I am pretty sick of being painted with the broad brush of “the left.” Democrats hold the WH and the Senate and the vast majority of them haven’t been cheering on Hamas and are supportive of Israel and the people of Palestine. We understand that Hamas does not equal the Palestinian people. Words matter and journalists should know better.
I am pretty sick of being painted with the broad brush of “the left.” Democrats hold the WH and the Senate and the vast majority of them haven’t been cheering on Hamas and are supportive of Israel and the people of Palestine. We understand that Hamas does not equal the Palestinian people. Words matter and journalists should know better.
Then you can exclude yourself from that, but if you don't think that the left is resonant with antisemitism, I suggest you visit a college near you.
I've been a partisan Democrat my entire life, been active in party politics, and been a state central committee member. I'm just as much part of "the left" as anyone else.
And yet I have never supported the activist fetish for terrorists, like The Nation magazine et al., whether it was blaming America for 9/11 or blaming Israel for this. This is more of a betrayal, because the left has been 100% identity issues for the last 10 years. Somehow Jews don't count for all that.
Substack pushed into my feed today a restack by a (self-described) college professor who asserted Israel is committing "genocide," with a link to a Hamas terrorism-rationalizing screed from the U.K. In the restack the professor stated people should be able to accuse Israel of genocide without being accused of being antisemitic and challenged readers to respond to the assertions in the article. It took about three seconds of scrolling to find multiple comments under the linked article peddling literal neo-Nazi propaganda about "globalist bankers" starting all the wars and profiting off the deaths of "the people they call 'goyim.'"; and those comments had the most likes of any responses. So--a leftist professor complains about the unfairness of being labeled antisemitic, while linking to an article that's responded to approvingly by overt antisemites peddling neo-Nazi ideology. Anyone not seeing what is on our side (or what I thought was our side) is willfully blind. I would love it if it could be easily dismissed as fringe, but that seems extremely irresponsible.
Yes, Marlene, you're right. I'm a progressive left member. It's horrible to think about what Hamas has done. NOTHING justifies this level of barbaric actions. I think I'm capable of discerning this, and resent being grouped with the unfeeling ones who don't.
David Duke without the baggage is a ranking member of the house majority and was just a serious candidate for speaker (3rd in line, let's not forget).
I'd say some of their loudness comes from being amplified by those with pearls to clutch who aren't putting their numbers or clout into perspective for their readers...
It doesn't matter how or why it's amplified. Antisemitism on the left is supposedly based on anti colonialism. On the right, it's just straight up good old fashioned bankers and media conspiracy theories.
Just because someone might be getting amplified or whatever and just because there all also whataboutisms to point out with the Rs doesn't change what has happened to the left.
It's interesting. I think of myself as center-left, and I am currently having a tough time with a true-left family member who thinks Israel deserved this and that my (as Travis just put it) pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian/anti-Hamas position is anathema. To this person, there is no moral ambiguity in any of this, Israel is the persecutor of Palestine, and I am being obtuse at best, equivocating at best, in my position against suffering of all involved. This is real. I don't know how common it is, but it's right in my face.
For most of the last 7+ years I have lamented the strain of politics on my relationship with a MAGA-adjacent family member, and my far-left relative has been with me. Now I am facing a similar rift from the other side of the political spectrum (or maybe horseshoe).
I had a surprising text conversation yesterday with my own son who seems to be buying into the “Israel is doing genocide and apartheid “ argument. He said, “At this point, Ill vote for Trump if he stops the US support of Israel’s genocide.”. I am stunned. THAT is the way a person with the moral character of slime mold gets votes.
I'd have ask him what evidence he sees that Trump is calling for US support to Israel to be cut, and even if so, what evidence he would use to conclude that Trump could be trusted on that topic.
I pointed out to him that Trump is pissed at Netanyahu for saying good things about Biden, which he sees as a betrayal. He thinks TFG is Putin’s puppet, and Putin supports Palestine, so Trump would therefore pro-Palestine, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I pointed out Trump just likes strong men and envies their ability to do whatever they want; Putin also gave him the blasted emails. Quid pro quo. And he needs Jewish votes. He was just trying to get the spotlight back on himself and vent some spleen.
I don’t have the heart to re-initiate the conversation. At least he wasn’t cheering Hamas butchery. God this war is horrible.
I mean, I could see it if your were a Palestinian and you didn't much care what happened in the US. As an American, the idea of conceding that a candidate is the puppet of a foreign power and then voting for him....
Just had a short go around elsewhere on this idea that we have to "recall" how oppressed the Palestinians are. Nobody I know, except some of these outliers, has forgotten this. It is not pertinent right now, sorry. This is a terrorist attack, of tremendous magnitude, and it is continuing. The nonsense that there is ONE good answer is childish. Trying to protect everyone is impossible, even if the Israelis do NOTHING.
Also, the Arab world has refused for decades to accept any Palestinian refugees, or work towards a solution. It seems accepted analysis that the Arab world prefers this unsettled state of affairs that keeps Israel destabilized. They care nothing for the well-being their Palestinian brethren,
An unfortunate reminder that tribalism, motivated reasoning, rationalization, etc. are not confined to the right. They are very much human traits.
I wonder if you were to fully examine your left wing family member's anti-maga position if you would find the same reasoning and rationale you used to come to the same conclusion or something a bit more knee-jerk and tribal...
FarLeft sees MagaAdjacent as wrong on many things but also agrees with MagaAdjacent that Obama/Clinton/Biden/Pelosi are all terrible, only for different reasons. MagaAdjacent consumes the worst far-right stuff (Fox now and then, in between being mad at them for being insufficiently right-wing); The Spectator, Epoch Times, Washington Times, Ben Shapiro, etc), and thus spouts far-right social positions (lately anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-worker, climate change not something we should address [at least doesn't say it's a hoax]) that FarLeft and I can agree are anathema. FarLeft reads Jacobin, is young but post-college and extremely online, so there is probably some tribalism there related to the X/Twitterverse they are involved in.
I totally agree that motivated reasoning and tribalism are human traits, and I am sure my positions are also influenced by them. Although, like all humans, I also would like to think I am just a reasonable thinker, motivated only by The Truth!
Oh no! Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that my own college-aged kids haven't fallen for this nonsense yet. I know it's out there, though, and it's not just college students. My husband was complaining that the young people he works with are taking a mostly "Israel kind of deserved it" position. Publicly!
There's a good, meaningful article that could be written on why young people feel like this, but I don't have the heart to read long memoirs from people who are too much online. As soon as I see "keyboard warriors" in an article, I suspect strongly that no research was done and no real people were interviewed. But when I have more time, I'll look for a better article on this phenomenon.
Part of me wonders if the students are exhibiting classic rebellion against what they perceive is the establishment position. That’s the kindest frame I can apply.
Part rebellion, I think, but quite apart from the Hamas attack on Israel, Israel has not differentiated the people of Palestine from Hamas. There is valid criticism of the support for Israeli “settlers” who have taken land from Palestinians and established armed settlements on land that has belonged and been farmed by Palestinians families for generations. Palestinians have not been allowed to participate in normal ways of living. This sort of injustice has been funded and defended by Israel and international supporters including many American citizens. That in no way justifies the violent depravity of the Hamas attack. This is a complicated dynamic with plenty of blame all around. Babies are dying on both sides of the border. Now, nothing can stop the insanity until Israel feels safe from further attacks, whatever horrifying consequences that involves.
What happens then will determine what happens next. Can Israel find a way to help Palestinians restore their lives? Will Palestinians accept help from those who attacked? It will require the proverbial wisdom of Solomon, something that has been sorely lacking all round.
The problem is a horrific event doesn’t give license to any response or if it does than any horrific event can be framed as a response (which is exactly where we are now.)
My FarLeft person is not old enough to have watched 70 years of anything, although they insist they have studied the issue and it's all one-sided, that Israel is the colonizer and the Palestinians are victims, and what Hamas did pales in comparison to what Israel has done. And it's an entrenched "if you're not with me you're against me" argument, so that any recognition of mutual suffering (or implication that there are any innocent Israelis) is seen as morally wrong.
That’s fine. If the description of a far left Hamas apologist doesn’t apply to you, then it doesn’t apply to you. There is, however, a significant thread of Hamas support among the modern far left. The YouTube and TikTok generation is very vulnerable to warmed over Hamas propaganda and general anti-semitism that drifts westward.
There IS a place for sympathy for the Palestinian people and a desire for peace in this whole mess. However, Hamas itself has none -- they are interested only in power, and their power exists only through hate for Israel and the means to kill Jews. There can be no peace as long as Hamas controls one of the two Palestinian enclaves.
Yes, there is. That someone doesn't want to see it or acknowledge it doesn't mean it's not there. There were huge rallies all over the world, in major cities, in front of Israeli embassies and on college campuses the day after the massacre in support of Hamas. And there are more planned today.
There is, sickeningly, a huge base of support for Hamas--or at least people who refuse to condemn them--on the American left. And I am not a conservative. I am a Biden supporter who would never vote Republican.
It baffles me that anyone with a feminist bone in their body (the left?) could align with any culture that mistreats women as a matter of daily practice. But I’m not saying it’s not reality, that some on the left seem to be there.
No, there isn't, but the YouTube and TikTok generation are vulnerable to anti-Semitic propaganda. We need to be on our guard that this doesn't turn into the wacky fringe pushing for concessions. I don't see that happening, though. I'm actually changing my mind on this topic as I converse with people here, darn it. There is a case to be made for a well-researched article on this topic.
The “far left” that I’m thinking of pretty much IS the YouTube and TikTok generation, and their older compatriots. Most of my former tech co-workers who’ve since unfriended or blocked me over political discussions over social media have been of this sort. Social media itself is frankly a radicalizing thing in general, it’s way too easy to consolidate into a bubble that only sees what it wants to see, and the algorithms are happy to oblige for ad clicks.
Just because I think Israel should have stopped Israeli “settlers” from taking Palestinian lands doesn’t mean I support the Hamas gleeful slaughter. There has to be room for criticism of both the Israeli government and. Hamas. Some Israelis supported the settlement land grab. Some Palestinians support Hamas. There has to be a way to talk about it all or a way to peace will never be found.
why even add left? Maybe just call them pro-Hamas and leave it at that. Maybe if we got away from thinking of politics on a single dimension spectrum this coverage would fit the real world better and the silos/tribes would weaken a bit.
Because there has, for a very long time, been a powerful anti-Zionist strain in the activist movement wing of the left. This is so widespread that a Jewish member of that movement took the trouble to write a large pamphlet (many pages) about how to recognize and fight anti-Semitism within those movements. https://www.aprilrosenblum.com/thepast Currently you can see this anti-Zionist strain in one of the organized BLM organizations as well.
I don't expect this kind of snark on The Bulwark. Anyway, it does not have to be new to be legit. It is unusual and extremely difficult for a person *within* a liberal activist movement to write this kind of thing, and she would have gotten zero support since she's writing what they are not interested in hearing. In any case, Hanna Arendt's essay on totalitarianism is still relevant today and we ignore it at our peril. I also didn't realize the the paranoid style of American politics wasn't a thing since Richard Hofstadter wrote it more than 50 years ago. Antisemitism on the left has not gotten any better since then (especially as survivors of the Holocaust are more and more rare). Maybe you could read what she wrote and criticize it on the merits. Same stuff is going on. As the pamphlet says "The past didn't go anywhere".
Me neither. I posted a comment downthread asking why Hamas won't release the Israeli hostages it took during its massacre of more than 1,000 civilians, and some demented individual responded I deserve to have my house bombed. (And I'm a Biden supporter who would never support Trump). If that's not a Hamas-sympathizer, what is?
I not even sure I get why there are suddenly so many hit pieces on 'the left' at this moment after the MAGA right, which includes the majority of republicans, have been utterly silent in the face of rising white nationalism and anti-semitism in their ranks. FOR YEARS. We've had elected members of congress palling around with self-described Neo-Nazis; one of them was even invited to Mar-a-Lago. And the presumptive republican nominee for president was just tweeting out his admiration for Hezbollah.
There is a faction on the left who are so blinded by their pro-Palestinian views they've allowed it to spill over into a hatred for Israel so intense they can't even see the humanity of Jewish victims of Hamas. But they are just a small faction on the left. They don't represent all or even most Democrats, who want nothing to do with them any more than they have use for the MAGA right. And FTR, they have been loudly vigorously and repeatedly condemned by elected Democrats from the White House to the House to the Senate and beyond.
On hit pieces... I think about this too. I assume that a bunch of people who write for a living and also abhor participation trophies get excited when they can write and feel right about what they are saying, which feels much better than making excuses or wishcasting.
There were just Nazis protesting outside Disneyworld, waving DeSantis signs. No condemnation from him despite Florida's new "protestors have no rights" laws. Although it does seem like everyone is pointing out that DeSantis is not a pro-Israel candidate.
One of these days an old Jewish lady is going to drive her car into these pro DeSantis Nazis. Remember DeSantis signed a law that it is not illegal to accidentally hit a protester.
I read two pieces in The Atlantic criticizing the far left for supporting Hamas, and the tepid response from the left in general; they weren’t written by MAGAs. But maybe I misunderstood your post.
Tepid response from the left in general? Members of house Democratic caucus have condemned them, the White House press secretary has condemned them, the President, Vice President and Second Gentleman have all condemned them. Repeatedly. And there are plenty of people, like me, who are left of center who have and will continue condemning them. Tepid? How about the response from the elected Rs when Donald Trump hosted two known anti-semites - Kanye West and his Neo-Nazi pal.
My use of “tepid response”, was to re-create the experience of the author, in one of those Atlantic articles. It wasn’t my own opinion, but their narrated experience.
It seems pretty clear to me Charlie, et al, mean a small segment of the left.
E.g.
"what follows is not an indictment of “all leftists,” or of those who sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians. It is, instead, a description of the moral depravity of those who actually celebrated, downplayed, rationalized, or ignored the atrocities in front of them."
I can't even figure out how people had the time to write so many thinkpieces on how awful the left is. It's like the American press is more offended by stupid college students than by Hamas itself.
Thank you! I wrote a similar comment earlier this week and got immediately shot down for it. I bruise easily, so I deleted it. Glad I’m not alone in this observation.
However, there's a "good" angle on this phenom: it shows the left has antibodies.
A recurring theme in the Bulwark community is the asymmetry we currently see in politics. The right does something idiotic and it's "yawn, Trumpers gonna Trump". A (small) segment of the left does something idiotic and it's Big News. It's annoying, frustrating, etc. Totally get that.
I was thinking these bad Hamas takes were Defund The Police 2.0. Let the antibodies at 'em! It's good that folks like AOC are clarifying their position. It's good that folks are denouncing and leaving the DSA.
'Unsurprisingly, it took less than 48 hours for some of these students to realize that they might have said something stupid and reconsider their words. I suspect that weeks or months from now, more of these students might recognize that their initial rhetoric might have been… oh, let’s use the word “problematic.” And that is okay. Because college students are supposed to be this stupid. It is the only way they’ll learn.'
Much has been written about the DSA, so I decided to look up how much influence they have.
I counted (twice) zero members of congress.
I checked on the various caucuses in congress and found zero hits for the word 'socialist' (Did you know there was a Bourbon Caucus? Somehow only two members!)
I looked at the last presidential election and didn't find them. In fact, of all minor parties below the top 4, there were only 650K (0.41%) total votes in 2020, and that's for all of the parties below that top 4.
So I have to wonder about the continued focus on the DSA.
To me the headline is more: "Wackadoos boldly proclaim positions that statistically zero people support."
Old and tired: blaming the whole democratic party for the "Defund the Police" slogan rather than a handful of hard left nobodies being pumped up online by social media algorithms
New hotness: blaming the whole democratic party for the minimizing of Hamas' heinousness rather than a handful of hard left nobodies being pumped up online by social media algorithms
I think of my Congresswoman, Mikie Sherrill - former military, accomplished, reasonable. If Dems are the left - then the left does not act as charged. If not the left then the left is powerless. The Congressman one district north of mine if Josh Gottheimer - a conservative Dem. Yet the lazy press continues to tar Dems as if.
Took the words out of my mouth. And to add to it, we have TFF*G, a candidate for the presidency, advocating in so many words, killing generals, immigrants, political enemies even of his "party", overturning the Constitution, loving people like Putin, and his millions of followers loving his words, and it's barely a footnote in the news.
Charlie, come on, newsletter piece number two and three are about these terrible, horrible people's response. Not institutional Dems or the institutional left, but a vile subset of ignorant people. And in this morning's newsletter, the utter nonsense the FUTURE NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT is NUMBER FOUR?
Even though I don't drink, I kind of want to hang out with the Bourbon Caucus. They seem most likely to have their fingers on the pulse of average Americans.
1.) 30% of Harvard's admissions are preferred legacy students. Harvard has 23K students. That's thousands of kids born on second or third who may never have had to deal with adversity. What part of the process of getting to Harvard for them would you point to as generating better morals?
Yes, good point. But are we extrapolating all students from the actions of a few?
It's part of a bigger conversation about the morals coming out of our top universities. "Greed is good" was the main lesson when I went to college, and I'm glad the world has expanded, but it still seems like we can't look to our institutes of higher learning for clarity on this or really any issue of the day.
I just saw a video at UCLA with hundreds of protesters calling for a new intefada and chanting from the river to the sea. I didn't see any counter protest so it may not be all or even a majority, but it was more than a few.
I am pretty sick of being painted with the broad brush of “the left.” Democrats hold the WH and the Senate and the vast majority of them haven’t been cheering on Hamas and are supportive of Israel and the people of Palestine. We understand that Hamas does not equal the Palestinian people. Words matter and journalists should know better.
Then you can exclude yourself from that, but if you don't think that the left is resonant with antisemitism, I suggest you visit a college near you.
I've been a partisan Democrat my entire life, been active in party politics, and been a state central committee member. I'm just as much part of "the left" as anyone else.
And yet I have never supported the activist fetish for terrorists, like The Nation magazine et al., whether it was blaming America for 9/11 or blaming Israel for this. This is more of a betrayal, because the left has been 100% identity issues for the last 10 years. Somehow Jews don't count for all that.
Substack pushed into my feed today a restack by a (self-described) college professor who asserted Israel is committing "genocide," with a link to a Hamas terrorism-rationalizing screed from the U.K. In the restack the professor stated people should be able to accuse Israel of genocide without being accused of being antisemitic and challenged readers to respond to the assertions in the article. It took about three seconds of scrolling to find multiple comments under the linked article peddling literal neo-Nazi propaganda about "globalist bankers" starting all the wars and profiting off the deaths of "the people they call 'goyim.'"; and those comments had the most likes of any responses. So--a leftist professor complains about the unfairness of being labeled antisemitic, while linking to an article that's responded to approvingly by overt antisemites peddling neo-Nazi ideology. Anyone not seeing what is on our side (or what I thought was our side) is willfully blind. I would love it if it could be easily dismissed as fringe, but that seems extremely irresponsible.
Yes, Marlene, you're right. I'm a progressive left member. It's horrible to think about what Hamas has done. NOTHING justifies this level of barbaric actions. I think I'm capable of discerning this, and resent being grouped with the unfeeling ones who don't.
Jane in NC: Amen.
GOP has always painted a broad brush on "the left". Some of them work at the Bulwark. It's hard to break bad habits or to go off brand.
I was thinking this was my comment of the day, but Colleen had a zinger addition.
It's more like a spray gun than a broad brush.
Might be small but they are very, very loud and very, very online.
David Duke without the baggage is a ranking member of the house majority and was just a serious candidate for speaker (3rd in line, let's not forget).
I'd say some of their loudness comes from being amplified by those with pearls to clutch who aren't putting their numbers or clout into perspective for their readers...
It doesn't matter how or why it's amplified. Antisemitism on the left is supposedly based on anti colonialism. On the right, it's just straight up good old fashioned bankers and media conspiracy theories.
Just because someone might be getting amplified or whatever and just because there all also whataboutisms to point out with the Rs doesn't change what has happened to the left.
Oh my, right-wing media is having some moments.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/hannity-loses-it-at-ramaswamy-over-his-comments-on-israel
https://www.mediaite.com/news/ben-shapiro-condemns-tucker-carlson-for-downplaying-attack-on-israel-its-idiocy-its-just-moral-stupidity/
Thanks for the links.
Thanks for the links, Kate. I have forgotten all about our right wing media, due to shock I guess.
The Shapiro thingy even got Redstate worked up!
Redstate is my go-to to find out what the latest right-wing outrage is.
It's interesting. I think of myself as center-left, and I am currently having a tough time with a true-left family member who thinks Israel deserved this and that my (as Travis just put it) pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian/anti-Hamas position is anathema. To this person, there is no moral ambiguity in any of this, Israel is the persecutor of Palestine, and I am being obtuse at best, equivocating at best, in my position against suffering of all involved. This is real. I don't know how common it is, but it's right in my face.
For most of the last 7+ years I have lamented the strain of politics on my relationship with a MAGA-adjacent family member, and my far-left relative has been with me. Now I am facing a similar rift from the other side of the political spectrum (or maybe horseshoe).
I had a surprising text conversation yesterday with my own son who seems to be buying into the “Israel is doing genocide and apartheid “ argument. He said, “At this point, Ill vote for Trump if he stops the US support of Israel’s genocide.”. I am stunned. THAT is the way a person with the moral character of slime mold gets votes.
I'd have ask him what evidence he sees that Trump is calling for US support to Israel to be cut, and even if so, what evidence he would use to conclude that Trump could be trusted on that topic.
I pointed out to him that Trump is pissed at Netanyahu for saying good things about Biden, which he sees as a betrayal. He thinks TFG is Putin’s puppet, and Putin supports Palestine, so Trump would therefore pro-Palestine, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I pointed out Trump just likes strong men and envies their ability to do whatever they want; Putin also gave him the blasted emails. Quid pro quo. And he needs Jewish votes. He was just trying to get the spotlight back on himself and vent some spleen.
I don’t have the heart to re-initiate the conversation. At least he wasn’t cheering Hamas butchery. God this war is horrible.
OMG I hadn't considered that my FarLeft might follow this particular line of argument! It's possible.
Sounds penny wise and pound foolish.
I mean, I could see it if your were a Palestinian and you didn't much care what happened in the US. As an American, the idea of conceding that a candidate is the puppet of a foreign power and then voting for him....
I didn’t see that coming, either.
You have my sympathy, we’re all prepared for those alt right Uncle talks, but the alt left kids talks? Painful.
Just had a short go around elsewhere on this idea that we have to "recall" how oppressed the Palestinians are. Nobody I know, except some of these outliers, has forgotten this. It is not pertinent right now, sorry. This is a terrorist attack, of tremendous magnitude, and it is continuing. The nonsense that there is ONE good answer is childish. Trying to protect everyone is impossible, even if the Israelis do NOTHING.
Also, the Arab world has refused for decades to accept any Palestinian refugees, or work towards a solution. It seems accepted analysis that the Arab world prefers this unsettled state of affairs that keeps Israel destabilized. They care nothing for the well-being their Palestinian brethren,
An unfortunate reminder that tribalism, motivated reasoning, rationalization, etc. are not confined to the right. They are very much human traits.
I wonder if you were to fully examine your left wing family member's anti-maga position if you would find the same reasoning and rationale you used to come to the same conclusion or something a bit more knee-jerk and tribal...
FarLeft sees MagaAdjacent as wrong on many things but also agrees with MagaAdjacent that Obama/Clinton/Biden/Pelosi are all terrible, only for different reasons. MagaAdjacent consumes the worst far-right stuff (Fox now and then, in between being mad at them for being insufficiently right-wing); The Spectator, Epoch Times, Washington Times, Ben Shapiro, etc), and thus spouts far-right social positions (lately anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-worker, climate change not something we should address [at least doesn't say it's a hoax]) that FarLeft and I can agree are anathema. FarLeft reads Jacobin, is young but post-college and extremely online, so there is probably some tribalism there related to the X/Twitterverse they are involved in.
I totally agree that motivated reasoning and tribalism are human traits, and I am sure my positions are also influenced by them. Although, like all humans, I also would like to think I am just a reasonable thinker, motivated only by The Truth!
"I also would like to think I am just a reasonable thinker, motivated only by The Truth!"
You, me, and about 6-7 of our fellow bulwarkers (when they agree with me).
When they agree with me!
That’s a small tribe.
We make up for our small numbers by always being right.
Oh no! Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that my own college-aged kids haven't fallen for this nonsense yet. I know it's out there, though, and it's not just college students. My husband was complaining that the young people he works with are taking a mostly "Israel kind of deserved it" position. Publicly!
There's a good, meaningful article that could be written on why young people feel like this, but I don't have the heart to read long memoirs from people who are too much online. As soon as I see "keyboard warriors" in an article, I suspect strongly that no research was done and no real people were interviewed. But when I have more time, I'll look for a better article on this phenomenon.
Part of me wonders if the students are exhibiting classic rebellion against what they perceive is the establishment position. That’s the kindest frame I can apply.
Part rebellion, I think, but quite apart from the Hamas attack on Israel, Israel has not differentiated the people of Palestine from Hamas. There is valid criticism of the support for Israeli “settlers” who have taken land from Palestinians and established armed settlements on land that has belonged and been farmed by Palestinians families for generations. Palestinians have not been allowed to participate in normal ways of living. This sort of injustice has been funded and defended by Israel and international supporters including many American citizens. That in no way justifies the violent depravity of the Hamas attack. This is a complicated dynamic with plenty of blame all around. Babies are dying on both sides of the border. Now, nothing can stop the insanity until Israel feels safe from further attacks, whatever horrifying consequences that involves.
What happens then will determine what happens next. Can Israel find a way to help Palestinians restore their lives? Will Palestinians accept help from those who attacked? It will require the proverbial wisdom of Solomon, something that has been sorely lacking all round.
Yep. Seen this in a few friends this week and as someone who has several Jewish family members it’s pretty heartbreaking.
The problem is a horrific event doesn’t give license to any response or if it does than any horrific event can be framed as a response (which is exactly where we are now.)
My FarLeft person is not old enough to have watched 70 years of anything, although they insist they have studied the issue and it's all one-sided, that Israel is the colonizer and the Palestinians are victims, and what Hamas did pales in comparison to what Israel has done. And it's an entrenched "if you're not with me you're against me" argument, so that any recognition of mutual suffering (or implication that there are any innocent Israelis) is seen as morally wrong.
That’s fine. If the description of a far left Hamas apologist doesn’t apply to you, then it doesn’t apply to you. There is, however, a significant thread of Hamas support among the modern far left. The YouTube and TikTok generation is very vulnerable to warmed over Hamas propaganda and general anti-semitism that drifts westward.
There IS a place for sympathy for the Palestinian people and a desire for peace in this whole mess. However, Hamas itself has none -- they are interested only in power, and their power exists only through hate for Israel and the means to kill Jews. There can be no peace as long as Hamas controls one of the two Palestinian enclaves.
"There is, however, a significant thread of Hamas support among the modern far left"
No, there isn't.
Significant enough for us to be talking about it.
Yes, there is. That someone doesn't want to see it or acknowledge it doesn't mean it's not there. There were huge rallies all over the world, in major cities, in front of Israeli embassies and on college campuses the day after the massacre in support of Hamas. And there are more planned today.
There is, sickeningly, a huge base of support for Hamas--or at least people who refuse to condemn them--on the American left. And I am not a conservative. I am a Biden supporter who would never vote Republican.
It baffles me that anyone with a feminist bone in their body (the left?) could align with any culture that mistreats women as a matter of daily practice. But I’m not saying it’s not reality, that some on the left seem to be there.
A sense of oppression causes a sense of kinship (real or imagined.)
Instagram too. It’s full of anti semitic comments and reels.
Many inserted by Hamas' cyber troops.
No, there isn't, but the YouTube and TikTok generation are vulnerable to anti-Semitic propaganda. We need to be on our guard that this doesn't turn into the wacky fringe pushing for concessions. I don't see that happening, though. I'm actually changing my mind on this topic as I converse with people here, darn it. There is a case to be made for a well-researched article on this topic.
The “far left” that I’m thinking of pretty much IS the YouTube and TikTok generation, and their older compatriots. Most of my former tech co-workers who’ve since unfriended or blocked me over political discussions over social media have been of this sort. Social media itself is frankly a radicalizing thing in general, it’s way too easy to consolidate into a bubble that only sees what it wants to see, and the algorithms are happy to oblige for ad clicks.
Just because I think Israel should have stopped Israeli “settlers” from taking Palestinian lands doesn’t mean I support the Hamas gleeful slaughter. There has to be room for criticism of both the Israeli government and. Hamas. Some Israelis supported the settlement land grab. Some Palestinians support Hamas. There has to be a way to talk about it all or a way to peace will never be found.
You just said it though... FAR left. That isn’t a hard modifier to include.
why even add left? Maybe just call them pro-Hamas and leave it at that. Maybe if we got away from thinking of politics on a single dimension spectrum this coverage would fit the real world better and the silos/tribes would weaken a bit.
Exactly, like all the complexities of the world fit along a horizon line that goes from left to right.
Because there has, for a very long time, been a powerful anti-Zionist strain in the activist movement wing of the left. This is so widespread that a Jewish member of that movement took the trouble to write a large pamphlet (many pages) about how to recognize and fight anti-Semitism within those movements. https://www.aprilrosenblum.com/thepast Currently you can see this anti-Zionist strain in one of the organized BLM organizations as well.
If someone did a pamphlet 16 years ago I’m a believer.
I don't expect this kind of snark on The Bulwark. Anyway, it does not have to be new to be legit. It is unusual and extremely difficult for a person *within* a liberal activist movement to write this kind of thing, and she would have gotten zero support since she's writing what they are not interested in hearing. In any case, Hanna Arendt's essay on totalitarianism is still relevant today and we ignore it at our peril. I also didn't realize the the paranoid style of American politics wasn't a thing since Richard Hofstadter wrote it more than 50 years ago. Antisemitism on the left has not gotten any better since then (especially as survivors of the Holocaust are more and more rare). Maybe you could read what she wrote and criticize it on the merits. Same stuff is going on. As the pamphlet says "The past didn't go anywhere".
Me neither. I posted a comment downthread asking why Hamas won't release the Israeli hostages it took during its massacre of more than 1,000 civilians, and some demented individual responded I deserve to have my house bombed. (And I'm a Biden supporter who would never support Trump). If that's not a Hamas-sympathizer, what is?
You seen the prices of digital ink these days!?! Thanks, Carter!
I not even sure I get why there are suddenly so many hit pieces on 'the left' at this moment after the MAGA right, which includes the majority of republicans, have been utterly silent in the face of rising white nationalism and anti-semitism in their ranks. FOR YEARS. We've had elected members of congress palling around with self-described Neo-Nazis; one of them was even invited to Mar-a-Lago. And the presumptive republican nominee for president was just tweeting out his admiration for Hezbollah.
There is a faction on the left who are so blinded by their pro-Palestinian views they've allowed it to spill over into a hatred for Israel so intense they can't even see the humanity of Jewish victims of Hamas. But they are just a small faction on the left. They don't represent all or even most Democrats, who want nothing to do with them any more than they have use for the MAGA right. And FTR, they have been loudly vigorously and repeatedly condemned by elected Democrats from the White House to the House to the Senate and beyond.
On hit pieces... I think about this too. I assume that a bunch of people who write for a living and also abhor participation trophies get excited when they can write and feel right about what they are saying, which feels much better than making excuses or wishcasting.
There were just Nazis protesting outside Disneyworld, waving DeSantis signs. No condemnation from him despite Florida's new "protestors have no rights" laws. Although it does seem like everyone is pointing out that DeSantis is not a pro-Israel candidate.
There ya go. The double standard for conduct is outrageous.
But DeSantis is finding a sliver of a spine and opposing (yeah, right) TFF*G who decided he doesn't like Bibi any more. We're in Bizarro world.
One of these days an old Jewish lady is going to drive her car into these pro DeSantis Nazis. Remember DeSantis signed a law that it is not illegal to accidentally hit a protester.
I read two pieces in The Atlantic criticizing the far left for supporting Hamas, and the tepid response from the left in general; they weren’t written by MAGAs. But maybe I misunderstood your post.
Tepid response from the left in general? Members of house Democratic caucus have condemned them, the White House press secretary has condemned them, the President, Vice President and Second Gentleman have all condemned them. Repeatedly. And there are plenty of people, like me, who are left of center who have and will continue condemning them. Tepid? How about the response from the elected Rs when Donald Trump hosted two known anti-semites - Kanye West and his Neo-Nazi pal.
My use of “tepid response”, was to re-create the experience of the author, in one of those Atlantic articles. It wasn’t my own opinion, but their narrated experience.
My apologies for misunderstanding.
You make good points though. Sorry I was so terse. I sense we are all on tenterhooks, since last weekend, myself for sure. Be well, Jane.
No worries, GG. You're right: we're all on edge these days. Makes it easy to misunderstand. Take care of yourself, too.
Over the last few days, I've read "left" as the farther left, not just the left side of the aisle.
I’m glad you have read it that way, but that isn’t what Charlie Sykes and others are saying. If they mean the far left, they should say so
It seems pretty clear to me Charlie, et al, mean a small segment of the left.
E.g.
"what follows is not an indictment of “all leftists,” or of those who sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians. It is, instead, a description of the moral depravity of those who actually celebrated, downplayed, rationalized, or ignored the atrocities in front of them."
True but real qualifiers come in how much space you give an issue.
A small segment deserves small attention.
All I know is Charlie praised Biden's speech in the same newsletter as he criticized the Left, so... .
I can't even figure out how people had the time to write so many thinkpieces on how awful the left is. It's like the American press is more offended by stupid college students than by Hamas itself.
Thank you! I wrote a similar comment earlier this week and got immediately shot down for it. I bruise easily, so I deleted it. Glad I’m not alone in this observation.
However, there's a "good" angle on this phenom: it shows the left has antibodies.
A recurring theme in the Bulwark community is the asymmetry we currently see in politics. The right does something idiotic and it's "yawn, Trumpers gonna Trump". A (small) segment of the left does something idiotic and it's Big News. It's annoying, frustrating, etc. Totally get that.
I was thinking these bad Hamas takes were Defund The Police 2.0. Let the antibodies at 'em! It's good that folks like AOC are clarifying their position. It's good that folks are denouncing and leaving the DSA.
This is how we avoid ending up like the GOP.
Very good essay in Drezner's World the other day... "A Brief Note Regarding the Public Musings of College Students: For the love of God, stop paying attention." https://danieldrezner.substack.com/p/a-brief-note-regarding-the-public
'Unsurprisingly, it took less than 48 hours for some of these students to realize that they might have said something stupid and reconsider their words. I suspect that weeks or months from now, more of these students might recognize that their initial rhetoric might have been… oh, let’s use the word “problematic.” And that is okay. Because college students are supposed to be this stupid. It is the only way they’ll learn.'
Much has been written about the DSA, so I decided to look up how much influence they have.
I counted (twice) zero members of congress.
I checked on the various caucuses in congress and found zero hits for the word 'socialist' (Did you know there was a Bourbon Caucus? Somehow only two members!)
I looked at the last presidential election and didn't find them. In fact, of all minor parties below the top 4, there were only 650K (0.41%) total votes in 2020, and that's for all of the parties below that top 4.
So I have to wonder about the continued focus on the DSA.
To me the headline is more: "Wackadoos boldly proclaim positions that statistically zero people support."
Old and tired: blaming the whole democratic party for the "Defund the Police" slogan rather than a handful of hard left nobodies being pumped up online by social media algorithms
New hotness: blaming the whole democratic party for the minimizing of Hamas' heinousness rather than a handful of hard left nobodies being pumped up online by social media algorithms
Succinct analysis.
And "Abolish ICE"
I think of my Congresswoman, Mikie Sherrill - former military, accomplished, reasonable. If Dems are the left - then the left does not act as charged. If not the left then the left is powerless. The Congressman one district north of mine if Josh Gottheimer - a conservative Dem. Yet the lazy press continues to tar Dems as if.
Took the words out of my mouth. And to add to it, we have TFF*G, a candidate for the presidency, advocating in so many words, killing generals, immigrants, political enemies even of his "party", overturning the Constitution, loving people like Putin, and his millions of followers loving his words, and it's barely a footnote in the news.
Charlie, come on, newsletter piece number two and three are about these terrible, horrible people's response. Not institutional Dems or the institutional left, but a vile subset of ignorant people. And in this morning's newsletter, the utter nonsense the FUTURE NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT is NUMBER FOUR?
Even though I don't drink, I kind of want to hang out with the Bourbon Caucus. They seem most likely to have their fingers on the pulse of average Americans.
I might prefer the Cannabis Caucus, if it existed. Pretty chill.
I drink but I don't like bourbon. I'd still join you.
Thanks for the correction. I missed it because they aren't a political party (apparently).
AOC has denounced the DSP and their position on Hamas.
I think they're a political organization and a caucus within the Democratic Party.
Great question. How is it that stupid college students have become the more offensive issue than what Hamas actually did?
Stupid college students generate more clicks. They are the (media) gift that keeps on giving.
If it weren't for dumbasses on the left stepping on rakes, what would Conservative Inc. do all day?
It's not like there's anything positive to say about the GOP/right at the moment. No constructive proposals for...anything.
Why?
1.) 30% of Harvard's admissions are preferred legacy students. Harvard has 23K students. That's thousands of kids born on second or third who may never have had to deal with adversity. What part of the process of getting to Harvard for them would you point to as generating better morals?
2.) Ted Cruz.
Yes, good point. But are we extrapolating all students from the actions of a few?
It's part of a bigger conversation about the morals coming out of our top universities. "Greed is good" was the main lesson when I went to college, and I'm glad the world has expanded, but it still seems like we can't look to our institutes of higher learning for clarity on this or really any issue of the day.
That sounds a lot like what my parents said about my generation... but we were into peace, love and groovy, not baby-killing terrorists.
I just saw a video at UCLA with hundreds of protesters calling for a new intefada and chanting from the river to the sea. I didn't see any counter protest so it may not be all or even a majority, but it was more than a few.
If this is the yardstick, one can always find a few fools to broad brush a whole community, no matter what.
What official actions and policies have they got the Left to adopt?
Lit’s a big country!