On this week’s episode, I’m rejoined by Puck media correspondent Julia Alexander to discuss the absurdities of Jubilee. You might not recognize the name of the company but you’ve probably seen some of their clips; most recently, Mehdi Hasan went up against 20 self-described far-right conservatives that resulted in at least one of the participants losing his job after he proudly declared himself an autocrat and downplayed Nazi crimes during the Holocaust. Is this brand of debate spectacle lucrative? Maybe! Is it bad for society? Undoubtedly. We examine why on this week’s episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend!
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Great discussion. What is important to understand is that in today's world, reality, as in objective reality, facts and evidence do not matter a lick. They haven't for a while, at the moment is seems to have started to become worse in the Bush presidency in which the regime saw fit to continually lie about their false claims about Saddam's complicity in the 9/11 attacks, that "stovepiping" thing, that seemed to prompt the "truther" movement that itself claimed that the Bush regime was itself complicit in the attacks, that thread of them planting thermite in the towers, to further their power over Americans.
We've always had such lies in administrations that drive conspiracy "theories", but it has gotten far worse due to precisely what you discussed in this episode. Rational people can see the links and development that imply that opinions are also "truth". They are NOT, but that no longer matters. The question is can this dreadnaught be stopped? I doubt it.
Although he hadn't listened to this episode yet, CNN's Brian Stelter did give Sonny a shout-out in the last 5 minutes of a conversation with Pod Save America's Tommy Vietor.
https://youtu.be/PyHGDH-CrOU?t=3289
Also, your idea , Sonny, -young people of various backgrounds and ideologies have to debate each other with Mehdi moderating… or/and /with Guest moderators.
Thank you Sonny for this conversation.
I have paused it because, well who wouldn’t.
I will hear out anyone who thinks they can predict and commodify human interaction in a combative space.
That’s all I have to say.
Also- uhhhh… how do I say this?
Don’t not amplify or suppress voices, but, is this the way to do it?
Rethink your thinking
I would love to see an interview with the producers at Jubilee. Tim had a great interview with Mehdi, but I think to close the circle we need to hear from Jubilee. What were they trying to accomplish with that episode? How did they select these people? What ground rules did they give the participants? After seeing the open racism against Mehdi, would they consider adding more rules of conduct? How did they think the debate would go? How do they feel about the outcome of the episode?
Whoa! What an illuminating conversation! As a Boomer, I had no idea! Makes it hard not to feel heartbroken at what seems like the impending demise of our society. I find myself saying more and more...I'm glad I'm old.
We are reacting to that Mehdi Hasan episode, but the Jordan Peterson one was just illuminating for different reasons. Mehdi absolutely own his 20, but that is no surprise as Medhi is a very skilled debater who even wrote a book about debating. There are few people professional or amateur who can get in the ring with him. Add to these the format allowed him to dictate the topics, and the results were predictable, though how how little his opponents prepared was revealing. Peterson had all the same advantages, but his 20 opponents pretty much own him. His motte baily trick was exposed like never before, and he was called schrodinger's Christian. Peterson came off like a word salad buffoon, while many if his 20 opponents came off as thoughtful and engaged. What many of the critics have failed to notice is the 20 far right conservatives are exactly were the movement is. These 20 were simply mimicking what Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, and the rest are saying everyday. Whatever the criticsm Jubilee deserves, it was honest in labeling them as far right. These kids are right in the middle of where the far right is in America.
Fantastic conversation. Thank you!
Julia is correct Sonny is one of the best interviewers on the Bulwark. Does his homework on the guests and gets a good dialogue going.
Jubilee seems to be part of our de-evolution that started with “celebrities” like Paris Hilton, Kardashians and the Jersey Shore types that became rich and famous for doing nothing or hamming it up in front of a camera.
Now I have a better understanding of why watching the Mehdi clips of Jubilee last week made me so uncomfortable. Thanks for this conversation.
Bunch: "But like even when it's people I like, I there's there's no utility in a video clip of famous established person who is good at talking about this sort of thing, humiliating a college kid.... I realized that the usefulness of them for the average viewer was to confirm all of their ideas and be like, see, the people who think things I don't think are idiots. Look at how dumb these people are. They can't even articulate what their what their point is. Whereas my champion is so smart. Look at how erudite he is. And it's so obvious that if you think about it for two seconds, he's clearly right."
I think Bunch really nails it here--not just for something like Jubilee, but news consumption for a lot of people, myself included. I'm aware of the good feeling that arises when I read something that confirms my beliefs, or information that weakens Trump in some way. But I'm also aware of the bad feeling that arises when the opposite happens. Both feelings are powerful enough to influence what information I consume.
This is not a good thing.
What would be a good thing is some mechanism, process, or institution that helps people break out of this; something that will help will take in and be open to truths, whether they make confirm one's beliefs or the opposite.
I never heard of Jubilee prior to the Hasan episode. Sonny makes a great point that the Jerry Springer approach seems to have worked if we are only hearing about it now and not when it was about promoting more civilized, good faith debate. Seems more like a trashy reality show than a legitimate forum for debate, which is unfortunately what people want. We continue to amuse ourselves to death.
What I found deeply unsettling was that Hasan was not given notice that he would be debating far right fascists. He was only told that they were Trump voters, and probably assumed they’d be the type Sarah talks to in her focus groups (hopelessly misinformed and stupid, perhaps, but not deliberately malicious). It seems like they intentionally misled him to heighten the drama and get their viral moment, and unfortunately it succeeded. Luckily he’s a professional and a big boy who knows how to debate and maintain his composure, but it is incredibly unethical and slimy to deliberately throw a minority and an immigrant into the lion’s den without his informed consent, and I’m concerned this might be the standard going forward because it worked as intended.
The problem with these types of programs is that their relatively benign (or even noble) origin stories provide cover for them even after they’ve been enshittified. If liberals and progressives collectively started refusing to come on the show, the far right/MAGA narrative would be that the libs are too afraid to leave their safe spaces to debate with them because blah blah facts don’t care about your feelings blah blah they or some such bullshit, and sadly a lot of non-MAGA people will hear that and think they have a point. So I don’t see much of an off-ramp now.
Another unfortunate aspect of the current era is this replacement of people with actual expertise with influencers or aspiring influencers. If the people behind Jubilee had any semblance of ethics, they would move to an anonymous format where the participants are contractually bound to remain anonymous and refrain from using their participation in the program as promotional material, including sharing clips of themselves on social media. But this will never happen because no one would ever agree to participate without a shot at fame.
Regarding Reddit, I don’t see it in quite the idealized way described here. Anonymity is poisonous even in the context of these niche interests, and these groups can easily become toxic echo chambers (if you really want to spiral, look at r/conservative where the tolerant pro-first amendment mods seem to have a full time job deleting any comments that don’t revere Trump). Even seemingly benign interests that should not be controversial can go off the rails if people feel strongly enough about them.
Something I was once told by a Reddit rep was that Facebook is where you go to read about things you don’t care about written by people you do care about. Reddit is where you go to read about things you do care about written by people you don’t care about. The not caring about people is not a positive thing. I want to be part of a community where I get to see content I care about written by people I care about, and who care about me, but there is no profit in that.
Lily - really appreciate this commentary. You had me at your Postman reference, then went more wide ranging. Only quibble was with your closing thought - let’s make The Bulwark the exception and help this be as profitable financially to The Management as it is for us readers/commenters in intellectual & spiritual terms
Looks to me like Mehdi handed them the rope to hang themselves by allowing them to just talk. They applauded Nazism, and religious zealotry. Its not often you hear folks ask for blasphemy to be made a crime. This was a sanity check as to where the country was heading under MAGA.
My eyes were opened.
Yes, but...Tim Miller in his conversation either with JVL or with Mehdi pointed out that the kids and their followers think *they* owned Mehdi.
Well, those kids and their followers are all Cartman of South Park.
My concern is that they might be the future. I don't feel comfortable dismissing them, even though they are young and stupid.
I think of the scene in Cabaret where the young people sing "Tomorrow Belongs to Me." I think of The Sound of Music, where the daughter's seventeen year old boyfriend becomes a Nazi. I think of the Nazi propaganda film "Hitler Youth Quex." Young people are powerful.
Also, I much prefer Cartman.
I'm thinking of Cartman as a troll, just looking to give everyone the finger. Some of these kids may be true believers but I wonder if many of the loudmouth influencers just want to stand out by sticking it in people's eyes. But, yes, I'm nervous about the youth, especially those who really never knew what it was like before Trump.
Only saw this show from a link a friend sent. Didn't know if it existed.
Pass on please. Rev Dietrich Bonhoeffer on maga.
https://youtu.be/ww47bR86wSc?si=xvJoWoEWDjIA0atk
https://youtu.be/KA5vytp9JPU?si=h0bxrK4GqnUiuLfz
JH, that T.H.I.N.K. acronym is a balm—if only Jubilee used it as a filter instead of a punchline.
Imagine applying “Is it kind?” to a panel where trauma survivors are baited into defending their humanity in front of dudes whose personalities are 80% Reddit and 20% rage protein.
Jubilee doesn’t dismantle the “woke cathedral.” It builds a coliseum. And then invites the mob to vote on who deserves dignity.
What we need isn’t more “debate.”
We need collective shadow work.
We need secular values with soul.
And we need fewer ringmasters turning suffering into content.
As an alt health dude who is independent (80% liberal essentially) it distresses me that alt health people are put in the same box with Holocaust deniers or white supremacists.
Then again the alt health dudes on jubilee seem to just be that level of crazy lol.
I wonder if there will ever be a divorce of RFK and the alt health factions from MAGA and all the deplorable awful... One can hope.
What in the world does “alt health” mean?
Alternative medicine. I would venture that one of its’s best proponents is Andrew Weil. He would probably prefer the term ‘integrative medicine’.He is a Harvard trained MD who does not denigrate traditional western medicine but does hold the position that it should be open to exploring and using other traditions if they prove to be useful.
I’ll be slightly contrarian and see a positive side, the only positive I can imagine. I’m working from a deeply held value that there can be no tolerance for intolerance. These people need to learn that they will not be tolerated in society. From an employer’s perspective, this is about trust and knowing an employee will make sound, reasoned decisions. As well as ensuring mutual trust with all of one’s employees.
These people have always been amongst us, but they’ve felt muzzled. They’ve known that they cannot speak their minds due to the social cost involved - being canceled, or whatever you wish to call it. Now, with a little daylight provided by Republicans and Trump, they feel safe, but they’re forgetting that civil society still exists whose members are not bound to recognize their “free speech”.
Luckily, they do have options with other countries who do have political systems that might suit them better. Here, we have rights that we all enjoy (to varying degrees yes, but broadly). They are free to choose a different system. If I did not believe in individual rights, I would have moved to a different country, because those rights are firmly established in writing here in America.
We do not have to tolerate people who wish to overturn our Constitution. That has never been reality, but it could wind up being so if we choose to tolerate the intolerant.
So on point. As a business owner and, frankly, a proud American, intolerance is the thing that must NOT be tolerated. Fascists will always squawk about the paradox. Let them.
Mr. Hasan responded to those idiotic clowns with wit, integrity, and intelligence. I’d much rather people be honest about their beliefs and exercise their free speech rights. What the people who whine about “woke cancel culture” don’t seem to understand is that there are consequences for everything, and the actual, substantive cancel culture is really on the right. They act like a bunch of spoiled, entitled brats. Who raised them??
Yes. This is - to me - true across the entire MAGA/MAGA-adjacent spectrum on the right.
None of <waves hands> all this whining is about their ability to SPEAK their truth.
It is a primal-scream reaction to their "truth" being seen as disgusting by an ACTUAL majority of the country when, 30-50 years ago, few(er) people would have said, "You know what? You're kind of a P.O.S."
To me, the primary schism in this country is being fought over whether people are to be judged for who they are (ethnicity, national origin, gender, sex, sexual orientation) or for what they DO.
Straight white male Christians used to be relatively exempt from blowback which is why they are so focused on the identity war which isn't (outside of the FAR, far left) about saying that the formerly dominant white-block are LESS important, but that they are no longer MORE important than anyone else.
As someone who reads as that traditional white male demo, I have yet to feel persecuted. Not sure what to tell these people.
Excellent conversation; thank you
That was almost certainly my first and last Jubilee.
We're outliers, never been big TV watchers (didn't have tv/cable for 14 yrs while raising young kids - once they got older and the Internet started taking hold not so much), never been supporters or participants of "social media"- this is the most I've ever done if you call this social media. Seems like we've always been 10 yrs behind pop culture consuming but we are big consumers of news in various forms.
It's tragic to see what's called political debate between parties and politicians has been reduced to entertainment, sound bites and the false narratives constantly fed to people in what remains of "traditional news organizations" and online content.
Rarely is there honest conversation or debate.
On top of that the former Republican party us led by self serving people intent on eroding what's left.
My recommendation is don't watch Jubilee...
Jubilee is what happens when a society forgets the difference between shadow work and clout farming. It’s not debate—it’s spiritual cosplay for algorithms. You don’t get insight, you get incels LARPing as philosophers, trauma survivors fed to trolls, and fascism in a filter-friendly font.
This isn’t a “marketplace of ideas,” it’s a gladiator pit where the most outrageous gets the most airtime. And the prize? A few brand deals, a podcast invite, maybe a gig as the next assistant editor at The Federalist.
If Hell had a YouTube channel, Jubilee would be its soft launch.
Gen X will just have to save the world again.
This was a really thought provoking show. I am left with a few thoughts/connections:
1. Jubilee now seems to me an intentional effort to further dismantle the “woke cathedral” by throwing the intellectual/academic/professional establishment to the lions .
2. I wonder if we will ever get to a place where citizens see a need for a set of agreed upon secular values that promote decency and protect people’s dignity.
3. As a teacher and mom, I’ve loved using the acronym T.H.I.N.K. to help kids consider their speech.
T= Is it true?
H= is it helpful?
I = Is it inspiring?
N= Is it necessary?
K= Is it kind?
As Sonny says, oftentimes the answer is NO. Seems like many grownups would find these questions a helpful guide, too!
I love the acronym. Unfortunately, I suspect this approach is the opposite of what thrives in social media. I would love to be wrong about this!
lol! 😆 💯 % one can always dream.
Old news. My dad said that if Gore Vidal weren't provocative, he'd not be reinvited to guest on Johnnie Carson. The Coldplay video is tabloid journalism published by an individual and now available on the internet rather than at the supermarket register.
In a radical cabal, adopting the most extreme position is incentivized. Medhi's interlocutor's agenda might well be to attract attention and build a career. If he's genuine, and the Karl Schmitt reference might suggest he is, the Jubilee format may have revelatory value. This guest is expressing opinions that the public needs to acknowledge are shared by some percentage of the electorate. Whatever this kid's credentials, he is certainly eligible to vote, and in the voting booth Medhi's asymmetric debating skills yield to equal representation. Empresarios curating a blue ribbon panel may level the playing field and be more informed, but not necessarily explain why Trump is President. The wages of free speech disseminated virtually universally will provide permission for those who would have hesitated to adopt fringe ideas to embrace them. The Overton Window shifts and the antidote is Medhi's rejoinders; more speech is the best disinfectant.
Would love if this was video too!
When everything in our lives, down to our attention, identity, and internal dialogue become commodified, should we be surprised when it becomes traded?
Do we need to participate in any of this? I’ve generally chosen to participate in none of it. It doesn’t matter if one person, or even millions of people chose not to participate. There are billions of others waiting at the doorstep to collect on their platform-provided opportunity.
Joe Pyne, maybe?
The whole episode of watching Connor and the rest, certainly opened my eyes. Shocking, heartbreaking, frightened for the future.
How wide spread is this for Gen A and Z?
That boy (yes I said boy...Connor) seemed to romanticize fascism and Autocracy. I wonder what his favorite games are....
We haven't had to experience it in this country, but we are dangerously close now.
Which article from the Atlantic about YouTube is mentioned? I didn’t have enough information to find it!
I mentioned a couple of different pieces, maybe it's one of these?
The Atlantic's piece on Jubilee was one: https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2025/01/jubilee-media-profile/681411/
And then there was the NY Mag piece on Reddit/AI: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/why-you-are-reading-reddit-a-lot-more-these-days.html
Thank you! The Spencer Kornhaber piece was the one I was looking for. I should have known!
Jubilee sounds like the Jerry Springer Show. It started out being a Phil Donohue type supposedly featuring thoughtful interviews. It never took off and the rest was history. Another similarity I can think of was Melrose Place. It was meant to be 20 something angst drama. Ratings sucked so it became very campy. Unfortunately, Melrose Place and even Jerry Springer were somewhat harmless whereas medium like Jubilee will help lead us to a permanent state of decline.
“The Jerry Springer Show” wasn’t harmless; it was an inflection point which proved the economics of “real people making a spectacle of themselves” as a business model. It’s deeply connected to the evolution of YouTube and other platforms.
I would argue that not all of YouTube is like this trash. I get (delayed) network-news, and comedy (the fabulous Josh Johnson) on YouTube. My daughter learned to hand-make (and finish) some furniture-basics, “from YouTube”. (Having over-extended on a house —a good investment, in Ontario, 10 yrs ago, it’s now worth over twice as much —they needed furniture. The results are not mansion-pieces, but more attractive & way more sturdy than Ikea or Wayfair or the like.)
A lot of YouTube is very good. It is kind of the least horrible place imo. (Vs. the very low bar of FB, Tiktok, Xitter, and even IG.) There are some decent new media news channels that are reality-based and pro-Democracy.
No platform is inherently wrong. But all platforms will inherently choose profit over any other value.