It only works because his intended audience has zero critical thinking skills. And it will never cease to amaze that that someone as wealthy as Bannon has no gratitude for living in a country that's allowed him to do as well as he has.
I think “flooding the zone” also works because it is overwhelming our federal law enforcement capabilities. Trump is only now getting called on the carpet for transgressions going back decades. Not much of it is new, but rather the resources are now focused on him. So much grift, so few investigators. Probably applies to many GOP sugar daddies.
I'm guessing that in any other administration, Bannon would not have gotten a security clearance like he did with Trump. The fact that he's still a free man and allowed to do what he's doing stuns me.
I have said this before and will say it again: the MAGA folks--the Steve Bannon, Trump, etc. cadre--are doing work that the Chinese and Russians have long wanted: Destroy the norms of a democratic society and undermine confidence in every democratic institution.
In my opinion, there is a bright through line from Trump asking for emails to this absurd hearing: DNC hack > Pizzagate > QAnon > "the Steal" > "the Biden Crime Family."
The stakes for Putin now are far higher than in 2016.
And yet Bannon walks free. The wheels of Justice are definitely grinding slowly for that one. He might succumb to his cooties before he meets Lady Justice.
I wonder if all of the base really knows the consequences of their Representatives’ actions. In the moment chaos may sound great until people don’t receive paychecks, child assistance is stopped, workers are furloughed or forced to work for delayed pay (unlike members of Congress). Do they all know what the economic consequences could be globally?
No. It would take repeated shut downs over years to get that point across. Back when the California budget could only get passed by a 2/3 vote of the legislature, shut downs or furloughs of workers would start in July and continue sometimes for two months. It affects more than just those who worked for the state government directly. Vendors that did business with the state didn't get paid...one governor tried paying with "vouchers" that weren't actually money, but that was a gesture really, nothing that actually helped them. After several years of this, the voters passed a Constitutional amendment to end that supermajority requirement.
The base will be hurt, and maybe surprised, as they blame Biden. Their representatives will have achieved their chaos goal without a scratch. Maybe next election will have consequences, but unlikely.
Maybe. But even Fox is getting annoyed with the extreme right. They know it isn’t a good look. And some of their hosts are rolling their eyes at the Biden impeachment failure.
Yes, I think the subtle shift in the wind at Fox is part of my own shift in optimism, which actually entered my awareness just yesterday. I’ve been trying to dissect it for authenticity. And I even stated it publicly here, in a very bold move!
This is the third or fourth shutdown since the 90s. The most recent was only 4+ years ago. Some people may be able to argue ignorance, but at this point it's just apathy and malice
They seem a bit confused; every single Director of the FBI has been a Republican. Every single one. And yet the GOP is picking a fight with them as an enemy. I guess they thought their own FBI guys would follow the unofficial playbook and ignore the rule of law for their own kind.
Yep. They are Trump's devotees. There are hangers-on to the Republican label, but they have no principles in common that are not abandoned in a heartbeat for His Majesty, Trump.
That's exactly the problem. Not all of them realize that "law and order" was taken as heartfelt by a lot of their fellow travelers. They long for the good ol' days when the feds would monitor MLK Jr.
The more violence that is threatened and meted out to federal law enforcement, the clearer it will become that the real domestic terror threat is MAGA.
Of course you are right. But not all those who would be affected this time were affected last time. We were also not in the middle of supporting a war. And we did not get a credit downgrade as a result. This Congress will be responsible for two downgrades. That is serious and unprecedented.
I stand corrected. We were in Afghanistan last time. That was Biden’s big mistake in my book. I don’t think we should have withdrawn all personnel. And we should never have done it the way we did.
He didn’t have a lot of choice. Trump made the agreement and the timeline. Ive also heard it suggested that the intel assessment was completely imaginary
I think the military is going to be royally pissed off. Not only will they have no pay I’m sure a lot of them have also heard Trump’s statements about people killed in war being losers, or that McCain, a real hero, was a jerk. And down the line Trump’s remarks about General Milley--someone known widely by the rank and file--should be “hung” (not standard English: a painting is hung, a person is hanged). And what does Trump think would have happened to Europe or even the US without those people in uniform being willing to lay down their lives. Of course he knows no history or geography.
I agree. And I welcome them to their own tipping point; better late than never. I mean, Trumps egregious disrespect of the military is very old news, starting with imaginary bone spurs that kept him out of Viet Nam.
If people in their opinion silos suggest that cities and racial minorities are suffering more they 'real Americans', they will be absolutely fine with the shut-down. Otherwise, they will blame Obama.
Perhaps they need to be shown what suffering is like for others. MTG’s town drove non-whites out some years ago as I understand it. You can’t understand what you don’t know. Some of the ability to be oblivious is down to MAGA media. DeSantis is helping to amplify those views. I continue to hope someone somewhere will figure out ways to reach those that non-MAGA media doesn’t represent. Not trying was got Germany to find it was led by Nazis. That is simply unacceptable.
I wish I shared your optimism. But if past history is any guide, the ONLY way conservatives in general and MAGA in particular see a problem as relevant is if it directly affects them or people close to them. It was only when Rs understood that they knew or were related to gay people that they saw gay people as deserving of full status as humans and citizens. They absolutely do not care about the suffering of an outgroup.
As a matter of fact, many Republicans are not so doctrinaire about abortion these days. Which is why maximalist measures put up to a popular vote in Kansas and Wisconsin were defeated. These were red states, so Republican voters helped defeat them.
I'd love to know if this is due to MAGA and the right-wing in general placing more of an emphasis on respecting of persons (only people who are like me or who I know personally are reliable witness, and also can be given the benefit of the doubt) over respecting of behaviors. This would also be a root of the emphasis on personal loyalty (which appears to be more prevalent on the right).
Well, it is not like this has not happened before, also because of the Obstructionist wing of what once was the Grand Old Party. Why wouldn't anyone who pays the least bit of attention to what is happening in Washington know that? OK, that lets most of the base off the hook, but some have to be paying attention, don't they? Or do they just get the Readers' Digest version from Fox and Tucker?
Surely not everyone is so trapped that they don’t compare media sources. Some of them must hear anti-MAGA viewpoints from friends and relatives. The Trumpies may reject those ideas out of hand, but surely some will be curious.
Germany, 1932: Surely it can't happen here. Oh, it's happening here alright. The First Amendment has become America's cup of hemlock as the dis-information industry makes billions from the Dunning-Kruger crowd.
I will happily give you a point by point view of Hitler’s rise and Trump’s rise. You will be shocked. I think I may post about it in my Substack space.
I've been bleating about the dis-information industry for several years now and any progress toward reining in the bile hiding behind the First Amendment has been mostly ignored until recently. However, no substantive courses of action have been suggested. Goebbels only needed about 30% of the German voters to believe his propaganda for Hitler to take control legally. I'd say that America is about there. James Madison would be appalled, I believe, at the current state of our "well-informed electorate".
Nice to meet you, Alexandra, you “sweet summer child”. But seriously, I used to think the base was penetrable to facts from reliable sources, but no longer. Comparing media sources is definitely not their thing. But it’s a lovely thought.
I try not to be unrealistic. But people did turn away from Trump after Jan. 6. Cassidy Hutchinson explained that she felt really torn about Trumpworld. She knew what was happening ran counter to all her deeply held beliefs, but she was a part of something she had come to feel was central to her life. People actually do leave cults despite being subjected to threats and all manner of emotional distress--but it can be done. Ok--these are outliers, but every vote counts when margins are thin.
Isn’t Hutchison amazing? Listening to interviews with her caused me to think of my own past, and I recognized times when I failed to follow my own moral compass in favor of belonging to a group.
I like your optimism. I wonder if leaving the cult of Trump will become a stampede, once it gets started. I wouldn’t rule it out.
I have the utmost admiration for C. Hutchinson. To hold to your deeply held convictions when everyone is against you and you are being threatened with violence is magnificent.
What I’d give to have had her qualities in my mid twenties. Or even now, at age 71! I hope she has a future in public service. Those like her don’t come around very often.
Heh. I meant my MIL’s virulently anti-Trump son, although my son is almost a match for his father on that subject.
What I really mean is my MIL has had 60 solid years without a serious counterpoint to the carefully cultivated religious right propaganda/worldview; through her late husband, her tv habits, and through her church friends.
Until she lived with us I don’t think she had any reason to question what she was hearing, so our different viewpoints are hard for her to grasp.
Look, we have to try. Sitting back and throwing up our hands won’t make us feel better if the worst comes to pass. I try to listen and ask non-confrontational questions. Sometimes alternatives break through. Some MAGA people are too frightening for me to engage in conversation. It is not ok on any level to let an unglued dictator come back into power. This time there would be no adults in the room. It is a terrifying prospect.
I would make the case that they don't, because if they properly understood the consequences of their votes, they wouldn't elect the likes of Comer and Jordan to begin. And even if it's the worst case scenario and all those services that people depend on grind to a halt, these people would find someone else to blame for it.
To put it another way, while Bulwark-style conservatism still believes in personal responsibility, MAGA believes in scapegoating. That will never change.
I’m afraid that for many what you say is true. I continue to hope that there are some people who are able to question what is happening. I imagine that most of them will shift the blame. People in cults (Heaven’s Gate, Jim Jones) can’t always see when their lives are threatened.
Never forget that MAGA is also doing the bidding of their base, which wants the chaos and destruction.
"Flooding the zone with shit"as steve Bannon once opined.
It only works because his intended audience has zero critical thinking skills. And it will never cease to amaze that that someone as wealthy as Bannon has no gratitude for living in a country that's allowed him to do as well as he has.
I think “flooding the zone” also works because it is overwhelming our federal law enforcement capabilities. Trump is only now getting called on the carpet for transgressions going back decades. Not much of it is new, but rather the resources are now focused on him. So much grift, so few investigators. Probably applies to many GOP sugar daddies.
Bannon is a total cynic. He loves chaos and influence.
Also makes you wonder what kind of shenanigans he might have been up to when he was a naval officer...
I'm guessing that in any other administration, Bannon would not have gotten a security clearance like he did with Trump. The fact that he's still a free man and allowed to do what he's doing stuns me.
I have said this before and will say it again: the MAGA folks--the Steve Bannon, Trump, etc. cadre--are doing work that the Chinese and Russians have long wanted: Destroy the norms of a democratic society and undermine confidence in every democratic institution.
Absolutely. I have studied Russia as the bulk of my life’s work. They are laughing.
In my opinion, there is a bright through line from Trump asking for emails to this absurd hearing: DNC hack > Pizzagate > QAnon > "the Steal" > "the Biden Crime Family."
The stakes for Putin now are far higher than in 2016.
The groundwork laid in that time is all he needs. He can sit back and watch it unfold. Except for aid to Ukraine he's got what he wanted.
'Russia, Russia, Russia" doesn't begin to capture it.
I consider Bannon a domestic enemy of the United States, and should be dealt with as such.
And yet Bannon walks free. The wheels of Justice are definitely grinding slowly for that one. He might succumb to his cooties before he meets Lady Justice.
I think his time is coming.
He's going to have his "time in the barrel" soon.
I hope so.
It's so obvious. I couldn't agree more. Can add Tucker Carlson and Michael Flynn to that list.
And Rupert Murdoch
I wonder if all of the base really knows the consequences of their Representatives’ actions. In the moment chaos may sound great until people don’t receive paychecks, child assistance is stopped, workers are furloughed or forced to work for delayed pay (unlike members of Congress). Do they all know what the economic consequences could be globally?
No. It would take repeated shut downs over years to get that point across. Back when the California budget could only get passed by a 2/3 vote of the legislature, shut downs or furloughs of workers would start in July and continue sometimes for two months. It affects more than just those who worked for the state government directly. Vendors that did business with the state didn't get paid...one governor tried paying with "vouchers" that weren't actually money, but that was a gesture really, nothing that actually helped them. After several years of this, the voters passed a Constitutional amendment to end that supermajority requirement.
The base will be hurt, and maybe surprised, as they blame Biden. Their representatives will have achieved their chaos goal without a scratch. Maybe next election will have consequences, but unlikely.
Maybe. But even Fox is getting annoyed with the extreme right. They know it isn’t a good look. And some of their hosts are rolling their eyes at the Biden impeachment failure.
Yes, I think the subtle shift in the wind at Fox is part of my own shift in optimism, which actually entered my awareness just yesterday. I’ve been trying to dissect it for authenticity. And I even stated it publicly here, in a very bold move!
Could you forward your comment or repeat it for me? I’m really interested.
I’ve never done this before, so here goes. Sorry I took so long - real life interrupted my musings. I hope the link works.
https://open.substack.com/pub/morningshots/p/comers-fiasco?r=9qs5q&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=40962028
This is the third or fourth shutdown since the 90s. The most recent was only 4+ years ago. Some people may be able to argue ignorance, but at this point it's just apathy and malice
I think I heard yesterday that ALL those shutdowns were via the GOP. Unsurprising.
Yup, only happens when they have at least one house of Congress. They even shutdown when they have the White House!!
They seem a bit confused; every single Director of the FBI has been a Republican. Every single one. And yet the GOP is picking a fight with them as an enemy. I guess they thought their own FBI guys would follow the unofficial playbook and ignore the rule of law for their own kind.
Yep. They are Trump's devotees. There are hangers-on to the Republican label, but they have no principles in common that are not abandoned in a heartbeat for His Majesty, Trump.
Logic doesn’t seem to be necessary.
It’s definitely in short supply.
That's exactly the problem. Not all of them realize that "law and order" was taken as heartfelt by a lot of their fellow travelers. They long for the good ol' days when the feds would monitor MLK Jr.
The more violence that is threatened and meted out to federal law enforcement, the clearer it will become that the real domestic terror threat is MAGA.
Maybe they are seeing the light, when it’s a spotlight placed 2 inches from their eyes . . . for several days. Okay, years.
Of course you are right. But not all those who would be affected this time were affected last time. We were also not in the middle of supporting a war. And we did not get a credit downgrade as a result. This Congress will be responsible for two downgrades. That is serious and unprecedented.
Not following you on the, "We were also not in the middle of supporting a war."
The last three shutdowns were in the middle of US wars.
I stand corrected. We were in Afghanistan last time. That was Biden’s big mistake in my book. I don’t think we should have withdrawn all personnel. And we should never have done it the way we did.
He didn’t have a lot of choice. Trump made the agreement and the timeline. Ive also heard it suggested that the intel assessment was completely imaginary
This time the military is affected; last time they weren’t. I wonder if that detail will erode support for Trumpism/MAGA in the ranks of the military.
I think the military is going to be royally pissed off. Not only will they have no pay I’m sure a lot of them have also heard Trump’s statements about people killed in war being losers, or that McCain, a real hero, was a jerk. And down the line Trump’s remarks about General Milley--someone known widely by the rank and file--should be “hung” (not standard English: a painting is hung, a person is hanged). And what does Trump think would have happened to Europe or even the US without those people in uniform being willing to lay down their lives. Of course he knows no history or geography.
I agree. And I welcome them to their own tipping point; better late than never. I mean, Trumps egregious disrespect of the military is very old news, starting with imaginary bone spurs that kept him out of Viet Nam.
If people in their opinion silos suggest that cities and racial minorities are suffering more they 'real Americans', they will be absolutely fine with the shut-down. Otherwise, they will blame Obama.
Perhaps they need to be shown what suffering is like for others. MTG’s town drove non-whites out some years ago as I understand it. You can’t understand what you don’t know. Some of the ability to be oblivious is down to MAGA media. DeSantis is helping to amplify those views. I continue to hope someone somewhere will figure out ways to reach those that non-MAGA media doesn’t represent. Not trying was got Germany to find it was led by Nazis. That is simply unacceptable.
I wish I shared your optimism. But if past history is any guide, the ONLY way conservatives in general and MAGA in particular see a problem as relevant is if it directly affects them or people close to them. It was only when Rs understood that they knew or were related to gay people that they saw gay people as deserving of full status as humans and citizens. They absolutely do not care about the suffering of an outgroup.
How does this explain their explicit oppression of women> They certainly know a few of them.
As a matter of fact, many Republicans are not so doctrinaire about abortion these days. Which is why maximalist measures put up to a popular vote in Kansas and Wisconsin were defeated. These were red states, so Republican voters helped defeat them.
I'd love to know if this is due to MAGA and the right-wing in general placing more of an emphasis on respecting of persons (only people who are like me or who I know personally are reliable witness, and also can be given the benefit of the doubt) over respecting of behaviors. This would also be a root of the emphasis on personal loyalty (which appears to be more prevalent on the right).
The real base neither knows nor cares. Shut the whole shebang down until their savior gets re-elected, would be their druthers.
Well, it is not like this has not happened before, also because of the Obstructionist wing of what once was the Grand Old Party. Why wouldn't anyone who pays the least bit of attention to what is happening in Washington know that? OK, that lets most of the base off the hook, but some have to be paying attention, don't they? Or do they just get the Readers' Digest version from Fox and Tucker?
Surely not everyone is so trapped that they don’t compare media sources. Some of them must hear anti-MAGA viewpoints from friends and relatives. The Trumpies may reject those ideas out of hand, but surely some will be curious.
Germany, 1932: Surely it can't happen here. Oh, it's happening here alright. The First Amendment has become America's cup of hemlock as the dis-information industry makes billions from the Dunning-Kruger crowd.
I will happily give you a point by point view of Hitler’s rise and Trump’s rise. You will be shocked. I think I may post about it in my Substack space.
I've been bleating about the dis-information industry for several years now and any progress toward reining in the bile hiding behind the First Amendment has been mostly ignored until recently. However, no substantive courses of action have been suggested. Goebbels only needed about 30% of the German voters to believe his propaganda for Hitler to take control legally. I'd say that America is about there. James Madison would be appalled, I believe, at the current state of our "well-informed electorate".
Nice to meet you, Alexandra, you “sweet summer child”. But seriously, I used to think the base was penetrable to facts from reliable sources, but no longer. Comparing media sources is definitely not their thing. But it’s a lovely thought.
I try not to be unrealistic. But people did turn away from Trump after Jan. 6. Cassidy Hutchinson explained that she felt really torn about Trumpworld. She knew what was happening ran counter to all her deeply held beliefs, but she was a part of something she had come to feel was central to her life. People actually do leave cults despite being subjected to threats and all manner of emotional distress--but it can be done. Ok--these are outliers, but every vote counts when margins are thin.
Isn’t Hutchison amazing? Listening to interviews with her caused me to think of my own past, and I recognized times when I failed to follow my own moral compass in favor of belonging to a group.
I like your optimism. I wonder if leaving the cult of Trump will become a stampede, once it gets started. I wouldn’t rule it out.
I have the utmost admiration for C. Hutchinson. To hold to your deeply held convictions when everyone is against you and you are being threatened with violence is magnificent.
A real American hero
Today I get to start reading her book!
What I’d give to have had her qualities in my mid twenties. Or even now, at age 71! I hope she has a future in public service. Those like her don’t come around very often.
Oh some of us relatives are vociferous on alternative viewpoints to the Fox/MAGA/Xn TV takes.
Great, but does it have any positive or ameliorative effect? If not, thanks anyway for trying.
Who ya gonna believe -- Your son or your favorite televangelist?
Well, ya clearly know your son better, so that helps with the answer one way or the other.
Heh. I meant my MIL’s virulently anti-Trump son, although my son is almost a match for his father on that subject.
What I really mean is my MIL has had 60 solid years without a serious counterpoint to the carefully cultivated religious right propaganda/worldview; through her late husband, her tv habits, and through her church friends.
Until she lived with us I don’t think she had any reason to question what she was hearing, so our different viewpoints are hard for her to grasp.
My use of "your" was generic, as I took your comment to be. No offense intended.
None taken.
Look, we have to try. Sitting back and throwing up our hands won’t make us feel better if the worst comes to pass. I try to listen and ask non-confrontational questions. Sometimes alternatives break through. Some MAGA people are too frightening for me to engage in conversation. It is not ok on any level to let an unglued dictator come back into power. This time there would be no adults in the room. It is a terrifying prospect.
This. Thank you!
No disagreement with your conclusion. None whatsoever.
I would make the case that they don't, because if they properly understood the consequences of their votes, they wouldn't elect the likes of Comer and Jordan to begin. And even if it's the worst case scenario and all those services that people depend on grind to a halt, these people would find someone else to blame for it.
To put it another way, while Bulwark-style conservatism still believes in personal responsibility, MAGA believes in scapegoating. That will never change.
I wonder how many of them think that they are not doing well and that a shutdown will not affect them.
I’m afraid that for many what you say is true. I continue to hope that there are some people who are able to question what is happening. I imagine that most of them will shift the blame. People in cults (Heaven’s Gate, Jim Jones) can’t always see when their lives are threatened.
I have zero hope for them. The best play is to assume the worst, and move on.