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Rebecca K's avatar

Thank you Tim for vocalizing my thoughts about Harris perfectly. Yeah she's got the "politician" vibes, but she lacks the perceived 'corruption' issues of Clinton, she's got the closest thing to a plug-and-play campaign around, and she's a self-evidently competent person who seems likely at this point to be able to cobble together more of Joe Biden's coalition than Joe Biden can.

(Sarah 's plan that is a great thing for a healthy democracy and party infrastructure that's functioning smoothly at every level, but if that were doable we wouldn't be here, but 100% glad she's adding it to the conversation).

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Ginny's avatar

She’s also a black woman of immigrant parents, and much as I like her and would vote for her, I don’t see her winning. At least not in the states that we need.

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Rebecca K's avatar

I go back and forth with the identity issues, here's my 2 cents:

1: Politics is the art of the possible, it is what it is, the stakes are too high.

2: If America would go for Trump over an identity issue like that, fuck everything

*shrugs*

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Ginny's avatar

We got Trump because of Obama. The American people elected a black guy for president and look who we got for the next person. Everybody can say Hillary Clinton this and Hillary Clinton that as much as you like, but she was just a Democrat that was Secretary of State for Obama. There are also some people in this country, and I’m related to them, that think a woman couldn’t possibly have the temperament or intelligence to be president. They are all looking at Trump while they’re saying it! Give me anybody that you all think would be better than the old white guy fighting the old white crazy guy, and I can poke a hole in all of them. If Trump wins again, it’s because America, by and large, is unintelligent.

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Rebecca K's avatar

I honestly don't know if you're right!

Looking at it from the Dem politics side though, I do think it's hard to get around Harris. Because if when it comes down to it, I think that if the reason for not nominating Harris is "we want votes from racist/sexist people," that'll fragment the shit out of the already-fragmenting Dem coalition. This genuinely might be a no-win scenario

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Ginny's avatar

Well, more people voted for Joe Biden than Hillary Clinton, and Kamala Harris was his VP pick, so I lean more toward sexism, particularly with the position of POTUS. HOWEVER…that ignores the fact that Trump in manifestly unfit for office, and voting for Biden over Trump should be a no-brainer. All I hear when people say Biden is too old is the subtext…which is that If he dies in office, we will have Kamala Harris for President. Now, I don’t care about that. I have said many times, in this forum, that I think she would do a great job as President…certainly a helluva lot better than Trump or any Republican. But my opinion is not what we need to worry about.

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JCB's avatar

Then America will get what it deserves.

But you kowtow to racists in you analysis like this, you are just going to help us get there faster.

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Ginny's avatar

It’s not just racists. I would vote for Mayor Pete. I voted for Hillary…I would vote for my pet rock over any Republican. However, my vote doesn’t matter because my vote is locked in. The votes we are trying to lock in often belong to misogynists, homophobes, bigots and people who like their gas-guzzling trucks. And therein lies the problem.

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JCB's avatar

You are telling black people, gays and others to sit down. The very same people who have stood most faithfully for the Democratic party. Not only is this immoral, it is stupid. (Why the hell would we keep showing up for EVERY ONE ELSE?)

Maybe work on fighting bigotry and prosecuting the case against MAGA

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Ginny's avatar

I thought we were, as Sara says, “In the business of beating Donald Trump”? You can’t go around Harris if you want to keep the Democratic coalition together in key states, and she can’t win against him. If you want to hand our country over to Trump, by all means, do whatever you want. I will vote for a tree stump over Trump…but again, it’s not my vote that matters…

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JCB's avatar

You do not beat Trump by validating bigots.

You beat Trump by prosecuting the case for truth, the rule of law, and the results forcefully.

I am stunned by the moral blindness here: because

MAGA is mostly white and racist, blacks and others have to accept being tossed aside. All that does is discredit the Dems in the eyes of many of the people they need the most. It is simply a disgraceful, recipe for failure.

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Ginny's avatar

Again, my opinion really doesn’t matter. I’m not in Democratic leadership, and I’m going to vote for whoever they put up. However, this is an existential moment. And switching pitchers right now is not going look good in the eyes of the voters that we need to capture. We will never capture MAGA. NEVER. We need a few key voters in swing states to not turn away from us right now, and kicking Biden into the curb will never be a good look.

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JCB's avatar

Seriously, wtf?

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Ginny's avatar

Exactly…that is what I say every time someone says Biden needs to quit on us, or we need to oust him. He already beat Trump once…if we force him out, or he pulls out over 1 bad night, we are handing the country over to MAGA, and we will get the government we deserve.

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JCB's avatar

My dignity (and those of others) is not an acceptable price for a strategy that will only end in failure. Sorry you don't get that.

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Ginny's avatar

What about Biden‘s dignity? He already beat Trump once, and I believe he can do it again. He is doing a good job, a far and away better job than Trump ever did. The problem is Trump. I sincerely don’t believe anyone else in the Democratic Party today can beat Donald Trump. And all I care about is beating Donald Trump. I voted for Obama twice and he won. I voted for Hillary and she lost.

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Ginny's avatar

I am not the only person here who thinks Biden quitting would be a mistake. And as I said, my vote is guaranteed for any Democrat. What will you say if we do what you want and lose? Is that the result that you want? We oust Biden, we lose, and Trump continues to take the country down the tubes anyway?

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