Yep. These are the same types of white affluent women who looked the other way or cheered behind closed doors as their husbands enforced segregation and facilitated lynchings of blacks and other whites they deemed race traitors not too long ago.
They are "nice" only until the moment they discover you do not share their vision of a Christofascist illiberal USA in which no one other than themselves is allowed to tell anyone else what to do.
They are 2025's version of the Daughters of the Confederacy.
They live in parts of Baltimore County that are probably solidly white, middle to upper middle class. They live there because they don't want to be associated in any way with the city of Baltimore,which is majority Black.
No doubt they consider themselves
to be kind, decent people. Doesn't mean they are.
Edited to add that I am a lifelong Marylander,born in Baltimore, grew up in Anne Arundel County. Many members of the extended family are conservative. My parents and my siblings are the Democratic wing
Whether "J6ers" or other MAGA-friendly people are honest or "in on the scam" (to overthrow the Republic), I never call them "conservative," only "authoritarian."
I suspect they are kind to people they deem worthy of kindness, decent when it doesn't cost them anything, and financially comfortable enough cocoon themselves out of situations where the veneer drops.
What does one say about the kindness and decency of ordinary Germans who didn't directly participate in atrocities, yet fervently supported Hitler? Some choices in life are so fundamental, so stark, and whether to throw your lot in with MAGA is one of them. It supersedes nearly all other considerations and defines one at such a basic and primitive level that it's hard to get past it to anything else. It gets to who you really are as a person, not who you pretend to be at the Country Club or church. I know too many MAGAs who I would have at one point considered good people. Their support of American Fascism is a deeply immoral act that has hollowed out their souls. It's hard to say they are now good and decent when they failed on the single most defining moral choice in their lifetime. If America is to survive, they must pay some penalty that may help balance the books, so to speak. We must de-MAGA-fy our country. They should not be allowed to get away with it. MAGA is a massive evil and dabbling in it should come at a dear price.
I ask because the fear religious conservatives have of declining religion participation in the US is a big part of what drives Trumpers. It’s part of the extensive social change the US has experienced in the last decades. They are becoming a minority and they don’t like that.
I agree. Ultimately defeating MAGA isn't going to be about winning elections (although that is completely neccessary). Something is broken morally in our culture and our country, and it needs addressed. We've comofied every aspect of aspect of human interaction, we've privatized most of our physical spaces and built environment, we assign worth to people according only to what they produce. We seem to have collectively desided that shamelessness is the anecdote to hyposcrisy. Social media is calibarated to turn young people into unhappy, insecure narcisists.
I lived in a impoverished country for a while about ten years ago, and I've found myself missing it terribly the last few months. The sense of community and trust in the town I was in, the "everyone pitch in" attitidute, the way people collectively treated children with kindess everywhere. I don't want to romanticize it because poverty is terrible and govenrment was corrupt and is only becoming more horrible and people needed so many things so terribly. But there are aspects of the culture I ache for terribly.
John, not being able to say that I know ANY MAGAnuts personally (living in Germany does have its advantages), I suspect many of those to whom you refer WERE good people who made the natural and human mistake of taking the first step on a path they thought they understood, and that did not appear all that slippery and steep at the time either because they could not or just did not stop to think of the ultimate ramifications.
Now, of course, they are too embedded in the culture (i.e., peer-pressure), mind-set (unwittingly indoctrinated) and possibly would be too embarrassed to admit their failing, to do anything about it but continue to "go with the flow".
I write not to excuse the inexcusable, but to possibly explain what they did when we could see from the jump where it was going.
I do know some MAGA people, and they are what I would call really good people, and I agree totally with what you said. I love "people who made the natural and human mistake of taking the first step on a path they thought they understood..."
When I indulge in the game of trying to name the ultimate villain, I go to Rupert Murdoch. Propaganda.
Then I try to forgive him, not because I want to be snowy white, but because judgement is two-edged sword. If I judge others, I will judge myself, and that is not good self-care. Self care is essential to staying strong in this.
Anne, your willingness to forgive speaks well of you. At some point I find that my ability to philosophically "turn the other cheek" and let people slide on by comes to a screeching halt, usually at the realization that they do not WANT to do anything else than continue down the slippery slope. People are different, but one does not have to like or approve of the difference. The old line about horses and water comes to mind.
I thought the same thing of you, David, in your willingness to see that people are making mistakes. I am religious, but I don't believe in sin. I believe in mistakes. And I am willing to forgive others only because I was so unhappy years ago, and came to believe that a large driver of that was my tendency to hold resentments.
I don't think there is any line more helpful than the horses and water one! And I don't discuss any politics with Trumpers. I am friendly, and enjoy what we can enjoy together, which is a lot with some who are not hard core, and very little with those who are. It's certainly a cult with the hard core, and that means they do not have a lot of self-esteem.
We had friends who went doen the rightwing path and we think that might have begun when thr husband was working from home and was listening to sports talk radio, which skews rightwing.
They were good friends of several decades, and we shared a lot, but we couldn't face meetings and conversations that became political and sharing disinformation.
David, I'm jealous of you for not knowing any MAGAs. I've become estranged from most of my family and friends who've gone down the MAGA rabbit hole. Or, I should say, they chose to estrange themselves from me by joining a fascist movement. It was obvious from 2015 that it was a fascist movement and that was a dealbreaker for me. I let them know I felt that way at the time, but they chose the demagogue. So I chose not to associate with such people. It is an act of morality and patriotism to reject and isolate such people, just as it would haven been in 1920s and 30s Germany. They know damn well what they are choosing. And that is unforgivable.
John, I am truly sorry for the sitaution in which you find yourself. I have no doubt that you are not alone, and not just because you post here. From my, admittedly exalted view point, I suspect that many of the rabbit holers were of the "I can ride this tiger and know when to get off" faction who over-estimated their abilities or underestimated the drawing power of the peer-group they joined, or both.
Sort of like when my daughter was in college and said that those students were only smoking while in college, but will quit after graduation because they can.
David, the ones I know absolutely relish their choice. They love Trump, almost like a god. They will love him no matter what he does. If he were to set up a nazi style concentration camp (El Salvador), they would still love him. If he were to exterminate immigrants, they would still love him. How they came to embrace evil should be studied, but they have embraced it nonetheless and in so doing have become a part of that evil. They've had so many off-ramps, and not taken them. They wallow in their ignorance and malice. What Trump did was to expose people as bad who, without that influence, would never have revealed that side of their personality. Had he not come down that escalator, they might have been ok. Not so much now.
Ironically, if we studied how they came to embrace evil, at least 50% of the source would be their churches (and I say this as someone who is religious and goes to church weekly). The Marylander's statement about doing God's work substantiates that for her as near as I can tell.
Could it be that, like beauty and obscenity, "God" is in the eye of the beholder/believer? After all, Simon and Garfunkel said it bes: One hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
John, philosophically, I can't give you a "Like", but I understand your situation and what you went, and probably still are, going through, as much as I can from here.
Wow (to Maggie's comment). I just love this. Buffet-style Christianity, which I'm pretty confident they'd all identify as. Pick and choose whatever suits you at that moment.
I've mentioned this before but a really interesting insight into the Christianity aspects of MAGA is the book: The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism by Tim Alberta.
"I have little doubt most of these individual Marylanders are personally honest and decent and kind."
As for me, I doubt it very much.
The wives of the Nazi leadership in 1933 were good, solid, patriotic Germans...
Yep. These are the same types of white affluent women who looked the other way or cheered behind closed doors as their husbands enforced segregation and facilitated lynchings of blacks and other whites they deemed race traitors not too long ago.
They are "nice" only until the moment they discover you do not share their vision of a Christofascist illiberal USA in which no one other than themselves is allowed to tell anyone else what to do.
They are 2025's version of the Daughters of the Confederacy.
They live in parts of Baltimore County that are probably solidly white, middle to upper middle class. They live there because they don't want to be associated in any way with the city of Baltimore,which is majority Black.
No doubt they consider themselves
to be kind, decent people. Doesn't mean they are.
Edited to add that I am a lifelong Marylander,born in Baltimore, grew up in Anne Arundel County. Many members of the extended family are conservative. My parents and my siblings are the Democratic wing
Whether "J6ers" or other MAGA-friendly people are honest or "in on the scam" (to overthrow the Republic), I never call them "conservative," only "authoritarian."
to other reasonably affluent white people they probably are honest , decent and kind
You beat me to it!!!
I suspect they are kind to people they deem worthy of kindness, decent when it doesn't cost them anything, and financially comfortable enough cocoon themselves out of situations where the veneer drops.
Agree, Maggie.
Wow! That was a good one!
What does one say about the kindness and decency of ordinary Germans who didn't directly participate in atrocities, yet fervently supported Hitler? Some choices in life are so fundamental, so stark, and whether to throw your lot in with MAGA is one of them. It supersedes nearly all other considerations and defines one at such a basic and primitive level that it's hard to get past it to anything else. It gets to who you really are as a person, not who you pretend to be at the Country Club or church. I know too many MAGAs who I would have at one point considered good people. Their support of American Fascism is a deeply immoral act that has hollowed out their souls. It's hard to say they are now good and decent when they failed on the single most defining moral choice in their lifetime. If America is to survive, they must pay some penalty that may help balance the books, so to speak. We must de-MAGA-fy our country. They should not be allowed to get away with it. MAGA is a massive evil and dabbling in it should come at a dear price.
Just curious - are they all religious conservatives?
They are probably political conservatives, with some also religious conservatives.
I ask because the fear religious conservatives have of declining religion participation in the US is a big part of what drives Trumpers. It’s part of the extensive social change the US has experienced in the last decades. They are becoming a minority and they don’t like that.
That is a great observation! I never thought about it. I think you are right.
I agree. Ultimately defeating MAGA isn't going to be about winning elections (although that is completely neccessary). Something is broken morally in our culture and our country, and it needs addressed. We've comofied every aspect of aspect of human interaction, we've privatized most of our physical spaces and built environment, we assign worth to people according only to what they produce. We seem to have collectively desided that shamelessness is the anecdote to hyposcrisy. Social media is calibarated to turn young people into unhappy, insecure narcisists.
I lived in a impoverished country for a while about ten years ago, and I've found myself missing it terribly the last few months. The sense of community and trust in the town I was in, the "everyone pitch in" attitidute, the way people collectively treated children with kindess everywhere. I don't want to romanticize it because poverty is terrible and govenrment was corrupt and is only becoming more horrible and people needed so many things so terribly. But there are aspects of the culture I ache for terribly.
This is an excellent comment John, thanks for writing this. I completely agree.
John, not being able to say that I know ANY MAGAnuts personally (living in Germany does have its advantages), I suspect many of those to whom you refer WERE good people who made the natural and human mistake of taking the first step on a path they thought they understood, and that did not appear all that slippery and steep at the time either because they could not or just did not stop to think of the ultimate ramifications.
Now, of course, they are too embedded in the culture (i.e., peer-pressure), mind-set (unwittingly indoctrinated) and possibly would be too embarrassed to admit their failing, to do anything about it but continue to "go with the flow".
I write not to excuse the inexcusable, but to possibly explain what they did when we could see from the jump where it was going.
I do know some MAGA people, and they are what I would call really good people, and I agree totally with what you said. I love "people who made the natural and human mistake of taking the first step on a path they thought they understood..."
When I indulge in the game of trying to name the ultimate villain, I go to Rupert Murdoch. Propaganda.
Then I try to forgive him, not because I want to be snowy white, but because judgement is two-edged sword. If I judge others, I will judge myself, and that is not good self-care. Self care is essential to staying strong in this.
Anne, your willingness to forgive speaks well of you. At some point I find that my ability to philosophically "turn the other cheek" and let people slide on by comes to a screeching halt, usually at the realization that they do not WANT to do anything else than continue down the slippery slope. People are different, but one does not have to like or approve of the difference. The old line about horses and water comes to mind.
I thought the same thing of you, David, in your willingness to see that people are making mistakes. I am religious, but I don't believe in sin. I believe in mistakes. And I am willing to forgive others only because I was so unhappy years ago, and came to believe that a large driver of that was my tendency to hold resentments.
I don't think there is any line more helpful than the horses and water one! And I don't discuss any politics with Trumpers. I am friendly, and enjoy what we can enjoy together, which is a lot with some who are not hard core, and very little with those who are. It's certainly a cult with the hard core, and that means they do not have a lot of self-esteem.
🥂😉
We had friends who went doen the rightwing path and we think that might have begun when thr husband was working from home and was listening to sports talk radio, which skews rightwing.
They were good friends of several decades, and we shared a lot, but we couldn't face meetings and conversations that became political and sharing disinformation.
David, I'm jealous of you for not knowing any MAGAs. I've become estranged from most of my family and friends who've gone down the MAGA rabbit hole. Or, I should say, they chose to estrange themselves from me by joining a fascist movement. It was obvious from 2015 that it was a fascist movement and that was a dealbreaker for me. I let them know I felt that way at the time, but they chose the demagogue. So I chose not to associate with such people. It is an act of morality and patriotism to reject and isolate such people, just as it would haven been in 1920s and 30s Germany. They know damn well what they are choosing. And that is unforgivable.
John, I am truly sorry for the sitaution in which you find yourself. I have no doubt that you are not alone, and not just because you post here. From my, admittedly exalted view point, I suspect that many of the rabbit holers were of the "I can ride this tiger and know when to get off" faction who over-estimated their abilities or underestimated the drawing power of the peer-group they joined, or both.
Sort of like when my daughter was in college and said that those students were only smoking while in college, but will quit after graduation because they can.
David, the ones I know absolutely relish their choice. They love Trump, almost like a god. They will love him no matter what he does. If he were to set up a nazi style concentration camp (El Salvador), they would still love him. If he were to exterminate immigrants, they would still love him. How they came to embrace evil should be studied, but they have embraced it nonetheless and in so doing have become a part of that evil. They've had so many off-ramps, and not taken them. They wallow in their ignorance and malice. What Trump did was to expose people as bad who, without that influence, would never have revealed that side of their personality. Had he not come down that escalator, they might have been ok. Not so much now.
Ironically, if we studied how they came to embrace evil, at least 50% of the source would be their churches (and I say this as someone who is religious and goes to church weekly). The Marylander's statement about doing God's work substantiates that for her as near as I can tell.
Could it be that, like beauty and obscenity, "God" is in the eye of the beholder/believer? After all, Simon and Garfunkel said it bes: One hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
John, philosophically, I can't give you a "Like", but I understand your situation and what you went, and probably still are, going through, as much as I can from here.
Different topic, nosy question: Ukrainian flag?
I support a strong American alliance with Ukraine.
Wow (to Maggie's comment). I just love this. Buffet-style Christianity, which I'm pretty confident they'd all identify as. Pick and choose whatever suits you at that moment.
I've mentioned this before but a really interesting insight into the Christianity aspects of MAGA is the book: The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism by Tim Alberta.
Count the silverware after bridge club.