The better analogy for a Trump pardon might be the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa. Allowing someone back into the fold of society first requires Truth. Admission of the wrongs that were committed, whether you believe the election was "stolen" or not, and acceptance that this disqualifies you for further office might be sufficient for reconciliation.
I do not understand equating matters of money to matters of the mind. Apparently it was physically impossible for Germany to pay 120 billion dollars. It's certainly not physically impossible for Trump's supporters to behave themselves if Trump is convicted and not pardoned, it's just mentally unacceptable. If the facts show he should be convicted, then he should be convicted, regardless of how it makes people feel. Remember "facts do not care about your feelings".
Most of the commentary I've seen (and I don't pretend to have read all of it) is only related to how the right-wing would respond to a Trump pardon.
First, I don't think there is any scenario in which the MAGA-verse is satisfied. If Trump is elected, there will be full-throated retribution for all the perceived injustices done against Trump and his followers. If Trump loses, there will be another round of "the election was stolen" and perhaps an outburst that makes Jan 6 look like a picnic in the park. Any convictions will inflame MAGA followers, even if Trump accepts a plea deal and admits everything in his allocution. And if Biden pardons him (even with an admission of guilt), it will be taken by Trump and MAGA as vindication (and a sign of weakness) and generate even more heated rhetoric and likely violence.
But how will non-MAGA world react to a pardon? I suspect a large segment will be very disillusioned with Biden and the Dems for giving in to Trump with misguided mercy, with many either withdrawing from the field in frustration and some even responding with anger, vitriol and perhaps violence.
I continue to be saddened by the indictment of TFG. I believe it to be a dangerous precedent that will unleash chaos for the forseeable future into our politics. That said, it needs to be done for all the reasons mentioned in the article. He needs to be defeated in November 2024 and the prosecutions need to proceed. I fear that this course will continue to divide us, but I also see this course as a kind of 'truth commission.' When this has all played out, we, as a nation, can turn to healing. Whether or not healing will involve a pardon or pardons is not clear to me at this juncture.
"Does anyone seriously believe that a pardon would disarm Trump, or calm the base into rationality and respect for democratic norms? "
No, of course. But the base could disarm Trump in a heartbeat. If the Jeffrey Clark episode showed anything, it's that when truly confronted, Trump always backs down. The base is shrinking slowly, more by simple attrition than people actually coming to their senses (99.999% who could, did so long ago). When that base is safely under a potential electoral majority, Trump will slither away, albeit still playing the "innocent" victim. Unfortunately I don't see that happening by Nov. 2024.
Boom goes the Dynamite. Sometimes I forget why you are the boss Charlie, because my opinions run closer to JVL on most things. Nothing like a good Churchill quote.(assuming it isn't missattributed)
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful comments. It is tantalizing but a mistake to identify constructs with relativism. There are many different kinds of human constructions. For example, money is a human construction. That is, there are advantages to an economy to create mechanisms of exchange, and our money does that, for example. Natural languages are human constructs. And so on. Some forms or relativism are perfectly plausible as well as they are often fit to the particular circumstances that different people or groups face. There are after all many different and reasonable ways to organize life or respond to the circumstances individuals and groups of individuals face. On the other hand, one just can't call anything at all an instance of 'rule of law' just like one cannot correctly claim that any form of political organization constitutes a form of 'liberalism.'
I deeply apologize if this has been addressed previously in the comments- I have been having a discussion with my best friend in politics around the idea that if TFG is convicted, most (not all) of the 1/6 convicts ought to be pardoned. Like JVL in his argument, I am not wholly convinced. My logic is that if TFG is guilty of conspiracy and lying to the country (obviously) it might be best for the country to pardon the people who truly took this to heart and felt that they were trying to undo a wrong. Not the ready for violence militia types but many of the others. My best friend generally disagrees with me and as I said, I might not agree with me either.
However, if he did, you know that Trump would regard this with triumph and contempt, as if he had defeated Biden in some macho battle. He will regard any compassion with contempt-- as weakness. "I told you I beat him!"
It is not to be borne. He has so utterly corrupted our values.
Good points are made here, certainly. However, I think you are addressing the problems of a pardon with an eye toward Trump. JVL is addressing the problems with his base, and others who believe these prosecutions to be mostly political. I think it’s a lose-lose. If you pardon him, you empower Trump with a bs “exoneration”. If you don’t pardon him, this divide in the country grows exponentially worse. Remember that many of this MAGAT’s are people who still aren’t “over” the Confederacy. They have been simmering with resentment thru the generations. I’m very concerned about where this will go. 12 million people believe that they may need to “take their country back with violence.
Hello Charlie, just a small point about German reparations after WW1. Not even a small portion of those supposedly great sums were ever paid. Whatever payments had been scheduled
were dropped in 1931. The notion that their economic impact drove Germany toward fascism is a canard, simply.
A pardon of Trump will not make anything better, will not ensure he will be contrite and settle into a quiet retirement. His mouth will run until the day he expires and keep his minions enthralled and dangerous. Adam Schiff said it best,"He has compromised our elections, and he will do so again. You will not change him. You cannot constrain him. He is who he is. Truth matters little to him. What's right matters even less, and decency matters not at all."
The better analogy for a Trump pardon might be the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa. Allowing someone back into the fold of society first requires Truth. Admission of the wrongs that were committed, whether you believe the election was "stolen" or not, and acceptance that this disqualifies you for further office might be sufficient for reconciliation.
I do not understand equating matters of money to matters of the mind. Apparently it was physically impossible for Germany to pay 120 billion dollars. It's certainly not physically impossible for Trump's supporters to behave themselves if Trump is convicted and not pardoned, it's just mentally unacceptable. If the facts show he should be convicted, then he should be convicted, regardless of how it makes people feel. Remember "facts do not care about your feelings".
Most of the commentary I've seen (and I don't pretend to have read all of it) is only related to how the right-wing would respond to a Trump pardon.
First, I don't think there is any scenario in which the MAGA-verse is satisfied. If Trump is elected, there will be full-throated retribution for all the perceived injustices done against Trump and his followers. If Trump loses, there will be another round of "the election was stolen" and perhaps an outburst that makes Jan 6 look like a picnic in the park. Any convictions will inflame MAGA followers, even if Trump accepts a plea deal and admits everything in his allocution. And if Biden pardons him (even with an admission of guilt), it will be taken by Trump and MAGA as vindication (and a sign of weakness) and generate even more heated rhetoric and likely violence.
But how will non-MAGA world react to a pardon? I suspect a large segment will be very disillusioned with Biden and the Dems for giving in to Trump with misguided mercy, with many either withdrawing from the field in frustration and some even responding with anger, vitriol and perhaps violence.
I continue to be saddened by the indictment of TFG. I believe it to be a dangerous precedent that will unleash chaos for the forseeable future into our politics. That said, it needs to be done for all the reasons mentioned in the article. He needs to be defeated in November 2024 and the prosecutions need to proceed. I fear that this course will continue to divide us, but I also see this course as a kind of 'truth commission.' When this has all played out, we, as a nation, can turn to healing. Whether or not healing will involve a pardon or pardons is not clear to me at this juncture.
Perhaps a redux of Moses parting the Red Sea might work.
"Does anyone seriously believe that a pardon would disarm Trump, or calm the base into rationality and respect for democratic norms? "
No, of course. But the base could disarm Trump in a heartbeat. If the Jeffrey Clark episode showed anything, it's that when truly confronted, Trump always backs down. The base is shrinking slowly, more by simple attrition than people actually coming to their senses (99.999% who could, did so long ago). When that base is safely under a potential electoral majority, Trump will slither away, albeit still playing the "innocent" victim. Unfortunately I don't see that happening by Nov. 2024.
Boom goes the Dynamite. Sometimes I forget why you are the boss Charlie, because my opinions run closer to JVL on most things. Nothing like a good Churchill quote.(assuming it isn't missattributed)
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful comments. It is tantalizing but a mistake to identify constructs with relativism. There are many different kinds of human constructions. For example, money is a human construction. That is, there are advantages to an economy to create mechanisms of exchange, and our money does that, for example. Natural languages are human constructs. And so on. Some forms or relativism are perfectly plausible as well as they are often fit to the particular circumstances that different people or groups face. There are after all many different and reasonable ways to organize life or respond to the circumstances individuals and groups of individuals face. On the other hand, one just can't call anything at all an instance of 'rule of law' just like one cannot correctly claim that any form of political organization constitutes a form of 'liberalism.'
I deeply apologize if this has been addressed previously in the comments- I have been having a discussion with my best friend in politics around the idea that if TFG is convicted, most (not all) of the 1/6 convicts ought to be pardoned. Like JVL in his argument, I am not wholly convinced. My logic is that if TFG is guilty of conspiracy and lying to the country (obviously) it might be best for the country to pardon the people who truly took this to heart and felt that they were trying to undo a wrong. Not the ready for violence militia types but many of the others. My best friend generally disagrees with me and as I said, I might not agree with me either.
I don't think Biden would pardon Trump.
However, if he did, you know that Trump would regard this with triumph and contempt, as if he had defeated Biden in some macho battle. He will regard any compassion with contempt-- as weakness. "I told you I beat him!"
It is not to be borne. He has so utterly corrupted our values.
Good points are made here, certainly. However, I think you are addressing the problems of a pardon with an eye toward Trump. JVL is addressing the problems with his base, and others who believe these prosecutions to be mostly political. I think it’s a lose-lose. If you pardon him, you empower Trump with a bs “exoneration”. If you don’t pardon him, this divide in the country grows exponentially worse. Remember that many of this MAGAT’s are people who still aren’t “over” the Confederacy. They have been simmering with resentment thru the generations. I’m very concerned about where this will go. 12 million people believe that they may need to “take their country back with violence.
I think, after reading both JVL and CJS, I agree with Charlie on this one. The stakes are high, which is why we (gestures broadly) cannot flinch.
No pardon.
Hello Charlie, just a small point about German reparations after WW1. Not even a small portion of those supposedly great sums were ever paid. Whatever payments had been scheduled
were dropped in 1931. The notion that their economic impact drove Germany toward fascism is a canard, simply.
thank you for the kind words! I appreciate it.
I have a better idea. Biden should grant the Murdock family a pardon for all the lies and harm they have unleashed on our democracy.
A pardon of Trump will not make anything better, will not ensure he will be contrite and settle into a quiet retirement. His mouth will run until the day he expires and keep his minions enthralled and dangerous. Adam Schiff said it best,"He has compromised our elections, and he will do so again. You will not change him. You cannot constrain him. He is who he is. Truth matters little to him. What's right matters even less, and decency matters not at all."