I think reasonable people can disagree on the issue of trans women competing in certain women’s athletic events. That doesn’t mean it’s I’ll will on anyone’s part. It’s hard to argue that years of male hormones don’t have a lasting impact even after being suppressed for awhile. The Penn swimmer showed that pretty convincingly this year. I’m very sympathetic to their desire to be treated as any other women are, but cis women can be at a disadvantage. I don’t think this is a very common issue at all, and shouldn’t be an issue in recreational sports, but in elite competition I think it’s more complicated. For example, if Caitlyn Jenner had transitioned at a younger age, I don’t think other women would have stood much of a chance against her in track & field. This is generally a pretty respectful forum so I’d encourage people not to assume the worst unless it’s clear that someone is acting with malice.
Maybe, but that would have been ridiculous. Ale puberty makes one taller, broader shouldered, etc. I’m only talking about elite competition, and not passing laws to incite public outrage. It’s a sport by sport kind of issue, and I’m for allowing as much access as is reasonable. I’m just not sure I’d want to be a female basketball player playing against someone like a (theoretical) trans LeBron James. Hopefully that doesn’t make me a horrible human being.
You think cis men are going to fake being women to play pro women's sports? You do realize that a cis man good enough to play in the WNBA or the NASL could earn for more playing in man men's leagues.
I wasn’t referring to faking anything, but someone that is mediocre in a mens league could be dominant in a women’s league after transitioning. Richard Ruskin was a mid 40’s amateur tennis player as a man, but as Renee Richard’s was able to compete on the women’s pro circuit at 49 years of age. Similar for the Penn swimmer. I really don’t think it’s controversial to most that male puberty provides some physical advantages that don’t go away with hormone suppression. I’m not sure why you think this is so bigoted.
Your attitude perfectly exemplifies that first cartoon. You're talking to liberals who aren't remotely hostile to your position, but you're treating their disinclination to accept what you're saying without question or comment as an attack.
I'm not transphobic, but I'm also not blind. I'm nowhere close to an elite athlete (and I'm 5'7", 50, and not especially fit) but if the internet is to be believed I can bench press nearly 100 pounds more than 6'8", 207# Brittney Griner. She's an elite athlete and I'm a couch potato, but I'm by far the stronger of the two of us.
The US women's national soccer team is among the best of the best, but as skilled as they are when they play elite U-16 boys teams they lose badly. They're better at soccer, but the boys are way too fast. The female players can exceed the boys' skill and knowledge, but not match their speed and strength.
These are facts, not opinions, yet you're asking people to set them aside and accept your position that any trans female has the right to compete in any women's sport? Fun position you're putting folks in. If they support the female athletes saying they think it's unfair then they're transphobic, but if they explain why they think it's fair for trans females to play in their league then uh-oh, now they're mansplaining. Either way they end up being the asshole, even if they're broadly sympathetic to trans people in every other way and believe that women are 100% equal to men.
A lot of female athletes don't think it's that simple.
The problem with your "all or nothing and you're a bigot if you disagree" approach is that we're talking about something that's very new and is this far unsupported by much evidence.
You're saying "Anyone who says they're a woman is a woman and everyone has to accept it with no conditions right this minute!" I was raised to treat people with respect, so I'm fine with that right up to the point that it starts causing problems for others. So sure, I'll use your preferred pronoun, support your right to use the bathroom of your choice, and stand up for you when the right wing dipshits take their shots.
But when you decide to play sports and compete against biological females I start to have questions and concerns. It's not a hard no, but I'm going need more information. If that makes me a bigot in your eyes then so be it, but I think that you're being extremely unreasonable and that your rigidity and disinclination to consider the views of others will ultimately do more harm than good.
People used to argue that it was unfair to white athletes to have to compete against Black athletes or for straight women to compete against gay women.
It was mean-spirited because he is correct that prefacing an opinion with "I think" is very common, and he never claimed his comment was anything other than opinion.. However, "just an opinion" is a bad faith tactic for dismissing as opinion without making any attempt to dispute it. He cited the Penn swimmer to support his opinion. What do have to support your dispute?
He also stated he has no problem with everyone playing together recreationally, but wonders about elite sports citing Jenner. You could make an effort to answer the implied question instead of mean-spiritedly bringing up his daughter.
Strawman. Neither he not I have characterized what he said as anything other than opinion. The new context into which you put his comment about his daughter was mean-spirited.
Fact: In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.
You’re trying awfully hard to pick fights. There’s absolutely nothing I’ve said to indicate that in any way. My people (Jewish) have been considered of lesser value by many over history, but I try not to let that impact every discussion I have.
How is that bad faith? Those exact same arguments were sued to justify racism. It's factually accurate. If that makes you uncomfortable, perhaps you need to ask yourself why.
It is not the "exact same argument", and if you are going to hurl accusations of racism, then nobody is going to take what you say seriously. You seem to be the only one here looking for a fight, rather than seeking to understand
Is the concern about fairness in women's sports legitimate? If not, why don't you explain data supporting the assertion that there is no difference between FAAB and MAAB women in sports in terms of outcomes. Or provide something to the discussion other than calling people bigots. Picking fights like this is not helping trans women nor does it advance the discussion. It's just trying to score points.
You have identified the implied assertion in his comments. I am curious as to why the fairness of MAAB and FAAB men in sports in terms of outcomes is not similarly questioned in society. What unexamined assumption is in play here?
I would assume that would put FAAB men at a disadvantage in their respective leagues. Though that assumption might be inaccurate if you look at more data, or it may only be inaccurate for certain sports (e.g. skating, equestrian, gymnastics). I just think we are at the beginning of this debate and there is not a lot of evidence one way or the other. People are operating on assumption.
Your embedded assertion is that there is no difference between FAAB and MAAB women in sports in terms of outcomes. Yet you have provided no support. You have only heaped scorn, which sorry, is no substitute for a well-reasoned argument.
I know that you think some women shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports. That is why I hold you in contempt
I think reasonable people can disagree on the issue of trans women competing in certain women’s athletic events. That doesn’t mean it’s I’ll will on anyone’s part. It’s hard to argue that years of male hormones don’t have a lasting impact even after being suppressed for awhile. The Penn swimmer showed that pretty convincingly this year. I’m very sympathetic to their desire to be treated as any other women are, but cis women can be at a disadvantage. I don’t think this is a very common issue at all, and shouldn’t be an issue in recreational sports, but in elite competition I think it’s more complicated. For example, if Caitlyn Jenner had transitioned at a younger age, I don’t think other women would have stood much of a chance against her in track & field. This is generally a pretty respectful forum so I’d encourage people not to assume the worst unless it’s clear that someone is acting with malice.
A similar comment could have been made about barring Black athletes from sports 100 years ago.
Well...no, not intelligently...
Maybe, but that would have been ridiculous. Ale puberty makes one taller, broader shouldered, etc. I’m only talking about elite competition, and not passing laws to incite public outrage. It’s a sport by sport kind of issue, and I’m for allowing as much access as is reasonable. I’m just not sure I’d want to be a female basketball player playing against someone like a (theoretical) trans LeBron James. Hopefully that doesn’t make me a horrible human being.
You think cis men are going to fake being women to play pro women's sports? You do realize that a cis man good enough to play in the WNBA or the NASL could earn for more playing in man men's leagues.
I wasn’t referring to faking anything, but someone that is mediocre in a mens league could be dominant in a women’s league after transitioning. Richard Ruskin was a mid 40’s amateur tennis player as a man, but as Renee Richard’s was able to compete on the women’s pro circuit at 49 years of age. Similar for the Penn swimmer. I really don’t think it’s controversial to most that male puberty provides some physical advantages that don’t go away with hormone suppression. I’m not sure why you think this is so bigoted.
People argued that science proved white supremacy for centuries.
Your attitude perfectly exemplifies that first cartoon. You're talking to liberals who aren't remotely hostile to your position, but you're treating their disinclination to accept what you're saying without question or comment as an attack.
I'm not transphobic, but I'm also not blind. I'm nowhere close to an elite athlete (and I'm 5'7", 50, and not especially fit) but if the internet is to be believed I can bench press nearly 100 pounds more than 6'8", 207# Brittney Griner. She's an elite athlete and I'm a couch potato, but I'm by far the stronger of the two of us.
The US women's national soccer team is among the best of the best, but as skilled as they are when they play elite U-16 boys teams they lose badly. They're better at soccer, but the boys are way too fast. The female players can exceed the boys' skill and knowledge, but not match their speed and strength.
These are facts, not opinions, yet you're asking people to set them aside and accept your position that any trans female has the right to compete in any women's sport? Fun position you're putting folks in. If they support the female athletes saying they think it's unfair then they're transphobic, but if they explain why they think it's fair for trans females to play in their league then uh-oh, now they're mansplaining. Either way they end up being the asshole, even if they're broadly sympathetic to trans people in every other way and believe that women are 100% equal to men.
Lighten up.
To paraphrase Mona Charen, the dogmatism of trans politics needs to slow down and wait for the nuance of trans science. https://www.thebulwark.com/trans-politics-needs-to-slow-down-and-wait-for-trans-science/ There are legitimate questions that science still needs to answer. In addition, science needs to answer these questions by first discarding unexamined assumptions, like "hardwiring" as explained here: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2021.608328/full Tbhis Harvard links has a collection of links for further study: https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/
Science once "proved" white people's innate superiority.
Now you are deliberately missing the point.
You're not supporting women athletes if you deny all women the chance to compete. It's pretty simple to grasp that.
A lot of female athletes don't think it's that simple.
The problem with your "all or nothing and you're a bigot if you disagree" approach is that we're talking about something that's very new and is this far unsupported by much evidence.
You're saying "Anyone who says they're a woman is a woman and everyone has to accept it with no conditions right this minute!" I was raised to treat people with respect, so I'm fine with that right up to the point that it starts causing problems for others. So sure, I'll use your preferred pronoun, support your right to use the bathroom of your choice, and stand up for you when the right wing dipshits take their shots.
But when you decide to play sports and compete against biological females I start to have questions and concerns. It's not a hard no, but I'm going need more information. If that makes me a bigot in your eyes then so be it, but I think that you're being extremely unreasonable and that your rigidity and disinclination to consider the views of others will ultimately do more harm than good.
People used to argue that it was unfair to white athletes to have to compete against Black athletes or for straight women to compete against gay women.
They were wrong.
That was mean-spirited. Most of us have just an opinion, including you.
It was mean-spirited because he is correct that prefacing an opinion with "I think" is very common, and he never claimed his comment was anything other than opinion.. However, "just an opinion" is a bad faith tactic for dismissing as opinion without making any attempt to dispute it. He cited the Penn swimmer to support his opinion. What do have to support your dispute?
He also stated he has no problem with everyone playing together recreationally, but wonders about elite sports citing Jenner. You could make an effort to answer the implied question instead of mean-spiritedly bringing up his daughter.
Strawman. Neither he not I have characterized what he said as anything other than opinion. The new context into which you put his comment about his daughter was mean-spirited.
Fact: In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.
Saying “I think” is a normal way to present an opinion.
So why are your opinions, which are so fiercely held, better than anyone else's? Because they're yours?
I never implied otherwise.
I know you think you are morally superior to people who disagree with you. The contempt is very mutual.
I think you’re being treated pretty unfairly here, for what it’s worth.
How? They are making the exact same arguments that people made to justify racism
You're the exact kind of person who argued that my family in "biologically inferior" to white people.
You’re trying awfully hard to pick fights. There’s absolutely nothing I’ve said to indicate that in any way. My people (Jewish) have been considered of lesser value by many over history, but I try not to let that impact every discussion I have.
If you don't want to discuss in good faith, then just don't comment
How is that bad faith? Those exact same arguments were sued to justify racism. It's factually accurate. If that makes you uncomfortable, perhaps you need to ask yourself why.
It is not the "exact same argument", and if you are going to hurl accusations of racism, then nobody is going to take what you say seriously. You seem to be the only one here looking for a fight, rather than seeking to understand
There's not much to understand about people wanting to treat some women as less than other women. It's rank bigotry
Is the concern about fairness in women's sports legitimate? If not, why don't you explain data supporting the assertion that there is no difference between FAAB and MAAB women in sports in terms of outcomes. Or provide something to the discussion other than calling people bigots. Picking fights like this is not helping trans women nor does it advance the discussion. It's just trying to score points.
You have identified the implied assertion in his comments. I am curious as to why the fairness of MAAB and FAAB men in sports in terms of outcomes is not similarly questioned in society. What unexamined assumption is in play here?
I would assume that would put FAAB men at a disadvantage in their respective leagues. Though that assumption might be inaccurate if you look at more data, or it may only be inaccurate for certain sports (e.g. skating, equestrian, gymnastics). I just think we are at the beginning of this debate and there is not a lot of evidence one way or the other. People are operating on assumption.
Denying all women access to something is about fairness and it is bigoted to deny women access based on how they were born.
Your embedded assertion is that there is no difference between FAAB and MAAB women in sports in terms of outcomes. Yet you have provided no support. You have only heaped scorn, which sorry, is no substitute for a well-reasoned argument.
Why should I address an arbitrary idea like that? All women should be allowed to compete in women's sports. That is pretty clear reasoning