Only 44% of the residents of Gaza voted for Hamas in 2006, they won the ballot on a plurality of the vote. Since then there have been no more elections and the residents of Gaza have existed in an open air prison. It's extremely doubtful Hamas has anything resembling the level of support you claim.
And found this. The Palestinians - across BOTH Gaza and the West Bank - show much greater support for Hamas than Fatah.
But sure...nothing like the level of support "I claim."
"If new presidential elections were held today and only two were nominated, Mahmoud Abbas and Ismail Haniyeh, only 46% would participate and from among those, Abbas would receive 36% and Haniyeh 52% of the votes"
Really? Sure...It's just 20,000 Hamas fighters out of 2.2 million people that are the baddies. The rest are just peace loving innocents.
I guess you also believe that the people that lived in the towns outside German concentration camps were completely innocent because they weren't actively killing people.
FFS.
Try reading...
"The bloody events of last weekend, including the massacre of over 250 revelers at a rave party, have been condemned by people around the world as a terrorist outrage. In Gaza, however, they are widely seen as a breach in the Israeli-built wall that has trapped residents for 16 years and condemned them to victimhood.
тАЬThe situation is very devastating, and we couldnтАЩt take it anymore,тАЭ says local journalist Hind Khoudary, describing deteriorating living conditions in Gaza. тАЬIt may not be aligned with international law, but, for the first time, Palestinians here in Gaza do not feel helpless.тАЭ"
A poll in Jan of 1940 (early polling days) found that 88% of American polled were against declaring war on the Axis Powers. Looking at that I think we sat out that war.
A poll--not that I trust polls-- states that 68% of Palestinians "support" Hamas. That is a majority but not particularly vast. I don't know when the poll was taken. I can understand, but not condone, why they would. The Israeli government treatment of Palestinians has been going on for a long time.
Had Israel not started bombing Gaza civilians and cutting off water, electricity, food, and such in response, one has to wonder whether that 68 % would have gone down, since I refuse to believe that just because you are Palestinian you cannot be appalled by the actions last weekend. As it is, the percentage is likely to go up. People have a way of digging in when such things happen. I applaud the Israelis who, despite the horrors, look to their leaders for some of the problem.
And yes, I would have been concerned for the truly innocent Germans during WWII. Not everyone there supported Hitler, as is obvious from the number of dissidents he killed or sent to camps, not to mention those who survived and condemned.
Pretty sure they didnтАЩt poll the children. Nor does that figure suggest how strong the support of any individual is. A hellava lot of people who generally supported the GOP despite things like the the Muslim Ban or withdrawing from the Iran agreement but who changed their mind after 1/6. People do have a line they wonтАЩt cross
So whee, some Palestinian celebrated an atrocity. Probably some Muslims celebrate 9/11. (Though not where trump said he saw them) Do we believe that every damn Muslim is thus a terrorist? .tRump preached that it did with his Musl8m ban--the first one.
There are supporters of Palestinians who are celebrating Hamas. They are just as wrong as the тАЬshock and aweтАЭ--or maybe more тАЬstarve and freezeтАЭ--response of Israel.
I actually would like to see a UN peacekeeping force deal with rooting out Hamas as they did in tamping down the extremists in the Balkans. But the UN is much weakened.
UNHCR and its leadership have massive responsibility for the current situation in both Gaza and the West Bank. Their demonization of Israel and support for the 'right of return' of millions of people who have never lived in Israel has been a huge incentive to Palestinian intransigence.
Because when you take the position that Israel is always wrong and that the Palestinians have a "right of return" - aka, overwhelm the Israelites, what is that saying exactly?
Answer: Israel shouldn't exist and the we, the UN, support that position.
Guess what the position of virtually every Arab state, and the Palestinians - and Hamas - has been? Israel needs to cease to exist and be "driven into the sea."
(The recent Abraham accords (along with the Camp David peace agreement) means that most of the Arab states DO recognize the right of Israel to exist. Israel was working on a peace agreement with Saudi Arabia, which it is widely believed that was the reason Iran gave Hamas the green light. )
Ah, I thought you were talking about the Israeli "right of return" that lets any Jew immigrate. My Israeli friend is very proud of that, though when I pressed him about where such an influx would LIVE he did balk at taking over Palestinian homes and territory.
I certainly agree that is the position of Hamas. As you point out the "drive into the sea" bit hasn't been the position of Arab STATES for a very long time, though I am sure there are extremists in each country who still go with that. Of course, there are extremists in Israel who want exactly the same thing to happen to the Palestinians. Judging what a COUNTRY officially thinks depends on whether the government supports the extremists. The recent protests in Israel suggest the government was leaning towards the extremists there.
A comparison would be the US government supporting the America is a Christian Nation bit of the evangelical nationalists. Our government is not doing that, though our supreme court in its decisions is eating away at the idea of separation of church and state. So far it is applying "religious liberty" as a defense to anti-discrimination laws mostly to the LGBTQ community but I have had discussions with godawful "victim Christians" who would extend this "right of discrimination" to Muslims, Jews, etc.
Extremism is anti-democratic in any society. It's a problem here, AND in Israel, and frankly in way too many countries that have been considered "the West."
I don't know that Hamas needed a "green light" from anyone, though Iran does seem to have its fingers in the whole thing, if only as supplier. But I agree that the timing suggests a motive to upset peace talks with Saudi Arabia or any other Arab nation.
Yeah, I just read it. The part that stood out was that it was a total surprise. Which means that the average citizen wasn't actually involved in the attack itself.
No! Really? You mean not every Japanese citizen was directly involved in the attack on Pearl Harbor too? Good grief.
So unless they were directly involved in the attacks, they are completely innocent? FFS...
I must have missed in the article where it said that the people in Gaza they interviewed were horrified by the wanton killing of civilians and where they said it was wrong.
Who's calling for a genocide? Not me. Not Israel...
Hint: It's the group of people who are calling for driving the Israeli's into the sea... "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" - Hamas Convenant
Charlie has called this IsraelтАЩs 911. We retaliated causing millions of death, 20 years of war(s), 2 trillion in cost and loss to the US of 7,074 troops killed in action and another 53,303 wounded. A further 1.8 million post-9/11 veterans have reported service-connected disabilities to the Department of Veterans Affairs. As Mark Antony (in Julius Caesar) said, тАЬRaging for revenge, with Ate by his side come hot from hell, shall in these confines with a Monarch's voice cry 'Havoc!' and let slip the dogs of war."
if it is your opinion that the arab response to israel from the start has been genocidal, i agree.
if it is your opinion that israel therefore has totally clean hands and has never conducted itself in ways in which its good faith could even be called into question, then not only do you and i disagree but so do a substantial number of israelis.
The bulwark likes us to keep it clean, so let me put it this way.
I grew up in a very pro-zionist milieu (my parents very nearly emigrated to Israel when they married in 1950), and I am deeply familiar with the rhetorical practices of people who do think Israel's hands are completely clean. Your comments are certainly within that radius.
Apparently you are not interested in dialogue nor in adhering to the bulwark's comment style, so forgive me if I say that you must have a reading comprehension problem and a projection problem so I see no point in continuing.
"тАЬNone of us believed the videos we saw on Saturday morning. Hamas fighters inside Israeli territory and fighting with all their might,тАЭ Maha, a 34-year-old woman from Gaza City said in a call with Haaretz. тАЬWho would have thought this would happen?тАЭ She called October 7 тАЬa historic day for the Palestinian people.тАЭ
Maha is not alone in defining the Hamas invasion of Israeli territory as a historic day. Most Palestinians from Gaza who spoke to Haaretz described the first hours as the beginning of the тАЬliberation of Palestine.тАЭ
тАЬWe were ecstatic. ItтАЩs like a dream that is hard to wake up from,тАЭ Maha adds. тАЬBut as the picture became clearer, and I saw that there were Israeli prisoners, I realized that we were in a nightmare, in hell.тАЭ
тАЬI didnтАЩt think for a moment that the attack was planned. But when we learned about the number of fatalities on the Israeli side, we understood that it was a planned operation, and then Hamas issued an official announcement about the тАШAl-Aqsa FloodтАЩ war,тАЭ said Maher, a 48-year-old resident of Gaza City. тАЬFor the Palestinians in Gaza the events and the abduction of Israelis were a big surprise,тАЭ he said."
Because the people of Palestine/Gaza SUPPORTS Hamas.
It's that simple. Maybe not every last one, but definitely a vast majority.
I'm sure you would have been very concerned about the "innocent" Germans during WW2.
Only 44% of the residents of Gaza voted for Hamas in 2006, they won the ballot on a plurality of the vote. Since then there have been no more elections and the residents of Gaza have existed in an open air prison. It's extremely doubtful Hamas has anything resembling the level of support you claim.
And found this. The Palestinians - across BOTH Gaza and the West Bank - show much greater support for Hamas than Fatah.
But sure...nothing like the level of support "I claim."
"If new presidential elections were held today and only two were nominated, Mahmoud Abbas and Ismail Haniyeh, only 46% would participate and from among those, Abbas would receive 36% and Haniyeh 52% of the votes"
https://pcpsr.org/en/node/938
Really? Sure...It's just 20,000 Hamas fighters out of 2.2 million people that are the baddies. The rest are just peace loving innocents.
I guess you also believe that the people that lived in the towns outside German concentration camps were completely innocent because they weren't actively killing people.
FFS.
Try reading...
"The bloody events of last weekend, including the massacre of over 250 revelers at a rave party, have been condemned by people around the world as a terrorist outrage. In Gaza, however, they are widely seen as a breach in the Israeli-built wall that has trapped residents for 16 years and condemned them to victimhood.
тАЬThe situation is very devastating, and we couldnтАЩt take it anymore,тАЭ says local journalist Hind Khoudary, describing deteriorating living conditions in Gaza. тАЬIt may not be aligned with international law, but, for the first time, Palestinians here in Gaza do not feel helpless.тАЭ"
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2023/1010/In-Gaza-a-different-view-of-the-Hamas-raid-on-Israel
A poll in Jan of 1940 (early polling days) found that 88% of American polled were against declaring war on the Axis Powers. Looking at that I think we sat out that war.
A poll--not that I trust polls-- states that 68% of Palestinians "support" Hamas. That is a majority but not particularly vast. I don't know when the poll was taken. I can understand, but not condone, why they would. The Israeli government treatment of Palestinians has been going on for a long time.
Had Israel not started bombing Gaza civilians and cutting off water, electricity, food, and such in response, one has to wonder whether that 68 % would have gone down, since I refuse to believe that just because you are Palestinian you cannot be appalled by the actions last weekend. As it is, the percentage is likely to go up. People have a way of digging in when such things happen. I applaud the Israelis who, despite the horrors, look to their leaders for some of the problem.
And yes, I would have been concerned for the truly innocent Germans during WWII. Not everyone there supported Hitler, as is obvious from the number of dissidents he killed or sent to camps, not to mention those who survived and condemned.
68% is a huge majority.
Try this. From over a year ago:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-celebrate-jerusalem-synagogue-massacre-with-fireworks-sweets/
Washington Post in December 2021 only 33% of Republicans believed that January 6th was an attempt by Trump to overthrow Democracy and retain power.
Pretty sure they didnтАЩt poll the children. Nor does that figure suggest how strong the support of any individual is. A hellava lot of people who generally supported the GOP despite things like the the Muslim Ban or withdrawing from the Iran agreement but who changed their mind after 1/6. People do have a line they wonтАЩt cross
So whee, some Palestinian celebrated an atrocity. Probably some Muslims celebrate 9/11. (Though not where trump said he saw them) Do we believe that every damn Muslim is thus a terrorist? .tRump preached that it did with his Musl8m ban--the first one.
There are supporters of Palestinians who are celebrating Hamas. They are just as wrong as the тАЬshock and aweтАЭ--or maybe more тАЬstarve and freezeтАЭ--response of Israel.
I actually would like to see a UN peacekeeping force deal with rooting out Hamas as they did in tamping down the extremists in the Balkans. But the UN is much weakened.
UNHCR and its leadership have massive responsibility for the current situation in both Gaza and the West Bank. Their demonization of Israel and support for the 'right of return' of millions of people who have never lived in Israel has been a huge incentive to Palestinian intransigence.
They've lived in Israel since its creation.
IтАЩm not very familiar with them. How can they both demonize Israel and support return of refugees to it?
Because when you take the position that Israel is always wrong and that the Palestinians have a "right of return" - aka, overwhelm the Israelites, what is that saying exactly?
Answer: Israel shouldn't exist and the we, the UN, support that position.
Guess what the position of virtually every Arab state, and the Palestinians - and Hamas - has been? Israel needs to cease to exist and be "driven into the sea."
(The recent Abraham accords (along with the Camp David peace agreement) means that most of the Arab states DO recognize the right of Israel to exist. Israel was working on a peace agreement with Saudi Arabia, which it is widely believed that was the reason Iran gave Hamas the green light. )
Ah, I thought you were talking about the Israeli "right of return" that lets any Jew immigrate. My Israeli friend is very proud of that, though when I pressed him about where such an influx would LIVE he did balk at taking over Palestinian homes and territory.
I certainly agree that is the position of Hamas. As you point out the "drive into the sea" bit hasn't been the position of Arab STATES for a very long time, though I am sure there are extremists in each country who still go with that. Of course, there are extremists in Israel who want exactly the same thing to happen to the Palestinians. Judging what a COUNTRY officially thinks depends on whether the government supports the extremists. The recent protests in Israel suggest the government was leaning towards the extremists there.
A comparison would be the US government supporting the America is a Christian Nation bit of the evangelical nationalists. Our government is not doing that, though our supreme court in its decisions is eating away at the idea of separation of church and state. So far it is applying "religious liberty" as a defense to anti-discrimination laws mostly to the LGBTQ community but I have had discussions with godawful "victim Christians" who would extend this "right of discrimination" to Muslims, Jews, etc.
Extremism is anti-democratic in any society. It's a problem here, AND in Israel, and frankly in way too many countries that have been considered "the West."
I don't know that Hamas needed a "green light" from anyone, though Iran does seem to have its fingers in the whole thing, if only as supplier. But I agree that the timing suggests a motive to upset peace talks with Saudi Arabia or any other Arab nation.
Try reading this about the "innocent people" of Gaza. Not too much concern about the women raped and the children killed. But yeah...
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-10/ty-article/.premium/at-first-we-were-ecstatic-gazans-respond-to-hamas-attack-calling-it-a-historic-day/0000018b-183f-df31-a99f-7dff4de70000?v=1696952685897
Yeah, I just read it. The part that stood out was that it was a total surprise. Which means that the average citizen wasn't actually involved in the attack itself.
No! Really? You mean not every Japanese citizen was directly involved in the attack on Pearl Harbor too? Good grief.
So unless they were directly involved in the attacks, they are completely innocent? FFS...
I must have missed in the article where it said that the people in Gaza they interviewed were horrified by the wanton killing of civilians and where they said it was wrong.
Uhhh, so you're pro-genocide?
Who's calling for a genocide? Not me. Not Israel...
Hint: It's the group of people who are calling for driving the Israeli's into the sea... "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" - Hamas Convenant
Charlie has called this IsraelтАЩs 911. We retaliated causing millions of death, 20 years of war(s), 2 trillion in cost and loss to the US of 7,074 troops killed in action and another 53,303 wounded. A further 1.8 million post-9/11 veterans have reported service-connected disabilities to the Department of Veterans Affairs. As Mark Antony (in Julius Caesar) said, тАЬRaging for revenge, with Ate by his side come hot from hell, shall in these confines with a Monarch's voice cry 'Havoc!' and let slip the dogs of war."
Thank you for the reminder. This will not end well for anyone.
"Young men die in old men's wars"
Requiem for a Soldier
https://youtu.be/9xMh_WOt5XU?si=o4GlGbeBxTfMDDuG
But when ye come, and all the flowers are dying,
If I am dead, as dead I well may be,
You'll come and find the place where I am lying,
And kneel and say an Ave there for me.
-Danny Boy
My dad's favorite song of all time, it never failed to bring him to tears. I love it too!
if it is your opinion that the arab response to israel from the start has been genocidal, i agree.
if it is your opinion that israel therefore has totally clean hands and has never conducted itself in ways in which its good faith could even be called into question, then not only do you and i disagree but so do a substantial number of israelis.
Where did I ever say anything like the second paragraph?
The bulwark likes us to keep it clean, so let me put it this way.
I grew up in a very pro-zionist milieu (my parents very nearly emigrated to Israel when they married in 1950), and I am deeply familiar with the rhetorical practices of people who do think Israel's hands are completely clean. Your comments are certainly within that radius.
So I asked, which is why I used the word "if."
So you created a narrative out of thin air about what you wanted me to say so you could claim some moral high ground?
Good to know.
Apparently you are not interested in dialogue nor in adhering to the bulwark's comment style, so forgive me if I say that you must have a reading comprehension problem and a projection problem so I see no point in continuing.
sorry, paywall
you can get in by entering an email address.
But, the first few paragraphs:
"тАЬNone of us believed the videos we saw on Saturday morning. Hamas fighters inside Israeli territory and fighting with all their might,тАЭ Maha, a 34-year-old woman from Gaza City said in a call with Haaretz. тАЬWho would have thought this would happen?тАЭ She called October 7 тАЬa historic day for the Palestinian people.тАЭ
Maha is not alone in defining the Hamas invasion of Israeli territory as a historic day. Most Palestinians from Gaza who spoke to Haaretz described the first hours as the beginning of the тАЬliberation of Palestine.тАЭ
тАЬWe were ecstatic. ItтАЩs like a dream that is hard to wake up from,тАЭ Maha adds. тАЬBut as the picture became clearer, and I saw that there were Israeli prisoners, I realized that we were in a nightmare, in hell.тАЭ
тАЬI didnтАЩt think for a moment that the attack was planned. But when we learned about the number of fatalities on the Israeli side, we understood that it was a planned operation, and then Hamas issued an official announcement about the тАШAl-Aqsa FloodтАЩ war,тАЭ said Maher, a 48-year-old resident of Gaza City. тАЬFor the Palestinians in Gaza the events and the abduction of Israelis were a big surprise,тАЭ he said."
I donтАЩt need any more email. If they just wanted to know who I was, ok. But signing in needs agreement to get emails