Great discussion. What is important to understand is that in today's world, reality, as in objective reality, facts and evidence do not matter a lick. They haven't for a while, at the moment is seems to have started to become worse in the Bush presidency in which the regime saw fit to continually lie about their false claims about Saddam's complicity in the 9/11 attacks, that "stovepiping" thing, that seemed to prompt the "truther" movement that itself claimed that the Bush regime was itself complicit in the attacks, that thread of them planting thermite in the towers, to further their power over Americans.
We've always had such lies in administrations that drive conspiracy "theories", but it has gotten far worse due to precisely what you discussed in this episode. Rational people can see the links and development that imply that opinions are also "truth". They are NOT, but that no longer matters. The question is can this dreadnaught be stopped? I doubt it.
Although he hadn't listened to this episode yet, CNN's Brian Stelter did give Sonny a shout-out in the last 5 minutes of a conversation with Pod Save America's Tommy Vietor.
Also, your idea , Sonny, -young people of various backgrounds and ideologies have to debate each other with Mehdi moderating… or/and /with Guest moderators.
I would love to see an interview with the producers at Jubilee. Tim had a great interview with Mehdi, but I think to close the circle we need to hear from Jubilee. What were they trying to accomplish with that episode? How did they select these people? What ground rules did they give the participants? After seeing the open racism against Mehdi, would they consider adding more rules of conduct? How did they think the debate would go? How do they feel about the outcome of the episode?
Whoa! What an illuminating conversation! As a Boomer, I had no idea! Makes it hard not to feel heartbroken at what seems like the impending demise of our society. I find myself saying more and more...I'm glad I'm old.
We are reacting to that Mehdi Hasan episode, but the Jordan Peterson one was just illuminating for different reasons. Mehdi absolutely own his 20, but that is no surprise as Medhi is a very skilled debater who even wrote a book about debating. There are few people professional or amateur who can get in the ring with him. Add to these the format allowed him to dictate the topics, and the results were predictable, though how how little his opponents prepared was revealing. Peterson had all the same advantages, but his 20 opponents pretty much own him. His motte baily trick was exposed like never before, and he was called schrodinger's Christian. Peterson came off like a word salad buffoon, while many if his 20 opponents came off as thoughtful and engaged. What many of the critics have failed to notice is the 20 far right conservatives are exactly were the movement is. These 20 were simply mimicking what Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, and the rest are saying everyday. Whatever the criticsm Jubilee deserves, it was honest in labeling them as far right. These kids are right in the middle of where the far right is in America.
Julia is correct Sonny is one of the best interviewers on the Bulwark. Does his homework on the guests and gets a good dialogue going.
Jubilee seems to be part of our de-evolution that started with “celebrities” like Paris Hilton, Kardashians and the Jersey Shore types that became rich and famous for doing nothing or hamming it up in front of a camera.
Bunch: "But like even when it's people I like, I there's there's no utility in a video clip of famous established person who is good at talking about this sort of thing, humiliating a college kid.... I realized that the usefulness of them for the average viewer was to confirm all of their ideas and be like, see, the people who think things I don't think are idiots. Look at how dumb these people are. They can't even articulate what their what their point is. Whereas my champion is so smart. Look at how erudite he is. And it's so obvious that if you think about it for two seconds, he's clearly right."
I think Bunch really nails it here--not just for something like Jubilee, but news consumption for a lot of people, myself included. I'm aware of the good feeling that arises when I read something that confirms my beliefs, or information that weakens Trump in some way. But I'm also aware of the bad feeling that arises when the opposite happens. Both feelings are powerful enough to influence what information I consume.
This is not a good thing.
What would be a good thing is some mechanism, process, or institution that helps people break out of this; something that will help will take in and be open to truths, whether they make confirm one's beliefs or the opposite.
I never heard of Jubilee prior to the Hasan episode. Sonny makes a great point that the Jerry Springer approach seems to have worked if we are only hearing about it now and not when it was about promoting more civilized, good faith debate. Seems more like a trashy reality show than a legitimate forum for debate, which is unfortunately what people want. We continue to amuse ourselves to death.
What I found deeply unsettling was that Hasan was not given notice that he would be debating far right fascists. He was only told that they were Trump voters, and probably assumed they’d be the type Sarah talks to in her focus groups (hopelessly misinformed and stupid, perhaps, but not deliberately malicious). It seems like they intentionally misled him to heighten the drama and get their viral moment, and unfortunately it succeeded. Luckily he’s a professional and a big boy who knows how to debate and maintain his composure, but it is incredibly unethical and slimy to deliberately throw a minority and an immigrant into the lion’s den without his informed consent, and I’m concerned this might be the standard going forward because it worked as intended.
The problem with these types of programs is that their relatively benign (or even noble) origin stories provide cover for them even after they’ve been enshittified. If liberals and progressives collectively started refusing to come on the show, the far right/MAGA narrative would be that the libs are too afraid to leave their safe spaces to debate with them because blah blah facts don’t care about your feelings blah blah they or some such bullshit, and sadly a lot of non-MAGA people will hear that and think they have a point. So I don’t see much of an off-ramp now.
Another unfortunate aspect of the current era is this replacement of people with actual expertise with influencers or aspiring influencers. If the people behind Jubilee had any semblance of ethics, they would move to an anonymous format where the participants are contractually bound to remain anonymous and refrain from using their participation in the program as promotional material, including sharing clips of themselves on social media. But this will never happen because no one would ever agree to participate without a shot at fame.
Regarding Reddit, I don’t see it in quite the idealized way described here. Anonymity is poisonous even in the context of these niche interests, and these groups can easily become toxic echo chambers (if you really want to spiral, look at r/conservative where the tolerant pro-first amendment mods seem to have a full time job deleting any comments that don’t revere Trump). Even seemingly benign interests that should not be controversial can go off the rails if people feel strongly enough about them.
Something I was once told by a Reddit rep was that Facebook is where you go to read about things you don’t care about written by people you do care about. Reddit is where you go to read about things you do care about written by people you don’t care about. The not caring about people is not a positive thing. I want to be part of a community where I get to see content I care about written by people I care about, and who care about me, but there is no profit in that.
Lily - really appreciate this commentary. You had me at your Postman reference, then went more wide ranging. Only quibble was with your closing thought - let’s make The Bulwark the exception and help this be as profitable financially to The Management as it is for us readers/commenters in intellectual & spiritual terms
Looks to me like Mehdi handed them the rope to hang themselves by allowing them to just talk. They applauded Nazism, and religious zealotry. Its not often you hear folks ask for blasphemy to be made a crime. This was a sanity check as to where the country was heading under MAGA.
My concern is that they might be the future. I don't feel comfortable dismissing them, even though they are young and stupid.
I think of the scene in Cabaret where the young people sing "Tomorrow Belongs to Me." I think of The Sound of Music, where the daughter's seventeen year old boyfriend becomes a Nazi. I think of the Nazi propaganda film "Hitler Youth Quex." Young people are powerful.
I'm thinking of Cartman as a troll, just looking to give everyone the finger. Some of these kids may be true believers but I wonder if many of the loudmouth influencers just want to stand out by sticking it in people's eyes. But, yes, I'm nervous about the youth, especially those who really never knew what it was like before Trump.
JH, that T.H.I.N.K. acronym is a balm—if only Jubilee used it as a filter instead of a punchline.
Imagine applying “Is it kind?” to a panel where trauma survivors are baited into defending their humanity in front of dudes whose personalities are 80% Reddit and 20% rage protein.
Jubilee doesn’t dismantle the “woke cathedral.” It builds a coliseum. And then invites the mob to vote on who deserves dignity.
What we need isn’t more “debate.”
We need collective shadow work.
We need secular values with soul.
And we need fewer ringmasters turning suffering into content.
Great discussion. What is important to understand is that in today's world, reality, as in objective reality, facts and evidence do not matter a lick. They haven't for a while, at the moment is seems to have started to become worse in the Bush presidency in which the regime saw fit to continually lie about their false claims about Saddam's complicity in the 9/11 attacks, that "stovepiping" thing, that seemed to prompt the "truther" movement that itself claimed that the Bush regime was itself complicit in the attacks, that thread of them planting thermite in the towers, to further their power over Americans.
We've always had such lies in administrations that drive conspiracy "theories", but it has gotten far worse due to precisely what you discussed in this episode. Rational people can see the links and development that imply that opinions are also "truth". They are NOT, but that no longer matters. The question is can this dreadnaught be stopped? I doubt it.
Although he hadn't listened to this episode yet, CNN's Brian Stelter did give Sonny a shout-out in the last 5 minutes of a conversation with Pod Save America's Tommy Vietor.
https://youtu.be/PyHGDH-CrOU?t=3289
Also, your idea , Sonny, -young people of various backgrounds and ideologies have to debate each other with Mehdi moderating… or/and /with Guest moderators.
Thank you Sonny for this conversation.
I have paused it because, well who wouldn’t.
I will hear out anyone who thinks they can predict and commodify human interaction in a combative space.
That’s all I have to say.
Also- uhhhh… how do I say this?
Don’t not amplify or suppress voices, but, is this the way to do it?
Rethink your thinking
I would love to see an interview with the producers at Jubilee. Tim had a great interview with Mehdi, but I think to close the circle we need to hear from Jubilee. What were they trying to accomplish with that episode? How did they select these people? What ground rules did they give the participants? After seeing the open racism against Mehdi, would they consider adding more rules of conduct? How did they think the debate would go? How do they feel about the outcome of the episode?
Whoa! What an illuminating conversation! As a Boomer, I had no idea! Makes it hard not to feel heartbroken at what seems like the impending demise of our society. I find myself saying more and more...I'm glad I'm old.
We are reacting to that Mehdi Hasan episode, but the Jordan Peterson one was just illuminating for different reasons. Mehdi absolutely own his 20, but that is no surprise as Medhi is a very skilled debater who even wrote a book about debating. There are few people professional or amateur who can get in the ring with him. Add to these the format allowed him to dictate the topics, and the results were predictable, though how how little his opponents prepared was revealing. Peterson had all the same advantages, but his 20 opponents pretty much own him. His motte baily trick was exposed like never before, and he was called schrodinger's Christian. Peterson came off like a word salad buffoon, while many if his 20 opponents came off as thoughtful and engaged. What many of the critics have failed to notice is the 20 far right conservatives are exactly were the movement is. These 20 were simply mimicking what Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, and the rest are saying everyday. Whatever the criticsm Jubilee deserves, it was honest in labeling them as far right. These kids are right in the middle of where the far right is in America.
Fantastic conversation. Thank you!
Julia is correct Sonny is one of the best interviewers on the Bulwark. Does his homework on the guests and gets a good dialogue going.
Jubilee seems to be part of our de-evolution that started with “celebrities” like Paris Hilton, Kardashians and the Jersey Shore types that became rich and famous for doing nothing or hamming it up in front of a camera.
Now I have a better understanding of why watching the Mehdi clips of Jubilee last week made me so uncomfortable. Thanks for this conversation.
Bunch: "But like even when it's people I like, I there's there's no utility in a video clip of famous established person who is good at talking about this sort of thing, humiliating a college kid.... I realized that the usefulness of them for the average viewer was to confirm all of their ideas and be like, see, the people who think things I don't think are idiots. Look at how dumb these people are. They can't even articulate what their what their point is. Whereas my champion is so smart. Look at how erudite he is. And it's so obvious that if you think about it for two seconds, he's clearly right."
I think Bunch really nails it here--not just for something like Jubilee, but news consumption for a lot of people, myself included. I'm aware of the good feeling that arises when I read something that confirms my beliefs, or information that weakens Trump in some way. But I'm also aware of the bad feeling that arises when the opposite happens. Both feelings are powerful enough to influence what information I consume.
This is not a good thing.
What would be a good thing is some mechanism, process, or institution that helps people break out of this; something that will help will take in and be open to truths, whether they make confirm one's beliefs or the opposite.
I never heard of Jubilee prior to the Hasan episode. Sonny makes a great point that the Jerry Springer approach seems to have worked if we are only hearing about it now and not when it was about promoting more civilized, good faith debate. Seems more like a trashy reality show than a legitimate forum for debate, which is unfortunately what people want. We continue to amuse ourselves to death.
What I found deeply unsettling was that Hasan was not given notice that he would be debating far right fascists. He was only told that they were Trump voters, and probably assumed they’d be the type Sarah talks to in her focus groups (hopelessly misinformed and stupid, perhaps, but not deliberately malicious). It seems like they intentionally misled him to heighten the drama and get their viral moment, and unfortunately it succeeded. Luckily he’s a professional and a big boy who knows how to debate and maintain his composure, but it is incredibly unethical and slimy to deliberately throw a minority and an immigrant into the lion’s den without his informed consent, and I’m concerned this might be the standard going forward because it worked as intended.
The problem with these types of programs is that their relatively benign (or even noble) origin stories provide cover for them even after they’ve been enshittified. If liberals and progressives collectively started refusing to come on the show, the far right/MAGA narrative would be that the libs are too afraid to leave their safe spaces to debate with them because blah blah facts don’t care about your feelings blah blah they or some such bullshit, and sadly a lot of non-MAGA people will hear that and think they have a point. So I don’t see much of an off-ramp now.
Another unfortunate aspect of the current era is this replacement of people with actual expertise with influencers or aspiring influencers. If the people behind Jubilee had any semblance of ethics, they would move to an anonymous format where the participants are contractually bound to remain anonymous and refrain from using their participation in the program as promotional material, including sharing clips of themselves on social media. But this will never happen because no one would ever agree to participate without a shot at fame.
Regarding Reddit, I don’t see it in quite the idealized way described here. Anonymity is poisonous even in the context of these niche interests, and these groups can easily become toxic echo chambers (if you really want to spiral, look at r/conservative where the tolerant pro-first amendment mods seem to have a full time job deleting any comments that don’t revere Trump). Even seemingly benign interests that should not be controversial can go off the rails if people feel strongly enough about them.
Something I was once told by a Reddit rep was that Facebook is where you go to read about things you don’t care about written by people you do care about. Reddit is where you go to read about things you do care about written by people you don’t care about. The not caring about people is not a positive thing. I want to be part of a community where I get to see content I care about written by people I care about, and who care about me, but there is no profit in that.
Lily - really appreciate this commentary. You had me at your Postman reference, then went more wide ranging. Only quibble was with your closing thought - let’s make The Bulwark the exception and help this be as profitable financially to The Management as it is for us readers/commenters in intellectual & spiritual terms
Looks to me like Mehdi handed them the rope to hang themselves by allowing them to just talk. They applauded Nazism, and religious zealotry. Its not often you hear folks ask for blasphemy to be made a crime. This was a sanity check as to where the country was heading under MAGA.
My eyes were opened.
Yes, but...Tim Miller in his conversation either with JVL or with Mehdi pointed out that the kids and their followers think *they* owned Mehdi.
Well, those kids and their followers are all Cartman of South Park.
My concern is that they might be the future. I don't feel comfortable dismissing them, even though they are young and stupid.
I think of the scene in Cabaret where the young people sing "Tomorrow Belongs to Me." I think of The Sound of Music, where the daughter's seventeen year old boyfriend becomes a Nazi. I think of the Nazi propaganda film "Hitler Youth Quex." Young people are powerful.
Also, I much prefer Cartman.
I'm thinking of Cartman as a troll, just looking to give everyone the finger. Some of these kids may be true believers but I wonder if many of the loudmouth influencers just want to stand out by sticking it in people's eyes. But, yes, I'm nervous about the youth, especially those who really never knew what it was like before Trump.
Only saw this show from a link a friend sent. Didn't know if it existed.
Pass on please. Rev Dietrich Bonhoeffer on maga.
https://youtu.be/ww47bR86wSc?si=xvJoWoEWDjIA0atk
https://youtu.be/KA5vytp9JPU?si=h0bxrK4GqnUiuLfz
JH, that T.H.I.N.K. acronym is a balm—if only Jubilee used it as a filter instead of a punchline.
Imagine applying “Is it kind?” to a panel where trauma survivors are baited into defending their humanity in front of dudes whose personalities are 80% Reddit and 20% rage protein.
Jubilee doesn’t dismantle the “woke cathedral.” It builds a coliseum. And then invites the mob to vote on who deserves dignity.
What we need isn’t more “debate.”
We need collective shadow work.
We need secular values with soul.
And we need fewer ringmasters turning suffering into content.