Eric and Eliot try to parse the fire hose of news emanating from the Trump Administration. They discuss Eliot's Atlantic article on the American antecedents and causes of Trump's ascendancy and whether there is still some point in looking at the European autocrats like Viktor Orban on whom some Trumpists model themselves, as well as Ruy Texeira's article in the Free Press arguing that defending USAID is not the hill to die on for Democrats. They also discuss Richard Danzig's Washington Post article on how Elon Musk's DOGE might constructively help reform DoD's broken and dysfunctional acquisition process. They discuss the problems with Trump's Gaza proposal as well as the fact that it highlights how all other approaches to the issue of Gaza's relations with Israel have heretofore failed. They discuss Trump's executive order on Iran as well as General Keith Kellogg's preparations for negotiations to end the war in Ukraine and Trump's offer to resettle White Afrikaaners who have been disadvantaged by majority rule in South Africa.
Eliot's Latest in The Atlantic:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/trump-historical-analogies/681561/
Ruy Texeira on USAID
https://www.thefp.com/p/defending-usaid-is-political-suicide
Richard Danzig on Pentagon Reform
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/02/06/doge-pentagon-tech-innovation/
Bret Stephens & Gail Collins on Trump's Second Term So Far
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/10/opinion/trump-musk-cabinet-education.html
Steven Levitsky on The New Authoritarianism
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/trump-competitive-authoritarian/681609/
Shield of the Republic is a Bulwark podcast cosponsored by the Miller Center of Public Affairs at the University of Virginia.
I had to laugh just now upon hearing the word "transitioned" in your conversation. You may be found out and have your podcasts shut down. Been good to know ya.
Whining City on a hill
Was learning a LOT with this conversation and then got to the statement by Eliot Cohen, "at least he's recognizing the magnitude of the problem that you have in Gaza." I don't know what to say.
Edelman says the solution is to
REIGN IN EXECUTIVE POWER
SUPREME COURT-this is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY!
Extraordinarily naive. Trump has no foreign policy. He’s merely criming. How do you not see that? He embraces autocrats not out of ideological similarities but rather as partners in crime. You can’t do crime with the French government. He’s appointing unqualified people because they don’t represent a danger to him. You lament that the democrats will toss this corrupt Trump people out? Seriously? Trump may benefit from input from the Biden diplomats? Seriously? You think Trump cares about the world beyond his own enrichment?
There are a group of Republicans that actually believe the gaslighting nonsense of small government, boot straps, school choice etc. They are naive. It was ALWAYS about not giving handouts to minorities. This is who the GOP has always been, Trump just came out and said “the quiet part…..”. You can’t be for small government and be for school prayer, a massive military, and federal bailouts.
Totally agree
But I don’t lament that the democrats will try to toss him. I am a democrat.
Eliot Cohen’s analysis is missing a very big part of the puzzle in understanding what they are doing here. Their stated goal, Musk, Thiel, Vance and the rest is to tear down government, but they do not have Libertarian aims of smaller, limited government. As they say openly, they need to tear it down to build and control the state power as they see fit. Focusing only on what you can see now ignores their larger vision for government and America’s role in the world.
Not just Jackson and Coughlan and McCarthy. This goes back to John C. Calhoun, and John Taylor of Caroline-- the so-called “anti-Federalists” who were simultaneously opposed to centralized government and yet wanted to allow decentralized political entities to take whatever they could from whomever was weaker-- enslaving Africans, decimatig Native Americans. In other words, men who wanted to unleash human greed and cruelty and passion without the pesky obstacle of laws prtecting the innocent and vulnerable.
Thank-you for another great show. I look forward to it each weekend. I am a life long Democrat and differing views on some(not many) things, but I enjoy and respect your opinions on International and security issues. I frequently am able to see issues from another side. I am very concerned about our National Security withe errossion of talent from FBI, and intelligence agencies. Trump's view seems to be he doesn't need their intelligence, and information. (yikes) I would love to hear more about what you know with regards to our level of National Security.
I enjoy the discussion, but at times there is a thumping noise in the background that is very distracting. Someone is pounding on a table I think. Can someone please ask them to stop there something? Thank you. 😃
Glad to see I'm not the only one who thought this podcast was a little bit out of touch. Also as a young Democrat who was not thinking very deeply at the time and also thought Ayn Rand Atlas Shrugged was great, I quickly learned that Reagan wasn't the great president that he was made out to be. Many of our presidents are flawed and like Trump. He was a performer and I think that I have been doubtful of so-called trickle-down economics since then.
What I do appreciate is that here? We can have a civil discourse 99% of the time and we can listen to different voices and there appears to be some common sense which is severely lacking in our government.
Hi. As someone new to your site, it would be helpful if you identified who the hosts of podcasts are by their full names instead of just “Eric and Eliot”. Thanks
Right at the beginning of the podcast they always make a full introduction. Check the transcript at 21s.
"They've poisoned the water?" Project 2025, the product of a FARA organization, Heritage Foundation, to which MAGA strictly subscribes.
All talk of defending federal agencies by Democrats or others is moot; the issue is wrapped around unelected individuals sponsored by The Oath-Breaking SoB who are ignoring our Constitution and the constitutional processes that created the federal agencies. Defeat that and then hold Congressional hearings to legally reform those agencies.
I was granted TS/SCI access for 21 years as a U.S. Navy cryptologist. My skin crawls as I learn of unauthorized, unelected, and uncleared individuals gaining access to classified data and both PII and PIFI data.
My cousin is retired Navy. He thinks everything is just fine, and is glad that Pete Hegseth defeated “those scumbag Democrats” that tried to give him a hard time in his hearing. I couldn’t believe my ears. My cousin claimed that a lot of his CO’s were “douchebags”, so it doesn’t matter if Hegseth is a douchebag. I will add that said cousin loved the Navy but was an “up or out”, forced to retire after a certain number of failed promotions (my mother said it was because he couldn’t keep his big mouth shut and always thought he knew better than the CO). Do you think it’s a delayed bitterness reaction? In 2016 the guy couldn’t believe Trump won the nomination. Now he loves Trump. It blows my mind.
Ann, Back in my day - and that's, I suspect, contiguous with that of your cousin's service - the quite unofficial description of sailors by sailors was: "A bitching sailor is a happy sailor!"
I was known, amongst my comrades, as an Ecstatic Sailor. There was no radio frequency, officer, enlisted sailor, political party, politician, ship, department, division, military service (especially the Air Farce), mission, sea state, weather state, region, month, day, or time of day that escaped my often biting sarcasm and bad jokes. Those with whom I served on cryptologic support elements - and especially the Division Officers, Leading Chiefs, Leading Petty Officers - must have accepted that I was just "blowing off steam". (There is a God and He has a really good sense of humor.)
How do I know that? I received very good personal evaluations and promotions over the years, including to Chief Petty Officer, Submarine dolphins, and enough awards to fill out 3 levels of ribbons.
If your cousin believes that Hegseth is a douchebag, I concur. Unlike your cousin, I have NEVER supported or "liked" the scumbag Oath-Breaking SoB who was returned by 49% of our voters.
I suspect your cousin was a commissioned officer or Chief Warrant Officer. Not that it makes a difference. Please congratulate him for me for his service - I am happy to meet any veteran, no matter the person's politics or party.
(No, I'm not trying to clean the rust off of my halo...)
Check out the books "Generations" and "The Fourth Turning is Here" by Neil Howe. You'll be convinced on the author's model explaining current circumstances. And yes, the world order is changing. The new dawn will emerge around 2030-2035.
“The new dawn will emerge around 2030-2035.”
100 years after the dawn of the Nazi regime that plunged the world into an unfathomable nightmare. Thanks for that.
I don't want this of course.
Excellent conversation. This podcast is much more enjoyable than the other Bulwark pods, which seem to have gotten kind of “jokey” and not serious in an intelligent way. I can’t quite put my finger on what the problem is with the others, but I find myself listening/watching them less and less. One person is so depressing I have to avoid them at all costs. But with these two, I finish not wanting to jump off the roof or run into oncoming traffic.
Time to go watch Episode 5 of Severance. It would be nice if such a procedure actually existed right now, except that forcing my innie to experience Trump 24/7 would be cruel and unusual punishment.
I'm going to assume that this was recorded before Hegseth shivved Ukraine, because the assessment of Trump being likely to muscle the Russians is something else
Again, I have to revisit this after that abominable showing from Trump and Vance in the Oval Office. There is a lot of soul searching that needs to be done if you truly thought Trump was more likely to strongarm Putin than Zelensky.
I enjoyed this episode very much. Herewith a personal anecdote that you both may take or leave. My wife Liz and I have a son living in New Zealand, with his wife and our two grandsons. We visit annually. Liz has made good friends with a number of Kiwis who are of a certain age and who are, I should think, pretty conservative. In a recent trip, one of her new friends asked her, "What has possessed the United States to give up its position of world leadership?" She said she couldn't answer in a way that made sense to her. As she and I see the US withdrawing, we are worried, as parents and grandparents. about what will happen when and if China takes Taiwan. New Zealand is a small country in a vast ocean without the means to defend itself alone. The US rejection of leadership is worrying to us on a personal level. Thank you for all you do to keep hope alive that this unhappy situation will end.
So what can we do to stop the power grab! You don’t say …..the administration is lawless…. They The majority of the Congress doesn’t care that the voice of the citizens is being destroyed. Great women and minorities no longer have a voice in your opinion. Shameful. DIVERSITY EQUITY INCLUSION. ….. it’s not a nasty term. Your dismissive attitude towards those who aren’t like you is disgraceful.
I enjoy listening to various Bulwark podcasts to hear different voices. HOWEVER, these two gents appear to be very out of touch with what is really going on. They got it entirely wrong when speculating about Trump's plan for Ukraine.
The world is completely different from when they were holding positions of authority.
Do not believe they are out of touch
Yikes!! These two are a perfect example of the 'elite' that MAGA supporters feel don't understand them. They were painful to listen to.
This podcast is hard to listen too because Eliot and eric are brilliant yet they decry things (ultra partisanship) yet exhibit the behavior all the time. The idea that Eliot thinks DEI at John Hopkins was such an issue that people would turn to Trump is mind blowing partisanship. If a dem president was trying to govern universities I would get it but they aren’t. These are choices made by his colleagues and the administration. It has nothing to do with Biden or Dems. Also, you don’t think that republicans have been doing white identity politics for like 50 years? I get it you don’t really care about that type of identity politics but don’t hide from the fact republicans turn almost every issue into some type of culture war.
Second, the idea that Eliot and eric can’t put the blame where it should be, bush and the Iraq war because they worked and supported that initiative is infuriating. I know you guys know this but own up to it. Bush was an AWFUL president and we got Trump because of his lies.
Third, USAID is just not popular. It does great work but no one, unfortunately, cares. If you really want to do some good, why don’t you go back to your Republican buddies and convince THEM to stand up for it.
Finally, Eliot, come on. You think Trump was going to give Ukraine a security guarantee. It amazes me the grace you give Republican politicians compared to democratic ones.
It's rich when white people complain about "identity politics", yet unable to see the GOP has engaged in identity politics immediately after LBJ signed The Civil Rights Act and women dared to demand to be treated as equals not subservient to men. The GOP's Southern Strategy was pure white identify politics.
Inside the prelude to GW Bush's invasion of Iraq, more top Pentagon officials argued against the war, but overrode by military strategists aligned with neoconservatives. VP Cheney didn't listen to intelligence analysts who saw no evidence of Saddam Hussein having a nuclear weapon. It was arrogance that led President GW Bush, VP Cheney, DOD Secretary Rumsfeld & neocons to believe they could overthrow Hussein and Iraqis would live happily ever after. Maybe, if the war room had included diverse and highly competent women, Black Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian American with non-partisan perspectives, we would never had invaded Iraq.
As far as colleges and DEI censoring conservative professors and student speech, I have not seen widespread evidence of this claim. As someone who attended college at the height of anti-Vietnam war protests, I heard people make similar claims. College campuses are a hotbed of communists and radicals. Yet, I saw a small percentage of student protestors and most students were more concerned about their social lives. What I did see was many white middle class and affluent guys attending college and graduate school to avoid the draft & as soon as the war was over, they were suddenly anti-social spending and pro-tax cuts.
Yep. It’s worse than that Elizabeth. Both Eliot and eric worked in the bush administration before and after the Iraq invasion (and supported it after they left). Eric was like the number 2 (or 3) guy at state pushing it. He literally was in the room with the president going over war plans.
He was one of the men a family member described to me. This family member worked in the Pentagon and interacted frequently with Joint Chief of Staff. He advised his adult child to resign from the US Army rather than be sent to Iraq. His close friends inside the Pentagon knew the invasion of Iraq would be a disaster for the US and Iraq.
Gentlemen,
Kind of crazy that when talking about the 'positive outcomes' to all this you mentioned strengthening the constitution and escaping identity politics in the same breath. Earlier in the conversation you discussed agreeing with the attack on DEI and Wokeism.
On the on hand I agree that stuff is annoying, and I suppose in a University setting may be more so.
But to mention it at the same time as the advent of an all-powerful unitary executive seems to be to be equating ridiculous and annoying to dangerous.
I'm also sorry (again) for the timing of your tape/release and the recent actions of Trump. I hope to hear next week your thoughts on Trump's opening bid for Ukraine
Same. The performances of Trump, Hegseth and Vance were beyond what was expected.
I have asked the following question friends and family to define woke. Their complaints are 'DEI hires" or "I can't say what I think or I'm told how to behave." When pressed to name an incompetent or under qualified hire who was not a white man, they can't name one.
The Financial Times interviewed people in the corporate and financial world about the end of DEI. One anonymous finance guys said "I can use retard and c**t" again. Somehow I doubt this guy would hire a woman or non-white guy.
I really appreciated this conversation. This is an incredibly difficult and uncertain time, and I have some different thoughts and perspectives to consider after listening today.
i do wonder if americans are ready to live in a it-doesn't-exist-anymore american "empire" world. i don't think they are ... now when will this realization creep into their minds and what will they do about it, or will it not be too late to do something about it? ... not clear.
Agreed. I think MAGA thought they were getting America AND Trump. People are going to be surprised that they got neither. The only reason America won’t be renamed is because of “branding”. (I still won’t be surprised if it is renamed.)
You can’t get rid of the Constitution, separation of church and state, co-equal branches of government, and our founding principles and still have “America”. It’s a completely different country. (Once we survive this, we will have to build something new. There is no “back” so don’t waste a second on thinking there is some normal to return to.)
Trump lied to and used every one of his voters. If they’re getting what they want now, it’s only because it serves the agenda. They are betrayed right along with the rest of us.
Yes, and a lot of damage will be done and pain inflicted on ordinary people before any Trump voters will acknowledge how mistaken they were.
60F is 15°.
Has anyone begun seeing parallels between this administration and the rise of Robespierre and the Reign of Terror after the French Revolution? I urge everyone to read this post to understand that the similarities are chilling: https://www.city-journal.org/article/why-robespierre-chose-terror
Yes! The mob is now on Twitter where people are perfectly comfortable saying Rohingya refugees should die because Elon Musk doesn't want to take the time to see what USAID programs are accomplishing. The Reagan movement had a revolutionary zeal, but it was rooted in the US constitutional system. These right wing revolutionaries are hell-bent on taking us back to a pre-constitutional year one.
I think part of the reason the Democratic party is unmoored by all this is they've grown accustomed to being the ones calling for rapid structural changes in society. It's not natural for them to argue for incremental changes now that Republicans want to completely upturn everything.