Mona is saying what every liberal I know has been saying for decades - if you're truly pro-life, and not just the Cult of the Fetus, then start acting like it by caring for women and children who need kindness, compassion, and help. The problem is everything I can think of that would meaningfully reduce abortion rates - other than a comp…
Mona is saying what every liberal I know has been saying for decades - if you're truly pro-life, and not just the Cult of the Fetus, then start acting like it by caring for women and children who need kindness, compassion, and help. The problem is everything I can think of that would meaningfully reduce abortion rates - other than a complete ban, obviously - is anathema to the religious right and the GOP base.
* Free contraception? Nah, feels good to slut shame.
* Robust, evidence-based sex education? No way! That'll just encourage the little horndogs and make Baby Jesus weep!
* More money to Planned Parenthood for prenatal care? Um, Margret Sanger was into eugenics and you support her, so...
* Universal healthcare? Go back to Commiestan, commie!
* Free daycare? What, I'm going to pay a babysitter because loose women can't live moral lives?
* Improve the safety net? That's how it started in Venezuela!
And on and on it goes...
The plain fact is the Republican base and the religious right care far more about control, punishment, and harsh consequences than they do about life. That cruelty has been a major part of their rhetoric for decades. It has momentum. Besides, they *like* it. It's a socially acceptable way to be a loud, obnoxious bully.
Try to imagine a GOP leader standing in front of their supporters and saying "Hey, you know those murderous sluts we've been howling about since the 80s? Well, we maybe overstated things it a bit. They're actually people like you and me and we need to withhold judgement and help them. Also, we changed our minds, and giving money to single mothers isn't socialism anymore. Any questions?"
Can I add, for the love of all that is good, can we stop acting like "Crisis pregnancy centers" and Charities are a substitute for comprehensive policies?
The idea that some free diapers and parenting classes is going to convince women to carry a kid to term is dumb.
Free birth control. Free comprehensive pre-natal, delivery, and post partum care. Paid maternity leave. Child allowances.
Mona - Roe was in place for 50 YEARS and the powers that be never took the opportunity to do what you are suggesting - provide financial support to the woman so she could choose to go through with the birth if she wanted.
In fact - just the opposite is true - wisconsin used to have a welfare system that generated constant harping about welfare moms who "had additional babies so they could collect more money." So it was "reformed."
Since you acknowledge that most women who terminate an unplanned pregnancy are low income and feel they can't afford the child let's be realistic about the kind of financial support that is needed and will NEVER happen. 1) aid during pregnancy for clothing, doctor visits and vitamins 2) a year of paid maternity leave and help purchasing diapers/cribs/baby clothes 3) supplements for child care that keep the out of pocket cost to the working mother either free or to a minimum.
And realistically - even once out of the baby stage and with the woman back to work - she probably did not magically get a raise to accommodate the additional costs for the growing child so are you going to advocate 18 years of financial supplements?
The half of the country that thinks everyone should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps will never agree to financially support poor women's children.
The religious right do NOT want to spend their money to help someone they think does not deserve it because "she did not keep her legs together." (actual quote from my family member)
"Every abortion is a tragedy and frankly, a moral failure." I certainly hope Mona means its a moral failure on the part of the country - not on the part of the woman or man involved. But the reality she refuses to face is that there are plenty of other reasons for an abortion to be the best option for a particular woman (abusive partner/age/health) that money can't necessarily fix. And that the option of adoption also can't fix. Abortion bans do a lot more than provide "a nuisance factor for poor and minority women in red and purple states" - wow that's quite a statement!
This is why many of us pro-lifers were ultimately driven out of the Republican Party. There remains a mismatch between what Republicans say (eliminate abortion) and do (encourage abortion through removing every prop and any help for struggling women and children).
I’m counting it down now. The rest of my pro-life friends are going to realize very, very soon when the Republican Party turns pro-choice in order to save their power. This was never about the babies, never.
Your friends are going to have to let go of the poor reasoning that maintains pro choice is pro abortion. It's not. It's about preserving a right to needed health care, not letting couples avoid responsibility. Pro life advocates are also going to have to deal with the fact they are forcing their beliefs about abortion on women and medical providers, but pro choicers have never forced a woman or a medical provider to choose abortion. It is pro choicers who actually honor God's greatest gift to humanity---free will.
It's a woman's choice to assume responsibility as well which is why Pro lifers stress adoption as a pro life choice. But, as a post birth pro lifer, I think it's perfectly acceptable to legislate biological parents take some responsibility for the outcome of their previous sexual choice. Hence I carefully chose the word 'couples.'
Have you adopted or fostered an unhealthy child? One of the ones that some women tearfully decide to abort because there is such poor support for her and that unhealthy child? If not, I propose that you consider the golden rule and how it applies in this situation.
What about the life or health of the woman? Do you care more about an unborn fetus than the living, breathing mother?
I am pro-choice, but not pro-abortion. Same as most Americans.
No I have not adopted, but for 20 years worked with these kids in a Community Mental Health Center, for which the last 10 I ran the residential program. We had a lot of kids aging out of the youth system whose parents, usually the father, were totally uninvolved in their lives. This is not to say their mothers were really involved in their lives. Moms were usually looking for the next boyfriend not necessarily providing emotional support for the existing kids. I learned that we have a lot of kids in this country born into homes, or adopted into homes, that don't really provide the support children need to maintain healthy development....and in most cases, it's because their parents never grew up in an environment that supported them. In other words, it's truly generational and I hope it doesn't take seven generations to get over the mistakes of the parents.
Actually, I taught in a GED program for drop outs. Most were teen mothers with kids. They never considered abortion. Probably couldn't afford one if they did. They didn't mind being teen mothers because their mothers were teen unmarried mothers too. They will receive aid and food stamps for the 18 years. Since the women were woefully uneducated, they went to the GED class because it was free, they probably wouldn't get a job anyway. Help financially would be necessary for let's say a college student who gets pregnant.
I was a teen mother, had teachers just like you. Teachers like this cared less if we were in class, cared less if we learned anything and pretty openly let us know what failures we were from the get go. The aid I got in the late 1970's was $384.00 a month for AFDC. My rent was $230.00, electric ran about $30.00 and local phone I was required to have was another $30.00. Out of the meager $94.00 that was left I provided all my son's food, diapers, clothing, etc. It cost 10 cents to ride the bus then and I couldn't afford it. I walked to those classes over a mile each way and became the first in my family to graduate. I lived in Minnesota at the time. Oh and those food stamps, my condescending case worker never told me about those, let alone medicaid. So, if you haven't actually taken any time to know what a single mother's life is like from the inside, maybe you should listen more.
Thank you Cath. Great response. I have been a mental health case manager and can actually believe your case worker didn't have the skills to navigate the system and it was just easier to ignore those pesky joint federal and state programs. We still call the Office of Public Assistance, the Office of Public Resistance....especially under GOP governors.
Definitely free birth control. I am PRO birth control; not pro abortion. Generally 3rd term abortions are done because there has been some tragedy, generally, not because some silly woman has changed her mind.
The fascist tactics which emphasize “us vs them” are attractive to many. Many social media sites accentuate this. Educate yourself about how to mitigate manipulation by reading more in-depth books and articles which allow time for reflection. Start with “How Fascism Works”and “How Propaganda Works”, 2 books by Jason Stanley.
Mona is saying what every liberal I know has been saying for decades - if you're truly pro-life, and not just the Cult of the Fetus, then start acting like it by caring for women and children who need kindness, compassion, and help. The problem is everything I can think of that would meaningfully reduce abortion rates - other than a complete ban, obviously - is anathema to the religious right and the GOP base.
* Free contraception? Nah, feels good to slut shame.
* Robust, evidence-based sex education? No way! That'll just encourage the little horndogs and make Baby Jesus weep!
* More money to Planned Parenthood for prenatal care? Um, Margret Sanger was into eugenics and you support her, so...
* Universal healthcare? Go back to Commiestan, commie!
* Free daycare? What, I'm going to pay a babysitter because loose women can't live moral lives?
* Improve the safety net? That's how it started in Venezuela!
And on and on it goes...
The plain fact is the Republican base and the religious right care far more about control, punishment, and harsh consequences than they do about life. That cruelty has been a major part of their rhetoric for decades. It has momentum. Besides, they *like* it. It's a socially acceptable way to be a loud, obnoxious bully.
Try to imagine a GOP leader standing in front of their supporters and saying "Hey, you know those murderous sluts we've been howling about since the 80s? Well, we maybe overstated things it a bit. They're actually people like you and me and we need to withhold judgement and help them. Also, we changed our minds, and giving money to single mothers isn't socialism anymore. Any questions?"
I mean, I'd love to see it, but...
Can I add, for the love of all that is good, can we stop acting like "Crisis pregnancy centers" and Charities are a substitute for comprehensive policies?
The idea that some free diapers and parenting classes is going to convince women to carry a kid to term is dumb.
Free birth control. Free comprehensive pre-natal, delivery, and post partum care. Paid maternity leave. Child allowances.
Yay! Thank you for your common sense.
Mona - Roe was in place for 50 YEARS and the powers that be never took the opportunity to do what you are suggesting - provide financial support to the woman so she could choose to go through with the birth if she wanted.
In fact - just the opposite is true - wisconsin used to have a welfare system that generated constant harping about welfare moms who "had additional babies so they could collect more money." So it was "reformed."
Since you acknowledge that most women who terminate an unplanned pregnancy are low income and feel they can't afford the child let's be realistic about the kind of financial support that is needed and will NEVER happen. 1) aid during pregnancy for clothing, doctor visits and vitamins 2) a year of paid maternity leave and help purchasing diapers/cribs/baby clothes 3) supplements for child care that keep the out of pocket cost to the working mother either free or to a minimum.
And realistically - even once out of the baby stage and with the woman back to work - she probably did not magically get a raise to accommodate the additional costs for the growing child so are you going to advocate 18 years of financial supplements?
The half of the country that thinks everyone should pull themselves up by their own bootstraps will never agree to financially support poor women's children.
The religious right do NOT want to spend their money to help someone they think does not deserve it because "she did not keep her legs together." (actual quote from my family member)
bingo: "Roe was in place for 50 YEARS and the powers that be never took the opportunity to do what you are suggesting". Roe was the compromise.
"Every abortion is a tragedy and frankly, a moral failure." I certainly hope Mona means its a moral failure on the part of the country - not on the part of the woman or man involved. But the reality she refuses to face is that there are plenty of other reasons for an abortion to be the best option for a particular woman (abusive partner/age/health) that money can't necessarily fix. And that the option of adoption also can't fix. Abortion bans do a lot more than provide "a nuisance factor for poor and minority women in red and purple states" - wow that's quite a statement!
Everyone hated it when Hillary said "safe, legal, and rare" but that has always been the right answer as long as most of what you say also happens.
This is why many of us pro-lifers were ultimately driven out of the Republican Party. There remains a mismatch between what Republicans say (eliminate abortion) and do (encourage abortion through removing every prop and any help for struggling women and children).
I’m counting it down now. The rest of my pro-life friends are going to realize very, very soon when the Republican Party turns pro-choice in order to save their power. This was never about the babies, never.
Your friends are going to have to let go of the poor reasoning that maintains pro choice is pro abortion. It's not. It's about preserving a right to needed health care, not letting couples avoid responsibility. Pro life advocates are also going to have to deal with the fact they are forcing their beliefs about abortion on women and medical providers, but pro choicers have never forced a woman or a medical provider to choose abortion. It is pro choicers who actually honor God's greatest gift to humanity---free will.
"It's about preserving a right to needed health care, not letting couples avoid responsibility."
"Couples"?
Men's avoidance of responsibility is baked into the biology -- it is their "choice" to assume it
It's a woman's choice to assume responsibility as well which is why Pro lifers stress adoption as a pro life choice. But, as a post birth pro lifer, I think it's perfectly acceptable to legislate biological parents take some responsibility for the outcome of their previous sexual choice. Hence I carefully chose the word 'couples.'
Have you adopted or fostered an unhealthy child? One of the ones that some women tearfully decide to abort because there is such poor support for her and that unhealthy child? If not, I propose that you consider the golden rule and how it applies in this situation.
What about the life or health of the woman? Do you care more about an unborn fetus than the living, breathing mother?
I am pro-choice, but not pro-abortion. Same as most Americans.
No I have not adopted, but for 20 years worked with these kids in a Community Mental Health Center, for which the last 10 I ran the residential program. We had a lot of kids aging out of the youth system whose parents, usually the father, were totally uninvolved in their lives. This is not to say their mothers were really involved in their lives. Moms were usually looking for the next boyfriend not necessarily providing emotional support for the existing kids. I learned that we have a lot of kids in this country born into homes, or adopted into homes, that don't really provide the support children need to maintain healthy development....and in most cases, it's because their parents never grew up in an environment that supported them. In other words, it's truly generational and I hope it doesn't take seven generations to get over the mistakes of the parents.
Actually, I taught in a GED program for drop outs. Most were teen mothers with kids. They never considered abortion. Probably couldn't afford one if they did. They didn't mind being teen mothers because their mothers were teen unmarried mothers too. They will receive aid and food stamps for the 18 years. Since the women were woefully uneducated, they went to the GED class because it was free, they probably wouldn't get a job anyway. Help financially would be necessary for let's say a college student who gets pregnant.
I was a teen mother, had teachers just like you. Teachers like this cared less if we were in class, cared less if we learned anything and pretty openly let us know what failures we were from the get go. The aid I got in the late 1970's was $384.00 a month for AFDC. My rent was $230.00, electric ran about $30.00 and local phone I was required to have was another $30.00. Out of the meager $94.00 that was left I provided all my son's food, diapers, clothing, etc. It cost 10 cents to ride the bus then and I couldn't afford it. I walked to those classes over a mile each way and became the first in my family to graduate. I lived in Minnesota at the time. Oh and those food stamps, my condescending case worker never told me about those, let alone medicaid. So, if you haven't actually taken any time to know what a single mother's life is like from the inside, maybe you should listen more.
Thanks for your real life story.
Thank you Cath. Great response. I have been a mental health case manager and can actually believe your case worker didn't have the skills to navigate the system and it was just easier to ignore those pesky joint federal and state programs. We still call the Office of Public Assistance, the Office of Public Resistance....especially under GOP governors.
Definitely free birth control. I am PRO birth control; not pro abortion. Generally 3rd term abortions are done because there has been some tragedy, generally, not because some silly woman has changed her mind.
Yes... exactly! thank you Max. It is between Pro-Choice, or Anti-Choice. Makes the whole issue much clearer and more honest.
Thank you. This needed to be said.
The fascist tactics which emphasize “us vs them” are attractive to many. Many social media sites accentuate this. Educate yourself about how to mitigate manipulation by reading more in-depth books and articles which allow time for reflection. Start with “How Fascism Works”and “How Propaganda Works”, 2 books by Jason Stanley.