I can buy that many in the GOP are truly ready to move on from trump, and even that they might be successful in nominating someone other than trump this time.
What I want to know is what the "normal" Republicans, current and former, elected and electorate are willing to support. I get that they've finally decided that trump loses them el…
I can buy that many in the GOP are truly ready to move on from trump, and even that they might be successful in nominating someone other than trump this time.
What I want to know is what the "normal" Republicans, current and former, elected and electorate are willing to support. I get that they've finally decided that trump loses them elections, so perhaps they stop promoting the Big Lie, they tone down the violent rhetoric, the racist rhetoric, the laughing at political violence when it occurs. But what if red-state legislatures keep passing laws to give them the legal ability to overturn election outcomes they don't like in the future - do they just not mention it out loud anymore? Are groups like the Bulwark okay with that?
What exactly would it take to convince them that the GOP, at heart, is still anti-democratic in their leanings, still pro-putin and other authoritarian leaders, still lurching towards a white christian nationalism that blurs the line between state and religion, still willing to say (or not say) anything that would help them gain and keep power at any cost?
What does it take for them to be convinced that the GOP has the best interests of our nation at heart again - because it seems to me that running away from trump simply because he costs them elections, is still nothing more than a cold political calculation that addresses NONE of what they have been willing to either participate in, or quietly acquiesce to, during the past 6+ years.
This sums it up so well, MoosesMom. Thank you. I don't think the GOP can be declared cured of their monstrous derangement until they reject the derangement and reject it loudly, clearly, and for the right reasons. I don't see evidence of that yet. They shouldn't be let off the hook until it happens.
Trump was never the problem. He was always a useful idiot exploited by the Republican leaders to push their hardline/extremist agenda and policies. They have tuned their voters to expect this extremism and are stuck in that maze. Until and unless their leaders show the courage to effect true change, it is just old, stale wine in a new bottle.
That’s pretty much it, right? Republican elite want lower taxes and deregulation. It’s that simple. It doesn’t matter if there might be a good argument here and there for a more nuanced take on the role of government. It doesn’t matter if anti-monopoly and anti-polluting legislation may have real value to we the people. It prima facie has no value if it gets in the way of our wealthiest and biggest corporations doing what they want to do when they want to do it.
They’ll get behind any R nutso as long as the nutso delivers on those two items. They know Boebert, Green, Gaetz and Trump will do that. Walker will do that.
You're 100% right. While I prefer anyone over Trump, DeSantis is probably, in the long run much worse. He is not only more autocratic than Trump, he is way smarter and better organized.
George Will has been desperate for someone, anyone, to replace Donald Trump for years and bring his old republican party. I don't think DeSantis has ever been in a fight with someone like Trump before. DeSantis might criticize Trump as a loser who's cost the party elections, but Trump will go after DeSantis, his wife, his kids, his parents, his grade school teachers, you name it.
Will is sane, but I suspect he, along with a lot of never-trumpers, are desperate to believe that their party will come to their senses, and might even be willing to think they have. But clearly, dumping trump solely because of election losses is cynical and disingenuous when they are not willing to address their willingness to either participate in, or silently acquiesce to, the anti-democratic crazy that isn't going away.
The problem is that a lot of the GoP electorate is firmly behind what constitutes the Trumpian-MAGA agenda. Their problem isn't with the authoritarianism or the white Christian nationalism, or making things easier and cheaper for the plutocrats through tax cuts and deregulation--the problem is (as you point out) Trump costs them at the polls.
That's it.
So, regardless of who the GoP nominee is, you are going to get some variation of that whole thing.
Sure the election denialism is probably going to fade a bit--until Trump loses his first primary, anyway.
Ultimately, the GoP may be willing to turn away from Trump (if not Trumpism). But I doubt they have the courage to do the things necessary.
And while they might be willing to turn away, Trump is not willing to let them go--and THAT is the actual problem for the GoP. They have this tar baby stuck to them that they are not going to be easily rid of.
Unless Trump's grip on the MAGA electorate wanes, it's going to be hard for anyone to challenge him seriously. Ron DeSantis, for example, might decide that it's not in his interest to get into a brawl with Trump now when all he has to do is wait 4 years.
The problem for republicans will be extracating themselves from MAGAism. As Tim pointed out the other day, that would involve the kind of courage none of the elected Rs have shown so far - the willingness to lose an election to save the party from its extremists.
Regardless of their nominee, I don't think they win the WH in 2024. Inflation is widely and credibly believed to return to a normal 2%-ish sometime next year. And then there's time for the upcoming layoffs in the tech sectors to rebound. However bloody their primary becomes, if trump loses, I can never imagine him quietly saying "the voters have spoken". More likely he targets the GOP as his BIGLIEST enemies, over the Dems, and some percentage of the 30-40% Always Trump MAGAts will stick with him and be outraged. They will follow trump's urging to either stay home or vote against the GOP, and even if that is just 10-15% of the 30-40%, it's enough to swing the election.
Spot on, MM. Even if Trump doesn't get the nomination [IF], Trumpism is still alive and well and has taken over what used to be the GOP. DeSantis is a Trump impersonator. So is Hawley. Cruz has so little backbone he didn't stand up for his own wife and father. Who exactly is the 'turn-the-page/fresh-start' candidate?
The problem is that anyone who makes it through a republican primary is, by definition, not acceptable to a general electorate. The republican base has become so extreme that only an extremist can win. That's a formula for defeat in a general election.
I can buy that many in the GOP are truly ready to move on from trump, and even that they might be successful in nominating someone other than trump this time.
What I want to know is what the "normal" Republicans, current and former, elected and electorate are willing to support. I get that they've finally decided that trump loses them elections, so perhaps they stop promoting the Big Lie, they tone down the violent rhetoric, the racist rhetoric, the laughing at political violence when it occurs. But what if red-state legislatures keep passing laws to give them the legal ability to overturn election outcomes they don't like in the future - do they just not mention it out loud anymore? Are groups like the Bulwark okay with that?
What exactly would it take to convince them that the GOP, at heart, is still anti-democratic in their leanings, still pro-putin and other authoritarian leaders, still lurching towards a white christian nationalism that blurs the line between state and religion, still willing to say (or not say) anything that would help them gain and keep power at any cost?
What does it take for them to be convinced that the GOP has the best interests of our nation at heart again - because it seems to me that running away from trump simply because he costs them elections, is still nothing more than a cold political calculation that addresses NONE of what they have been willing to either participate in, or quietly acquiesce to, during the past 6+ years.
My concern exactly...
This sums it up so well, MoosesMom. Thank you. I don't think the GOP can be declared cured of their monstrous derangement until they reject the derangement and reject it loudly, clearly, and for the right reasons. I don't see evidence of that yet. They shouldn't be let off the hook until it happens.
Trump was never the problem. He was always a useful idiot exploited by the Republican leaders to push their hardline/extremist agenda and policies. They have tuned their voters to expect this extremism and are stuck in that maze. Until and unless their leaders show the courage to effect true change, it is just old, stale wine in a new bottle.
That’s pretty much it, right? Republican elite want lower taxes and deregulation. It’s that simple. It doesn’t matter if there might be a good argument here and there for a more nuanced take on the role of government. It doesn’t matter if anti-monopoly and anti-polluting legislation may have real value to we the people. It prima facie has no value if it gets in the way of our wealthiest and biggest corporations doing what they want to do when they want to do it.
They’ll get behind any R nutso as long as the nutso delivers on those two items. They know Boebert, Green, Gaetz and Trump will do that. Walker will do that.
You're 100% right. While I prefer anyone over Trump, DeSantis is probably, in the long run much worse. He is not only more autocratic than Trump, he is way smarter and better organized.
George Will is in the Washington Post today singing the praises of replacement savior, Ron DeSantis after he received God’s endorsement.
George Will has been desperate for someone, anyone, to replace Donald Trump for years and bring his old republican party. I don't think DeSantis has ever been in a fight with someone like Trump before. DeSantis might criticize Trump as a loser who's cost the party elections, but Trump will go after DeSantis, his wife, his kids, his parents, his grade school teachers, you name it.
So sad!
This is disappointing to hear. To say the least. I thought Will was sane. Evidently not.
Will is sane, but I suspect he, along with a lot of never-trumpers, are desperate to believe that their party will come to their senses, and might even be willing to think they have. But clearly, dumping trump solely because of election losses is cynical and disingenuous when they are not willing to address their willingness to either participate in, or silently acquiesce to, the anti-democratic crazy that isn't going away.
The problem is that a lot of the GoP electorate is firmly behind what constitutes the Trumpian-MAGA agenda. Their problem isn't with the authoritarianism or the white Christian nationalism, or making things easier and cheaper for the plutocrats through tax cuts and deregulation--the problem is (as you point out) Trump costs them at the polls.
That's it.
So, regardless of who the GoP nominee is, you are going to get some variation of that whole thing.
Sure the election denialism is probably going to fade a bit--until Trump loses his first primary, anyway.
Ultimately, the GoP may be willing to turn away from Trump (if not Trumpism). But I doubt they have the courage to do the things necessary.
And while they might be willing to turn away, Trump is not willing to let them go--and THAT is the actual problem for the GoP. They have this tar baby stuck to them that they are not going to be easily rid of.
Unless Trump's grip on the MAGA electorate wanes, it's going to be hard for anyone to challenge him seriously. Ron DeSantis, for example, might decide that it's not in his interest to get into a brawl with Trump now when all he has to do is wait 4 years.
The problem for republicans will be extracating themselves from MAGAism. As Tim pointed out the other day, that would involve the kind of courage none of the elected Rs have shown so far - the willingness to lose an election to save the party from its extremists.
Regardless of their nominee, I don't think they win the WH in 2024. Inflation is widely and credibly believed to return to a normal 2%-ish sometime next year. And then there's time for the upcoming layoffs in the tech sectors to rebound. However bloody their primary becomes, if trump loses, I can never imagine him quietly saying "the voters have spoken". More likely he targets the GOP as his BIGLIEST enemies, over the Dems, and some percentage of the 30-40% Always Trump MAGAts will stick with him and be outraged. They will follow trump's urging to either stay home or vote against the GOP, and even if that is just 10-15% of the 30-40%, it's enough to swing the election.
We can only hope.
Spot on, MM. Even if Trump doesn't get the nomination [IF], Trumpism is still alive and well and has taken over what used to be the GOP. DeSantis is a Trump impersonator. So is Hawley. Cruz has so little backbone he didn't stand up for his own wife and father. Who exactly is the 'turn-the-page/fresh-start' candidate?
Asa Hutchinson?
Most people would probably say, "Asa who?"
Ben Sasse? Er, no. Not electable and he has a new gig.
Liz Cheney? Too principled, too honest. She actually takes her oath to the constitution seriously! LOL.
It would seem that anyone "electable" that the GOP puts up will be unfit for office. Not sure why, but that's where we are.
The problem is that anyone who makes it through a republican primary is, by definition, not acceptable to a general electorate. The republican base has become so extreme that only an extremist can win. That's a formula for defeat in a general election.
An excellent point.