One thing I wonder; why is religiosity causing so much division now, here? Especially as we have become more secular as a nation, according to polling data. I can only assume it’s something about Trumpism which is so counterintuitive considering what an ungodly specimen he is, not even attempting to mask his hateful thoughts. It must be a fluke convergence of forces I don’t understand.
One thing I wonder; why is religiosity causing so much division now, here? Especially as we have become more secular as a nation, according to polling data. I can only assume it’s something about Trumpism which is so counterintuitive considering what an ungodly specimen he is, not even attempting to mask his hateful thoughts. It must be a fluke convergence of forces I don’t understand.
I’ll give you my (probably overly simplified) two cents. I think what we are seeing today is simply a culmination of what has been brewing for awhile. For many years, those in the (Protestant) religious establishment were first among equals. They kind of got what they wanted. I’m old enough to remember Blue Laws for example (only stores selling fundamental needs like food and medicine were allowed to be open on Sunday). No one who didn’t claim a religious belief could possibly rise to national political prominence. And religion had to be the right kind of religion. JFK being a Catholic was a big deal at the time. He even had to basically pledge not to listen to the Pope if he were elected.
That started to change forty or fifty years ago as the nation became more secular. Now the religious establishment didn’t get to call all of the shots. People started objecting to religious symbols and practices in public life. First it was the Supreme Court outlawing prayer in public schools. The reaction to that decision was similar to Mike Johnson’s reaction to the teaching of evolution. Lots of bad things are going to happen if we take God out of the classroom.
And most of all, people started taking seriously the separation of church and state enshrined in the Constitution (despite what folks like MTG and Boebert say I can’t see any possibility of interpreting the Constitution any other way). And that, I believe, is the root of the problem. For all the good that religious folks do (and they certainly do a lot of good), many just can’t accept the idea that their religious beliefs don’t allow them to do whatever they want to do (like in the past). For example, they feel that if they want to discriminate against gays, they should be allowed to.
So this has been going on for some time. Just think how long we have heard about the phony “War on Christmas”.
I think the biggest thing that has happened in recent years to antagonize the Religious Right has been the rise of gay rights and, more recently, transgender rights. They fought gay marriage long and hard with all kinds of disingenuous arguments. But they lost. But they refused to completely back down so they came up with various “religious liberty” arguments to, in their minds, limit the damage.
I can only assume that they felt that, if they can’t win the gay marriage battle, what battles can they win? And in their minds the trend wasn’t positive. So they went looking for a champion for their side, someone who would push back against the secular tide flooding our country. And they didn’t much care who it was as long as they said the right things. It’s something of a move born of desperation.
There are two reasons for the divisiveness now. One, of course, is Trump. He turns the temperature up on everything and gives his followers license to do the same (every issue starts at “9” before being turned up to “11”). The second is a confluence that you mentioned. It is the confluence between the GOP power structure (who want to win elections) and the Religious Right (who believe that the other side is pure evil and must be kept out of power by any means necessary).
The common thread here is this: democracy is important, but not as important as winning elections.
Just ask Bill Barr who said he would vote for Trump in 2024 (despite calling him unqualified) because “the progressive Left and the Secular Humanists are the biggest threats to this country”. That doesn’t sound like someone all that worried about American democracy.
We are of a similar age; I remember the Sunday Blue Laws too. And all the liberating legal rulings that followed. I suspect gay rights was the straw that broke their tolerance, as you mention. And my assessment is they knew it was too late to go after gay Americans because it was already at mainstream acceptance - so they went after transgender rights instead. Most Americans don’t personally have a transgender relative, friend, or acquaintance so it was a “safe” group to attack. But I now see that tide turning. A few years ago comments in the NYT were very negative on transgender rights, but that’s changed, probably in response to the right wing meanness. Liberals didn’t want to make common cause with MAGAs. In a paradox the cause of transgender rights has benefited from the viciousness of the right wing attacks.
We sure have lost ground on separation of church and state! With more on the way, if we can’t stop this tide.
Trump changed everything with his reptilian skill at using any wedge issue. But I will always be negative on religion and its adherents, for gleefully accepting and advancing such an evil person. Talk about strange bedfellows. And rank hypocrisy, for all to see. This Supreme Court is playing a big role in allowing religion into government and protecting religion above individual freedom.
Thanks for your answer; it’s such an interesting, important topic, worthy of discussion.
Two further comments (and thanks for your response):
1) I could write pages on the religious liberty issue, but the bottom line is this: it’s clear to me that the Religious Right wants to be able to use their religious beliefs as a reason not to have to obey duly passed laws. For example, businesses can’t refuse services to anyone based on their sex, age, ethnicity, religion, national origin (and probably some others in this list). But they can if they claim that it violates their religious beliefs. So their religious beliefs not only “trump” the legislatures, but it also “trumps” any other belief that someone might use (try saying that you don’t want to serve a Black customer in your restaurant because you don’t believe that the races should mix and see how far you get). They simply want special treatment.
2) Trump’s support from the Evangelicals is probably the most amazing about-face that I have seen in a long time (second place would go to the anti-abortion rights groups who, pre-Dobbs, said that abortion policy is a state issue and then immediately post-Dobbs wanted a national ban) and would have severely damaged their credibility in a saner world. For years, their message was basically “the means justifies the ends”. In an instant, it became “the ends justifies the means”.
One thing I wonder; why is religiosity causing so much division now, here? Especially as we have become more secular as a nation, according to polling data. I can only assume it’s something about Trumpism which is so counterintuitive considering what an ungodly specimen he is, not even attempting to mask his hateful thoughts. It must be a fluke convergence of forces I don’t understand.
I’ll give you my (probably overly simplified) two cents. I think what we are seeing today is simply a culmination of what has been brewing for awhile. For many years, those in the (Protestant) religious establishment were first among equals. They kind of got what they wanted. I’m old enough to remember Blue Laws for example (only stores selling fundamental needs like food and medicine were allowed to be open on Sunday). No one who didn’t claim a religious belief could possibly rise to national political prominence. And religion had to be the right kind of religion. JFK being a Catholic was a big deal at the time. He even had to basically pledge not to listen to the Pope if he were elected.
That started to change forty or fifty years ago as the nation became more secular. Now the religious establishment didn’t get to call all of the shots. People started objecting to religious symbols and practices in public life. First it was the Supreme Court outlawing prayer in public schools. The reaction to that decision was similar to Mike Johnson’s reaction to the teaching of evolution. Lots of bad things are going to happen if we take God out of the classroom.
And most of all, people started taking seriously the separation of church and state enshrined in the Constitution (despite what folks like MTG and Boebert say I can’t see any possibility of interpreting the Constitution any other way). And that, I believe, is the root of the problem. For all the good that religious folks do (and they certainly do a lot of good), many just can’t accept the idea that their religious beliefs don’t allow them to do whatever they want to do (like in the past). For example, they feel that if they want to discriminate against gays, they should be allowed to.
So this has been going on for some time. Just think how long we have heard about the phony “War on Christmas”.
I think the biggest thing that has happened in recent years to antagonize the Religious Right has been the rise of gay rights and, more recently, transgender rights. They fought gay marriage long and hard with all kinds of disingenuous arguments. But they lost. But they refused to completely back down so they came up with various “religious liberty” arguments to, in their minds, limit the damage.
I can only assume that they felt that, if they can’t win the gay marriage battle, what battles can they win? And in their minds the trend wasn’t positive. So they went looking for a champion for their side, someone who would push back against the secular tide flooding our country. And they didn’t much care who it was as long as they said the right things. It’s something of a move born of desperation.
There are two reasons for the divisiveness now. One, of course, is Trump. He turns the temperature up on everything and gives his followers license to do the same (every issue starts at “9” before being turned up to “11”). The second is a confluence that you mentioned. It is the confluence between the GOP power structure (who want to win elections) and the Religious Right (who believe that the other side is pure evil and must be kept out of power by any means necessary).
The common thread here is this: democracy is important, but not as important as winning elections.
Just ask Bill Barr who said he would vote for Trump in 2024 (despite calling him unqualified) because “the progressive Left and the Secular Humanists are the biggest threats to this country”. That doesn’t sound like someone all that worried about American democracy.
We are of a similar age; I remember the Sunday Blue Laws too. And all the liberating legal rulings that followed. I suspect gay rights was the straw that broke their tolerance, as you mention. And my assessment is they knew it was too late to go after gay Americans because it was already at mainstream acceptance - so they went after transgender rights instead. Most Americans don’t personally have a transgender relative, friend, or acquaintance so it was a “safe” group to attack. But I now see that tide turning. A few years ago comments in the NYT were very negative on transgender rights, but that’s changed, probably in response to the right wing meanness. Liberals didn’t want to make common cause with MAGAs. In a paradox the cause of transgender rights has benefited from the viciousness of the right wing attacks.
We sure have lost ground on separation of church and state! With more on the way, if we can’t stop this tide.
Trump changed everything with his reptilian skill at using any wedge issue. But I will always be negative on religion and its adherents, for gleefully accepting and advancing such an evil person. Talk about strange bedfellows. And rank hypocrisy, for all to see. This Supreme Court is playing a big role in allowing religion into government and protecting religion above individual freedom.
Thanks for your answer; it’s such an interesting, important topic, worthy of discussion.
Two further comments (and thanks for your response):
1) I could write pages on the religious liberty issue, but the bottom line is this: it’s clear to me that the Religious Right wants to be able to use their religious beliefs as a reason not to have to obey duly passed laws. For example, businesses can’t refuse services to anyone based on their sex, age, ethnicity, religion, national origin (and probably some others in this list). But they can if they claim that it violates their religious beliefs. So their religious beliefs not only “trump” the legislatures, but it also “trumps” any other belief that someone might use (try saying that you don’t want to serve a Black customer in your restaurant because you don’t believe that the races should mix and see how far you get). They simply want special treatment.
2) Trump’s support from the Evangelicals is probably the most amazing about-face that I have seen in a long time (second place would go to the anti-abortion rights groups who, pre-Dobbs, said that abortion policy is a state issue and then immediately post-Dobbs wanted a national ban) and would have severely damaged their credibility in a saner world. For years, their message was basically “the means justifies the ends”. In an instant, it became “the ends justifies the means”.