What would Trump supporters do with the cognitive dissonance produced when the leader of a flag waving political movement is revealed to have called our war dead "losers" and "suckers?" They will simply refuse to believe it, and the mental gymnastics will involve believing that John Kelly is somehow corrupt.
Yes, everyone is corrupt *except* Trump, who has been chosen by The Divine to "save" America. I wouldn't trust these people to operate a crayon, let alone vote.
I don't think they feel the cognitive dissonance. To them war produces guys with a chest full of medals. But thinking about the dead, the maimed, and those whose PTSD is very obvious makes them feel all icky inside, so they avoid thinking about that part entirely. Sort of like WW II movies...heroes. The only one that dealt with the aftermath in any accurate way was The Best Years of Our Lives in 1946. They skip over the Vietnam War movies as too icky.
MAGAs will always find a way to justify it, while the finest Trumpite thinkers say "Pay no attention to what he says! .... judges! .... woke tyranny! .... the Democrats are Marxists! .... This is our last chance to save America from the left!"
I once got into a discussion about the stolen election and was told that "2000 Mules" proved that it was stolen. As part of my response, I noted that even Bill Barr thought it was "unimpressive". That's when I found out that Barr is a member of the Deep State. If it can happen to Bill Barr, it can certainly happen to John Kelly.
Many donтАЩt know or donтАЩt believe the true reports of his character defects. TheyтАЩve been conditioned to believe the attacks and reports are exaggerations and lies.
That doesn't mean they're off the hook, Stephen. We have 50+ years of documentation that shows Trump is a wretched piece of filth. If these people are ignorant to those facts, that's because they're choosing to be so. My own theory is they support Trump just to piss people off and they don't care about the danger that he poses to our national and global security.
In my opinion, you're underestimating how effective Trump and his media allies have been at discrediting what they call the mainstream media. If its in the New York Times, its false.
Oh, I don't underestimate it at all, Lewis. I simply people that these people want to be lied to because that way, they're not responsible for their choices. Keep in mind that Trump's more egregious public moments -- like calling for Mark Milley's execution, or the termination of the Constitution -- happened on Truth Social and is part of the public record. Has he lost any support for those comments amongst the base?
Trumpler and media allies think American people are stupid - information-challenged, prone to conspiracy theories, easily manipulated, having cultish behavior.
Hmm, what to do about it as reach the edge of cliff, after watching our democracy slip away one day at a time for 8+ years...?
And remember: The Economist is a BRITISH "newspaper" in magazine form that appears weekly. Their "Leader" (editorial) this week is also much more detailed than either TFG or any of his lemmings could read or understand. It is written for those who think about things.
And, I think that because all they know/have experienced is America as a democracy/republic/whatever, because it appears to be stable, they think it is a feature of nature and can not change. And even if tRump gets back in, with all the attendant slime and freaks, that everything will just keep merrily going along.
People who are conditioned to follow faith instead of facts, are dangerous to any democracy. ThatтАЩs why the wolves are so suddenly fond of Christianity as a weapon.
I have felt for a long time that the more fundamentally religious you are, the less you are on the side of democracy. For democracy requires compromise, a willingness to listen to other views, and admitting that you donтАЩt have all the answers. None of those things describe people who are steeped in fundamentalist religions. Their views boil down to these two things: (1) they believe they know what the rules are, and (2) they donтАЩt believe they are allowed to change the rules.
My brother has stopped talking to me since he became a fundamentalist. Not at first. He tried for years to get me and my husband and kids on board his totally fundamentalist train. Finally gave up and won't speak to us anymore. His wife occasionally calls from a pay phone.
One thing I wonder; why is religiosity causing so much division now, here? Especially as we have become more secular as a nation, according to polling data. I can only assume itтАЩs something about Trumpism which is so counterintuitive considering what an ungodly specimen he is, not even attempting to mask his hateful thoughts. It must be a fluke convergence of forces I donтАЩt understand.
IтАЩll give you my (probably overly simplified) two cents. I think what we are seeing today is simply a culmination of what has been brewing for awhile. For many years, those in the (Protestant) religious establishment were first among equals. They kind of got what they wanted. IтАЩm old enough to remember Blue Laws for example (only stores selling fundamental needs like food and medicine were allowed to be open on Sunday). No one who didnтАЩt claim a religious belief could possibly rise to national political prominence. And religion had to be the right kind of religion. JFK being a Catholic was a big deal at the time. He even had to basically pledge not to listen to the Pope if he were elected.
That started to change forty or fifty years ago as the nation became more secular. Now the religious establishment didnтАЩt get to call all of the shots. People started objecting to religious symbols and practices in public life. First it was the Supreme Court outlawing prayer in public schools. The reaction to that decision was similar to Mike JohnsonтАЩs reaction to the teaching of evolution. Lots of bad things are going to happen if we take God out of the classroom.
And most of all, people started taking seriously the separation of church and state enshrined in the Constitution (despite what folks like MTG and Boebert say I canтАЩt see any possibility of interpreting the Constitution any other way). And that, I believe, is the root of the problem. For all the good that religious folks do (and they certainly do a lot of good), many just canтАЩt accept the idea that their religious beliefs donтАЩt allow them to do whatever they want to do (like in the past). For example, they feel that if they want to discriminate against gays, they should be allowed to.
So this has been going on for some time. Just think how long we have heard about the phony тАЬWar on ChristmasтАЭ.
I think the biggest thing that has happened in recent years to antagonize the Religious Right has been the rise of gay rights and, more recently, transgender rights. They fought gay marriage long and hard with all kinds of disingenuous arguments. But they lost. But they refused to completely back down so they came up with various тАЬreligious libertyтАЭ arguments to, in their minds, limit the damage.
I can only assume that they felt that, if they canтАЩt win the gay marriage battle, what battles can they win? And in their minds the trend wasnтАЩt positive. So they went looking for a champion for their side, someone who would push back against the secular tide flooding our country. And they didnтАЩt much care who it was as long as they said the right things. ItтАЩs something of a move born of desperation.
There are two reasons for the divisiveness now. One, of course, is Trump. He turns the temperature up on everything and gives his followers license to do the same (every issue starts at тАЬ9тАЭ before being turned up to тАЬ11тАЭ). The second is a confluence that you mentioned. It is the confluence between the GOP power structure (who want to win elections) and the Religious Right (who believe that the other side is pure evil and must be kept out of power by any means necessary).
The common thread here is this: democracy is important, but not as important as winning elections.
Just ask Bill Barr who said he would vote for Trump in 2024 (despite calling him unqualified) because тАЬthe progressive Left and the Secular Humanists are the biggest threats to this countryтАЭ. That doesnтАЩt sound like someone all that worried about American democracy.
We are of a similar age; I remember the Sunday Blue Laws too. And all the liberating legal rulings that followed. I suspect gay rights was the straw that broke their tolerance, as you mention. And my assessment is they knew it was too late to go after gay Americans because it was already at mainstream acceptance - so they went after transgender rights instead. Most Americans donтАЩt personally have a transgender relative, friend, or acquaintance so it was a тАЬsafeтАЭ group to attack. But I now see that tide turning. A few years ago comments in the NYT were very negative on transgender rights, but thatтАЩs changed, probably in response to the right wing meanness. Liberals didnтАЩt want to make common cause with MAGAs. In a paradox the cause of transgender rights has benefited from the viciousness of the right wing attacks.
We sure have lost ground on separation of church and state! With more on the way, if we canтАЩt stop this tide.
Trump changed everything with his reptilian skill at using any wedge issue. But I will always be negative on religion and its adherents, for gleefully accepting and advancing such an evil person. Talk about strange bedfellows. And rank hypocrisy, for all to see. This Supreme Court is playing a big role in allowing religion into government and protecting religion above individual freedom.
Thanks for your answer; itтАЩs such an interesting, important topic, worthy of discussion.
Two further comments (and thanks for your response):
1) I could write pages on the religious liberty issue, but the bottom line is this: itтАЩs clear to me that the Religious Right wants to be able to use their religious beliefs as a reason not to have to obey duly passed laws. For example, businesses canтАЩt refuse services to anyone based on their sex, age, ethnicity, religion, national origin (and probably some others in this list). But they can if they claim that it violates their religious beliefs. So their religious beliefs not only тАЬtrumpтАЭ the legislatures, but it also тАЬtrumpsтАЭ any other belief that someone might use (try saying that you donтАЩt want to serve a Black customer in your restaurant because you donтАЩt believe that the races should mix and see how far you get). They simply want special treatment.
2) TrumpтАЩs support from the Evangelicals is probably the most amazing about-face that I have seen in a long time (second place would go to the anti-abortion rights groups who, pre-Dobbs, said that abortion policy is a state issue and then immediately post-Dobbs wanted a national ban) and would have severely damaged their credibility in a saner world. For years, their message was basically тАЬthe means justifies the endsтАЭ. In an instant, it became тАЬthe ends justifies the meansтАЭ.
MAGAs have always said that critics are swallowing "media narratives" about Trump -- even when people can play the videos that show him displaying his wretched character all by himself,
Trump voters are obviously not much offended by the manifest awfulness. Trump fans clearly love the awfulness.
There's no better example of this than Trump's Evangelical supporters. It was only a few years ago that the "moral character" of the President was paramount. Lack of "moral character" was almost an impeachable offense. Now, they view "moral character" as so 1998.
If Kelly had character, he wouldnтАЩt have taken the chief-of-staff job. He and we all knew very well at that point what the Orange Pustule was all about.
Right? Kelly et al just sound bitter and whiny. Now that they've been kicked off the gravy train, they want to "tell all" that happened on said train. The "half day bounce" was the shelf life of his book.
They love it because they are narrow minded suckers that hope he will hurt the people they hate. They don't really care about the troops, only that if they fight, they must win, to make us feel like winners. The wounded and dead ARE losers because they aren't Rambo or GIJoe.
I think a simpler explanation is the electorate doesn't care about character. If it did, Trump wouldn't have been elected in 2016.
What would Trump supporters do with the cognitive dissonance produced when the leader of a flag waving political movement is revealed to have called our war dead "losers" and "suckers?" They will simply refuse to believe it, and the mental gymnastics will involve believing that John Kelly is somehow corrupt.
Yes, everyone is corrupt *except* Trump, who has been chosen by The Divine to "save" America. I wouldn't trust these people to operate a crayon, let alone vote.
That made me spit out my coffee! You nailed it!
I don't think they feel the cognitive dissonance. To them war produces guys with a chest full of medals. But thinking about the dead, the maimed, and those whose PTSD is very obvious makes them feel all icky inside, so they avoid thinking about that part entirely. Sort of like WW II movies...heroes. The only one that dealt with the aftermath in any accurate way was The Best Years of Our Lives in 1946. They skip over the Vietnam War movies as too icky.
You got that right.
MAGAs will always find a way to justify it, while the finest Trumpite thinkers say "Pay no attention to what he says! .... judges! .... woke tyranny! .... the Democrats are Marxists! .... This is our last chance to save America from the left!"
I once got into a discussion about the stolen election and was told that "2000 Mules" proved that it was stolen. As part of my response, I noted that even Bill Barr thought it was "unimpressive". That's when I found out that Barr is a member of the Deep State. If it can happen to Bill Barr, it can certainly happen to John Kelly.
My retired military officer family members love him. They hate their former congresswoman, Liz Cheney.
That is so weird. My formerly Navy son regards TFG as a traitor to the oath to the Constitution which he also swore to, and still feels bound by.
Why??
Cognitive dissonanceтАж
Many donтАЩt know or donтАЩt believe the true reports of his character defects. TheyтАЩve been conditioned to believe the attacks and reports are exaggerations and lies.
That doesn't mean they're off the hook, Stephen. We have 50+ years of documentation that shows Trump is a wretched piece of filth. If these people are ignorant to those facts, that's because they're choosing to be so. My own theory is they support Trump just to piss people off and they don't care about the danger that he poses to our national and global security.
In my opinion, you're underestimating how effective Trump and his media allies have been at discrediting what they call the mainstream media. If its in the New York Times, its false.
Oh, I don't underestimate it at all, Lewis. I simply people that these people want to be lied to because that way, they're not responsible for their choices. Keep in mind that Trump's more egregious public moments -- like calling for Mark Milley's execution, or the termination of the Constitution -- happened on Truth Social and is part of the public record. Has he lost any support for those comments amongst the base?
No,and too many other people.
Also,"you gonna believe your lying eyes or me". Trump 2020
Trumpler and media allies think American people are stupid - information-challenged, prone to conspiracy theories, easily manipulated, having cultish behavior.
Hmm, what to do about it as reach the edge of cliff, after watching our democracy slip away one day at a time for 8+ years...?
And remember: The Economist is a BRITISH "newspaper" in magazine form that appears weekly. Their "Leader" (editorial) this week is also much more detailed than either TFG or any of his lemmings could read or understand. It is written for those who think about things.
That sure is a lot of people, communist,marxist,fascists, liberals, vermin,rinos.
And, I think that because all they know/have experienced is America as a democracy/republic/whatever, because it appears to be stable, they think it is a feature of nature and can not change. And even if tRump gets back in, with all the attendant slime and freaks, that everything will just keep merrily going along.
Even of Trump gets the US to fight along side Russia to capture all of Eastern Europe.
Sometimes I feel like we're living in an episode of The Twilight Zone.
I am stealing "their complete loserness" from you.
Just so you know=:-)
Omg, truth is so hard to bear.
Going over a cliff in a slow motion...ЁЯШ▒
People who are conditioned to follow faith instead of facts, are dangerous to any democracy. ThatтАЩs why the wolves are so suddenly fond of Christianity as a weapon.
One word ;cult.
Once again, right on GG.
Evidenced by unending trouble in Middle East.
Religion, religious extremism, amplifies ignorance, controls & divides people, causes warsтАж
I have felt for a long time that the more fundamentally religious you are, the less you are on the side of democracy. For democracy requires compromise, a willingness to listen to other views, and admitting that you donтАЩt have all the answers. None of those things describe people who are steeped in fundamentalist religions. Their views boil down to these two things: (1) they believe they know what the rules are, and (2) they donтАЩt believe they are allowed to change the rules.
My brother has stopped talking to me since he became a fundamentalist. Not at first. He tried for years to get me and my husband and kids on board his totally fundamentalist train. Finally gave up and won't speak to us anymore. His wife occasionally calls from a pay phone.
One thing I wonder; why is religiosity causing so much division now, here? Especially as we have become more secular as a nation, according to polling data. I can only assume itтАЩs something about Trumpism which is so counterintuitive considering what an ungodly specimen he is, not even attempting to mask his hateful thoughts. It must be a fluke convergence of forces I donтАЩt understand.
IтАЩll give you my (probably overly simplified) two cents. I think what we are seeing today is simply a culmination of what has been brewing for awhile. For many years, those in the (Protestant) religious establishment were first among equals. They kind of got what they wanted. IтАЩm old enough to remember Blue Laws for example (only stores selling fundamental needs like food and medicine were allowed to be open on Sunday). No one who didnтАЩt claim a religious belief could possibly rise to national political prominence. And religion had to be the right kind of religion. JFK being a Catholic was a big deal at the time. He even had to basically pledge not to listen to the Pope if he were elected.
That started to change forty or fifty years ago as the nation became more secular. Now the religious establishment didnтАЩt get to call all of the shots. People started objecting to religious symbols and practices in public life. First it was the Supreme Court outlawing prayer in public schools. The reaction to that decision was similar to Mike JohnsonтАЩs reaction to the teaching of evolution. Lots of bad things are going to happen if we take God out of the classroom.
And most of all, people started taking seriously the separation of church and state enshrined in the Constitution (despite what folks like MTG and Boebert say I canтАЩt see any possibility of interpreting the Constitution any other way). And that, I believe, is the root of the problem. For all the good that religious folks do (and they certainly do a lot of good), many just canтАЩt accept the idea that their religious beliefs donтАЩt allow them to do whatever they want to do (like in the past). For example, they feel that if they want to discriminate against gays, they should be allowed to.
So this has been going on for some time. Just think how long we have heard about the phony тАЬWar on ChristmasтАЭ.
I think the biggest thing that has happened in recent years to antagonize the Religious Right has been the rise of gay rights and, more recently, transgender rights. They fought gay marriage long and hard with all kinds of disingenuous arguments. But they lost. But they refused to completely back down so they came up with various тАЬreligious libertyтАЭ arguments to, in their minds, limit the damage.
I can only assume that they felt that, if they canтАЩt win the gay marriage battle, what battles can they win? And in their minds the trend wasnтАЩt positive. So they went looking for a champion for their side, someone who would push back against the secular tide flooding our country. And they didnтАЩt much care who it was as long as they said the right things. ItтАЩs something of a move born of desperation.
There are two reasons for the divisiveness now. One, of course, is Trump. He turns the temperature up on everything and gives his followers license to do the same (every issue starts at тАЬ9тАЭ before being turned up to тАЬ11тАЭ). The second is a confluence that you mentioned. It is the confluence between the GOP power structure (who want to win elections) and the Religious Right (who believe that the other side is pure evil and must be kept out of power by any means necessary).
The common thread here is this: democracy is important, but not as important as winning elections.
Just ask Bill Barr who said he would vote for Trump in 2024 (despite calling him unqualified) because тАЬthe progressive Left and the Secular Humanists are the biggest threats to this countryтАЭ. That doesnтАЩt sound like someone all that worried about American democracy.
We are of a similar age; I remember the Sunday Blue Laws too. And all the liberating legal rulings that followed. I suspect gay rights was the straw that broke their tolerance, as you mention. And my assessment is they knew it was too late to go after gay Americans because it was already at mainstream acceptance - so they went after transgender rights instead. Most Americans donтАЩt personally have a transgender relative, friend, or acquaintance so it was a тАЬsafeтАЭ group to attack. But I now see that tide turning. A few years ago comments in the NYT were very negative on transgender rights, but thatтАЩs changed, probably in response to the right wing meanness. Liberals didnтАЩt want to make common cause with MAGAs. In a paradox the cause of transgender rights has benefited from the viciousness of the right wing attacks.
We sure have lost ground on separation of church and state! With more on the way, if we canтАЩt stop this tide.
Trump changed everything with his reptilian skill at using any wedge issue. But I will always be negative on religion and its adherents, for gleefully accepting and advancing such an evil person. Talk about strange bedfellows. And rank hypocrisy, for all to see. This Supreme Court is playing a big role in allowing religion into government and protecting religion above individual freedom.
Thanks for your answer; itтАЩs such an interesting, important topic, worthy of discussion.
Two further comments (and thanks for your response):
1) I could write pages on the religious liberty issue, but the bottom line is this: itтАЩs clear to me that the Religious Right wants to be able to use their religious beliefs as a reason not to have to obey duly passed laws. For example, businesses canтАЩt refuse services to anyone based on their sex, age, ethnicity, religion, national origin (and probably some others in this list). But they can if they claim that it violates their religious beliefs. So their religious beliefs not only тАЬtrumpтАЭ the legislatures, but it also тАЬtrumpsтАЭ any other belief that someone might use (try saying that you donтАЩt want to serve a Black customer in your restaurant because you donтАЩt believe that the races should mix and see how far you get). They simply want special treatment.
2) TrumpтАЩs support from the Evangelicals is probably the most amazing about-face that I have seen in a long time (second place would go to the anti-abortion rights groups who, pre-Dobbs, said that abortion policy is a state issue and then immediately post-Dobbs wanted a national ban) and would have severely damaged their credibility in a saner world. For years, their message was basically тАЬthe means justifies the endsтАЭ. In an instant, it became тАЬthe ends justifies the meansтАЭ.
MAGAs have always said that critics are swallowing "media narratives" about Trump -- even when people can play the videos that show him displaying his wretched character all by himself,
Trump voters are obviously not much offended by the manifest awfulness. Trump fans clearly love the awfulness.
Amplifying and harnessing grievance, resentment, anger, hate. Just like HitlerтАж
There's no better example of this than Trump's Evangelical supporters. It was only a few years ago that the "moral character" of the President was paramount. Lack of "moral character" was almost an impeachable offense. Now, they view "moral character" as so 1998.
If Kelly had character, he wouldnтАЩt have taken the chief-of-staff job. He and we all knew very well at that point what the Orange Pustule was all about.
Right? Kelly et al just sound bitter and whiny. Now that they've been kicked off the gravy train, they want to "tell all" that happened on said train. The "half day bounce" was the shelf life of his book.
They love it because they are narrow minded suckers that hope he will hurt the people they hate. They don't really care about the troops, only that if they fight, they must win, to make us feel like winners. The wounded and dead ARE losers because they aren't Rambo or GIJoe.