Some voters in recent Democratic primaries have been upset with Joe Biden's handling of the Israel-Hamas war. Whether and how he can bring them back onside in November is an open question. Pod Save America co-host Tommy Vietor joins Sarah to break down a small but critical part of the Democratic coalition, why they're upset, and what it could mean in November.
The difference between the two groups was striking. I kinda understand the ones who are using their primary votes to send a message about their policy concerns. It's the sort of thing I might do. But when Trump is on the ballot they'll still vote against him.
The young TikTok progressives, OTOH, pretty much confirmed all my worst stereotypes of young progressives. They don't regard Trump as an existential threat because they're no more committed to constitutional democracy than MAGA is. The issues they feel most passionately about are the result of propaganda efforts from enemy nations.
The best thing Biden could do is ignore the young pro-Hamas progressives. There is nothing he could do to appease them without losing even more votes. Unfortunately, that's not who Joe Biden is. Biden is like the good shepherd, who leaves behind the 99 to go in search of the lost sheep. And, by "sheep" I mean Democrats. He won't expend much effort to retain the votes of us NeverTrumpers (goats?), but he will bend over backwards to keep every Democratic voter in his coalition.
This discussion made me nostalgic. I disagreed with John McCain about many things but he was my hero anyway; he was a great man. I voted for Obama but definitely felt that the country would be safe in McCain's hands (Palin was another story and perhaps one reason why he was not elected; she was a disaster and paved the way for Trump's populist blathering). Actually, although Romney was certainly not my hero and I did not like him much, I did not feel as though we would be in mortal peril if he won. How low we have sunk.
By the way, Biden could have repudiated Trump and Pompeo's withdrawal deal in Afghanistan; the Taliban were already breaking their word which would have been a good reason. Biden wanted out. if you want to learn about Afghanistan go listen to Will Selber; highly recommended
Wow Sarah, your boy Tommy stands almost exactly where I do on the Israel situation. Dude is really smart and well-spoken too. This was a great episode.
Regarding the new segment: The question asked is close to, but not quite what I have looked for, but haven’t quite found in the thriving anti-Trump ecosystem. I would love to have a podcast or YouTube channel that really helps me answer common challenges that I hear from my soft Trump voting friends. For example, if they say, “Biden made the border problem so much worse” or “Biden’s stimulus is the reason inflation is out of control,” what is the best response to get them to see a different perspective. These are people that are open to discussion, so I would LOVE if I had info to know what’s the best points that will encourage them to reconsider and not just push them away.
I’m disappointed in Tommy V’s lack of understanding of the war with Hamas. Although he’s right that the most success Israel had in getting hostages back was through a negotiated cease fire, he forgot what brought Hamas to the table: weeks of hardcore bombing. Hamas needed a chance to regroup and thus ok’d a deal. Also, that cease-fire would have continued except Hamas ended it, just like they ended the cease-fire that had been in place on October 6. To say Israel just needs to give up more to make a deal with Hamas is facile and insulting. Hamas doesn’t want a deal. It’s perfectly happy with dead Israelis and dead Gazans, especially because the world prefers to blame Israel.
Trump lost 65 Americans in Afghanistan in four years. In Biden's three-plus years in office, he has lost 13 Americans: a smaller number, mainly, because he got U.S. forces out in 2021. Of course zero would have been the best number, but getting out was the way to stop the bleeding. If people think President Trump could have managed the exit more cleanly, ask why he didn't do it.
The kids in this focus group represent a pretty small sliver of the Democratic electorate, don't you think? I mean, Sarah says they expected to get some Arab-Americans but didn't come up with any. What they got were "uncommitted" voters who weren't Arabs. I'm thinking the "uncommitteds" probably were actually largely Arab-Americans, so they got an unrepresentative sample from an already small minority of Democratic voters ("uncommitted" only pulled 13% of the primary vote).
I didn't think it was possible to get me even more pissed off than listening to a focus group of two-time Trump voters who will vote for him again. I was wrong.
This isn't really a new thing, and it might be mostly young people who are doing this, but I know people who aren't young and who say things similar to what these voters are saying. I remember seeing a post somewhere that compared voting to taking a bus; it might not take you exactly where you want to go, but it'll get you closer than where you were before you got on the bus. But I think that some people don't see things that way. It's a similar argument for right-of-center people who can see that Trump would be worse than Biden but have reservations about voting for Biden. I voted for Nader in 2000 (although, even then, I didn't agree with Gore and Bush were similar and probably would have voted for Gore if I'd lived in a swing state). I'm not as far left as I used to be, maybe because I'm older and see things with more nuance than I did then, but, looking back, I feel that voting for third parties has hurt the left. If Nader's voters had all got behind Gore, then the Iraq war might not have happened. If all of Jill Stein's voters had got behind Clinton, then Trump wouldn't have been there to appoint his judges who went on to overturn Roe.
How about Biden responding to the progressives' anger about Gaza by leveling with them? To start, that would mean pointing out how what is happening in Gaza is inconsistent with genocide. It would would supplemented by demonstrating that Hamas actually intends to commit genocide and is only prevented from doing so by the IDF. There's more that could ne said, such as Hamas' defense strategy consisting exclusively of making it as difficult as possible for Israel to act against it without killing innocent Gazans thereby stoking international outrage whenever Israel does act, but that case might require too much bandwidth.
I felt dirty after listening to this episode. What these Progressives proposed is exactly the moral equivalent of Trump's peace plan for Ukraine: cut off American aid, and encourage the savages to proceed with their announced plan of genocide - the real thing, not something falsely given an intentionally inflammatory label. I'm sure they agree with Titania McGrath that you do have to say one thing in HAMAS' favor, they certainly aren't Islamophobic.
I found out about The Bulwark when Tim was on PSA, so it's great to see Tommy here. I love him and Dan, but rarely watch PSA any more b/c I find Favreau and Lovett immature and annoying even tho I'm a Dem. Sarah, JVL, and Tim, on the other hand, I never get enough of!
I don't watch The Focus Group a lot b/c it makes me want to "throw my computer out the window and then follow it" as Sarah said recently; but I still say she's a saint for doing this research.
Listening to these progressive young voters is more depressing than listening to 2 time Trump voters. I view 2 time Trump voters as lost: full of real and imagined grievances and devoid of critical thinking skills. But these voters do have critical thinking skills (for the most part), which makes their willingness to risk a return of Trump even more horrifying.
Honestly, I think that Israel's best approach is to assume that all the hostages are dead, because they probably are, or soon will be. There should then be a unilateral cease fire on the Israeli side with them only shooting back if shot at, and using that time to build safe spaces for Gaza civilians in North Gaza with massive aid on the ground, invitations for people to come north, and screening them for Hamas fighters as they do. Then, when a lot of Gazans are being fed, clothed, and cared for and out of harm's way, start the final attack on Rafah, leaving humanitarian corridors for the escape of non-combatants as the Sri Lankan Army did in the final attack on the Tamil Tigers, and then close in and kill everybody carrying a gun who doesn't immediately lay down his weapon and surrender.
The difference between the two groups was striking. I kinda understand the ones who are using their primary votes to send a message about their policy concerns. It's the sort of thing I might do. But when Trump is on the ballot they'll still vote against him.
The young TikTok progressives, OTOH, pretty much confirmed all my worst stereotypes of young progressives. They don't regard Trump as an existential threat because they're no more committed to constitutional democracy than MAGA is. The issues they feel most passionately about are the result of propaganda efforts from enemy nations.
The best thing Biden could do is ignore the young pro-Hamas progressives. There is nothing he could do to appease them without losing even more votes. Unfortunately, that's not who Joe Biden is. Biden is like the good shepherd, who leaves behind the 99 to go in search of the lost sheep. And, by "sheep" I mean Democrats. He won't expend much effort to retain the votes of us NeverTrumpers (goats?), but he will bend over backwards to keep every Democratic voter in his coalition.
Always informative and often unsettling. Great episode.
This discussion made me nostalgic. I disagreed with John McCain about many things but he was my hero anyway; he was a great man. I voted for Obama but definitely felt that the country would be safe in McCain's hands (Palin was another story and perhaps one reason why he was not elected; she was a disaster and paved the way for Trump's populist blathering). Actually, although Romney was certainly not my hero and I did not like him much, I did not feel as though we would be in mortal peril if he won. How low we have sunk.
By the way, Biden could have repudiated Trump and Pompeo's withdrawal deal in Afghanistan; the Taliban were already breaking their word which would have been a good reason. Biden wanted out. if you want to learn about Afghanistan go listen to Will Selber; highly recommended
Wow Sarah, your boy Tommy stands almost exactly where I do on the Israel situation. Dude is really smart and well-spoken too. This was a great episode.
Regarding the new segment: The question asked is close to, but not quite what I have looked for, but haven’t quite found in the thriving anti-Trump ecosystem. I would love to have a podcast or YouTube channel that really helps me answer common challenges that I hear from my soft Trump voting friends. For example, if they say, “Biden made the border problem so much worse” or “Biden’s stimulus is the reason inflation is out of control,” what is the best response to get them to see a different perspective. These are people that are open to discussion, so I would LOVE if I had info to know what’s the best points that will encourage them to reconsider and not just push them away.
I’m disappointed in Tommy V’s lack of understanding of the war with Hamas. Although he’s right that the most success Israel had in getting hostages back was through a negotiated cease fire, he forgot what brought Hamas to the table: weeks of hardcore bombing. Hamas needed a chance to regroup and thus ok’d a deal. Also, that cease-fire would have continued except Hamas ended it, just like they ended the cease-fire that had been in place on October 6. To say Israel just needs to give up more to make a deal with Hamas is facile and insulting. Hamas doesn’t want a deal. It’s perfectly happy with dead Israelis and dead Gazans, especially because the world prefers to blame Israel.
Since the Afghanistan withdrawal came up here:
Trump lost 65 Americans in Afghanistan in four years. In Biden's three-plus years in office, he has lost 13 Americans: a smaller number, mainly, because he got U.S. forces out in 2021. Of course zero would have been the best number, but getting out was the way to stop the bleeding. If people think President Trump could have managed the exit more cleanly, ask why he didn't do it.
The kids in this focus group represent a pretty small sliver of the Democratic electorate, don't you think? I mean, Sarah says they expected to get some Arab-Americans but didn't come up with any. What they got were "uncommitted" voters who weren't Arabs. I'm thinking the "uncommitteds" probably were actually largely Arab-Americans, so they got an unrepresentative sample from an already small minority of Democratic voters ("uncommitted" only pulled 13% of the primary vote).
I didn't think it was possible to get me even more pissed off than listening to a focus group of two-time Trump voters who will vote for him again. I was wrong.
This isn't really a new thing, and it might be mostly young people who are doing this, but I know people who aren't young and who say things similar to what these voters are saying. I remember seeing a post somewhere that compared voting to taking a bus; it might not take you exactly where you want to go, but it'll get you closer than where you were before you got on the bus. But I think that some people don't see things that way. It's a similar argument for right-of-center people who can see that Trump would be worse than Biden but have reservations about voting for Biden. I voted for Nader in 2000 (although, even then, I didn't agree with Gore and Bush were similar and probably would have voted for Gore if I'd lived in a swing state). I'm not as far left as I used to be, maybe because I'm older and see things with more nuance than I did then, but, looking back, I feel that voting for third parties has hurt the left. If Nader's voters had all got behind Gore, then the Iraq war might not have happened. If all of Jill Stein's voters had got behind Clinton, then Trump wouldn't have been there to appoint his judges who went on to overturn Roe.
How about Biden responding to the progressives' anger about Gaza by leveling with them? To start, that would mean pointing out how what is happening in Gaza is inconsistent with genocide. It would would supplemented by demonstrating that Hamas actually intends to commit genocide and is only prevented from doing so by the IDF. There's more that could ne said, such as Hamas' defense strategy consisting exclusively of making it as difficult as possible for Israel to act against it without killing innocent Gazans thereby stoking international outrage whenever Israel does act, but that case might require too much bandwidth.
Whew. Talk about changing the narrative.
I felt dirty after listening to this episode. What these Progressives proposed is exactly the moral equivalent of Trump's peace plan for Ukraine: cut off American aid, and encourage the savages to proceed with their announced plan of genocide - the real thing, not something falsely given an intentionally inflammatory label. I'm sure they agree with Titania McGrath that you do have to say one thing in HAMAS' favor, they certainly aren't Islamophobic.
I found out about The Bulwark when Tim was on PSA, so it's great to see Tommy here. I love him and Dan, but rarely watch PSA any more b/c I find Favreau and Lovett immature and annoying even tho I'm a Dem. Sarah, JVL, and Tim, on the other hand, I never get enough of!
I don't watch The Focus Group a lot b/c it makes me want to "throw my computer out the window and then follow it" as Sarah said recently; but I still say she's a saint for doing this research.
Listening to these progressive young voters is more depressing than listening to 2 time Trump voters. I view 2 time Trump voters as lost: full of real and imagined grievances and devoid of critical thinking skills. But these voters do have critical thinking skills (for the most part), which makes their willingness to risk a return of Trump even more horrifying.
Honestly, I think that Israel's best approach is to assume that all the hostages are dead, because they probably are, or soon will be. There should then be a unilateral cease fire on the Israeli side with them only shooting back if shot at, and using that time to build safe spaces for Gaza civilians in North Gaza with massive aid on the ground, invitations for people to come north, and screening them for Hamas fighters as they do. Then, when a lot of Gazans are being fed, clothed, and cared for and out of harm's way, start the final attack on Rafah, leaving humanitarian corridors for the escape of non-combatants as the Sri Lankan Army did in the final attack on the Tamil Tigers, and then close in and kill everybody carrying a gun who doesn't immediately lay down his weapon and surrender.