Afghanistan withdrawal, huh? The one Trump negotiated that you continue to blame on Biden so you can find something to pretend that Dems don't go harder on national security than conservatives?
At what point does repeating something that you know is a little exaggerated over and over become propaganda?
Afghanistan withdrawal, huh? The one Trump negotiated that you continue to blame on Biden so you can find something to pretend that Dems don't go harder on national security than conservatives?
At what point does repeating something that you know is a little exaggerated over and over become propaganda?
Oh, and the rollout of the health website! That caused people pain for .... I don't know, maybe half an hour once? Yeah. Great comparisons here. If only DOGE could've done the rollout as their internet adventures are doing so much better, right? Eyes on the prize. Keeping things in perspective.
I can give you some horrible things Democrats actually did instead of Trump that actually hurt people you can use as examples. You really can dive a little deeper here instead of repeating the FOX News lines. For example, let's talk about drone warfare. We are apparently at war with Yemen? Did you know that? How did all this indiscriminate drone warfare unauthorized by Congress get started? What about Wall St and Silicon Valley bailouts? There's a great big mess that Dems keep stepping in. So many things you could bring up that would make actual sense in this context, but we get the FOX hits.
We don't get out without honesty. The Afghanistan withdrawal was arranged by Trump and Pompeo. Biden probably should've ignored their plans, but the voters were definite that we wanted out of Afghanistan. The ACA was a good policy that made America stronger. Losing it will make us weaker.
How about you admit those things and then we can talk about how honesty can help us get out of this mess?
Respectfully, Biden still botched Afghanistan, and owns that 100%. Yes, the Trump admin negotiated the withdrawal, but Biden was responsible for the proper execution of it. This doesn’t mean Biden was a bad president. I also believe he did an exceptional job pulling NATO together and supporting Ukraine, as well as his leadership supporting Israel after the Oct 7th Hamas terrorist attack.
Look to Vietnam as a comparison. Over 60 servicemen were killed during the last month of the chaotic withdrawal. It's a miracle that the Afghanistan operation went as well as it did after 20 years of war and Trump's worst negotiated peace deal in history (he released Taliban 5,000 terrorist fighters back to the battlefield).
I don’t recall hearing anything like that from the media either, and I followed it closely across all media outlets. The media narrative was set on the first day from 15-20 seconds of video at the airport. You know, the clips of people running alongside the plane and packed in a cargo hold that outlets ran over and over.
Of course. Why did I bother to ask? Trump has corrupted the MSM part of our free press.
But, cable and broadcast news is not where most people get their news and their audiences are declining. So CBS’ cave may not matter all that much. The growth of independent news, like the Bulwark, and their social-media-sharing-ready content getting widely shared is a good thing.
Hubby McGee, Biden changed the withdrawal date from May to August to get more people out. When Felon Trump left office he had no logistical plan, none at all, to complete the orderly evacuation of either personnel or equipment within the agreed timeframe. If you would go to white house.gov you may see that Biden’s administration was not given any plans for evacuation because there were none. But the withdrawal date was three months away. Biden did want a September withdrawal date. How do you think the Taliban would have accepted that! 100%? No!
Katherine again, respectfully, no excuse. Biden was president. I'm a retired Army officer. 90 days is plenty of time to plan an effective withdrawal. Respectfully, please don't patronize me with a whitehouse.gov link. I'm a multiple deployed Iraq War vet - and led soldiers down range - and was permanently disabled while preparing for a deployment to Afghanistan. It is unwise to fall into the trap of believing "your guy" can do no wrong on military operations. He fucked up. Hundreds if not thousands of Afghan refugees died because of this fuck up. Senior leaders in the Biden administration knows this.
What would have the withdrawal looked like if not botched? Don’t think the Afghans were going to throw bouquets of flowers at our departing troops. We were turning things over to the Taliban after the government had basically collapsed.
Even if we had taken an extra 6 months to withdraw, I still think there would be more casualties during that time also. And things would have still been messy.
Respectfully don’t patronize me with your military smarts. The link shows that there was no plan three months before the pullout date. My guy? I am pointing out actual facts about this. Your record does not give you the right to negate facts. Explain how the withdrawal could have been done more effectively if there were no plans in February, with a pullout in May. Felon Trump didn’t give a rat’s ass about the Afghanistan people, secretly agreeing with the Taliban and excluding the legitimate government. Reducing troop levels to 2,500 soldiers shows contempt for those people when he released 7,000 Taliban fighters. I think it is your guy you are protecting, and he doesn’t deserve your concern.
Wow. Some people can’t take criticism. And don’t confuse my criticism of Biden that I’m defending Trump’s actions. You obviously don’t know me. Trump can be wrong and Biden can still botch a withdrawal. Sorry I don’t agree with you. Send me to a reeducation camp. When did the Bulwark become a place where military veterans who have been involved in redeployment plans can’t criticize a botched withdrawal that resulted in civilian deaths. Ok. You do your thing.
Bush failed at Tora Bora, Obama should have gotten out after they killed Bin Laden, Trump dithered and then negotiated a bad deal to pull out. Biden executed the evacuation badly. Did I miss anyone?
Exactly. Some people can’t admit Biden made an obvious mistake. It’s a very unhealthy way to go through life. It’s one of the annoying things about Trump.
I respect your view, but I don't think that any president, Trump included, could've managed the end days in Afghanistan much better. The collapse of the afghan army reminded me of Saigon in '75 (I was 18) and when there is chaos like that, it would seem to be difficult to manage an orderly withdraw but in either case, I wasn't there.
I too am sick of hearing about Afghanistan. Trump made a back room deal with the Taliban for the US to leave Afghanistan. The Taliban. I’m going to say it again. The Taliban!!! Unlike Trump, Biden honored a deal made by the prior president. The problem was the deadline that was set. There wasn’t enough time to do it. We missed the deadline and it still wasn’t enough time. But sure…it’s Biden’s fault. Grrrrrrr
I can see where you are coming from on Afghanistan. Essentially, Trump laid a trap for Biden and Biden walked straight into it. The negotiation was essentially the Vietnam Peace Agreement all over again. You allow us to tiptoe away and then you can do what you want with Afghanistan.
Unfortunately,the Biden Administration refused to recognize the truth: The Taliban refused to honor their part of the bargain. They continued to take provinces by force or by bribery and US intelligence, the military apparently thought nothing of it. The result became a disaster.
Military leadership requires that contingencies be considered and planned for. It seems that the failure to plan for a very real contingency was a serious error. The Biden Administration cannot pass the buck!
"How did all this indiscriminate drone warfare unauthorized by Congress get started?"
With the 2002 AUMF that gave presidents the authority to conduct strikes without congress authorizing them first. This was a--you guessed it!--Bush Jr policy proposal that became law in 2002 and has authorized US presidents to use military force (what AUMF stands for) without consulting congress if the targets of strikes fall under post-9/11 terrorism definitions. You'll recall that Obama once (controversially) killed an AmCit in Yemen under this statute.
Monoview - there’s already been some evidence & reporting so we can probably skip the “maybe.” Some government records systems are a Rube Goldberg agglomeration of technologies of various eras back to the ‘60s. For anyone not familiar with that name, you’re like Musk’s tech team - too young to know how things got cobbled together over decades of underfunding. Thus you’d have a difficult time replicating the required functionality with all the built in exceptions to what the roolz appear to say MOST of the time. Misunderstanding the Social security Numident db was a small example
I know rube, charlie and joseph mccarthy, also. born in 1958. thx J AZ. first computer class was with cards. my cell phone is smaller then my first transistor radio!
Literally 100 yrs ago in internet time and I'll bet even folks that experienced it can hardly recall the details. Whereas drone technology is vastly different today and essentially how war is conducted day-to-day basis...so not comparable in any sense.
Can I add Old Joe's pardon of his son as another very serious sin committed by a D? I'm having a pretty hard time with this second term-T Unleashed. While carefully examining all the miseries, I thought about what would have happened to Hunter Biden if his dad hadn't pardoned him. If the second term is so hard on me, what would it have been like for Joe? There's no guard rails around T's thirst for revenge, and Joe would have been helpless to save his son. His suvivng son, whose case would have been quietly dealt with if his father wasn't president. I'm grateful for the mercy of Joe's pardon. Mercy seems so precious now.
I still contend that Biden should have only *commuted* Hunter's sentence (and not pardoned him) on the one conviction he had (he was guilty as hell of not reporting drug use on his gun purchase form, even if that type of 'technical' crime is almost never prosecuted). Joe should have pardoned Hunter on the tax case (as Joe did) where Hunter had pleaded already guilty because Hunter had actually taken responsibility. And then Joe should have pardoned Hunter (again, as he did) for anything else that might have transpired because Trump had openly talked about going after Hunter whether or not there was any there there. And Biden should not have talked about selective prosecution and prosecutorial weaponization etc as he did, because that damages the rule of law - I was not happy about Biden using the same language we dislike Trump for.
Even if, in my view, Biden botched the execution of his pardon power in Hunter's case, I'm still glad at the end of the day that he did it, because otherwise Hunter would have been Pam Bondi's first victim for no valid reason.
I honestly think--and thought at the time--that more of the blame should land on administration-spanning career professionals at DOD and State. They had 20+ years to study it from the inside!
I didn't mention Monica because I wasn't sure that the veiled reference to interns was a Jay Leno joke or not. I've been watching Leno's headlines on You Tube (they just kill me), and man it's amazing how he used Monica to make his career and fame. But I also think I'd rate that scandal something a Democrat definitely did that made the nation worse, so I think it's fair game in this context.
Not going to agree there... many presidents, e.g., JFK, FDR, have had affairs w/o making the nation worse, and James Buchanan was known at the time to be in a gay relationship with William Rufus King without making America worse. What made America worse was the Republicans who decided to make a huge deal out of it and attempted to impeach him over it, while also using it as an excuse to demean Hillary. Treating it as an ordinary human foible that was nobody's business but their own was also an option, and what harm would have derived from that?
Afghanistan withdrawal, huh? The one Trump negotiated that you continue to blame on Biden so you can find something to pretend that Dems don't go harder on national security than conservatives?
At what point does repeating something that you know is a little exaggerated over and over become propaganda?
Oh, and the rollout of the health website! That caused people pain for .... I don't know, maybe half an hour once? Yeah. Great comparisons here. If only DOGE could've done the rollout as their internet adventures are doing so much better, right? Eyes on the prize. Keeping things in perspective.
I can give you some horrible things Democrats actually did instead of Trump that actually hurt people you can use as examples. You really can dive a little deeper here instead of repeating the FOX News lines. For example, let's talk about drone warfare. We are apparently at war with Yemen? Did you know that? How did all this indiscriminate drone warfare unauthorized by Congress get started? What about Wall St and Silicon Valley bailouts? There's a great big mess that Dems keep stepping in. So many things you could bring up that would make actual sense in this context, but we get the FOX hits.
We don't get out without honesty. The Afghanistan withdrawal was arranged by Trump and Pompeo. Biden probably should've ignored their plans, but the voters were definite that we wanted out of Afghanistan. The ACA was a good policy that made America stronger. Losing it will make us weaker.
How about you admit those things and then we can talk about how honesty can help us get out of this mess?
I so agree with you Kate Fall. What poor examples those were- pure Fox propaganda!
Amen! Let 👏🏻 her 👏🏻 cook👏🏻!
Sock it to 'em, Kate!!👍👍👍
Respectfully, Biden still botched Afghanistan, and owns that 100%. Yes, the Trump admin negotiated the withdrawal, but Biden was responsible for the proper execution of it. This doesn’t mean Biden was a bad president. I also believe he did an exceptional job pulling NATO together and supporting Ukraine, as well as his leadership supporting Israel after the Oct 7th Hamas terrorist attack.
Agree.
By the numbers, the pullout was eminently successful, not botched.
Pls explain.
Look to Vietnam as a comparison. Over 60 servicemen were killed during the last month of the chaotic withdrawal. It's a miracle that the Afghanistan operation went as well as it did after 20 years of war and Trump's worst negotiated peace deal in history (he released Taliban 5,000 terrorist fighters back to the battlefield).
Thank you. Was this comparison ever made by any media outlet? I didn't follow the news closely. I don't recall hearing anything like this.
I don’t recall hearing anything like that from the media either, and I followed it closely across all media outlets. The media narrative was set on the first day from 15-20 seconds of video at the airport. You know, the clips of people running alongside the plane and packed in a cargo hold that outlets ran over and over.
yes, that is the image associated with the withdrawal
The 13 servicepeople killed by the ISIS-K suicide bomber is a tragedy.
However, by every other number the withdrawal was a great success, not botched or a debacle:
Americans, allies and Afghan refugees evacuated: over 122,000
American serviceperson lives lost to Taliban: 0
American civilian lives lost: 0
American civilians remaining in Afghanistan except by their choice: <50
Number of days by which final August 31 deadline for withdrawal missed: 0
Firefights with Taliban during evacuation: 0
American military deaths before withdrawal and evacuation: 2,402
American military deaths after withdrawal and evacuation to date: 0
thx. why is this news to me?
Because it’s not part of the news media’s narrative.
Of course. Why did I bother to ask? Trump has corrupted the MSM part of our free press.
But, cable and broadcast news is not where most people get their news and their audiences are declining. So CBS’ cave may not matter all that much. The growth of independent news, like the Bulwark, and their social-media-sharing-ready content getting widely shared is a good thing.
Hubby McGee, Biden changed the withdrawal date from May to August to get more people out. When Felon Trump left office he had no logistical plan, none at all, to complete the orderly evacuation of either personnel or equipment within the agreed timeframe. If you would go to white house.gov you may see that Biden’s administration was not given any plans for evacuation because there were none. But the withdrawal date was three months away. Biden did want a September withdrawal date. How do you think the Taliban would have accepted that! 100%? No!
Katherine again, respectfully, no excuse. Biden was president. I'm a retired Army officer. 90 days is plenty of time to plan an effective withdrawal. Respectfully, please don't patronize me with a whitehouse.gov link. I'm a multiple deployed Iraq War vet - and led soldiers down range - and was permanently disabled while preparing for a deployment to Afghanistan. It is unwise to fall into the trap of believing "your guy" can do no wrong on military operations. He fucked up. Hundreds if not thousands of Afghan refugees died because of this fuck up. Senior leaders in the Biden administration knows this.
What would have the withdrawal looked like if not botched? Don’t think the Afghans were going to throw bouquets of flowers at our departing troops. We were turning things over to the Taliban after the government had basically collapsed.
Even if we had taken an extra 6 months to withdraw, I still think there would be more casualties during that time also. And things would have still been messy.
Respectfully don’t patronize me with your military smarts. The link shows that there was no plan three months before the pullout date. My guy? I am pointing out actual facts about this. Your record does not give you the right to negate facts. Explain how the withdrawal could have been done more effectively if there were no plans in February, with a pullout in May. Felon Trump didn’t give a rat’s ass about the Afghanistan people, secretly agreeing with the Taliban and excluding the legitimate government. Reducing troop levels to 2,500 soldiers shows contempt for those people when he released 7,000 Taliban fighters. I think it is your guy you are protecting, and he doesn’t deserve your concern.
Wow. Some people can’t take criticism. And don’t confuse my criticism of Biden that I’m defending Trump’s actions. You obviously don’t know me. Trump can be wrong and Biden can still botch a withdrawal. Sorry I don’t agree with you. Send me to a reeducation camp. When did the Bulwark become a place where military veterans who have been involved in redeployment plans can’t criticize a botched withdrawal that resulted in civilian deaths. Ok. You do your thing.
Bush failed at Tora Bora, Obama should have gotten out after they killed Bin Laden, Trump dithered and then negotiated a bad deal to pull out. Biden executed the evacuation badly. Did I miss anyone?
Exactly. Some people can’t admit Biden made an obvious mistake. It’s a very unhealthy way to go through life. It’s one of the annoying things about Trump.
I respect your view, but I don't think that any president, Trump included, could've managed the end days in Afghanistan much better. The collapse of the afghan army reminded me of Saigon in '75 (I was 18) and when there is chaos like that, it would seem to be difficult to manage an orderly withdraw but in either case, I wasn't there.
I too am sick of hearing about Afghanistan. Trump made a back room deal with the Taliban for the US to leave Afghanistan. The Taliban. I’m going to say it again. The Taliban!!! Unlike Trump, Biden honored a deal made by the prior president. The problem was the deadline that was set. There wasn’t enough time to do it. We missed the deadline and it still wasn’t enough time. But sure…it’s Biden’s fault. Grrrrrrr
I can see where you are coming from on Afghanistan. Essentially, Trump laid a trap for Biden and Biden walked straight into it. The negotiation was essentially the Vietnam Peace Agreement all over again. You allow us to tiptoe away and then you can do what you want with Afghanistan.
Unfortunately,the Biden Administration refused to recognize the truth: The Taliban refused to honor their part of the bargain. They continued to take provinces by force or by bribery and US intelligence, the military apparently thought nothing of it. The result became a disaster.
Military leadership requires that contingencies be considered and planned for. It seems that the failure to plan for a very real contingency was a serious error. The Biden Administration cannot pass the buck!
That is not my read of the situation. Trump made a deal that he would renig on if he won in 2020. He set Biden, or whoever, up. Plain and simple.
And Trump invited the Taliban to Camp David - then withdrew the invitation after a public outcry.
But, sure, blame Biden for the Afghanistan withdrawal because it fits a narrative that's being forced.
I'm growling here, too.
Me three.
Well argued, Kate!
"How did all this indiscriminate drone warfare unauthorized by Congress get started?"
With the 2002 AUMF that gave presidents the authority to conduct strikes without congress authorizing them first. This was a--you guessed it!--Bush Jr policy proposal that became law in 2002 and has authorized US presidents to use military force (what AUMF stands for) without consulting congress if the targets of strikes fall under post-9/11 terrorism definitions. You'll recall that Obama once (controversially) killed an AmCit in Yemen under this statute.
Now those are Presidential mistakes. A bad website rollout really doesn't make the top 100.
In the end, everybody always blames the programmers.
Especially when you look at all the good it has done since then.
Maybe the DOGE shenanigans will totally fuck up the feds computer systems. That would be vying for #1 on the greatest hits chart.
Monoview - there’s already been some evidence & reporting so we can probably skip the “maybe.” Some government records systems are a Rube Goldberg agglomeration of technologies of various eras back to the ‘60s. For anyone not familiar with that name, you’re like Musk’s tech team - too young to know how things got cobbled together over decades of underfunding. Thus you’d have a difficult time replicating the required functionality with all the built in exceptions to what the roolz appear to say MOST of the time. Misunderstanding the Social security Numident db was a small example
I know rube, charlie and joseph mccarthy, also. born in 1958. thx J AZ. first computer class was with cards. my cell phone is smaller then my first transistor radio!
Luv it, my friend. Me, same. But it was my big brothers transistor dialin in the hits
Literally 100 yrs ago in internet time and I'll bet even folks that experienced it can hardly recall the details. Whereas drone technology is vastly different today and essentially how war is conducted day-to-day basis...so not comparable in any sense.
Can I add Old Joe's pardon of his son as another very serious sin committed by a D? I'm having a pretty hard time with this second term-T Unleashed. While carefully examining all the miseries, I thought about what would have happened to Hunter Biden if his dad hadn't pardoned him. If the second term is so hard on me, what would it have been like for Joe? There's no guard rails around T's thirst for revenge, and Joe would have been helpless to save his son. His suvivng son, whose case would have been quietly dealt with if his father wasn't president. I'm grateful for the mercy of Joe's pardon. Mercy seems so precious now.
I still contend that Biden should have only *commuted* Hunter's sentence (and not pardoned him) on the one conviction he had (he was guilty as hell of not reporting drug use on his gun purchase form, even if that type of 'technical' crime is almost never prosecuted). Joe should have pardoned Hunter on the tax case (as Joe did) where Hunter had pleaded already guilty because Hunter had actually taken responsibility. And then Joe should have pardoned Hunter (again, as he did) for anything else that might have transpired because Trump had openly talked about going after Hunter whether or not there was any there there. And Biden should not have talked about selective prosecution and prosecutorial weaponization etc as he did, because that damages the rule of law - I was not happy about Biden using the same language we dislike Trump for.
Even if, in my view, Biden botched the execution of his pardon power in Hunter's case, I'm still glad at the end of the day that he did it, because otherwise Hunter would have been Pam Bondi's first victim for no valid reason.
I was happy he did that. Crimes that normally do not involve jail time should not be prosecuted the way they went after Hunter.
Agree. Trump would be sending Hunter to El Salvador.
Or a Russian Gulag.
Thank you for not letting that pass by. It is one of the shibboleths of the Bulwark staff to harp on that.
I honestly think--and thought at the time--that more of the blame should land on administration-spanning career professionals at DOD and State. They had 20+ years to study it from the inside!
I guess this is my "Deep State" criticism, heh.
National Security is still the GOP strong suit. It's not like they had a private e-mail server. THAT would be serious! 😀
To many Republicans here at the Bulwark, they will never stop bringing up Monica.
Could have used Iran-Contra, or 'read my lips' or 'the smoking gun could be a mushroom cloud'. But that would go against their core.
I didn't mention Monica because I wasn't sure that the veiled reference to interns was a Jay Leno joke or not. I've been watching Leno's headlines on You Tube (they just kill me), and man it's amazing how he used Monica to make his career and fame. But I also think I'd rate that scandal something a Democrat definitely did that made the nation worse, so I think it's fair game in this context.
Not going to agree there... many presidents, e.g., JFK, FDR, have had affairs w/o making the nation worse, and James Buchanan was known at the time to be in a gay relationship with William Rufus King without making America worse. What made America worse was the Republicans who decided to make a huge deal out of it and attempted to impeach him over it, while also using it as an excuse to demean Hillary. Treating it as an ordinary human foible that was nobody's business but their own was also an option, and what harm would have derived from that?
exactomundo!