You don’t get into it here specifically, but I want to bring the Indivisible movement’s approach into the scope of your framework.
Indivisible has explicitly called for nonviolence, in line with your thinking. But they have also opted, thus far, to protest only where their actions are less likely to interfere with the authoritarianism aga…
You don’t get into it here specifically, but I want to bring the Indivisible movement’s approach into the scope of your framework.
Indivisible has explicitly called for nonviolence, in line with your thinking. But they have also opted, thus far, to protest only where their actions are less likely to interfere with the authoritarianism against which they allegedly stand. See, e.g., the decision to hold No Kings events on 14 June everywhere *but* the one city where the aspiring King DJT the First will be reviewing a military parade from aloft, Fuhrer style.
Those old enough to recall the GWB years may remember that during that time, protesters chafed at the administration’s innovation to dedicate any opposition to “free speech zones,” tidy pens of protest cordoned off well away from where they risked interfering with the arrival of whichever dignitary to whatever official ceremony was the subject of the opposition’s objection. As a result, news cameras might grab some b-roll of the protesters, but their objections were unlikely to register with or move anyone with any actual power to register the backlash as a political consequence and rethink their position. The first amendment was nominally respected, but neutered. Such protests had little chance of being effective.
By ceding the most contested ground in the nation to the budding authoritarian, Indivisible has essentially made the entire country into a “free speech zone” writ large. Hobbyist activists can march without fear in blue cities around the country, but in the heart of the republic tyranny will take root unimpeded. This should bring shame to these organizers. They have designed a “resistance of least resistance.”
I am not persuaded by the argument that protesting a military parade in DC could be misread as not merely anti-monarch, but anti-military. Anyone afraid of taking this position should refresh their recollection of the Founders’ thoughts about standing armies: TLDR, they identified them as probably the greatest corrupting force working against a functional republic and the source of the downfall of virtually all free states across history. There is a reason Article I sec 8 prohibits the Congress from appropriating funds to the army for any period longer than 2 years and that the 2nd Amendment identifies well regulated state militias as necessary for a free state’s security. Our country is not meant to be celebrating its army’s 250th anniversary. In fact, that such an anniversary exists should signal as clearly as anything else in the news that the system the nation’s founders envisioned is fundamentally broken.
It is, of course, also deeply wrong that such a celebration should be conflated with the commander in chief’s birthday. For anyone keeping score by comparison to other points in history, it is worth noting that the Third Reich did not hold a large scale military parade in honor of Hitler’s birthday until 1939. If Trump is allowed to enjoy his birthday bash with no opposition in sight, how could it not go to his head?
Just as bank robbers rob banks because that’s where the money is, protestors should be in DC because that’s where the tyranny is. More people marched in Shanghai in 1989 than were at Tienanmen Square, but the world heard about Tienanmen because that’s where the people stood against the tanks. Amelia Boynton didn’t turn around at the Pettus Bridge for fear of a confrontation with the police — she marched toward Montgomery because that’s where the power was. Patriots who wish to prevent the rise of authoritarianism in the US must come to terms with the fact that not to meet this moment with *actual resistance* is to tacitly accept the clear and predictable outcome. Such resistance may certainly be nonviolent, but it cannot be sheepish. It must be provocative. It cannot merely take the form of a sea of signs, however concise or clever, waving in a feckless mass far from the seat of power and studiously avoiding confrontation.
Those of us who traveled from North Carolina to DC for the Hands Off rally on The Mall considered doing a repeat for June 14th. We decided against it, not because we were afraid of the DC police but because of who the SPECTATORS for Trump's parade were likely to be. Think January 6th. Many in attendance will most certainly be armed and easily triggered. In addition, we understood that a counterprotest in DC itself might only serve to amplify the media attention to Trump's obscene birthday bash. It seemed better to stay in our home towns and assist with turning out our citizenry for our local No Kings rallies. Regional media does give coverage to protests, contrary to what Parrhizzia believes. Perhaps he spends too much time on Fox. I never go there. Parrhizzia should go to DC on his own and sass some of the MAGAheads who will be there and see what happens.. Good luck with that
Let us all turn out for Democracy this Saturday. The nation will be watching. We will return to DC soon and reclaim our nation's capital for the American people.
This is a clear articulation of the reasoning behind ceding the contested ground to the pro-authoritarians. I disagree, for the reasons I laid out in my original post. The fact that the state has outsourced to private actors the violence it might unleash on protestors does not make it any less critical to demonstrate opposition to the abuse of power.
I understand that no one wants to be the person standing closest to the tank when it starts to roll toward the crowd. But if no one steps forward to take that position, the tank rolls past unimpeded.
Jefe... I appreciate your passion and courage. However, I was not referring to tanks, marching soldiers, or cordons of DC police. I was referring to the MAGAhead militia types who are likely to be in DC on Saturday, armed and ready for trouble. I live in North Carolina. In 1979 the Communist Workers Party activists in Durham decided to hold a Death to the Klan rally in Greensboro on a weekend when the Klan was planning to march. Five of the guys were shot dead by the Klan members. Messing with militia crazies is like kicking a rabid dog. Don't do it.
I am gay and I was in DC for World Pride this past weekend. It will be interesting to see which parade draws the bigger crowd, Pride or Trump's vulgar display. ........ Another consideration that I did not mention: it is better not to have any of us in DC next weekend if there would only be a minimal turnout compared to the previous Hands Off and No Kings rallies. Let's manifest RESISTENCE in our home towns. I totally support Indivisible's decision not to be in DC on Saturday.
We need the "hobbyist activists" to get the numbers up to 3.5% of the public.
My take is that there needs to be a certain mix of protest tactics. And also that it is not always the same mix. You kind of can't know.
But my part in this is the hobbyist activist who demonstrates to encourage regular semi-apathetic busy people like me that they should take a second look at what is going on, and consider doing something to express their disapproval, without having to worry that if they go to a protest they are going to get hurt, or they won't be able to show up to work bc they got arrested.
Heather Cox Richardson Politics Chat June 10 video at 31:43:"Why do we protest in America?" pretty much expresses how I feel about it, although I do think that small amounts of stronger activities will play a beneficial role at some point.
I hear you. Does it change your thinking at all to consider what conclusion the busy, semi-apathetic people are likely to draw when the split screen that they see on Saturday is: one one side, a relatively chaotic scene of disorganized masses of protestors waving mismatching signs; and on the other, military might marching through streets flanked by white marble buildings, showcasing crisp precision and order?
I was very relieved. But honestly, I feel like that’s due more to us getting lucky than to any grand strategic coup by the protest organizers. If the parade had been more impressive (and, now that it’s normalized and T has been mocked for its wimpiness, I would bet that next time it will be) then I think my points all stand. What did you think?
Where I was, the protest was a really happy, fun event, and I liked the idea that people who are beginning to grow disenchanted with Trump might see that contrast to the violent images of LA. But: I’m not naive enough to think that the images from LA won’t leave a more striking impression, and that they won’t get the most press.
I really liked seeing the masses on the press. I liked the juxtaposition of all the bodies at the protests and sparse attendance at the parade. (I have not checked to see the footage of the parade from Trump media though. Angles that showed more people may not have shown up on anti-Trump media.)
It was framed by so many bad things though. I had a discussion with a MAGA friend re LA and the MN shootings that led me to decide to quit discussing politics with them. Not because of bad feelings, but just because I became more fully aware of the difference in what we consider trusted sources. It’s like we live on two different planets.
Point being: Although it looked like a lucky day to me, I also saw opinion pieces that really had no clue what even the peaceful protests were about, and I’m sure there is also plenty of press out there that puts Trump’s parade in a good light.
I really don't know what conclusion they are likely to draw. I'll think on it a bit. Are you thinking the alternative screen to the military might with precision and order would be protesters confronting the tanks etc in the parade?
I need to read your comments over as I'm kind of muddled over who has said what at this point lol, but another thing I thought of is that I think that one never has to call for violence.
There are people out there who are going to do it anyway, and there are MAGA who will react back to it.
My statement is that I'm against violence because it is wrong. I don't want people who are working for the things I believe in to be violent. Antifa is stupid and to my mind, just a bunch of baristas and bike messengers at play. (I lived a long time in SF Bay Area.) The things that replace violent revolutions are often worse than the original thing being protested.
If things are really messed up, violence will happen, and it will scare lots of people, and there will be all kinds of reactions, and if we are lucky, some of them will be productive. Remember Rodney King: Can't we all get along?
I have also had these thoughts:
If I recall, the Civil Rights movement was actually highly organized, and organized specifically to create disturbing visual images.
I remember learning during the Arab Spring that there was actually a sort of "Color Revolution School" that the Egyptian activists had been working with for at least a year prior. There's a guy who wrote books that the Serbians based the project on. Possibly the CIA helped.
Didn't the Russian revolution actually start to really move for the people because the govt was so harsh on regular protesting people that the army got on their side?
I actually disagree with JVL's premise that protesting is not a "let a thousand flowers bloom" situation.
I think when all kinds of things are happening it sets up a dynamic moving system, and if we are lucky, we hit the right mix that makes something shift. Unexpected things emerge out of complex systems.
The goal I think hobbyist activists like me can achieve is to get people who have been Trump supporters, but not heavy duty MAGA, and now are feeling like he is doing a bad job, to start telling their Republican Congress people that they don't like what is happening. Congress is one of the things in place to stop this. It might not work, but it is a thing to try.
“If I recall, the Civil Rights movement was actually highly organized, and organized specifically to create disturbing visual images.”
This is exactly my point. The current protest movement seems organized specifically *not* to create such images.
And on this vector, do you still feel that Tienanmen failed? It clarified, more firmly than virtually anything else could, the nature of the ruling regime. Note that China had to essentially build its own internet to control the dissemination of this image because of its fear of the image’s power. The regime recognizes that awareness of this incident among the body politic is an existential threat. The decision globally to prioritize economic interests and ignore such human rights abuses is an indictment of capitalism more than a mark of the demonstrators’ failure.
"organized specifically *not* to create such images."
I think it is more like it is organized to insulate it more fully from the possibility that a disturbing image could be interpreted as instigated by mal-intentioned radical left lunatics. It's just a bunch of silly old white people! Or maybe I shouldn't say it is organized to be that way as such. That is just how it is playing out so far. I do like that POC are staying home a lot. I think that is wise. But I would bet that has changed now even in this section (the indivisible section). Things evolve.
My main point is that many kinds of protest is likely better than figuring out what the best kind of protest is. The anti-MAGA version of flooding the zone? Idk.
Your description of how Tienanmen succeeded is sobering.
My thoughts ran as far as to: "I think the most striking image would be if a crowd of my fellow hobbyist activists end up being brutally beaten by US Marines." Dark JVL style moment, but not without some truth to it. I don't know. I'm feeling pretty down about it all after an interchange with a MAGA friend.
I can't find anybody who doesn't believe in the MAGA reality or the Dems/never Trumpers reality. I can't find anybody who is able to see a bigger picture. I don't know if I am able to see a bigger picture.
Still gonna go to the biggest city near me and hold my dumb sign. Faith is what you have when you don't believe.
General rule: if you make plans for AFTER the "protest" you are attending, then you aren't attending a protest - you are going for a nice walk with friends while holding a sign.
You don’t get into it here specifically, but I want to bring the Indivisible movement’s approach into the scope of your framework.
Indivisible has explicitly called for nonviolence, in line with your thinking. But they have also opted, thus far, to protest only where their actions are less likely to interfere with the authoritarianism against which they allegedly stand. See, e.g., the decision to hold No Kings events on 14 June everywhere *but* the one city where the aspiring King DJT the First will be reviewing a military parade from aloft, Fuhrer style.
Those old enough to recall the GWB years may remember that during that time, protesters chafed at the administration’s innovation to dedicate any opposition to “free speech zones,” tidy pens of protest cordoned off well away from where they risked interfering with the arrival of whichever dignitary to whatever official ceremony was the subject of the opposition’s objection. As a result, news cameras might grab some b-roll of the protesters, but their objections were unlikely to register with or move anyone with any actual power to register the backlash as a political consequence and rethink their position. The first amendment was nominally respected, but neutered. Such protests had little chance of being effective.
By ceding the most contested ground in the nation to the budding authoritarian, Indivisible has essentially made the entire country into a “free speech zone” writ large. Hobbyist activists can march without fear in blue cities around the country, but in the heart of the republic tyranny will take root unimpeded. This should bring shame to these organizers. They have designed a “resistance of least resistance.”
I am not persuaded by the argument that protesting a military parade in DC could be misread as not merely anti-monarch, but anti-military. Anyone afraid of taking this position should refresh their recollection of the Founders’ thoughts about standing armies: TLDR, they identified them as probably the greatest corrupting force working against a functional republic and the source of the downfall of virtually all free states across history. There is a reason Article I sec 8 prohibits the Congress from appropriating funds to the army for any period longer than 2 years and that the 2nd Amendment identifies well regulated state militias as necessary for a free state’s security. Our country is not meant to be celebrating its army’s 250th anniversary. In fact, that such an anniversary exists should signal as clearly as anything else in the news that the system the nation’s founders envisioned is fundamentally broken.
It is, of course, also deeply wrong that such a celebration should be conflated with the commander in chief’s birthday. For anyone keeping score by comparison to other points in history, it is worth noting that the Third Reich did not hold a large scale military parade in honor of Hitler’s birthday until 1939. If Trump is allowed to enjoy his birthday bash with no opposition in sight, how could it not go to his head?
Just as bank robbers rob banks because that’s where the money is, protestors should be in DC because that’s where the tyranny is. More people marched in Shanghai in 1989 than were at Tienanmen Square, but the world heard about Tienanmen because that’s where the people stood against the tanks. Amelia Boynton didn’t turn around at the Pettus Bridge for fear of a confrontation with the police — she marched toward Montgomery because that’s where the power was. Patriots who wish to prevent the rise of authoritarianism in the US must come to terms with the fact that not to meet this moment with *actual resistance* is to tacitly accept the clear and predictable outcome. Such resistance may certainly be nonviolent, but it cannot be sheepish. It must be provocative. It cannot merely take the form of a sea of signs, however concise or clever, waving in a feckless mass far from the seat of power and studiously avoiding confrontation.
Those of us who traveled from North Carolina to DC for the Hands Off rally on The Mall considered doing a repeat for June 14th. We decided against it, not because we were afraid of the DC police but because of who the SPECTATORS for Trump's parade were likely to be. Think January 6th. Many in attendance will most certainly be armed and easily triggered. In addition, we understood that a counterprotest in DC itself might only serve to amplify the media attention to Trump's obscene birthday bash. It seemed better to stay in our home towns and assist with turning out our citizenry for our local No Kings rallies. Regional media does give coverage to protests, contrary to what Parrhizzia believes. Perhaps he spends too much time on Fox. I never go there. Parrhizzia should go to DC on his own and sass some of the MAGAheads who will be there and see what happens.. Good luck with that
Let us all turn out for Democracy this Saturday. The nation will be watching. We will return to DC soon and reclaim our nation's capital for the American people.
This is a clear articulation of the reasoning behind ceding the contested ground to the pro-authoritarians. I disagree, for the reasons I laid out in my original post. The fact that the state has outsourced to private actors the violence it might unleash on protestors does not make it any less critical to demonstrate opposition to the abuse of power.
I understand that no one wants to be the person standing closest to the tank when it starts to roll toward the crowd. But if no one steps forward to take that position, the tank rolls past unimpeded.
Jefe... I appreciate your passion and courage. However, I was not referring to tanks, marching soldiers, or cordons of DC police. I was referring to the MAGAhead militia types who are likely to be in DC on Saturday, armed and ready for trouble. I live in North Carolina. In 1979 the Communist Workers Party activists in Durham decided to hold a Death to the Klan rally in Greensboro on a weekend when the Klan was planning to march. Five of the guys were shot dead by the Klan members. Messing with militia crazies is like kicking a rabid dog. Don't do it.
I am gay and I was in DC for World Pride this past weekend. It will be interesting to see which parade draws the bigger crowd, Pride or Trump's vulgar display. ........ Another consideration that I did not mention: it is better not to have any of us in DC next weekend if there would only be a minimal turnout compared to the previous Hands Off and No Kings rallies. Let's manifest RESISTENCE in our home towns. I totally support Indivisible's decision not to be in DC on Saturday.
We need the "hobbyist activists" to get the numbers up to 3.5% of the public.
My take is that there needs to be a certain mix of protest tactics. And also that it is not always the same mix. You kind of can't know.
But my part in this is the hobbyist activist who demonstrates to encourage regular semi-apathetic busy people like me that they should take a second look at what is going on, and consider doing something to express their disapproval, without having to worry that if they go to a protest they are going to get hurt, or they won't be able to show up to work bc they got arrested.
Heather Cox Richardson Politics Chat June 10 video at 31:43:"Why do we protest in America?" pretty much expresses how I feel about it, although I do think that small amounts of stronger activities will play a beneficial role at some point.
I hear you. Does it change your thinking at all to consider what conclusion the busy, semi-apathetic people are likely to draw when the split screen that they see on Saturday is: one one side, a relatively chaotic scene of disorganized masses of protestors waving mismatching signs; and on the other, military might marching through streets flanked by white marble buildings, showcasing crisp precision and order?
So what did you think of the split screen?
I was very relieved. But honestly, I feel like that’s due more to us getting lucky than to any grand strategic coup by the protest organizers. If the parade had been more impressive (and, now that it’s normalized and T has been mocked for its wimpiness, I would bet that next time it will be) then I think my points all stand. What did you think?
I agree. It was a lucky day.
Where I was, the protest was a really happy, fun event, and I liked the idea that people who are beginning to grow disenchanted with Trump might see that contrast to the violent images of LA. But: I’m not naive enough to think that the images from LA won’t leave a more striking impression, and that they won’t get the most press.
I really liked seeing the masses on the press. I liked the juxtaposition of all the bodies at the protests and sparse attendance at the parade. (I have not checked to see the footage of the parade from Trump media though. Angles that showed more people may not have shown up on anti-Trump media.)
It was framed by so many bad things though. I had a discussion with a MAGA friend re LA and the MN shootings that led me to decide to quit discussing politics with them. Not because of bad feelings, but just because I became more fully aware of the difference in what we consider trusted sources. It’s like we live on two different planets.
Point being: Although it looked like a lucky day to me, I also saw opinion pieces that really had no clue what even the peaceful protests were about, and I’m sure there is also plenty of press out there that puts Trump’s parade in a good light.
There are two split screens.
I really don't know what conclusion they are likely to draw. I'll think on it a bit. Are you thinking the alternative screen to the military might with precision and order would be protesters confronting the tanks etc in the parade?
Perhaps; or, at a minimum, lining the sides of the parade route with signs of opposition (eg No Kings, Respect Due Process)
I need to read your comments over as I'm kind of muddled over who has said what at this point lol, but another thing I thought of is that I think that one never has to call for violence.
There are people out there who are going to do it anyway, and there are MAGA who will react back to it.
My statement is that I'm against violence because it is wrong. I don't want people who are working for the things I believe in to be violent. Antifa is stupid and to my mind, just a bunch of baristas and bike messengers at play. (I lived a long time in SF Bay Area.) The things that replace violent revolutions are often worse than the original thing being protested.
If things are really messed up, violence will happen, and it will scare lots of people, and there will be all kinds of reactions, and if we are lucky, some of them will be productive. Remember Rodney King: Can't we all get along?
I have also had these thoughts:
If I recall, the Civil Rights movement was actually highly organized, and organized specifically to create disturbing visual images.
I remember learning during the Arab Spring that there was actually a sort of "Color Revolution School" that the Egyptian activists had been working with for at least a year prior. There's a guy who wrote books that the Serbians based the project on. Possibly the CIA helped.
Didn't the Russian revolution actually start to really move for the people because the govt was so harsh on regular protesting people that the army got on their side?
I actually disagree with JVL's premise that protesting is not a "let a thousand flowers bloom" situation.
I think when all kinds of things are happening it sets up a dynamic moving system, and if we are lucky, we hit the right mix that makes something shift. Unexpected things emerge out of complex systems.
The goal I think hobbyist activists like me can achieve is to get people who have been Trump supporters, but not heavy duty MAGA, and now are feeling like he is doing a bad job, to start telling their Republican Congress people that they don't like what is happening. Congress is one of the things in place to stop this. It might not work, but it is a thing to try.
“If I recall, the Civil Rights movement was actually highly organized, and organized specifically to create disturbing visual images.”
This is exactly my point. The current protest movement seems organized specifically *not* to create such images.
And on this vector, do you still feel that Tienanmen failed? It clarified, more firmly than virtually anything else could, the nature of the ruling regime. Note that China had to essentially build its own internet to control the dissemination of this image because of its fear of the image’s power. The regime recognizes that awareness of this incident among the body politic is an existential threat. The decision globally to prioritize economic interests and ignore such human rights abuses is an indictment of capitalism more than a mark of the demonstrators’ failure.
"organized specifically *not* to create such images."
I think it is more like it is organized to insulate it more fully from the possibility that a disturbing image could be interpreted as instigated by mal-intentioned radical left lunatics. It's just a bunch of silly old white people! Or maybe I shouldn't say it is organized to be that way as such. That is just how it is playing out so far. I do like that POC are staying home a lot. I think that is wise. But I would bet that has changed now even in this section (the indivisible section). Things evolve.
My main point is that many kinds of protest is likely better than figuring out what the best kind of protest is. The anti-MAGA version of flooding the zone? Idk.
Your description of how Tienanmen succeeded is sobering.
I also was thinking: Wait...but Tienanmen didn't work.
My thoughts ran as far as to: "I think the most striking image would be if a crowd of my fellow hobbyist activists end up being brutally beaten by US Marines." Dark JVL style moment, but not without some truth to it. I don't know. I'm feeling pretty down about it all after an interchange with a MAGA friend.
I can't find anybody who doesn't believe in the MAGA reality or the Dems/never Trumpers reality. I can't find anybody who is able to see a bigger picture. I don't know if I am able to see a bigger picture.
Still gonna go to the biggest city near me and hold my dumb sign. Faith is what you have when you don't believe.
Strong agree.
I'm going to steal the term "Hobbyist activists".
General rule: if you make plans for AFTER the "protest" you are attending, then you aren't attending a protest - you are going for a nice walk with friends while holding a sign.
https://open.substack.com/pub/thebulwark/p/what-do-trump-and-these-rioters-have?r=3hh94p&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=124751456