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SETH HALPERN's avatar

I doubt the American public would support a US/NATO occupation of Greater Israel to effect it, because that's what it would take in the foreseeable future.

Or you could just wait (and hope) for Israel to annex the territories, and then root for Nature to take its "logical" (?) course.

Can you force a multinational state into lasting being? I guess there's Belgium, and, for the time being, Spain and the decaying UK. And what's left of Lebanon. Then again, Yugoslavia and the old Soviet Union fell apart.

Yours is ultimately a case for empire. I've actually always felt it was too bad Austria-Hungary disappeared. But maybe that's because my DNA test claimed I shared ancient genes with the Habsburgs' Marie Antoinette. Not too encouraging there either.

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Alain Uwilingiyimana's avatar

The UK is a case of two separate states and an additional province belonging to Ireland that might peacefully go their separate ways peacefully. Not bad. Belgium seems just fine. Spain I am not very familiar with. Lebanon is destabilized by the Israel/Palestinian problem not an internal problem. Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union fell apart because they were ruled by corrupt communist dictators whose rule led to the rot of the state. Either way Israel/Palestine resembles far more like the United States where black and white Americans are learning to live in the same nation after Jim Crow and slavery.

Also the American public currently doesn't support lots of things including arming Israel. Its not like the government listens.

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Alain Uwilingiyimana's avatar

The cases you cited have lasted well, and the separations will less blood if not outright peaceful than the current conflict of Israel/Palestine.

Israel HAS annexed those territories, its delusion to think it hasn't, it has. What hasn't happened is Palestinians getting their full rights as citizens and so we need to end this.

We don't need an occupation, I am assuming the Israelis are friendly so we won't be getting attacked from them, and we have U.S. presence in Germany today, as long as we're not there to fight a war with the locals we would be fine.

As for Palestinians, they gain full rights as citizens, vote, participate in government, get the return of their refugees in Lebanon, Jordan etc... and suddenly those who seek to affect the future of the state from a political path suddenly have the tools and they are confident they would be in much better political position than today, so they have something to gain and so would work in the political system and so need the Americans as guarantors of their rights.

The Israeli Jews too would need American guarantors to ensure in the short term their political rights are maintained. In the long term the political dynamics work themselves out the same way they have worked themselves out between Americans of African descent and those of European descent. Sure its not perfection but its not Jim Crow either and whoever said life should be perfect is a perfect moron lol.

Empire by definition is actually not bad, an empire is where multi ethnic, multi religious and multi states can coexist together under one flag, the difference being that today the empires are not ruled by the iron fist of one man / throne. The United States is by definition an empire. Even without counting the non voting territories (we need to fix that).

But back to the present, the solution is one state for all, the rights for Jews and Palestinians to live in the entire country. Palestinians who lost their homes should be recompensed partially by the UN for screwing them over and the state of Israel can make the other compensations but allow them to live anywhere, the rule of law enshrined to not favor Jews or Muslims or the tiny number of Christians there, remove religion from the state (as we have tried here lol).

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SETH HALPERN's avatar

I have to credit you for optimism. Of course I'm highly skeptical, particularly of some of your premises, but I still find your ultimate outlook refreshing, as you're one of the few people who actually seems to think matters can be worked out.

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Alain Uwilingiyimana's avatar

It can brother, the thing is that we are all human. We are both capable of great and beautiful things and we are also capable of absolutely horrible things that make anyone recoil. The key is to remember that anyone of us can be either one of the two above in the right circumstances. I reject the notion that anyone is permanently bad just like I reject the notion that anyone is permanently good. As an infantry officer in Iraq, I quickly realized that I could do a lot of good, but I could also do a lot of bad.

And I am going to first apologize with how I started this conversation. I misjudged you and for that I am very very sorry.

I will admit to you just like I have admitted to my friends that I am not very rational when it comes to genocide, my father is Hutu, my mother is Tutsi (hence the maternal family being massacred to just one or two cousins left) and my mom, dad and us 5 little children then spent 3 months in deep hiding as they killed everyone around us. I watched my mother get up every day getting ready to be killed. At the same time, the man who ultimately saved my family from the genocide is a man who was responsible for massacres in our area. Like how the f**k do you explain THAT??? So in these conversations I can come in hot and so apologize for that.

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SETH HALPERN's avatar

No need, but thank you. I appreciate it. I am so sorry for what you and yours went through.

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Alain Uwilingiyimana's avatar

That sh*t stays with you man. It really does.

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SETH HALPERN's avatar

With Holocaust survivors it can last for generations.

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Alain Uwilingiyimana's avatar

The scale matters but for individuals, that lasts generations. Its also important that the trauma doesn't lead to new trauma. Those suffering from trauma can exact trauma on others as a reaction to their own. Got to watch out for that. No one is justified regardless of their own history.

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