theoretical underpinnings of America:
-The Prince by Machiavelli
-Discources on Livy by Machiavelli
-Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes
Creation of America
-Common Sense by Thomas Paine
-The Federalist Papers (assorted) and Anti-Federalist Papers
Implementation of the ideals
-Reflections on the Revolution in France by Edmund Burke
-Democracy in America by Alexis de Toqueville
These works provide a really great view on the theoretical history of America, the creation of the American experiment, and then the actual implementation. They all discuss the dangers of aggregated authority and how the American experiment responds to those. What I'll also say: I can GUARANTEE that the "smart" far-right guy in the Jubilee episode has read each and every one of the books I've listed. And can quote from all of them. The good news: he's probably the only one of that group of 20 knuckleheads who has any idea that those books exist. So to answer your question: yes, it is scary that intelligent individuals identify as "far right". From his comments, I think he's holding his nose being in the same room with the other 19 far-right participants. He seems more amused than anything to be there. So yeah: it's scary that smart people are attracted to extremist views.
Honestly, I'm more afraid of the five people that told Mehdi to get out of the country. And I'm sure there was plenty more horrible things said that didn't air.
Was watching the Sarah/Tim/JVL episode where you mentioned Medhi but wasn't sure what you were talking about so searching I found this interview. Wow, it opened up a whole new perspective - I had to google what is a Jubilee debate (hadn't heard of that), gripers, nelk boys and meaning of the overton window and fourteen words. Very unsettling as I had no idea there is this whole faction. Definitely makes me think there should be rules / regulations around algorithms like you were discussing in the other podcast. So thanks???!!!
Pete Buttagieg once said that they'll call you socialist no matter what you say, so engage; don't back off. I agree, and I salute Mr. Hasan for engaging. It promotes free speech. It exposes the snakes in the woodpile.
Thank you Mehdi. And yeah, Tim, there are a number of folks on Bluesky who are pissed at Mehdi for doing the Surrounded show. My reasoning for why he made the right move: You cannot protect against all proclamations from Dunning-Kruger victims. Stupid people vote. Smart people vote. Average people like me vote. You cannot titrate to get the perfect pitch. You just gotta engage. When "Connor" went all in on fascism, Mehdi stopped debating. I woulda punched the fucker, so well done there, good sir. Fucking pro-Franco? GTFO, asshole.