I’m going to offer a simple solution for the “should I refrain from criticising Charlie Kirk for the moment so as not to inspire tit-for-tat behaviour?” dilemma.
If a person who cherishes liberalism doesn’t support police brutality or vigilante justice against violent criminals, why would they support it when it’s committed against people who just propagate harmful ideas?
Most democracies are less protective than the US of its citizens’ free speech rights. For better or worse, in these countries, saying the stuff Kirk said might make him liable for prosecution. But even in those countries he’d be entitled to due process. Even if you think inflammatory and hateful rhetoric like Kirk’s should be controlled, I assume you’d like it to enforced via legal means not via extrajudicial killings.
What an insane country America has become. The things that made it good in the old days, don't work in the modern world. Rugged individualism is a detriment when you need community.
The murder of JFK wasn't really an assassination per say....It was an infamy kill by and American gun nut. Same with Butler, PA. That kid could just have easily shot Biden or Taylor Swift. The disturbed shooter is determined to get a celebrity kill now. Schools, mass public gatherings don't have "juice" anymore
The lies being told about Kirk by the right are truly amazing. Right wing podcaster Emily Jashinsky yesterday referred to Kirk as a“beacon of conservative moral clarity." And the insanity continues.
Will Sommer, have followed your work since forever ago. I thought, right from the beginning, it was some type of accelerationist. Then, everyone started saying "leftist". Now whispers about groypers... would love to see a piece about the possibility... the online meme coulture that some of his words seem to almost mock in that world. How does the groyper movement intersect with accelerationism? This kids online presence, miniscule as it was, groypers seem to think its possible he was part of the online movement. And the shooting of CK brought big enough a reaction, i can only imagine the celebrating in that corner of the web... i know you are skeptical, and we wont really know until there is more info, but i dont think it is something to discount either.
I am very concerned that the memorial service planned for a stadium that holds 60,000 people has all the ingredients for setting off mass violence all over the country. It could make January 6 and Charlottesville's Unite the Right look small by comparison. All that has to happen is for Trump and Vance to issue the call to "take back the country" and issue permission for people to commit violence against anyone they believe are enemies. People imagine that a situation like Rwanda could never happen here. It already has in the past in limited geographic locations like Tulsa and Wilmington.
Epatstien is n issue still. And just how pissed off south Koreans are after goergia is an issue. They, as with I am, are passed. After e50 billion dollar commitment to build here, PhDs from Korea to start it were shackled and chained.
Yet you all are distracted by an assassination of a racist.
All assassination attempts and mass hooting are done by crazy people. They are crazies, no matter the political alignment.
No matter whether it was the democrat state senator and her husband being killed or pelosi's husband being attacked by a man with hammer..... these are crazy people.
Charlie Kirk was the Republican Obama, young, energetic, physically attractive, sharp, fast on his feet. Obviously the messages were totally different. The Right wing has never gotten over how dynamic and "cool" Obama was. They just don't have that in Mike Johnson or Ted Cruz or MTG. They have a circus freak show of weird people on the right. They had big plans for Kirk. He was probably going to be the post Trump guy, not Vance
Agree with this, but that doesn't explain why the mainstream media aren't telling their readers about Charlie Kirk being a Christian Nationalist. That is an unforced error on their part, and is normalizing something that should NOT be normalized.
People are scared. They know the Republicans from Trump down will go crazy and escalate, never de escalate. Pre surrender, defensive crouch. Kirk was a polished and "intellectual" right wing troll. But just listen to a transcript of what he said and its replacement theory, poison the blood stuff. He's smart he knew he was putting people in harms way for money , access and power
while freedom of speech is an honored tradition in our country it has also been enforced that does not give one to cry fire in a crowded theatre
due to some unfortunate decisions by we the people and the courts it is becoming quite evident that people can yell fire often and with anti democratic impulses here we are todayt
we the people need to start that fire yelling would apply with actions using data to threaten fellow americans thats a felony lets get the language straight.
As MSM tip toes around speaking what needs to be said and the MAGA folks "Jesus Wash" him, I appreciate John Pavovitz's comments today. I think it's possible to hold two ideas at once: Charlie Kirk's murder was not a good thing and Charlie Kirk was a hateful, divisive human being.
"Charlie Kirk’s murder is a despicable, vile, fully condemnable act, but that doesn’t erase the incalculable harm he has done to people of color, to women, to immigrants, to queer people, as well as to the minds of young Conservative white men.
And no Jesus-washing, reality-covering revisionist history from MAGA Christians and Republican politicians will cover the reality that the compassionate, kind, neighbor-loving, diversity-embracing, foreigner-welcoming teachings of Jesus are fully antithetical to the caustic, divisive, dehumanizing empire Kirk built.
Jesus’ central command was to love. How exactly did Charlie Kirk love immigrants and people of color and women and Trans teens and Muslims and Democrats and atheists?"
Some smart Democrat in Congress needs to author the "Charlie Kirk Sensible Gun Control Act" and watch the GOP vote it down. I'd pay money to see that.
I do not condone gun violence and certainly not political violence, but as for Kirk, the mantra that keeps going through my head comes from the Bible, Galatians 6:7 "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap."
Is it too soon to admit that I am SO BORED with Charlie Kirk? I don't care very much about him and I care even less about who shot him.
And just to be super edge-y, I'm not even going to qualify all of the above the with the usual "It's a tragedy for him and his family" or "political violence is never a solution" etc, etc, etc.
For two days I have read and listened to everything, and itched to talk about my thoughts and feelings. Thank you JVL, Tim, Sarah, Andrew, Bill, Will and Cam, as well as the entire Bulwark community, for your reactions. I have nothing new to add.
I will mention that my own thoughts have changed. Initially I believed that out of respect for the departed and his family and in the interest of breaking the cycle, it was ok how mainstream media was sort of canonizing Kirk. And I thought it a good thing that MSNBC fired Matt Dowd for suggesting that Kirk helped create the climate leading to his own death.
But I was wrong. Especially because Trump and MAGA spewed more divisive and misdirected hate making things worse, it's now clear that nothing is gained by ignoring Kirk's or MAGA's hate or treating it as ok. It is as wrong to canonize Charlie Kirk any more as it was to canonize Ashli Babbitt. It's ok to attack racism, Nazism, misogyny, intolerance, violence or other forms of hate wherever and whenever we find it. Challenging hate speech does not perpetuate the cycle of violence but may be the only way to end it. I never hated Charlie Kirk, and respect anyone's right to say even hateful things, but I can and should continue to challenge what he stood for.
If you run your mouth long enough, and you attack too many of the wrong people, you are putting yourself at grave risk in a country where you can buy an Uzi in a blister-card at Walmart. A country where we leave crazy people on the street to rot. The anger machine we've constructed on places like Youtube and FB and X is beginning to do its dark, inevitable work. Maybe what we can learn from this tragedy is that more of us should learn how to shut our mouths and think about what's going on in the country. Thinking is more productive activity than screaming.
I’m going to offer a simple solution for the “should I refrain from criticising Charlie Kirk for the moment so as not to inspire tit-for-tat behaviour?” dilemma.
If a person who cherishes liberalism doesn’t support police brutality or vigilante justice against violent criminals, why would they support it when it’s committed against people who just propagate harmful ideas?
Most democracies are less protective than the US of its citizens’ free speech rights. For better or worse, in these countries, saying the stuff Kirk said might make him liable for prosecution. But even in those countries he’d be entitled to due process. Even if you think inflammatory and hateful rhetoric like Kirk’s should be controlled, I assume you’d like it to enforced via legal means not via extrajudicial killings.
What an insane country America has become. The things that made it good in the old days, don't work in the modern world. Rugged individualism is a detriment when you need community.
Why refer to his murder as an assassination? It’s murder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination
The murder of JFK wasn't really an assassination per say....It was an infamy kill by and American gun nut. Same with Butler, PA. That kid could just have easily shot Biden or Taylor Swift. The disturbed shooter is determined to get a celebrity kill now. Schools, mass public gatherings don't have "juice" anymore
The lies being told about Kirk by the right are truly amazing. Right wing podcaster Emily Jashinsky yesterday referred to Kirk as a“beacon of conservative moral clarity." And the insanity continues.
Seems like the recipe for a successful MAGA career is to be the first to sense which way the MAGA wind is blowing and then seem to lead it.
You git it!
In the rush to blame the radical Left for Charlie Kirk’s assassination, this tragedy was buried in the news:
Two students critically wounded, and the 16 year old shooter shot himself dead.
Evergreen High School shooter embraced Columbine, antisemitism and white supremacy online
https://coloradosun.com/2025/09/12/evergreen-high-school-shooting-suspect-social-media/
Will Sommer, have followed your work since forever ago. I thought, right from the beginning, it was some type of accelerationist. Then, everyone started saying "leftist". Now whispers about groypers... would love to see a piece about the possibility... the online meme coulture that some of his words seem to almost mock in that world. How does the groyper movement intersect with accelerationism? This kids online presence, miniscule as it was, groypers seem to think its possible he was part of the online movement. And the shooting of CK brought big enough a reaction, i can only imagine the celebrating in that corner of the web... i know you are skeptical, and we wont really know until there is more info, but i dont think it is something to discount either.
I am very concerned that the memorial service planned for a stadium that holds 60,000 people has all the ingredients for setting off mass violence all over the country. It could make January 6 and Charlottesville's Unite the Right look small by comparison. All that has to happen is for Trump and Vance to issue the call to "take back the country" and issue permission for people to commit violence against anyone they believe are enemies. People imagine that a situation like Rwanda could never happen here. It already has in the past in limited geographic locations like Tulsa and Wilmington.
Epatstien is n issue still. And just how pissed off south Koreans are after goergia is an issue. They, as with I am, are passed. After e50 billion dollar commitment to build here, PhDs from Korea to start it were shackled and chained.
Yet you all are distracted by an assassination of a racist.
All assassination attempts and mass hooting are done by crazy people. They are crazies, no matter the political alignment.
No matter whether it was the democrat state senator and her husband being killed or pelosi's husband being attacked by a man with hammer..... these are crazy people.
....now teump has a real distraction.
I hope you, the bulwark, do not fall into it.
Why is every media outlet treating Kirk's murder like the Kennedy assassination?
For the clicks, of course. So-called "news" these days is infotainment.
Charlie Kirk was the Republican Obama, young, energetic, physically attractive, sharp, fast on his feet. Obviously the messages were totally different. The Right wing has never gotten over how dynamic and "cool" Obama was. They just don't have that in Mike Johnson or Ted Cruz or MTG. They have a circus freak show of weird people on the right. They had big plans for Kirk. He was probably going to be the post Trump guy, not Vance
Agree with this, but that doesn't explain why the mainstream media aren't telling their readers about Charlie Kirk being a Christian Nationalist. That is an unforced error on their part, and is normalizing something that should NOT be normalized.
People are scared. They know the Republicans from Trump down will go crazy and escalate, never de escalate. Pre surrender, defensive crouch. Kirk was a polished and "intellectual" right wing troll. But just listen to a transcript of what he said and its replacement theory, poison the blood stuff. He's smart he knew he was putting people in harms way for money , access and power
while freedom of speech is an honored tradition in our country it has also been enforced that does not give one to cry fire in a crowded theatre
due to some unfortunate decisions by we the people and the courts it is becoming quite evident that people can yell fire often and with anti democratic impulses here we are todayt
we the people need to start that fire yelling would apply with actions using data to threaten fellow americans thats a felony lets get the language straight.
As MSM tip toes around speaking what needs to be said and the MAGA folks "Jesus Wash" him, I appreciate John Pavovitz's comments today. I think it's possible to hold two ideas at once: Charlie Kirk's murder was not a good thing and Charlie Kirk was a hateful, divisive human being.
https://johnpavlovitz.substack.com/p/the-shameful-christian-idolatry-and?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=2037902&post_id=173432107&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=9azvj&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
"Charlie Kirk’s murder is a despicable, vile, fully condemnable act, but that doesn’t erase the incalculable harm he has done to people of color, to women, to immigrants, to queer people, as well as to the minds of young Conservative white men.
And no Jesus-washing, reality-covering revisionist history from MAGA Christians and Republican politicians will cover the reality that the compassionate, kind, neighbor-loving, diversity-embracing, foreigner-welcoming teachings of Jesus are fully antithetical to the caustic, divisive, dehumanizing empire Kirk built.
Jesus’ central command was to love. How exactly did Charlie Kirk love immigrants and people of color and women and Trans teens and Muslims and Democrats and atheists?"
Some smart Democrat in Congress needs to author the "Charlie Kirk Sensible Gun Control Act" and watch the GOP vote it down. I'd pay money to see that.
I do not condone gun violence and certainly not political violence, but as for Kirk, the mantra that keeps going through my head comes from the Bible, Galatians 6:7 "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap."
Is it too soon to admit that I am SO BORED with Charlie Kirk? I don't care very much about him and I care even less about who shot him.
And just to be super edge-y, I'm not even going to qualify all of the above the with the usual "It's a tragedy for him and his family" or "political violence is never a solution" etc, etc, etc.
YAWN.
For two days I have read and listened to everything, and itched to talk about my thoughts and feelings. Thank you JVL, Tim, Sarah, Andrew, Bill, Will and Cam, as well as the entire Bulwark community, for your reactions. I have nothing new to add.
I will mention that my own thoughts have changed. Initially I believed that out of respect for the departed and his family and in the interest of breaking the cycle, it was ok how mainstream media was sort of canonizing Kirk. And I thought it a good thing that MSNBC fired Matt Dowd for suggesting that Kirk helped create the climate leading to his own death.
But I was wrong. Especially because Trump and MAGA spewed more divisive and misdirected hate making things worse, it's now clear that nothing is gained by ignoring Kirk's or MAGA's hate or treating it as ok. It is as wrong to canonize Charlie Kirk any more as it was to canonize Ashli Babbitt. It's ok to attack racism, Nazism, misogyny, intolerance, violence or other forms of hate wherever and whenever we find it. Challenging hate speech does not perpetuate the cycle of violence but may be the only way to end it. I never hated Charlie Kirk, and respect anyone's right to say even hateful things, but I can and should continue to challenge what he stood for.
If you run your mouth long enough, and you attack too many of the wrong people, you are putting yourself at grave risk in a country where you can buy an Uzi in a blister-card at Walmart. A country where we leave crazy people on the street to rot. The anger machine we've constructed on places like Youtube and FB and X is beginning to do its dark, inevitable work. Maybe what we can learn from this tragedy is that more of us should learn how to shut our mouths and think about what's going on in the country. Thinking is more productive activity than screaming.