Christopher Miller’s Life and Times in Ukraine

Welcome to Shield of the Republic Secret Podcast sponsoring by the Bulwark and the Miller Center of public affairs at the University of Virginia and dedicated to the proposition articulated by Walter Littman during World War two that strong and balanced foreign policy is the necessary shield of our Democratic Republic. I’m Eric Edelman, a counselor at the center for strategic and budgetary assessments, a Bulwark contributor and a non resident fellow at the Miller Center. And I’m joined by my partner in all things strategic, Elliot Cohen. Robert Ozgood professor of strategy at the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies in Washington, DC, and the Arleigh Burke chair and strategy at the center for strategic and international studies. Elliott, how are you doing?

I’m doing very well. Eric. Thank you. And, very eager to have our conversation today, which Will Saletan on a book, the war came to us, which I think is really one of the best books out there. And there are actually now quite a few about the more in Ukraine, which you and I have discussed a lot.

So back over to you to introduce our guest.

Well, our guest is Christopher Miller, who has been a correspondent for that he have post for Buzzfeed News for Political and now currently, the Ukraine correspondent for the Financial Times, and he is the author of the Book Elliott mentioned the work came to us life and death in Ukraine published by Bloomsbury. Chris, welcome to shield of the Republic.

It is a pleasure to be here. Your book

is both very personal, but, also a great opportunity to get a sense of what this war really feels like on the ground. And you really know Ukraine, uncommonly well for Western journalists because you started out there as a peace corps volunteer, tell our listeners how you actually came to end up in what we now know and very famously know as Bakmoot.

Yeah. It was, you know, it it was all all a a happy or a a fortunate accident, I guess, you could say. I had been living in Portland, Oregon where I was born and raised and working as a cub reporter for some some media outlets there. And when the financial crisis hit in two thousand eight and, you know, carried through two thousand nine, I was looking for, a place to to to sort of move up into, you know, from graduate from being a cub reporter, up to something a little bit more senior, but there weren’t many jobs to be had. So I I I had this idea, given to me by family member to, take a look at the P score program.

And so I I signed up. They quickly accepted me. They asked me where I wanted to go, and they put this large map front of me, and they broke the the entire world up into eight sections. And I said, you know, I’d really like to go someplace in Africa. And they said, okay.

We’ll we’ll see what we can do. And, sometime later, they they called me up and said, we’re actually going to send you to Ukraine. How does that sound? And I said, absolutely fine. I just wanted to to have an adventure for a couple of years.

And so I ended up, coming to Ukraine and being dispatched out to Eastern Ukraine to, as you mentioned, the city of Bakmoot, which at the time, when I arrived in spring of two thousand ten, was still called Artiamovsk which is a name given to the city by the Soviets. And and, it was named after comrade Artiam, who was an ally of Stalin. And it remained, Artiam mosque until Ukraine began its decarbonization period in two thousand sixteen. So the first two years that I lived there between twenty ten and twenty twelve, working as a peace corps volunteer. It was called Artiamos.

And I got to know the place and the culture. I learned Russian met some really fantastic people. And my my task while there was to teach a variety of topics, including some English, to school age children. And I worked in, central Artile Moss at school number eleven. I had an English club at the central library.

I also taught at the, Crossney Village School or the Red Village School, which has since been renamed also after decarbonization to Yvonnevsky. And, I I I helped the, local city government with some development projects and essentially became an unofficial, American Ambassador, while while there and had a really great time doing it. And you know, there were some hiccups in the beginning, and the book, you know, discusses some of them. You know, a lot of local people wondering, why the heck an American twenty five year old has come over to Eastern Ukraine to this, little city that most people in the world have never heard of to spend two years. And it took some convincing, and and, I think several bottles of Ukrainian vodka, and, some some Borsh, and and a lot of a lot of, really rough discussions at first before they they came to to know me and really like me, but but very quickly by By the end of summer, I really felt like a a member of the community, and I fell pretty hard for this for this little town and made some really good friends who remain my friends even today.

And it really was the basis of my what would be, you know, my work as a foreign correspondent and the knowledge and experience that I would come to gain that would help me in my reporting now covering, Russia’s war here.

Chris, when we talk about about what today, of course, we think about an extraordinarily bloody battlefield, which, the Russians sort of managed to take and may now be pushed out of but in a case place completely devastated and ruined. And I I think it would be good if you could just say what what was Bob would like before war came to it.

Yeah. It was obviously a very different place. You know, it had actually been occupied previously. In World War II, the Germans occupied it for for about two years. And even during that time, they they actually did away with the Soviet name of Artiamovsk and called it, called it Bakmoot.

So under Nazi occupation, the city was returned to its historic name, and fast forward to two thousand ten. It had again been been renamed Art to Moscow when I arrived. It was quiet. People really just went about their business. They wanted to, you know, go to work make money, you know, for the weekends and and the evenings to really spend time with family.

It was sort of off the beaten path it was only an hour north of the the regional capital, Donetsk, where the president at the time was from Victor Yanokovic, and and, you know, the this was the big city in the region. You know, outside of Kiev, there’s about four other major metropolis in in in in Ukraine. Donetsk was one of them. A city of about a million people, roughly. Artil mosque, by comparison, was about seventy thousand.

So I spent my day, you know, crisscrossing the town center, which took me about ten to fifteen minutes. It wasn’t a large place. It sort of sat in this really beautiful, tiny river valley, surrounded by salt mines and sunflower fields that I used to walk through or ride my bike through. People really, you know, they they weren’t very interested in politics. I think one of the misconceptions of Ukraine is that it’s always been divided in east and west and Russian speakers and Ukrainian speakers and Ukrainian speakers and that people in the east had this real affinity, for Russia and Moscow and didn’t feel similarly toward, the rest of Ukraine and Kiev.

And what I found was a much more complex situation. People had a very strong regional identity, and they identified as people from Donetsk region or of the Don boss. Which is the the Dungus River Basin, where, Bockmoot is located. And, you know, they they didn’t despise Kiev, but they were frustrated by the capital because they felt, forgotten and sort of neglected. At that point, before before this decentralization that happened after Ukraine’s twenty fourteen revolution, a lot of Kia have decided what to do with all taxes paid in the country and they didn’t always trickle down, you know, to regional centers and then to these little regional cities.

They actually, you know, were spent in in Donetsk or in Kiev and and, found their way into the pockets of a lot of the country’s oligarchs. And so local people resented the Ukrainian elite, but they equally resented Moscow even if they had friends and family just on the other side of the border in Rostov region, for example, or to the north, in in Bulwark Road, like some of my friends, did. You know, they they saw They saw their connection with Russia as one of convenience and, geography. Obviously, the Russian border was very close. There was a lot of, cross border business happening and and family that lived on the other side.

And and that region of Eastern Ukraine is is essentially equal distance from from Kiev and Moscow. Right? So it really was, you know, kind of right in the middle of of this. These these two, sort of, conflicting capitals at times. And You know, I I thought, yeah, I found I found it to be actually a lot more of a complex place than you know, I had read about before arriving, and it became more so, in a really fascinating way.

Over the course of my years there and communicating with people and really getting to know them. And, especially during my language studies, which I think is actually a a good example. You know, everybody thinks that the people in the East speak Russian. Well, that’s generally true. But it’s it’s not accurate, you know, and you you can you realize that when you’re there because people do speak a form of Russian, but it’s more what local people there call Sojzic, which is a mix of Russian and Ukrainian.

So I had studied, some Russian in Kiev for three months before I relocated to Eastern Ukraine. And when I arrived there, I recognized people speaking Russian, but it sounded a little different than the, Russian teacher who was who was teaching me. It was softer. It had Ukrainian pronunciation and a lot of words. There were Ukrainian words that replaced Russian words.

And so it took, you know, some time also to get to get used to that. You know, and and and I think one last thing I’ll I’ll note just to underscore, you know, the fact that this wasn’t a place that favored Russia. Is there were a lot of towns and villages outside of Donetsk City and outside of the cities in the region. Where a a vast majority of the local residents spoke Ukrainian. And I would go and visit some friends at their country house or a, you know, a little cottage often a village of two hundred people or three hundred people.

And I’d find that it was actually, difficult to communicate with people there in my at the time rudimentary Russian because a lot of them had actually come over from Western Ukraine trying to flee the Germans advanced during world war two and settled in these towns and villages. And with them, they brought their Ukraine their western upbringing culture and Ukrainian language And, yeah, you know, so it was actually just more of, a colorful complex place than a lot of people make it out to be. And you you know, as as, somebody who’s, you know, as two people who’ve who’ve worked on this region and and and read a lot of coverage about it, that you know, sometimes we oversimplify things, and that’s what I was really trying to step away from in the book. And I had plenty of space to do it in. So I was I was pleased that I could finally explain some of what I just said in in in in in this project.

The book is very good on that. And I if I could just ask a one quick question on that, so the cliche is that the war, which should many ways began in twenty fourteen, but then, of course, you have the the invasion in twenty twenty two, has altered the collective Ukrainian sense of identity. And I was wondering is, do you agree with that? Is that, you know, you just described something that was quite complicated, although distinctively Ukrainian. But but is that now very, very different or not?

Yeah. That’s a really good question. I think to put it simply, If if Vladimir Putin set out to turn Ukrainians against each other and to bring them on his side, He has done the exact opposite in invading a country and, causing great destruction through regions where he had some sympathizers. And and I don’t want to say, a majority of sympathizers, but, you know, places like Odessa Harkiv, Donetsk, Lugansk, the Nipropotros, Zaporizhzhyan, Crimea. These are all places in the south where the Russian language was the language predominantly spoken, and people did have some sympathies or interest in Russia, but after the twenty fourteen invasion, You know, and especially, I mean, in the years since and certainly after February twenty twenty two, we see a Ukrainian population that is more united and pro Ukrainian, and not only that, but anti Russian than ever before.

And, you know, the polls show that anecdotally, I can tell you from conversations here that, you know, Russia is widely despised. That if, you know, if if if anybody had an inkling of of, sympathy for Russia after twenty fourteen. And some and some people did, including those who, you know, were, were, were, were stuck or chose to remain on, the Russian occupied side in in Ukraine, alright, in McGansk and UNESCO blasts. You know, then many of them now are completely against completely against Russia. And there’s there’s no coming back from this.

It’s, you know, Putin has gone too far, done too much wreaked too much havoc destroyed the lives and and, cities of people, including including Bakmoot, which is, you know, for all intents and purposes, destroyed. It’ll have to be completely rebuilt if Ukraine ever, ever retakes it. Yeah, you know, I’m talking to you from a city where I I heard, you know, a majority of Russians spoken until, the, the full scale invasion. You know, here in Kiev, it’s It’s been, you know, a very much a Russian speaking city as much as a Ukrainian speaking city, but now people are very consciously making the decision to switch and, you know, there’s a really strong, really strong anti Russian sentiment here.

Your understanding of the complexities, Chris, I think kind of really suited you for the next sort of phase of of your life when you decided to become a correspondent for the Keith Post and the key of post, you might wanna explain to our listeners what it, what it actually was and what it did. But, I mean, in a sense, it was very engaged in sort of, not, you know, without risk, journalism, exposing a lot of the corruption that was endemic in post Soviet, Ukraine. And some of that muckraking journalism, some of those revelations, when I say not without risk, I mean, there were journalists and you know, earlier period like on god’s day under Kuchema who were literally beheaded killed. But even in your time, journalists were, you know, roughed up, beaten, some killed, while people were exposing, the, the party of regions in Yonakovic’s corruption. All of which ultimately culminates in the, the revolution of twenty fourteen, that takes place at the, so called Euromidon, which is one of the most dramatic episodes, of the book because you were there.

So can you talk a little bit about your transition into muckraking journalism and then how you came to be, you know, present at the revolution as it were.

Yeah. My my time in Eastern Ukraine as a peace corps volunteer really got me interested in Ukrainian politics and the anti corruption efforts of a lot of, Ukrainian reformers and activists and to use your your your your term here, muckraking journalists. I met a couple of guys in Donetsk City, and they had invited me to give some lectures on, the western style of journalism and how we do reporting back in the US. For the Donetsk press club. And so I I I got to train, a a dozen or so local Eastern Ukrainian journalists who, you know, were were, very interested in learning how we did journalism back in the United States and and, you know, journalism is done very differently over here.

A lot of it is very favorable coverage, paid for coverage, you know, the the all of the major television stations, even today, are still owned by a lot of the country’s most powerful businessmen and oligarchs And so if you turn on one station, it’s, generally, maybe not right now because they’re they’re all against Russia, but Back then, you know, one station would attack the other stations owner and and the and vice versa. So you know, I had finished my peace corps service and and decided that I wanted to to stay in Ukraine. But but I also wanted to get in back into journalism and so to scratch that itch, I decided that I would move to Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, and find a job as a reporter here. And because I’ve been out of the game for a couple of years, it, you know, I wasn’t able to immediately find a job at a major Western publication. But we had this newspaper called the Key of Post.

And, you know, to describe what it is, it’s essentially it was it was one of many English language newspapers that popped up after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and was founded by, you know, a westerner native English speaker who wanted to essentially tell a western audience from a very local ground level perspective what was going on in all of these former Soviet republics that were now independent states. So there were there there was, of course, the Moscow times in Russia. There was the Prague post in in the Czech Republic and there was the key of post here and vast majority of other ones. I I worked at the key of post under, an American editor and with, several Ukrainian journalists, and it was the one place because it was independently owned and not beholden to any powerful political interest where we could do real journalism and investigative reporting without, you know, the censorship that a lot of the Ukrainian newsrooms, faced And, you know, that meant that meant getting into some trouble at times, but, you know, doing some really important stories that drove new cycles here, and even, you know, a lot of the international cycles, we would oftentimes be the first to report on, you know, some kind of, corruption scandal before even the New York Times or the Washington post or the Wall Street Journal or, you know, would would would report on on this, because most foreign correspondents at that time weren’t based in Kiev, but rather in in Moscow.

And that also gave me a leg up and would would give me a leg up in in, reporting on on Ukraine in years to come, because a lot of foreign correspondents would only come here if there was a revolution or a war. But I had I I was here the entire time. So, you know, working at the Kia post, yeah, was was absolutely fascinating and a real, chance for me to cut my teeth in foreign correspondents. And I gave a lot of credit to a woman named Katay Gorsinskaya, who was my editor at the time, and became a very, very close friend of mine. She, in her heyday as a young journalist, was was known for being especially tough, and asking difficult questions and even challenging the, the president, Lienid Kuchma on on live TV and and his powerful, chief of staff, Victor Metviceuk at the time too.

And, you know, she had great news since. She really helped me understand the country and to dig up stories. And while I worked there for, what, I guess, nearly a year, we did a lot of that type of reporting, and then the Euro maidan protests broke out. So that entered, you know, that that began a new phase not only in Ukraine’s, you know, modern, history and and putting it on this westward path, but also in my, reporting, career, you know, it’s it began as a protest. It was peaceful.

I was there in the first days. You know, Ukrainians in the dozens, the many dozens, or a few hundred, you know, we’re we’re out there holding signs, protesting against then president, Viktor Yankovic’s decision to turn away from the European Union and not sign this much anticipated and hoped for association agreement, but rather to turn back eastward toward Moscow and to seek a a a bailout from of, from from Russia. And, you know, I remember after a couple of weeks of this, or a week a week, week and a half, it wasn’t too long. One of my colleagues and I at the Key Post actually co authored a story that said the Euro maidan protests are are, are dying out. It doesn’t look like they’re gonna be able to sustain them.

Yana Kovic could win this. And how are they gonna move from the streets to, other actions to put pressure on the government. And then Yanokovic sent his security forces to beat up brutally attack a bunch of young college students on Independence Square. And from that moment on, this protest, this peaceful protest, you know, really transformed into a revolution, that lasted for three months total. You know, I was there day in, day out spending long, long, very cold nights around barrel fires talking with revolutionaries.

And, you know, until until the end of February when Victor Yankovic fled the country and the revolutionaries declared victory and and, put in a, a new temporary government. It was a really a really wild time. And and I did it, you know, while while working for the key of post and and, filing, you know, several reports a day, but also working as a stringer for, several other, international media organizations. A lot of them British newspapers, like the Telegraph, the Independent, and the Times of London, and And, yeah, I mean, it was it was, you know, I I could sense then that it was not only a moment of great change for myself professionally, but a huge, huge moment for Ukraine and Ukrainians but even then, we, you know, still didn’t really know what was what was just ahead of us.

Could you expand on that a bit? Because I think it it it seems to me that, many of us in the West really missed the significance of the Euro maidan movement or is the I think the Ukrainians’s, like to refer to it the revolution of dignity And as a result, not fully understanding that in twenty twenty two, which isn’t that long after. It’s, you know, what, eight years or so. It’s almost like you’re dealing with a different country because at the same time, you’re also having the Russian seizure of Crimea and Don boss in which know, the Ukrainian military is, really flat on its back is not able to do very much at least, at least initially. This is very, very different from what we’ve been seeing over the last year and a half with a a military that is in many ways quite competent and a civil society that’s aroused and a government that’s, you know, maybe a flawed democracy, but definitely democratic.

So could you just walk us through how you know, what was that transition like? And, what are the things that people don’t know about it that they probably should.

Mhmm. Yeah. I think a lot of people assume that it was a revolution that was about just getting Ukraine onto a European path, the path that it had, been on before Yonakovic rescinded this deal. But after the violence of of this this this attack on university students, in in in late twenty thirteen, you know, it became a revolution of dignity and and not, and and and moved beyond your maidan because people were angry at corrupting at state, at the state’s use of violence. But they also wanted, to sign this association agreement with the EU, but not all of them did.

There actually was this mix of a lot of uh-uh political viewpoints. You had anti corruption very pro democratic, reform activists involved, but also, you know, throwing molotov cocktails right beside you know, groups of of far right wing, Ukrainian nationalists who, were beside, let’s say, journalists turned, Euro maidan, revolutionaries, old young, families from, you know, all parts, all corners of the country coming out there, to protest against, you know, a a a vast array of of of issues. To, you know, change their country, completely, I think. And and and for the better, like, essentially my don, with with my don, the country crossed a Rubicon. Like, there was no going back after the Ouster of of Victor Yana Kovich.

And certainly the future of any, illicit pro Russian party had had had been dashed. You know, there would still remain a pro Russian party even up to February of twenty twenty two. But they would never see the type of support that they had, while fifty three in the Cove, which was in power, prerevolution. It really meant that Ukraine was at that point, going to remain farther from Russia than it had ever been before, that it would that that it really was set on its western path. Now that path, of course, would be riddled with with various obstacles, and sometimes they would over the next many years take two steps forward and one step back.

Ukraine does, have this uncanny ability to be its own worst enemy. And you know, put forward, ideas and reforms that on paper look great, but there is a lot of devil in the details. And, you know, some of them would still some some of these, reform efforts would still serve powerful interests. But but ultimately what what The revolution meant was that Ukrainians were sick and tired of the old way. They had come too far after the collapse the Soviet union with all of these governments that, were more self interested or too friendly with Russia, and they weren’t going to go back, that they they were moving forward, and that meant effectively moving westward.

Now if you also, I guess, to talk about the military, at that time, you know, the, what we saw during the revolution was a a a pretty strong riot police force. A a street force of of police, that, you know, very much operated, as as as more of a a brute force than a law enforcement agency. You know, shortly after, I mean, it was just right, what days after, Yankovic fled the country that Russian forces covertly invaded the peninsula of of of crimea. And, you know, with that, what we what we saw was how weak this, the the the military had grown under Yana Kovic, and not only, but even under the more western friendly, Victor, Ushenko. Before him, you know, over over decades, the military was, was, essentially just not not not viewed as a priority.

And russia was not was not understood that Russia would invade. It’s it’s it’s it’s neighbor. Right? It’s it’s, it’s it’s friend. And so they didn’t see the state didn’t see a lot of reason to invest in the military.

But also a lot of a lot of money that was meant for the military was being siphoned off by these, you know, extreme, extremely corrupt, leaders. And by the time Russia invaded Crimea, of the the the acting president at the time, Alexander Turchinov told me that he had just five thousand to six thousand, military personnel who had, any form of of actual military experience. Many of them as peacekeepers abroad because Ukraine keeps used to participate in a very big way in in peacekeeping operations. You know, or or a Soviet military experience and and, maybe some of these, western exercises that were also happening in the Bulwark Sea, and that was just not enough to fight back against a much more powerful Russian army. And so it was, you know, there there were people, touching of himself included who at the time wanted to.

And thought assistance, including from president Barack Obama at the time, and we’re told explicitly stand down. Do not do not respond. Any response, could lead to a greater you know, greater military aggression on Russia’s side. And so they did. And and what happened was this this, you know, taken apart disassembled military was demoralized.

They didn’t stand up and fight some of them joined the Russian side. And when the Russians, very quietly moved into eastern Ukraine and began taking over a city after city, they they still didn’t do anything. And and so, you know, what what happened was the revolution force that was on the maidan during the winter of twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, became Ukraine’s military response. These these volunteers who previously were hucking molotov cocktails and paving stones and sticks at at police took up arms and rushed to the front to try to stop the Russian advance in east. So fast forward to twenty twenty two.

And what happened is, and I I won’t jump too far ahead of myself, but you see a very, very different army. But it grew from these volunteers and and people who with very little, if any, you know, military experience or or, Soviet era training, you know, rushed to respond, and then over years of of western training and, reforms it grew into this military that would eventually be able to keep the Russians from advancing on Kia?

Since we’re we’re transitioning to talk about the the Russian invasion. I was wondering if I could ask a follow-up, which is I think, you know, one of the great things about the book, among many, is, you actually spent time in Crimea, and you spent time in Don boss. And I think one of the, again, one of the beliefs prevalent in some circles in the west as well. The Ukrainian never really thought of Crimea as particularly Ukrainian. It’s really Russian.

Know, that’s probably because they’ve heard of have a stopel. And Dunbos was always a pro Russian area filled with Russian speakers. So it’s sort of natural that it, fell into the hands of the Russians. And I was wondering if you could just comment on that. I mean, to what extent, if any, is that true, or is it false?

Yeah. I well, you know, I I I really loved Crimea because coming from, Oregon, with mountains and rivers and and forests, you know, it reminded me a lot of some of the the the seaside, terrain and and geography there. And so I I used to try to go down there as much as I could, especially during the summer when it warm and and the water was great. And and, you know, I I would go down there and feel pretty comfortable getting around in my Russian because a vast majority of people spoke Russian. I do not recall anyone speaking Ukrainian to me.

No. But that didn’t mean that people were anti Ukrainian or or or even pro Russian. There were certainly a lot of Russian flags down there at the time, and and a lot of pro Russians sentiment, and you and you could you could see that, and and get a good sense of that. The Ukrainian capital felt a long a long ways away from Crimea. That’s for sure.

And if you go if you went down to the ports instead of a stop all at the time in particular, you would see the Bulwark the the the Bulwark sea the Russian Bulwark Sea fleet, including the Moscow cruiser, parked in Sevastopol Bay. I remember I even took photographs of it it was out there because it was the first worship of that type that I had, certainly ever seen. And so, you know, the Russian the Russians were there in Crimea. They had a lease to keep their their navy vessels there. This lease was ex expanded, by, extended, rather, by, Victoriana Kovich during his time.

In a really controversial move, if if you both recall, which I think allowed the Russians to lease, to to lease the Bay through the twenty forties, which is quite a long time. So, you know, these Russian soldiers, and and and and navy navy men who invaded actually came from the Bulwark Sea fleet down there.

It enabled them if I recall correctly that agreement by Anna Kovich to actually increase the number of personnel they had.

Yes. I think to around twenty five thousand. Right?

Yeah. Something like that.

Yeah. So if you’ve got twenty five thousand, give or take, Russian soldiers taking over the peninsula and less than five, or roughly five thousand Ukrainians soldiers in the entire country who are able to respond. It’s it’s, you know, you you see why why Ukraine was in a difficult position and and and and probably couldn’t have done much to respond, without significant and and very, fast western help. And so, yeah, you know, there and and I think because of that, also, that that that Russian presence there, you know, there there were certainly a lot of a lot of folks who were Russia friendly and did believe that life under Russian control would be better. Pensioners in particular had you know, an an nostalgic idea of Russia, and they would remember their life in the Soviet Union when they had a little bit more more more money and, felt that their their pensions would would be a little bit more, if if they were still under Russia who welcomed, a lot of these Russian soldiers as they took over.

And if you remember, the the Russian soldiers, they essentially took over the peninsula without firing a shot. And it was one of the strangest things I I I’ve ever seen, you know, a a a a really heavily armed, army. Storming a large swath of territory without having to even fire a shot and being greeted by a lot of people you know, with open arms. And, you know, that’s what they just earned them the, the, the nickname, polite people And there’s, now a statue that stand that stands in a crimea that was put up by the Russian occupation authorities of of a soldier, and and a and a little cat and a woman coming up to him because there were plenty of people, a lot of people who welcomed this Russian occupation. That said, there were many others who did not, but they didn’t really have a voice.

There weren’t a lot of people willing to stand up and and fight back against this this, slow moving insidious invasion for very obvious reasons, you know, and and, Kremlin and Tatars, in particular, re re recalling life after, being being taken, to to, the far east of Russia or many places in in in, central central Asia, forcibly deported under Stalin. You know, many of them had only come back in the last twenty, twenty years after the fall of the Soviet Union. So they were rebuilding rebuilding their homes and and and their community, when when this happened, And they were certainly a a group of people that did not support the Russian occupation of of of Crimea.

Probably bears mentioning here as well that, long before it was part of the Russian empire, it was a Tatar, Khanet. So, in the end of the arguments that one hears sometimes that this is a historically Russian territory from time immemorial is is, you know, really a kind of falsification of of the history.

Well, most of Putin’s justifications are are false too. Right? I mean, he says the Don boss is Russian, but actually, it it’s not. It was ruled by, you know, Kossacks, wild Kossacks on the wild wild step for for for for a lot longer, than it was under, Moscow’s rule. Right?

And I think, you know, it was, it was tens of thousands of Russians who were brought into eastern Ukraine during Russia’s industrialization period to run the factories to to ensure that they were controlled, by folks connected to Moscow, not in Kiev. So they essentially russified even Eastern Ukraine too. So any sympathies that are pro Russian sympathies pro Russian sympathies in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea were largely because, you know, Russia had forced itself on, both of these regions.

I mean, as I listen to you speak too, about the Euro maidan and whatnot. It did strike me because this has obviously been another part of Russian Agitrop. That there was nothing to do with NATO about this, the revolution in twenty fourteen. Yes. It’s true that in two thousand eight at the Bucharest NATO summit, the members of NATO had said, you know, at some point in the future, Georgia and Ukraine will be members of NATO, but at that point, it was It was not, you know, really in the cards at any time soon under Yankovic that actually came part of the Ukrainian constitution that they couldn’t join NATO And so the threat of NATO membership or of a military threat of some kind to Russia, just as you describe it, just non existent I mean, this is just a total invention.

And and one of the things that has, you know, struck me about reading your book was as you particularly describe the next kind of phase here, which was the fighting in Don bass, it really gives you a great sense of both of the complete mandacity of the Russians as they were doing all this, but also the in incredible brutality. And and one of the things you discuss in the book is your tendency to, whenever you were visiting the front to go to the morgues and hospitals, to, to try and talk to people there. You wanna explain to our listeners why you did that?

Yeah. You know, as as a reporter, I try to get the the fullest picture I can. And to speak with as many people I can and to see things with my own eyes and to get out of Kiev as much as possible. And covering the war in twenty fourteen, Russia’s first invasion, I spent a lot of time back in Eastern Ukraine where it was unfolding, because I was very comfortable in that region. I knew people.

I knew all of these cities. I had worked and volunteered in all of them. I had great contacts and sources. You know, and I even had a lot of a lot of, friends and acquaintances who, you know, took up arms or, participated in one way or another on both sides. And and so, you know, I I I I I benefited from having these these local contacts.

And so when I went out there, whether I was in the Russian occupied side during this twenty fourteen invasion or the Ukrainian side, I knew that I could roll into a city and, you know, drop a a name or a or a place you know, to to somebody and, be be, allowed to go and and and talk to these people at a local government building or, schools, or, yes, even the morgue. And I, I would find that in the morgue and I mean, when when the violence really began, and I think, you know, it it really it really turned into a war because Russia so Russia Russia’s invasion forces in Crimea moved to the Don boss in Eastern Ukraine in the spring. April is when they began taking over these buildings in Slaviance and crematoris, Constantino, the doneets, but it really didn’t become a war until the Donetsk airport battle. At the end of May, the day after Ukraine’s presidential election, And, you know, I was there and I I was I was in the middle of this gunfight, which was something I had never experienced before. It was absolutely terrifying.

And I was seeing, soldiers, being cut down by helicopter fire by RPGs, by by, a small lens fire, but I still felt like I didn’t have a full picture of what had happened. And so the day after, I thought, okay, I’m going to go check out the hospitals, and I’m gonna go to the morgue. I knew exactly where they were because I had a friend during my peace corps days who actually live next door to this building. And so I went there and When I walked in, when I saw was a pile of of of of bodies, that stretched halfway between the floor and the ceiling, almost as tall as as as I am, and I started counting. And that’s when, you know, the you know, what was what was unfolding really became clear to me.

And I think when it when it felt very much like a like a war, and I could see what was you know, what the cost of this was going to be. And I knew that it would only get worse because the soldiers on the Russian side who were seeing these bodies were furious because they were their own that were being killed. Later, I would cross back over the front line and see similar scenes in hospitals on the brain and controlled side. And I would see how infuriated the Ukrainian soldiers and and civilians and family members of those killed were. And I I I just knew that this was going to blow up in a really terrible and tragic way.

And those places gave me a more intimate glimpse into the real the real cost of war. And, I I think from that from that moment on, I I knew that I didn’t really want to write a whole lot about the geopolitics of it. And, what was happening in in Washington and Moscow and I really set out to tell stories on the ground of the people impacted because it did feel as, at times as though, You know, I was in the middle of this, watching all of this happen, but people were just talking about what is Moscow saying? What is Washington doing? What is the European Union doing?

But nobody was was really talking about the people who were fighting, the people who were dying. And, you know, I made it a point to try to tell as many of those stories as I could. I also think that in doing so, you you you you tell the the the story of of of the of of the politics and you know, understand much more of of the of a place and and what is at stake. So that, yeah, that’s that’s why I would go to those to those places and and really try to spend time on, you know, the people impacted.

You also interacted with some of the more minor, but nonetheless significant characters in this story. One one who, I thought was particularly interesting is Igor Garkin, who I guess goes by the, Nom Deger, Strelkoff, who clearly a nefarious character, although a very interesting one now in jail, or at least, you know, secluded somewhere in, Moscow. Could you talk about about him.

Yeah. It’s only a shame that he’s not in a Dutch jail, where he was, tried and convicted, for for his role in downing the Malaysia Airlines Mh seventeen on July seventeenth of twenty fourteen. Right? I I first bumped into him in the city of slaviansk in Eastern Ukraine, not too far from Bakmoot shortly after he had taken over the city with a group of gunmen who were with him in Crimea in twenty four eighteen. So he helped with the takeover of Crimea before moving to Eastern Ukraine.

And then, taking over the the government buildings and security service building in Slaviance and running it like his own fiefdom, for Russia. Many of his guys spread out in nearby cities and overtook Constantina for Kremetorisk and essentially locked them all down, not really allowing, you know, many of the Ukrainian, police and security forces in, and and that’s really when the occupation began. And I think it was stroke off who’ve who’ve now infamous leader infamously said that, you know, he was the he was the person who fired the first shot of war, right, or or sparked. He’s the person who sparked the war. So that is his own personal claim to fame, but he he ruled Slaviance with an iron fist and put into place this this old Stalin era governing system and and these these old, wartime laws that saw people who shoplifted or stole articles of clothing, be forced to sit for a military tribunal and quickly convicted, obviously not receiving anything resembling a fair trial, and then be executed in the back of the building by firing squad.

Now when I when I met Strokhov, I I could tell right away that he was a bad guy. Certainly one of the most terrifying, terrifying people involved in in this whole Russian war that that I’ve ever met. I I had to get accreditation just like any other journalist who wanted to work there. So you have to go into the security service of Ukraine building that he was occupying and walk into his office and and ask for, his stamp and signature on a piece of paper that would allow you to move freely in theory around the city and do your reporting. And I remember when I approached him, you know, he looked at me up and down, obviously recognized immediately that even though I’m speaking Russian, I was a foreigner, asked where I’m from, when I told him that I was an American citizen because he asked which country I was from you know, he had some very choice words, that, I I can’t repeat on this podcast.

I’m sure. But, you know, he said that he would give me accreditation anyway, but if I fell out of line that he would shoot me himself. And I kept that in mind. I I moved around very cautiously. I did my reporting And a couple of months after that, he finally fled the city of Slaviance with his gunman and moved to Donetsk, the regional capital where Russia had set up its occupation center.

And, when he left, I remembered I remember his office and, my myself and two other colleagues went in there and dug around very carefully and found a stack of documents. That were especially interesting, considering that they had, all of his name all over them and they were from these military tribunals, and it it it proved that he was, holding holding these, you know, illegal illegal trials and sentencing people to firing squad, and we followed some several of the stories that were, in these documents tracked down the family members of several people who had been executed, and we told that story. And it was one of the first If not, the first, story about, well, with with with evidence of of Russian war crimes in Ukraine. Stroll off just because he is a fascinating character. You know, before he before he came to Ukraine, he he fought in Chechnya, he fought in, transnistria, the breakaway territory in Moldova.

He also, was a big fan of, war reenactments. And, quite the white army enthusiast. So, you know, he was playing war, while also participating in in real war. And he sort of strutted around with, you know, with with, the the the confidence of, maybe an old, an old general from, you know, a hundred years ago. Somebody you might see on, like, a a Hollywood film.

I was reading your book when he was arrested for his criticism of the Kremlin after the Progyny. And I must say I was deeply offended when the New York Times described his arrest as, describe him at the time of his arrest as a, Kremlin critic and dissident. You know, when in when in fact he is a war criminal, as you as you point out.

The interesting thing, though, and I I I I felt similarly frustrated by that and and, obviously, Ukrainians did. It became quite the issue, and, and, topic of conversation in Ukraine. It is true, though, that he is a Kremlin critic. And I think one of the interesting things is that he became so after he was withdrawn from Eastern Ukraine in August of twenty fourteen and and lived in Moscow, very, you know, kind of very quietly, but sometimes, popping up to criticize Russia’s military operations here. And then in a much bigger way after the full scale invasion in twenty twenty two, which is obviously what has him in hot water now?

We’re running low on time, but, there are a couple of other things I really do wanna to get to with you if we can. And maybe I’ll just lay lay them out and and you can talk to us and Elliot if you wanna chime in, please do. You’ve had a chance to observe president Zelensky upfront and personal. You’ve interviewed him some of the, interview material is in the book. I wonder how you assess him as a as a war leader.

Elliot I’ve speculated that, in fact, his acting background, you know, probably nothing suited him better for this role than that. But I’d be interested, obviously, in in your view. A second issue. I I would love you to touch on one of the more, both horrifying and comic scenes you describe in the book is, you’re spending a day with the, the so called Casaack Bomskad, which was, group that was, going out, being called by people to deal with unexploded, ordinance. And, you know, at that point in the book, it really reminds, I think, your readers of the ravages of these artillery duels that we’re seeing going on now and you know, the fact that Ukraine is already even before, you know, this war was already one of the most mind places on earth.

Now it is probably the most mind place on earth, and that’s long before you know, the United States supplied Ukraine with, so called to pick on the dual purpose and improved conventional ammunition, which is a a cluster ammunition. So I’d be interested in in your, a view of that, you know, particular episode. And then finally, you know, you’ve been writing about these artillery, duels, recently as we all are, you know, watching the Ukrainian counter offensive slowly unfold much slower I think than some people anticipated. And so, you know, I wonder if you have some thoughts about how does this conflict get, you know, resolved. How does this conflict end at some point?

And Elliot, please feel free to throw your two or three cents in here.

No. I think you, you’ve covered the waterfront. We don’t have much time left. So,

I’ll get right to it then. I’ll get right to it. I think, you know, Zelensky’s story is is one of the most intriguing of of of the last year and a half, I think. And, you know, the ways in which he’s transformed himself, and I think the country are are are are are big. You know, in a in a in a sense, to echo what you said, yeah, this might be the role of his life.

Right? And and certainly his background in in acting, in speaking, in in public, you know, public appearing in public, is has been beneficial. You know, at the same time, I I I’ve I’ve known him now for for quite a while. I I, you know, I I got to meet him and speak with him while he was, a comic actor before he had any aspirations, political aspirations. I met him during his campaign.

I have, been able to see him and interview him since he became president, including in the last year and a half. And, you know, this what what you see is not it’s not I I I really don’t believe it’s it’s acting. You know, I I think, I mean, I’ve known him to be very much the person you see on TV. Now he has political flaws and personal flaws, but I think one of the one of his, if not, the strongest you know, his his his strongest attribute is his ability to look right at you, to understand what you’re going through and and to be able to speak to you and to articulate, what he’s going to do, what he hopes for. And and that’s really been his his superpower in in in, this this past year and a half is being able to relate to a population whose homes have been destroyed, who’ve seen family members, be killed and wounded, you know, in in this really horrific and tragic moment, he has been able to really connect with people and to inspire them.

And I think the most important decision that he’s made throughout this entire, full scale invasion was was actually, a rather I mean, well, you could call it I was gonna I was actually going to make I was going to say it was a simple decision, but I guess if the second most powerful military in the world is is, storming toward you, it it’s maybe a a pretty big decision. But in any case, he decided to stay in Kiev. And and not and not run away. And, you know, Washington had had urged him, to maybe consider heading to Western Ukraine or even across the the border into Poland, to try to, you know, keep his government together and and to to keep him alive. And he said, I’m not I’m I’m not I’m not going to leave.

And he stood his ground and, went out and delivered what was probably his most famous and important speech he’s ever given. It lasted mere seconds. Right? It’s it’s it’s nothing like his several minutes long or fifteen minutes long, nightly addresses now. But in about forty some odd seconds, he told the country, I’m here.

My people are here. We’re standing up you, you know, we we want you to as well. We’re going to fight. Russia’s not going to win. And, you know, it really I I think inspired the nation and and rallied people, to to defend themselves.

And I think that was huge, huge reason why Kiev did not fall in days, or weeks. And, you know, after after several days, Kiev, and and Ukraine’s military finally got their act together and and put up a very strong defense and, you know, with the rest, we know the rest of the story. Right? Russia had to had to retreat and and and move back, across the border. So, yeah, he’s just an absolutely, fascinating stunning character.

I I’ll I’ll I’ll wrap on him by saying only that He does face a lot of really difficult questions, whenever this war, turns to a stalemate or is resolved, because a lot of Ukrainians want to know why he didn’t do a, what, in their mind, a better job of, preparing them for this full scale invasion. You’ll re you’ll remember that he said, repeatedly, to to Washington and Western allies, you know, stop stop fear mongering, stop saying that Russia is going to invade and that it’s inevitable. You’re, you know, you’re you’re destroying our economy. You’re scaring our people. You’re causing chaos and panic, and we don’t want panic here.

And so he said, you know, there’s this now infamous line that he said, Ukrainians will be fine. We’ll be barbecuing by, you know, we’ll be barbecuing in May. And, of course, the country was very much at war in May, and we had seen the atrocities that Russia had carried out in Bucha and in many other places. So you know, at some point, he will face some very, very difficult questions by, his Ukrainian population. Secondly, the cause like bomb squad.

You know, I I put that in there, because it was just one of the weirdest things that I had done, as a reporter. And, to me, a good example of one of those moments where I’m not quite sure I made the right decision to go along with this group. You know, I did not set out to be a war reporter. I was very happy writing about politics and sitting my butt in Kiev here where you can get great beer and food, you know, just like you can anywhere else. The revolution happened.

I learned how to report on that. You know, got my first gas mask and even wore a bicycle helmet, to to keep my head protected from, from from, cocktails and paving stones. But then by the time the war began, you know, I had I had to, invest in, a ballistic helmet and a bulletproof vest and, was very much learning as I as I went along how to behave in in wartime and cover a war. And, you know, I I I I operated, most most often, as I did as a peace corps volunteer. To get to know the country, I told myself, say yes to everything.

Don’t turn down any invitation because it could, you know, it could it could lead to, some kind of terrific story or experience. Well, you know, that got me into some pretty tricky situations come come more time. And this was one of those where I was invited by this group of Russian Kossacks who were, a demining group and going around to the destroyed city of Davaltzema after they had just, recapped or well, they they had captured it, from from the Ukrainians and not only, but, had also devastated Ukraine’s military and killed hundreds of them in a, in a retreat that they said they would not attack, but but did. And this, you know, this town was was important because it was a railway junction. They were they were moving around, taking all of these, these, this this rocket debris and an exploded ordinance back to a location where it was actually a Ukrainian bunker where soldiers had been where they were going to blow it up, and they invited me to come along so that I could see And I I got a glimpse into just how much artillery was being used, in in about a half a day, they gathered dozens and dozens of unexploded ordinance stuck in the ground, stuck in people’s homes, and they gathered it all in this truck that we drove around town, bouncing along on all these terrible roads, with some of it collapsing, you know, underneath my feet.

And, you know, one of the they were they were chain smoking around all of this ordinance, and I just I realized that this is probably a really bad idea. But it was one of those strange moments, you know, that happened in war, that I I thought I thought was interesting because it showed the weird sort of hodgepodge of of of fighters and people who were involved and who Russia was using. It gave me a sense of, you know, just how how how many shells were being fired. It gave me access to a town that was now under occupation and, you know, permission to go in there. So I got to to speak with people who I otherwise wouldn’t have access to.

And so it was a valuable trip in the end, and I’m glad that I I lived to to to write about it. Lastly, the counter offensive, and I guess sticking a little bit with the theme of artillery, you know, this counter offensive got underway just a little under two months ago, and and it didn’t get off to a very good start, to be honest. The Ukrainians and and and American officials as well have said that the Ukrainian forces, lost around twenty percent of all of the Western armor tanks, demining equipment, in Bradley infantry fighting vehicles that had been sent over for this counter offensive. And that’s that’s no small small number. And, you know, the the trouble that they’re having is they spent months and months the Ukrainians did, training for its counter offensive acquiring as much weaponry as possible, especially artillery shells and and and tanks and other heavy heavy armor.

But, you know, Every day they spent preparing, the Russians had to dig in and fortify their defenses. And so what we’re seeing are these really heavily defended Russian lines in the south of the country, especially, to anti tank trenches, miles and miles of Miles deep minefields, and the Ukrainians are having a heck of a time breaking through it even with all of this Western weaponry. And their complaint is A lot of this this assistance from the United States and other Western countries arrived too slowly. It kind of came in piecemeal. The training that was provided by the United States, by the Brits, by by other western nato nato countries, was good, but, it was It was only two weeks at a time.

Maybe three tops. So a lot of the soldiers participating in the counter offensive are very inexperienced. They sort of buckle under pressure. They the Ukrainians, used up a lot of their, very experienced brigades in the battle of Bakmoo. Which was this grinding war of attrition that saw, really experienced units like the ninety ninety third mechanized brigade.

Be be decimated. And and now they’re they’re reconstituting and not even, taking part right now in the counter offensive. So, you know, their their the counter offensive sputtered. There was a little break. The Ukrainian said, okay, we need to come up with a plan b.

Plan B was to revert back to using Soviet era tactics and, pounding the Russian positions with heavy artillery that includes these cluster munitions that the Americans have supplied them with. And I’ve heard, from some of the soldiers down there that those are helping quite a bit in keeping Russian soldiers from from popping up and and firing at their their tanks with anti tank weaponry and keeping them essentially suppressed while they’re able to move a little bit, closer to the Russian front lines meter by meter, tree line by tree line. And they’re having a little bit of success now. There’s a little bit of momentum on the Ukrainian side, but they still haven’t managed to to to break through, the Russian front and to even get down really, to where their most, heavily defended lines are. And that tells me that we’re in for a very long grueling tough fight.

We’re gonna see a lot more casualties, a lot of equipment losses in the in the weeks to come. And I think, you know, we shouldn’t expect, to see a sweeping counter offensive like we did in Harkiv last year or or even down in Tucson after the Ukrainian got going and managed to to recapture that city in the south. It’s going to be a long tough fight. I’m not sure exactly how and when it ends, but I do know that and the Ukrainians say, and and truly believe that if the West provides them with enough and quickly enough, then they’re going to have a much better opportunity to do it. That time isn’t on their side.

Time time favors Russia right now. It’s just got deeper resources. You know, they’re not going to have to convince themselves to to continue fighting. Right? They’ve already putting their factories on on war footings and producing more missiles and equipment.

You know, the Ukrainians are going to continue to have to plead their case to the West and and say, you know, we need more missiles. We need more rockets. Please give us give us f sixteens. And, so I I think Unfortunately, you know, this is something that’s that’s going to stick around for a while. I don’t think we’re going to see the end of this war.

But when we do, I I do think that It’s gonna be really difficult. I, you know, for for the Ukrainians and the Russians to sit down for negotiations. Somebody’s going to have to mediate at some point, but I think really one side or the other is going to have to, almost almost pound the other into submission. Before, before the other side is willing to to come to any kind of, of, of agreement. You know, the Ukrainians have have lost too much.

They’ve they, you know, they they don’t want to make compromises. They’ve they’ve compromised already They’ve they’ve lost cities, families, loved ones. You know, they don’t want to see a Ukraine that’s divided, and occupied by Russia.

Chris, you’ve been incredibly generous with, your time today. I know it’s late in the day in, in Keith. So thank you for, for joining us. Our guest has been, Christopher Miller, the author of the war came to us, life and death in Ukraine, and If you wanna get a real appreciation for as he was saying a few minutes ago, the human cost of this war, I can’t think of a better, source for you to consult.

Yeah. Chris, thank you, and I, don’t don’t go driving around with loose artillery rounds bouncing around in the back of your truck. It’s it’s really not a good idea.

I’ve learned my lesson. Thank you both very much. This is this is a good chat.

Once once is enough.

Yeah.

Elliott and I will be on a short, break next week. A little bit of a summer break. We’ll be back in two weeks with Isabel Kushner, the New York Times correspondent in Israel to talk about her book, and about what’s going on in Israel. But that’ll be it for this episode of shield Republic. Thank you for joining us.