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Transcript
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SPEAKER 3
Hello, friends. This is JVL here with Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of The Bulwark. We are live on Saturday night, a few minutes before 10 p.m. in the East. America is at war, sort of, kind of, maybe, a little, hard to say. Donald Trump is going to speak to the country from the White House shortly.
0:26
What we know so far is that... American bombers flew some sorties against Iran, uh, seem to have dropped some ordinance, some of the GBU 57 bunker busters, um, allegedly two per target of the three targets, uh, Fordow, Natanz, and Esfahan. Uh, I get, we're going to talk just, you know,
0:50
briefly here while we wait for the president of the United States to inform the world about his big, beautiful bombing mission. And, uh, I don't know, like, uh, Tim, Sarah, initial thoughts?

Sarah, JVL and Tim React To U.S. Bombing of Iran

Earlier tonight, President Trump announced that the U.S. had launched strikes on critical nuclear sites in Iran. Trump spoke shortly after at the White House and JVL, Sarah and Tim reacted live

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Discussion about this video

User's avatar
Dale Brewster's avatar

“Murdering civilians”. Direct quote of Sarah Longwell. Who is murdering civilianas? The US military or the Israelie Joooz! Despicable comment either way

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Liz's avatar
5dEdited

I lol’d hard at Sarah’s delayed “Shut up, JVL.”

I think it’s really hard to see this as worth it unless the Iranian nuclear program is kaput, which no credible Iran security expert seems to think is probable.

Even delay just creates the long term incentive for proliferation and, probably, cooperation across America’s enemies even where they otherwise have disparate — or even contrary — wants. Needs to be more conversations writ large zooming out from Iran to Iran, Russia, and China.

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Walter Chuck's avatar

TFG pretty much got double dog dared to jump in on the behalf of Bibi. I am pretty sure the long red tie guy would not have attacked Iran in the manner that Israel did and probably doesn’t have a staff competent enough to plan and pull it off. The time of reckoning with some in his thrall might be when our soldiers are sent to the Middle East to support his decision.

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The Sea Siren Scrolls's avatar

Was there any radioactivity found after the bombing?

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Lana's avatar

Sarah mentioning Gaza and bringing up Netanyahu’s past threat is awesome.

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Shana's avatar

Awww, lookit the little red ties! I bet there's no tariff on dog treats. Good boys!

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Lorraine M. Greenberg's avatar

I agree with Sarah.

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Lynn Van Haren's avatar

I agree with Tim. “How is this our f’cking life?”

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Parrhizzia's avatar

How?

77 years of unlimited, unconditional support for a foreign, violent, religious ethnostate and 44 years of domestic neoconservatism.

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Lynn Van Haren's avatar

Trump gave Iran plenty of notice to remove everything from those 3 facilities

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Robert Kane's avatar

Folks, is it at all possible that someone might do a pod analyzing our new war with Iran in the historical context of how our relationship with Iran has evolved since the coup against Mohammad Mosaddegh that we and the UK orchestrated in 1953? Going on and on about how evil the current regime is ignores our role in bringing that regime to power. We've seen this movie before.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

"is it at all possible that someone might do a pod analyzing our new war with Iran in the historical context of how our relationship with Iran has evolved since the coup against Mohammad Mosaddegh that we and the UK orchestrated in 1953?"

Not on the Bulwark. For The Bulwark, Iranian history only began in 1979, just like Cuban history only began in 1959 or in 1949 for China.

Nothing happened in those countries before that time that could ever justify, even the slightest, the revolutions to displace right-wing tyrant dictators.

(And just like nothing ever happened in Gaza before Oct 7, 2023).

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Ryan McHugh's avatar

The Boomers are trying to do whatever they can to preserve their bullsh*t legacy which amounts to a big fat nothing:

Trump – 79

Netanyahu – 75

Putin – 72

Khamenei – 86

David Hogg was right, get all these Boomer Losers out of office! As a generation they would rather set the world on fire than pass the torch.

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Chris F's avatar

This administration has gutted civil service, fired or defunded critical operations, and is obsessed with immigration. I don’t trust them at all to keep us safe from an Iranian terror reprisal on US soil. It’s a threat even when an administration doesn’t have village idiots making the decisions.

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Samantha's avatar

I’d be more sympathetic to the neocon argument that this could be a good thing if the other wars led to good things. Didn’t Trump just hand Afghanistan back to the Taliban? Didn’t the Iraq war create Isis? I was 16 years old when 9/11 happened and the same bullshit excuses keep coming up. Maybe America isn’t that good at this??? Trillions of dollars wasted but yeah, student loan forgiveness or Universal Healthcare are SO SOCIALIST AND CRAZY. George Carlin, you are missed although you’re probably happy you’re dead so you don’t have to witness all this again. https://youtu.be/XLsIYl7K4gQ

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JanieC's avatar

Agree 100%! I am sick of this tired playbook justifying our violent meddling.

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Philip Keith's avatar

Trump’s public statements are completely untrustworthy, he feels no value in being honest with us, and this is at the center of his way of governing.

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Samantha's avatar

Thank you, Sarah for calling out the murder of the civilians in Gaza. Thank you, Bulwark for seeing Bibi as the Trump of Israel who is also an authoritarian and corrupt.

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Lana's avatar

Let Sarah speak!

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Lana's avatar

I felt they talked over her on this segment.

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Lana's avatar

No team has worked before. Has he any knowledge of World War 1 or 2?

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Stephanie Scott's avatar

JVL, you really need to read Lev Remembers (Lev Parnas) Substack today, Sunday, June 22. Yikes!

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Nikki Barrs's avatar

MIGA?!! 😲 Jesus Christ Trump is lazy and dumb!

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A Bains's avatar

Has anyone sounded less sincere invoking God than Donald Trump?

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Lana's avatar

Can we stop being Israel's bitch? This is uncalled for and I'm Jewish.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Nope, not yet.

But soon.

The question is: will Israel finish the Gaza genocide AND cause the US to get into another 20 years war?

Either way, Netanyahu wins, staying in power, and avoiding legal accountability for his domestic and international crimes.

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A. N.'s avatar

Trump thinking he'd get a "free shot" at Iran - while always cautioning about Russia possibly "going nuclear" - teaches other nations that they need nuclear weapons asap

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E.K. Hornbeck's avatar

When we have the "pacifist" Russia sympathizer/stooge Tulsi saying Iran is far from having a nuclear weapon and Netanyahu, Trump's Svengali, saying they're just weeks away, who do you believe, the fool or the liar?

So Trump picked Netanyahu because he's PO'ed about his parade and low approval.

As the saying goes, where are we going and why are we in this hand basket?

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Richard Turyn's avatar

Israel's godfather Netanyahu practically declared a Jubilee over America's bombing of Iran's nuclear bomb-creating sites but the lack of radiation leakage from them could mean that the materiel had all been moved out. The NY Times analysis writes, "Trump’s Strike on Iran Cements Netanyahu’s Political Comeback" and that sort of tags Bibi as the reat artist of the deal. The immediate risk is all Trump's.

In the next days or weeks, etc we have the luxury of hoping that the military's assessment of that risk was accurate, that a potential nuclear power run by an evil gang has been neutralized. If not, the planet will be in a worse way than before and Israel & the Jews will be blamed for playing Trump and us like a fiddle. Of course it could take much of the wind out of the sails of all of the Republicans in power who've invested their (wholly undeserved) credibility in the wannabe tyrant.

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AddisonDewitt's avatar

JVL would you do a future triad post on the us military industrial and the ‘to date’ bonanza especially all the ice orders!?!?!thanks

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Thomas Maida's avatar

While I generally agree with the bombings at a tactical, and even to some extent a strategic, level, I’m wondering about your take on the broader global dynamics, I.e., does the US unilateral action give credibility to Putin’s unilateral attack on Ukraine, and will it give “cover” for a Chinese attack on Taiwan?

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Herman Jacobs's avatar

In fairness to The Dearest Donald, he said he’d make a decision about attacking Iran “within two weeks” and would delay for “up to two weeks.” He apparently did not say he would wait the full two weeks.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/two-weeks-notice-trumps-deadline-iran-familiar-one-rcna214089

https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/20/politics/trump-iran-two-week-pause-analysis

That wording now seems like an intentional formulation that would probably fool Iran (and others) into thinking he intended to wait the full two weeks. Credit to Trump for maintaining the element of surprise.

As I’ve stated in other comments, my biggest concern is that Trump will use this “crisis” as a justification for claiming even more extraordinary domestic emergency powers. Trump has learned that he can manufacture a crisis and use the manufactured crisis to expand his emergency authorities—and that SCOTUS will let him do it. It’s an extremely troubling pattern, which The Dearest Donald might use to remain in office after January 2029.

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Steven's avatar

You three honestly believe Israel is *murdering civilians*? I don't understand what has happened to the Bulwark. I am a Democrat and you guys sound more far left than I do these days.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

I believe Israel IS murdering civilians (especially children), journalists, medical workers, UN workers, and NGO workers.

But that's only because they said they would, and because of the overwhelming amount of evidence they did exactly as they said they would.

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Steven's avatar

Who specifically said they would murder civilians?

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Parrhizzia's avatar

If I give you a list of Israeli politicians, media personalities and military officials, saying killing children is necessary, what will you do with that information?

Will you condemn them? Or will you say I am an antisemite? Will it be a waste of my time?

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Steven's avatar
4dEdited

Thank you for admitting that they said killing civilians is unfortunately inevitable and not that they are murdering civilians. My point exactly.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

That’s not what i said.

I said “necessary”, not “unfortunately inevitable”.

Necessary - to avoid them reaching adulthood, not because of some military need.

Necessary, because Israeli society is genocidal.

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Lily who reads The Bulwark's avatar

Funny how as soon as they say something you don’t like, you believe they’re “far left” and not simply telling the truth.

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Steven's avatar

They say plenty I disagree with. Would be weird if I agreed with everything, no? A few years ago these three were to my right, now they're to my left. Glad you find some humor in that.

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Lana's avatar
6dEdited

They are speaking about Palestinians who are civilians. The educated world agrees. Israel is going after civilians in the West Bank . The Bulwark is speaking the truth.

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Steven's avatar

You don't sound elitist at all :) How do you define "the educated world"? Israel ranks 11th in Nobel prizes per capita, and they certainly don't agree that they are murdering civilians.

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Lana's avatar

How are you defending Israel? We all can see Gaza’s kids suffering from hunger. I’m Jewish and and abhorred by this stuff. I know that Israel is smart which makes this worse. I meant that these countries are holding them responsible.

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Steven's avatar

No argument that life in Gaza is horrific, but I disagree about who is to blame. Hamas created this situation and refuses to surrender. I am not sure why being Jewish is relevant, except that Jews seem to be more willing to take the time to understand the Israeli mindset and experience, which is very different from Americans'.

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Lana's avatar
4dEdited

I'm an American and a Jew and a Palestinian. Israel is purposely not allowing food in. That's what we are talking about.

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Lana's avatar

You have no response because it’s terrible and inhumane. This is why some of the world is calling it out. Whatever your politics, feed people. Kids dying of hunger is an abomination and heartless.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

You fine to commit genocide if you are smart ... and Israeli.

It's called the "Bad Hasbara Theme Song" argument.

https://parrhizzia1.substack.com/p/poor-arguments-by-a-smart-professor?r=3hh94p

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Alex's avatar

Sara coming through with the top notch closet joke lol

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retrofocus80's avatar

BiBi pushed this LIE in 2002 to Congress bought it now he is doing again for IRAN. We had an agreement during President Obama’s term. Trump ripped it. Then trump was to negotiate the same deal but instead of persuing this goal, he listened to BiBi, not our intelligence but his instincts! We engaged in something between Iran & Israel. Now the dominoes will fall I’m sure no one thought about that part.

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Karen Landry's avatar

Trump had a big, bad, rotten week. God rained on his fake parade, millions said "No King", his ratings are doing poorly (like his educated voters), courts released prisoners that ICE bragged about, and his big, beautiful bill is stuck in Congress like a giant turd in a human. So, he sends the bombs.

The worst of all, he drove Sarah into the closet with a glass of wine.

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E.K. Hornbeck's avatar

That was a big glass too!

Did she have a bottle hidden below the camera?

Inquiring minds want to know!

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Kentuckistan's avatar

It comes in boxes now..I know this from wrangling my wife and her friends having slumber parties with boxes of wine.....(van gogh screaming emoji)

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Karen Landry's avatar

Luv it! I hope she did.

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Mike B's avatar
6dEdited

When considering Israel's motive for maneuvering the US into taking this action, I am mindful of other big issue Israel is likely addressing (besides nuclear capability).

Iran has been funding proxy groups on Israel's borders for years, who harass and kill Israeli citizens. While Israel has, at least temporarily, severely damaged these groups, they will likely reappear in one form or another.

Israel wants to eliminate Iran's capability to support these groups. This probably means more action than simply eliminating nuclear weapon sites and will require much more assistance from the US.

October 7 has appeared to forever change Israeli tolerance of Iran's support for these proxy groups. The horrible attack by Hamas on that day has only led to the gruesome assaults against Hamas' own people (who they hide amongst) and now this reckoning with its unknown consequences. Consequences that may include eliminating one state sponsor of terrorist groups, but do little to stop the cycle of hate and revenge.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

This is correct - history started on Oct 7, and nothing happened before Oct 7.

There is absolutely no justification for any of Israel's enemies to attack Israel ever, but every atrocity that Israel ever committed for 75 years before Oct 7, or since Oct 7, is fully justified by what happened on Oct 7.

Israel is the only victim, the perfect victim, the forever victim.

If you find error in this post-hoc logic, you are an antisemite, and want to kill all Jews everywhere.

I could write for the Atlantic.

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Mike B's avatar

Similar to Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah both publicly stated their support for the destruction of Israel. Prior to October 7th, I thought Hamas opposed negotiating with Israel on a two state solution. Just going by what I've read from multiple news sources and heard their leaders and members say in videos/news stories.

And Israel has citizens who, with govt. support, have moved onto and seized land owned by Palestinians. This is wrong. Israel has now killed thousands of civilians in their desire to eliminate Hamas (the group that wants to destroy Israel).

Primarily targeting and killing non-combatants, like Hamas on October 7th, makes people hate you more. Killing non-combatants in search of your enemy, like Israel, also makes people hate you more.

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Dan Dicker's avatar

I’m HARDLY a Trump fanboy. Nobody makes me nuttier, every single fucking day.

However -

—bombing w/o congressional approval is the MO of all modern US presidents - Obama didn’t bother with it in Libya in 2010, either.

— If you’re looking for corroborating intelligence, Israeli intelligence is the best anyone’s got, and while the idea of “imminent risk” of a nuclear device is DEFINITELY questionable NOW, the indications of significant progress of Iran towards fissile, bomb quality uranium is not arguable, despite the quotable stupidity of Tulsi Gabbard, as is their missile technology to deliver it which is clearly being developed to deliver heavy ordinance to Israel. Why develop that particuarly if you're not planning the option of something more?

NOW - IS IT TRUE that Netanyahu has been whining about the “imminent capability” of Iranian nuclear weapons for 15 years? YES.

IS IT TRUE that Netanyahu is in a political position to make bombing Iran now very suspicious and politically advantageous to himself? YOU BET.

IS IT TRUE that Netanyahu knows how to fellate the President of the US “just so” to get exactly what he wants, when he wants it? NO DOUBT.

BUT - it is also true that Israel has eliminated many of the tools for retaliation at Iran’s disposal in Gaza, the West Bank and in Southern Lebanon and Golan, weakening Iran decisively. Russia is also busy with Ukraine, making this a prime moment if there ever was one, for dealing with the ongoing Iranian nuclear weapons threat. Now, you could argue that the methods of eliminating some of those tools has been unduly brutal and inhumane and even a war crime and I MIGHT AGREE with that, and yet, the military implications and opportunity still remains for today and likely today only.

FINALLY - it’s also true that the expressed policy of both Democratic and Republican presidents since the Iranian revolution has been that a Iranian nuclear weapons capability is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE and will not be tolerated — that’s what the JCPOA was all about as well — which despite Trump’s walkaway was a deal ultimately doomed to failure, which anyone with any diplomatic experience in the Middle East will tell you. (I recall going to a half dozen conferences discussing this with Obama State Department spokesmen at the time - nobody bought Kerry's analysis then, and it's proven to be at best incredibly optimistic -- if not complete kumbaya fantasy in expectations from an extreme islamic religious state). To blame Trump's walkaway from the JCPOA as the 'reason' for needing this US military sortie is facile and inaccurate, although it did likely accelerate it maybe a year.

Instead it seems to me that this US military mission with armaments unique ONLY TO THE US military was INEVITABLE, and I for one have thought so since the JCPOA was signed in 2015.

I cannot foretell the future, no one can. But I am convinced that the US (and yes, Trump) has done a good deed for the world yesterday -- provided Trump, the Republicans and the Israelis have learned their lessons of the neo-con bullshit on 'regime change' that led to the 10 year Iraqi disaster.

I hope to God they have.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

You’ve got to hand it to Bibi Netanyahu who once again proved he knows American presidents better than they know themselves. I suspect Trump having bombed the nuclear sites will cal victory and try to go back to regular programming. This probably won’t end the hostilities — the Iranians have long memories and mischievous minds. At the very least there will be probably be ongoing low level hostilities. Trump also always expects payment and I wonder what pound of flesh he’ll ask of Bibi for helping him ‘finish’ the job.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Don't call him that. Call him by the name on the international criminal warrant.

The hostilities CAN'T end, because Netanyahu must remain at war to avoid accountability for his domestic and international war crimes.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

I appreciate you pointing that out, but I’ll call him what I want to call him.

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Leslie K's avatar

Quote of the day by Tim, ‘how is this our f*cking life?’

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Carol E Smith's avatar

Agreed. He said those words with all the emotion I was feeling.

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Joe's avatar

I would like to see the U.S. offer a path forward for the citizens of Iran and that would be for the US to provide safe modern modular nuclear reactors for power generation. The UN could provide security around these sites. These could be in the form of the Small Modular Reactors that are considered to be the next step in commercializing nuclear.

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Kevin's avatar

"Mission Accomplished!!!" ... trump

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Nick's avatar

I’m impressed Sarah is drinking wine out of a fishbowl.

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Carol E Smith's avatar

So funny. Thank you for making me laugh.

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Lana's avatar

It's a glass, probably from our wine country. Both her and Tim lived here once upon a time.

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Nanalin's avatar

Russia doesn’t want a regime change -they have a deal with Iran. This is for show and Lev Parnas and Malcolm Vance have inside information - everyone one should listen to their podcasts

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Michael's avatar

From Times of Israel:

Power is not the answer to all problems. But neither is restraint. If you have the power to prevent the world’s biggest exporter of terrorism from developing nuclear immunity yet fail to use it, then disarm, embrace pacifism, and prepare to suffer the consequences.

To those who blame President Trump for abandoning the JCPOA, Barack Obama’s deal with Iran, consider this: Had the JCPOA still been in effect, its “sunset clause,” allowing Iran to produce advanced centrifuges capable of enriching uranium to weapons grade level in a matter of weeks, would be coming into effect around now. At the same time, the JCPOA would have permitted Iran to continue developing nuclear warheads and delivery systems.

And had the economic sanctions ended, Iran would have benefited from a massive infusion of funds, immensely strengthening the regime and its terror proxies. Iran would have become the regional power in the Arab world; a nuclear Iran would have been virtually unstoppable.

For the last 40 years, the Iranian regime has consistently expressed, in rhetoric and policy, its intention to destroy the Jewish state. Yet the international community took those threats and actions in stride. There has been little or no outrage from governments, human rights organizations, or religious leaders at the genocidal threat aimed at Israel. Most of all, the UN accepted as a given the violation of its own charter, which states that a member state may not threaten the existence of another. The moral burden for the current crisis is not on Israel but the world.

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/this-had-to-be-done/

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Kevin's avatar

This presumes that no additional negotiating would've happened had the deal remained intact and Iran continued to honor it. The JCPOA was never intended to be the be all end all agreement, but rather an initial agreement to work from.

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Michael's avatar

But the JCPOA strenghtened Irans hands so the idea that one was going to get a more restrictive deal at the end or in the middle of the JCPOA is sort of fanciful. But the larger point is even if you believe the JCPOA was the best deal ever or the best deal at the end, at the end of the JCPOA it was always going to be what Trump just did because even if the JCPOA had been followed, Iran would be on the brink of the bomb today. So love the JCPOA if you like but you can't love it with any consisitent logic and then decry what just happened. I don't like Trump and wish it had been a different President that gets to claim the credit but it is what it is.

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Richard Campbell's avatar

Timothy Snyder posted this a few hours ago.

Five things to remember about war:

1. Many things reported with confidence in the first hours and days will turn out not to be true

2. Whatever they say, the people who start wars are often thinking chiefly about domestic politics

3. The rationale given for a war will change over time, such that actual success or failure in achieving a named objective is less relevant than one might think

4. Wars are unpredictable

5. Wars are easy to start and hard to stop.

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Richard Pacheco's avatar

Point #2 is the main one, IMHO. The entry into the war is his wag-the-dog move.

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Cascadian's avatar

Obama successfully negotiated an agreement with Iran that delayed its nuclear weapons program significantly. Trump burned that agreement, saying he would do much better. Of course he failed. This made him look inferior to Obama. That was the real crisis, and it had to be resolved by any means necessary ....

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Michael's avatar

Obama negotiated an agreement that provided Iran with a pathway to the bomb. A delayed pathway but one that would be coming to fruition now.

From Yossi Klein Halevi

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/this-had-to-be-done/

From Power is not the answer to all problems. But neither is restraint. If you have the power to prevent the world’s biggest exporter of terrorism from developing nuclear immunity yet fail to use it, then disarm, embrace pacifism, and prepare to suffer the consequences.

To those who blame President Trump for abandoning the JCPOA, Barack Obama’s deal with Iran, consider this: Had the JCPOA still been in effect, its “sunset clause,” allowing Iran to produce advanced centrifuges capable of enriching uranium to weapons grade level in a matter of weeks, would be coming into effect around now. At the same time, the JCPOA would have permitted Iran to continue developing nuclear warheads and delivery systems.

And had the economic sanctions ended, Iran would have benefited from a massive infusion of funds, immensely strengthening the regime and its terror proxies. Iran would have become the regional power in the Arab world; a nuclear Iran would have been virtually unstoppable.

For the last 40 years, the Iranian regime has consistently expressed, in rhetoric and policy, its intention to destroy the Jewish state. Yet the international community took those threats and actions in stride. There has been little or no outrage from governments, human rights organizations, or religious leaders at the genocidal threat aimed at Israel. Most of all, the UN accepted as a given the violation of its own charter, which states that a member state may not threaten the existence of another. The moral burden for the current crisis is not on Israel but the world.

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Cascadian's avatar

The only other alternative at the time was Iran getting nuclear weapons right away. Or, of course, war. The agreement easily could have led other successful diplomacy, and to an extension or another, similar agreement -- that's the norm.

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Michael's avatar

wrong. Max pressure campaign like we saw in Trump 1.0 to get a better deal. That was the alternataive not tried because Obama and Kerry are bad negotiators who don't understand the Middle East and were too eager for a deal...any deal. So the Iranians gave them a bad deal. But even if you believe the JCPOA was the best deal ever, the end was always going to be what Trump just did because even if the JCPOA had been followed, Iran would be on the brink of the bomb today. So love the JCPOA if you like but you can't love it with any consisitent logic and then decry what just happened. I don't like Trump and wish it had been a different President that gets to claim the credit but it is what it is.

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Cascadian's avatar

You think I'm wrong and I think you're wrong ... so we agree to disagree.

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Michael's avatar

True except I have facts and logic and you have wishful thinking.

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

No, you have hyperbole. But I’m sure you’re racing down to the recruitment center. Just like you did in 2003z

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Michael's avatar

What is hyperbole? Which part?

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

Your entire schtick since Israel’s initial strikes has been hyperbolic. The idea that withdrawing from the JCPOA 8 years ago to conduct these strikes now is asinine. And you keep dodging the question, when are YOU heading down to enlist? Or conversely, where the fuck were YOU between 2001 and 2021?

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Michael's avatar

So you have no argument, just personal attacks. Thank you for the demonstration.

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

All you have is emotional manipulation and fear mongering. Your response wasn’t worthy of anything else.

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Cascadian's avatar

😵‍💫

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Dennis's avatar

Gee, he didn't mention the election being stolen?

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Lynnette Van Epps-Smith's avatar

T is the master of hyberbole

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shayaz's avatar

Give us two weeks to think about this….

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Maxine Milner Krugman's avatar

Everyone and everything is correct. My even larger concern is that T didn’t even sit with the gang of 8(4 Rs and 4 Ds) in leadership. Who besides Bibi is handling T on this? They have gone to war with no authority except that which is self serving. T better hope there is no higher power because he and his goons take blasphemy to a new level.

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shayaz's avatar

I agree with jVL , we are so entangled with Israel ; now everything , Palestine, Iran has entangled the USA in a mess of war and killing and death with no plan….

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Tim Matchette's avatar

Thanks you three for getting together on a Saturday night and giving us your outstanding and intelligent takes. The felon came off as the usual clown he has always been using pet names for the JCS and the absurd god comment and Manny, Moe and Jack looked like they wanted to be somewhere else. Never underestimate Islam. They will be coming and as I said before, there is no one home who can handle it. This is serious shit and it is heading right for us. This is what happens when fools are elected and like the fools they are, they do foolish things that get people killed. Remember Vietnam and Iraq.

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Kentuckistan's avatar

Does anybody else have the feeling that we just stapled ourselves to Netanyahu right before he ethnically cleanses Gaza and the West Bank of about 5 million Palestinians?

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Judith Hofeditz's avatar

Agree

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allison holland's avatar

Trump is not fit to be President. Especially now at this very moment.

Bibi handled him beautifully. powerfully. and maybe its true that Trump will get the Gaza Trump Hotel and beach front. Bibi probably told him that Putin is done and there will be an hotel in Moscow without Putins help. Trump serves his own interests only. He doesnt care if we are bombed. He never cared. We elected a man who doesnt care about us. He hates lots of us. Hates our cities. Hates our freedom. I pray for his dimise because I love my country and he is destroying it.

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Wolfpack Dem's avatar

You can 100% tell that "the best partnership in EVER" reference last night was planted by Bibi. Along with several other bits.

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Memo-55's avatar

As George said- a smart evil man has conned an evil stupid man to do his bidding.

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Mikey's avatar

Based upon the comments of Trump, Vance, and Hegseth, this is not a war, it is the next crusade.

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Kentuckistan's avatar

Trump steals all his best lines...."We're on a mission from God" is from the Blue Brothers I believe

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Wolfpack Dem's avatar

That's how they keep the foot soldiers onside. It will be sold as "God's will." Telegraphed with that creepy, child-like bit at the end of Trump's ramblings last night.

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Pete Mcaveney's avatar

I have a weird ability to foresee the future on occasion. No, I'm not crazy and I've learned not to talk about it too much. It only kicks in now and then and hasn't been really useful in life. I have a couple of notches in my belt though: knew Iraq didn't have WMD from the start, made money during the 2008-9 stock market crash, haven't been surprised by anything Trump has done so far, etc. Why am I writing this? I have a suspicion. This is a 10% probability scenario. Some would label that improbable, I'd label it disturbingly likely, most people can't wrap their head around what to do with it. I suggest reading it as a strategy for the red team in a wargame exercise.

It hinges on blind spots and unexamined assumptions that I've noticed in the Neocon / Israeli analysis of Iran over the last few decades. I'm going to list the bad assumptions below and build up to the 10% scenario.

Assumption: Iran is run by religious fanatics who don't think clearly about military strategy.

There was a time in the early Iran/Iraq war when this was true - i.e. the human wave attacks - but those people are dead or discredited by now. Their leadership has shown a good grasp of strategy. They've had some successes and some failures, as in any war, but they seem to be strategizing as effectively as the U.S. Are they engaged in a religious war against the west? Sure, maybe, but look at the history of the crusades and the protestant/catholic wars. They flared hot and cold over the course of centuries. That's a very long term goal.

Assumption: Our intelligence services are fantastic and we know everything about their nuclear program.

If I was facing an enemy with overwhelming intelligence-gathering abilities I would do two things. First, I would separate my secrets into two piles: things the enemy will uncover anyway versus things I will take extreme measures to keep secret. Second, I would feed the enemy a bunch of false intelligence to cover up the second pile of items. I'm going to assume Iran has a few tricks still up their sleeve.

Assumption: If Iran gets the bomb then Israel faces an existential threat - in other words, Iran will nuke them off the map.

The history of nuclear proliferation has a pattern. No nation has obtained the bomb and immediately used it against their enemies. Consistently they attempt to deter their enemies from attacking them. If I were planning a first strike attack on an enemy I wouldn't plaster the subways with propaganda posters denouncing them - I would want the element of surprise.

Assumption: Iran's missiles have improved but are not big enough for nukes, and they do not yet know how to miniaturize a warhead.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Assumption: Iran is months away from the bomb - and has been for ten years!

It almost refutes itself. I'll note that Iran has done an excellent job of frog boiling here.

Scenario: Trump gives the go-ahead and US joins the air war against the Iranian nuclear program. Iran's immediate counter-move is to close the Straits of Hormuz to ship traffic, cutting off half the world's supply of oil from the Persian Gulf. That forces the US to respond, and in go the carrier task forces to break this up.

It is two in the morning when they spot the incoming missiles on the radar of the USS Nimitz. Fortunately they are not terribly effective and no ships are hit as they scramble their defenses against attack from the air. At the same time, though, sailors spot speedboats. Iran has employed them before and the admirals have practiced defenses against a zerg attack by suicide bombers on these craft. When the first shells hit the water and take out the first speedboat, though, the radio operators hear "<click> <click> <click>." The nighttime turns to day. Two of the boats detonate their weapons. Their design is primitive but reliable and they are larger and heavier than missile-delivered nukes. One misfires and delivers a 10 kiloton blast but the other provides its designed 100 kiloton explosion.

The ayatollah broadcasts a message. He was always reluctant to use these un-islamic weapons but both the greater and lesser Satans (U.S. and Israel) have them and Iran needs a deterrent. Therefore, if there is any retaliation he promises to detonate more bombs which are pre-positioned in American cities and near military bases. And if the U.S. invades, he promises that he will nuke the beachheads.

Reminder: fight on the ground of your own choosing!

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Christopher Hull's avatar

I thought for a moment there he was going to say that they're eating the dawgs.

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Liz's avatar

I think, short term, MAGA rallies. Medium to long term, it’s blood in the water for someone to be successor MAGA.

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Memo-55's avatar

Let's hope so- looking at you, JD.

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JoAnn Kalenak's avatar

Trump bombed Iran to show his base that he's not a chicken. Period. Don't look for American interest, or who else benefits. It's all about Trump. This morning, he leads EVERY single news feed all around the world. That's the point.

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Heather Schlessman's avatar

The Iranian parliament has approved the closure of the Strait of Hormuz, with a final decision to be made by security authorities, Al Arabiya reports. “ You mean that the authoritarian regime, has a parliamentary process that decides policy, before security decisions are made, just like the USA used to do?” Most underrated comment on Bluesky by Tim Morton.

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Bruce Whitney's avatar

Heather, respectfully: very few Iranian observers/analysts believe that Iran is much of a democracy. The Iranian parliament is filled with hard liners who support the mullahs/IRCG because the Guardian Council, which is the Iranian election authority, is a hard line body controlled by leadership. The Guardian Council vets all candidates who want to compete in elections and consistently deems Iranians with more liberal/moderate views ineligible.

As far as security goes, the Iranian president doesn't decide security decisions and the parliament doesn't either - that's reserved for the leadership.

A charitable view of Morton's comment is that it was mainly directed against our own beleaguered democracy. But implying that Iran has a functioning democracy is just wrong.

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Heather Schlessman's avatar

I think the charitable view is the one we were going for, but I appreciate the information.

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Bruce Whitney's avatar

Understood.

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Wolfpack Dem's avatar

This is the only place (that I know of) where people can rationally discuss this batshittery, from a solidly anti-Trump, anti-Bibi (though give him credit - he knows how to manipulate Trump (by kissing every rancid inch of his ass) like nobody else in the world). Evil, but not dumb.

There are a few, highly-dedicated agitators here (but so many more elsewhere in the centre-left verse) that want to push the discussion into explicitly anti-Israel territory. Some are at least genuine, some I firmly believe are doing so with the goal of further splitting the Democratic/pro-Enlightenment coalition.

It's playing with fire, and would obliterate our moral authority. Sarah, Tim, and The JVL all walk this line correctly, and I am grateful to all three for their leadership and human decency.

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

The “anti-Israel territory” being “let’s not go to war for Israel”?

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Wolfpack Dem's avatar

Nope. Perfectly sane to say we shouldn't participate in the war that Israel started.

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Heather Schlessman's avatar

Maybe it’s the mood I’m in today, but I don’t think it mattered one bit who the D candidate was in 2024. Due to decades of lies by the GOP and more recent Russian psyops in our social media we now have a majority of Americans who believe our country is in social decline and being overrun by violent illegal criminals and ONLY a strong man leader taking charge of everything can fix it. He can do whatever he wants. And I dont see the fever breaking.

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Thea's avatar

Congress is dead

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DavD's avatar

This is all very serious, and not my strong suit. So I want to thank Sarah, Tim and JVL for taking time on their Saturday night to share their perspectives. On a less serious note, I loved Tim's reaction to Trump giving thanks to God. He did a face palm, with his fingers split so he could look through his hand. Its like he was passing a horrific traffic accident and didn't want to look but couldn't help himself. 🤣

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Deirdre Browner's avatar

The whole chain of events was started by Oct 7th and is proving to be a serious miscalculation on the part of Iran. Whether this proves ultimately to be a mistake by Israel, which is still a Jewish state in the middle of a sea of Arab states, is a question that won't be answered for years. I'm in the camp of this was not our war and Trump's ego and need to be seen as a tough guy made him ripe for manipulation by Netanyahu. The most frightening thing is what this tells me about the next 3 plus years under this administration and how pliable our weak president will be to malign influences. I still do not understand how people could have thought this was a good idea. I'm with JVL on good luck America. We will need it.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

This is correct! It ALL started on Oct 7 - there is no history before Oct 7!

Nothing that Israel ever did could possibly justify what Hamas did on Oct 7, but everything Israel has done, both before and after Oct 7 is fully justified, post-hoc, by Oct 7.

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Deirdre Browner's avatar

I think that is a deliberate misread of what I was trying to say. The roots of the ongoing issues in the Middle East are too complicated for this space, but to clarify, I am not a big fan of Netanyahu and the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza is horrifying. However, Iran has long funded Hamas as a proxy to attack Israel, and Hamas' attack on Oct 7th has led to Israel's leveling of Gaza and attacks on Hezbollah, Lebanon, and Syria. Israel will likely become a pariah in a de-stabilized Middle East. I honestly think no one wins here and disagree with those saying that Trump did the right thing.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

“The whole chain of events was started by Oct 7th”

I deliberately misread that? My bad.

Just one additional counterpoint: it’s not complicated. It has been bloody, violent, disingenuous, but never complicated.

Complicated is just a word used to obfuscate history, and allow for the atrocities to continue.

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Mel's avatar
6dEdited

I know there are more pressing things to be concerned about in this outrageous moment. But is anyone else noticing that this video shows Donald Trump making a multiple sentence coherent-sounding speech using an adult vocabulary?

How much editing had to be done, how much prompting to stay on script, focus his eyes and not go off topic (although he did)?

Tim briefly noted this. The facial expressions of the men standing behind him are interesting too: Vance at least appears alive and alert, while the other two seem to be doing their best to resemble cardboard cutouts.

Secretary Rubio blinks a few times, but Hegseth's eyes and facial muscles don't move. This could just be due to botox, or it could be terror that he will have to take charge of something huge that he knows he can't handle.

Maybe they are all thinking about how to deny responsibility if this goes as badly as it potentially could.

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Jennifer's avatar

The media will NOT go there on his non-coherent sounding speech.

They did it with Biden, because they wanted trump.

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Adam J Schmidt's avatar

Well at least Trump had the chance to tell God we love him on live TV. 😐

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Keith Wresch's avatar

Makes one wonder how s/he feels about finally being a cameo in one of Trump’s reality TV appearances.

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SETH HALPERN's avatar

I'll thank Sarah not to claim that Israel is "murdering" civilians in Gaza.

You can claim that Israel has interpreted the "proportionality" required by international law too loosely if you want, but "murdering" sounds suspiciously close to an accusation of "genocide." Does Sarah really believe the IDF has decided to target civilians *qua* civilians - perhaps as a "hobby" as the leftist politician Yair Golan recently blurted out before lamely walking it back?

It was also silly of JVL to claim that Trump of all people has tied himself to Bibi Netanyahu's apron strings. The same Trump who cut a separate peace with the Houthis, hanging Israel out to dry? Who launched direct talks with both Hamas and Iran, again disregarding Israeli wishes?

I guarantee that if things go south after yesterday's operation, Trump will jump off the Bibi train so fast the whole episode will disappear into collective amnesia. I'm just shaking my head that any Israelis have suddenly deluded themselves into imagining the same Trump - whose very unreliability convinced Bibi finally to pull the trigger last week - is their BFF.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

It's genocide.

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Jennifer's avatar

Everyone plays trump.

Bibi did it perfectly to his own benefit.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

But everyone also pays Trump. What pound of flesh will he expect from Bibi?

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Mary-Pat Cormier's avatar

Great takes from all of you. I suspect that these hot takes will hold up weeks and months from now.

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ManFromGander's avatar

For a person (Trump) who is normally quite risk averse ("chicken"), attacking Iran seems like an unusual move. Bibi's minions truly performed a miracle in getting him to go along with their plans. If this goes sideways, I wonder what Plan B is.

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julia dream's avatar

"Desert Shield" with bombers. The US has wanted this since 1979.

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Jennifer's avatar

The GOP has wanted this.

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julia dream's avatar

Consider: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis "Political analysts cited the standoff as a major factor in the downfall of Carter's presidency, culminating in his landslide loss in the 1980 presidential election. The hostages were formally released into American custody one day after the Algiers Accords were signed, just minutes following the first inauguration of Ronald Reagan." Also: there was our "little naval war" with Iran in 1988. It's not "just" the GOP. I honestly don't believe. But then, I was teaching US History at the time and staying up on current events.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

*neocons

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Allison Berey's avatar

Love you 3, but last night was a time to include your resident foreign policy experts, rather than a discussion through the lens of political punditry. Glad Bill is talking to Eric E. today.

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Allison Berey's avatar

Love you 3, BUT this was a conversation that should have included your Shield of the Republic experts. It’s great that Bill is talking to Eric Edelman today, but last night’s focus should have been on foreign policy, not political punditry.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

They'll still be hung over from all the champagne they drank.

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Justin Lee's avatar

Bill Kristol and John Bolton got what they wanted.

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Monica in SoCal's avatar

And it'll turn out as well as the last war they wanted.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Oh, no Monica, you are wrong.

This will be much, MUCH worse than Iraq. Not even close.

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Nathan Gervais's avatar

I continue to believe Trump’s actions of the past week are a direct reaction to his embarrassment from the way last week’s military/birthday parade played out.

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Ellen Lake's avatar

While all three of you had excellent points tonight, I agreed most with Sarah. Military action by Trump feels terrifying and bad. I will attach myself to JVL’s optimism (where did that come from?) and hope only positive things come from this.

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Jayne Docherty's avatar

Does anyone remember that we have ICE because both parties supported the PATRIOT Act after 9/11? Expect more police state action as soon as Iran hits back.

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Alondra's avatar

We love you God he says. The bobble f'ing heads nod gravely. JFC.

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Richard Courtney's avatar

So much impulsivity, miscalculation, incompetency, stupidity, and suspension of any applied intelligence in favor of supporting the ego masturbation of a proven sociopathic criminal is an indelible shame our country will never live down.

And in the future, my understanding of history says the fuckwits that facilitated it will always deny the effects of it, and/or their participation.

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Jayne Docherty's avatar

Two things. Yes there is no way to say the Iranian nuclear program is dead. And he put Israel ahead of the US in his closing remarks. He told us exactly who called the shots on this idiocy. It wasn't Trump. The George Conway quoted summed it up.

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Pat's avatar

I'm sure DJT's delicate feelings got hurt when everybody started making fun of the "everything in two weeks" commitments. I would not doubt that the discussion in the Situation Room included the phrase "I'll show them".

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Richard Courtney's avatar

Let's be fair. Taco Gordo's ego vs. world peace? I mean we all know the priority here.

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Carole Nicholson's avatar

Wars are easy to start- hard to end.

The only thing I give them credit for is keeping the mission so secret. Trump and Hegseth can't control their pieholes so it may be a testament to the integrity of the military at large that it stayed quiet.

But to call it an overwhelming success seems premature.

I remember a former president standing in front of a "Mission Accomplished" sign. That didn't go well, did it?

Americans are undoubtedly less safe after this . Cyber attacks, suicide bombings, quite a few possibilities.

Why would Trump expect Iran to fold and not fight back?

Iran did not attack us and the U.S. attacked them unprovoked. I expect blowback .

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Monica in SoCal's avatar

Coming to a neighborhood near any one of us.

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Jennifer's avatar

This was a GOP wet dream.

Neocons who are against trump are liking him today.

Never trumpers are good with this too. They can't stand the messenger but love the message.

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IntheJug's avatar

Grape juice or a dry red Miss Sarah?

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Reldas's avatar

Everyday is fuck Israel day.

We should use the Tibetan Book of the Dead to make our foreign policy decisions too. Why just The Bible?

I don't care what a 5000-year-old book says. You do not have the right to colonize and genocide Palestine, the same way Europeans did to the Americas.

An ancient book of fairytales that says you're "chosen" is fucking bullshit.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

Read Melanie Phillips for actual history of the region; otherwise, your position is weakened.

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Reldas's avatar
6dEdited

I have a masters in security studies and a PhD in Islamic studies. I've lived in Egypt and Tunisia.

Israel is a settler colonial project intent on genociding the native population. Maybe that's not what it was 70 years ago but that's certainly what it is today.

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Samantha's avatar

Yeah, Israel’s ability to take out Hezbollah and Iran without murdering thousands of children really makes me believe that Bibi and right-wing Israeli extremists would love nothing more than to have a Trump Resort on the Gaza strip.

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Reldas's avatar

Trump, Putin and the Ayatollah are all elderly infirm deeply insecure men who can't face their own mortality and want to take the world with them.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

I don’t agree with what you said and would never say things that way, but that was quite the takedown.

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Reldas's avatar

I graduated high school from a rural Texas town four months before 9/11 happened. My entire college career was shaped by 9/11 but it didn't take long for me to realize that the fundamentalist Baptists I was raised by are really no different from al Qaida.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

Read Phillips for regional history. Islamic studies do not apply. I appreciate your comment.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

Who died and left you god to decide what studies do or do not ‘apply’? How are we to understand the region without studying Islam?

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Reldas's avatar

I have to agree that my PhD is basically worthless and I'm teaching at a Houston area community college as proof. However, I understand the Israel/Palestine "conflict" better than anyone wants to give me credit for. Educated, childless, single women are a threat no matter what religion you subscribe to.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

But we go places in life where we never expected and have experiences along the way we’d never trade.

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Reldas's avatar

Thanks. But pleasantries don't excuse genocide. No one has the right to invade a nation and kill the native population. The entire basis for Israeli colonization is an old book written by Bronze Age nomads who didn't know where the sun went at night. It's not complicated.

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Reldas's avatar

I was literally living across the street from Tahrir Square in Cairo, at the American university, when the Egyptian revolution sparked. What a time and place to be as a young American, and to see a sizable plurality of Egyptians fight for freedom, only to be denied by their heavily US backed military who did not want the "chaos and instability of democracy"

We are complete hypocrites.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Correct.

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Different drummer's avatar

I highly recommend Robert Kagan's Atlantic article that Tim mentions at the beginning: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/06/democracy-iran-israel-war-trump/683269/?gift=6ICK1NhO1tuSUNO7V_Ru-pCSmJjIB2he05O6Q8Gqhe8&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share. It provides a chilling perspective I hadn't heard anywhere else when I read it yesterday morning.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

Thanks for the article. I think the writer is spot on — I’m not sure Trump realizes the consequences and potentially, for him, domestic benefits of what he just did.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Oh, screw the Atlantic. Genocidal apologists.

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Different drummer's avatar

So you disagree w/ the premise of the article? I thought it was compelling.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Sorry, no insult was intended.

I am just so furious.

Do you know about Robert Kagan?

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Different drummer's avatar

And I wasn't insulted! You obviously have very strong feelings / opinions about this.

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Different drummer's avatar

His name sounds familiar; that's it. But even if the article was written by AI, I think it makes a lot of sense. I'd love to be convinced otherwise!

(Did you see my question to your comment re Putin? I'm really trying to understand the complexities here.)

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Robert J Danolfo's avatar

Last night I left a comment. This morning I just had another scary thought. Putin has been getting drones from Iran. How can anyone know if he paid for them with a few nukes?

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Kentuckistan's avatar

I've got news for Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth. If Pakistan and North Korea can build a nuclear weapon and put in on a missile or fighter bomber, than Iran can too...this wasn't an event, its the opening salvo of a back and forth for some time

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Kentuckistan's avatar

When we went into Vietnam we were convinced that air power and air mobility, helicopter transport and assault, would control events and destroy a more primitive enemy. Didn't work out that way

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

When we talk about how the “Iranian people deserve better” the hair on the back of my neck stands up. Does no one remember 2003?

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Keith Wresch's avatar

That was 2 decades ago why would our memories go back that far? We’ve purged that to make room for ‘The Real Housewives…l’ and ‘My 90 day Fiancé’. Of course we never talk about how the Saudi people deserve better than their current leadership for ‘reasons’.

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

Right? The Saudis have sponsored way more terrorists than Iran!! The Saudis are responsible for the largest terror attack on America ever. And instead of blowing the House of Saud up to smithereens, our First Family takes bribes from them.

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Erica Paul's avatar

He didn’t go through Congress. That's impeachable. Can the Democrats impeach him?

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Kentuckistan's avatar

nope. you would need 5 or 6 Republican House members and 20 Senators to do that and that's just not going to happen under any circumstance. He could disband Congress by Truth and they wouldn't impeach him

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Nancy Mason's avatar

It just seems like our resistance movement is moving entirely too slow without much result. This is such a tough situation. Isn’t Congress supposed to decide an attack on another country? I am very concerned about # 45 being our president in this situation. He has a significant lack of judgement. Is he speaking from his golf course?

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

Actually, yes. After his return from the course.

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Emmy Elle's avatar

Thanks for doing this. I didn’t catch it until Sunday AM, but I very much appreciate you all being there.

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Dennis Hammer's avatar

Any estimates on civilian casualties?

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Kentuckistan's avatar

none so far

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taxbarbie's avatar

The population of the United States is approximately 332 million people. Of this population, about 75-80% are of voting age (18 years and older).

To estimate:

Total population:** ~332 million

Voting age population (VAP):** approximately 75-80% of total population

Calculating:

75% of 332 million = 0.75 * 332 million ≈ 249 million

80% of 332 million = 0.80 * 332 million ≈ 266 million

Estimated voting age population in the U.S.: roughly 249 to 266 million.

So of the 249 million voting age citizens, 172 million did not support this deranged, dumb, narcissist.

WE HAVE THE POWER. Remember that.

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taxbarbie's avatar

3.5% in sustained protests and a national general strike will help but not if we wait until martial law is declared

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Not in an autocracy, we don't.

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Tina Prygon's avatar

I am extremely worried that Trump will use this as an excuse to crack down on any protests against this attack (or any other protest), declare martial law and suspend elections. I wish I felt like I am being hyperbolic but this allows him to go forward with his authoritarian regime and the Supreme Court will rubber stamp it and sell us all out.

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Bonnie's avatar

Trump's address was so fucking inappropriate. I hate this timeline.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Bush v. Gore broke the TL.

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Divya's avatar

Isn’t there a risk of radioactive waste contaminating the water in the region? I think Rory Stewart talked about this last week (sidebar: he’d be a great guest on The Bulwark).

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Kentuckistan's avatar

yes..low level waste all over the place at these locations

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James Quinn's avatar

When one’s poll numbers are tanking in every area, kill a bunch of Muslims as a distraction.

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Susan's avatar

Same as it ever was.

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Josie Patla's avatar

Now we are cornered. How can we possibly enter into diplomatic negotiations after this? Ugh 😑 No calculation, no risk assessment, no after math planning just shoot and ask questions later! Has it occurred to anyone that materials could be removed and reconstituted? What about retaliation? Where are there cells that can threaten Americans?? I’m with Sarah, how can we trust anything?

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Bonnie's avatar

I would assume that Iran has moved enough materials to create dirty bombs. Fucking great. :(

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windhover's avatar

first time listener to The Chris Hedges Youtube channel.

and just the one video, most recent, called Rule of Idiots.

feel like one, about now.

but while I attempt to think the stunning events- and comments- over,

I have to say Hedges' words reminded me of a book a college professor assigned, a long, long time ago: Noam Chomsky's Necessary Illusions.

I hadn't thought of it for decades.

probably writing this comment in shock and a great deal of sadness and confusion

** what led me to Chris Hedges' channel:

an 'Al Jazeera English' video (also a new channel, for me- I was searching for non U.S. generated news besides NPR's BBC) from early hours today, June 22, "they cooked up their own intelligence"

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

what else is new?

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Don Gates's avatar

Some quick thoughts:

1. Which journalist was accidentally invited in on the Signal chat this time?

2. MAGA will not be 100% on board. You use the American military on blue patches of America, not outside our borders.

3. Did Gabbard lie to Congress about Iran’s nuclear program, or is Trump lying? Congress needs to find out, because Trump went out and potentially went past his presidential powers to start a war based on a lie. Maybe Gabbard wasn't lying then and Trump isn't lying now, and Iran really ramped up nuclear capabilities by 50% in a matter of a couple of months, but Congress needs to find out.

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

I think Tulsi accurately conveyed the consensus of the US intelligence community. But it sounds like Trump was getting alternative intel from Bibi.

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Don Gates's avatar

That’s very plausible. Trump has shown in the past a distrust of US Intelligence and a preference of foreign intelligence, when it suits him, with regard to Putin. Could be the case with Bibi.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

I like where you are going with number 3, but so you think this GOP led congress will lift a finger to scratch the surface of how this went down?

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Don Gates's avatar

It is incredibly important to get to the bottom of it, because it could be an Iraq WMD level scandal, which is precisely why they probably never do it. Maybe it gets investigated in 2027 if Dems win one of the chambers, but by then, this could be memory holed by who knows how many more scandals between now and then. It's vitally important, I think, to figure out what happened here, but Republicans are going to be very reluctant to damage the administration, and I see no way the administration comes out looking good after an honest inquiry into this.

And if they were to investigate, I'd have little confidence in the seriousness of the investigation, and Gabbard is getting scapegoated so she can find out what sort of snakes she's chosen to bed with.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

Agree completely, but the current congress won’t, maybe in 2027, but that seems like an eternity, and what sort of appetite will they have to pick through the smorgasbord of misdeeds to investigate.

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John's avatar

Greenland is treating him so bad! Troops will soon be sent there to restore order.

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Optimistic but concerned in nj's avatar

I shudder at all the antisemites who will call this attack proof of a powerful Jewish cabal that secretly runs the world.

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Mac Smith's avatar

DJT and Bibi are doung their best to uphold this conspiracy theory. Even if they're just two cruel old men helping each other stay out of prison at the expense of the country they were elected to serve and protect. Elected by gullible idiots, I might add.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

It likely will bring out those people, unfortunately. Those running the show aren’t particularly concerned about that. I do fear what is going to come out of the anti-war MAGA movement who lost this battle.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Give it a fucking break, just for one day.

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Optimistic but concerned in nj's avatar

I comment like once a week man. Just let me have this.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Your delusions of persecution are going to destroy what is left of international law, and any moral standing that the United States might have had.

Get the fuck over it, and grow and the fuck up.

It’s NOT antisemitic to oppose Netanyahu drawing the US into another Middle East war to keep him from all accountability for his domestic and international crimes.

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Norman P's avatar

Maybe a minor benefit from this? Iran is going to need all of it's drone production and armaments. Maybe the flow ot those to Russian is curtailed?

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Keith Wresch's avatar

Could be wrong, but I believe the Russians are mostly producing their own drones now.

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Ron Robertson's avatar

I have such mixed feelings about this. I do think that Iran is a threat, and has been for a long time. So is every dictator—a dictator anywhere is a threat to peace everywhere. So, for decades the west has had the moral authority to undermine and do everything possible to eliminate dictatorships. Iran and Russia have been the biggest underminers of peace around the world. To the degree this stops the two of them working together as they have been would likely be a good thing. Morally, we should have supported Ukraine much more strongly, and allowed them to do much more damage to Russia, who has always been a threat not only to all of their neighbours, their people, but also to the world. They have always been a bad actor. So, I do not see this as being a good thing for Russia. It might actually be good for Ukraine, which would be ironic, to say the least. Also, as far as the Middle East being against the US in attacking Iran, I do not believe that will be the case for one major reason. NONE of them trust Iran, and none of them would want the Mullahs to have the ability to threaten them with nuclear weapons, which the Iranians would do. Their goal has been to rule as much of the world as possible. So, I agree with JVL that there is a 30% chance this will actually do good. I'd give it a higher chance, but there is no reason at all to trust this moronic administration with no genuine competency, and equally there is no reason to trust Netanyahu, another evil man. And, I'm dubious that the US has actually accomplished what trump claims, because he always lies, I'd say he prefers to lie, in fact.

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Geir Alstad's avatar

Words cannot express how much i hate Donald Trump and every single American that voted for him. Jonathan Last have said that the us are the bad guys now, this is true. The axis of evil runs through Moscow, Washington and Jerusalem. Fuck you guys.

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LCJ's avatar

No general in that press conference.

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Angela Hock's avatar

JVL, how do you know that there are fervid MAGA who really deeply don’t like Israel?

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Samantha's avatar

Maybe all the swastika tattoos at Trump rallies might be a clue.

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Angela Hock's avatar

Umm hmmm for sure

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Don Gates's avatar

There are a lot of antisemites, Nick Fuentes and Kanye West types, in MAGA. There are a lot of conspiracy theorists in MAGA, too, and it seems like if you dig deep enough into any conspiracy theory, you'll find the Jews. And folks who hate Jews are going to hate Israel, too.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

The right is mostly anti-semitic Zionists.

The left is mostly anti-Zionist, but who love the Jews.

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Samantha's avatar

My most fervent friends against Israel’s genocide in Gaza are Jewish.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Correct.

It is deeply antisemitic to hide the crimes of Zionism behind Judaism.

Not all Jews and Zionists, and most Zionists are not Jews: they’re Christians who want to see the destruction of Judaism so that Jesus can return.

The most dangerous Zionists, like Biden, are not Jewish.

In short, I have seen no evidence that Zionism is compatible with the tenets of Judaism.

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Angela Hock's avatar

I get that about the conspiracies that so often devolve to Jews. Stupid but incredibly dangerous stuff. But I’m still curious what Jonathan knows personally about MAGAites that are very much against what Trump is doing as far as bombing Iran. And for the record, I stand against violence against Jews and pretty much anyone else, and that includes believers not being against the Israeli government’s war against Palestinians. That has nothing to do with how I feel about Jews and everything to do with my opposition to a government’s decision or action.

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Smike's avatar

Yeah I think this is really true to an extent I didn’t realize when I was younger. If someone believes one conspiracy theory they are more likely to believe others if you look at peer reviews studies. And out of all the hatred’s in the world western antisemitism is pretty unique because it’s seemingly ALWAYS got conspiracies theory elements to it. The Jews are always doing…. Something behind the scenes; or so think the looney tunes brigade

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Angela Hock's avatar

Just wait till MAGA sons and daughters have to go into war over this. We’ll see how happy they are with Don

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Parrhizzia's avatar

It will be an honor for them to die to keep Netanyahu in power.

#IsraelFirst

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Angela Hock's avatar

Quite possibly

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LCJ's avatar

A big distraction from his Big Beautiful Bill?

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Angela Hock's avatar

So, it’s ok for us, Israel, India to have nuclear weapons in that area, but not Iran. How on alert do you think N Korea is now? Or Russia? Or any of the other nuclear countries

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Countries with nuclear weapons are always on alert.

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Angela Hock's avatar

True that

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Michael Rubin's avatar

Prepare for trump to get a bump in popularity but it might be short-lived.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Not sure.

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Michael Rubin's avatar

Not sure about the bump? or not sure it will be short-lived.?

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Sooo ... I think all Republicans will love the killing of brown Muslims, I think all the 'bros' will love the use of big bombs that go bang, I think liberal Zionists will love killing people for Israel, and I think there will also be a bit of a rally around the flag.

Sooo ... 2005 Iraq War level? That sort of slow decay? But I think it is a net positive in 2028 for Trump. It gives Trump an accomplishment and a club to bash Democrats "why do you love the terrorists and hate the troops".

But ... again ... not sure.

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Susan's avatar

I am old enough to remember the beginning of the Iraq war, and how those of us who opposed it were so vehemently demonized. I can't believe we're doing this again.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Sister, me too.

I can't believe we're doing it again. I'd tell you to watch MSNBC, CNN and the NYT to see which way they swing, but, I can't tell you to watch them in good conscience.

I think Democrats will support the attack as much as Republicans. Hillary 2003 support.

There will be the obvious attacks on progressives as usual for "criticisng the commander in chief during a time of war", yada, yada, yada.

An interesting insight will be the NYC Primary. If it's a big swing to Cuomo, then it's going to get REALLY bad.

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Michael Rubin's avatar

While I do not totally agree with all of the characterizations, you provide a very Good analysis.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

I think the test will be if support drops precipitously when Americans start dying for Israel.

I think that will cause an even STRONGER rally around the flag for some, but others may not ... you know ... the antisemites.

The price of gas will probably go up ... not sure how long Trump can distract from that ... at least a year I suspect.

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Michael Rubin's avatar

Not sure if Americans will die.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Well, one thing is for certain: we'll be home by Christmas!

That's right, fight! Let the Yankees be the ones to ask for peace! The situation's very simple: the Yankees can't fight, and we can! It won't even be a battle! That's what! I think they'll just turn and run every time! One Southerner can lick 20 Yankees! Why, will finish him in one battle! Gentlemen can always fight better than rabble!

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

ranting.

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Angela Hock's avatar

Iran isn’t going to play the game of going after US military sites. They’ll go after civilians. Us.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Why not both?

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Angela Hock's avatar

Quite likely

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marc laplante's avatar

Americans sing a national anthem about their resilence, with a flag flying despite “bombs bursting in air”…

And then expect the immediate capitulation of any other proud people once they drop said bombs on them.

Wars are ridiculously easy to start, because it only takes one nation to do so.

They are much harder to end.

Good luck, America.

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Robert Ward's avatar

The antiwar sentiment among MAGA is born out of the concept of don’t waste money on foreigners. Quick bombing wins with massive foreign casualties demonstrating American superiority is welcomed with open arms amongst Trump supporters. Trumps single defining doctrine is whatever makes Trump look powerful…

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Different drummer's avatar

I think you're spot on.

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BetsyC1219's avatar

I am 100% with Sarah on this. IF this has to happen, which it doesn’t, the last guy I would want calling the shots is 47. He WANTS to be a wartime potus. He’s craving it! Because it will take attention off the laundry list of the other bs he’s created.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Don't worry, 47 isn't calling the shots.

US President Netanyahu is.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

you write as if you're 3 feet tall. Think.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Give it a break for one day, OK?

We're going to war with Iran in order to keep Netanyahu in power and for him to avoid all accountability for his domestic and international crimes.

Thousands will die before this is over, including Americans, and so many innocents. All for your beloved genocidaire.

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Steve Beckwith's avatar

This piece is excellent analysis.

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Steve Beckwith's avatar

The only reason MAGA is even talking about not getting involved in Iran is a holdover from their attacks on Biden for Afghanistan. They just got in the habit of saying it's bad to spend money on other countries but there's not really any geopolitical theory behind it and it will disappear like a puff of smoke in the wind.

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Ponygirl923's avatar

The influencers will ride with Trump. The progressives that hate voted for him will split with him because they used to be fucking progressives.

This feels obvious.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Do you think Harris would NOT have bombed Iran yesterday?

How many Democrats in Congress do you think AREN'T going to vote to give Trump a war powers resolution so that Americans can fight and die for Israel?

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Steve Beckwith's avatar

What, me worry?

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Roz Wrottesley's avatar

Thanks again to the Bulwark for being so quick off the mark with the video - can always rely on you for the first response. Sometimes being far away on the southern-most tip of Africa (Cape Town) seems like a good idea, and this is one of those times.

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Ponygirl923's avatar

It's not a nickname, it's a slogan. "Razin Caine" is like America first but for this one guy because Trump is that fucking juvenile. The saddest part is that it works.

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Francine Harrison's avatar

Not only was this unconstitutional but from a World perspective Trump has broken many international agreements by taking part in these bombings. Bibi perfectly manipulated Trump and he is too narcissistic to see it.

Such a great deflection for both of them. Bibi on Gaza and Trump on internal US unpopular politics.

The rest of the world now has to scramble to get our people out of the Middle East as we can all see this escalating quickly.

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James LoMonaco's avatar

We’re led by s shallow, soulless man whose judgement is eroding with age. Surrounded by incompetent cos players who lack the depth of judgement and understanding to manage complex circumstances, circumstances that they have created.

Don’t think for a moment that Iran doesn’t have trucks and didn’t move lots of this stuff elsewhere.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

you mean, moving the stuff under the mountain?

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Counterpoint: we're led by Netanyahu.

Led by the nose.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

I guess Netanyahu is VERRY TALLLL and eats Wheaties.

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Jan Dorsett's avatar

WE’RE not. HE is. PINO has no coherent thoughts in his head. He looked weak last night when he read Steve Miller’s speech—shaky voice, gasping for air. Perhaps this rash act will do him in. Let it be so.

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Suzanne's avatar

If you think Iran will just sit back and take this, you’re being silly. I can see a world in which Iran starts messing with the oil tankers, as the Canadian news suggested, creating chaos in oil supply. They still have the ability.

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Suzanne's avatar

Maga will go with whatever Trump does. Remember what he said about 5th Avenue?

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Debra K's avatar

Trump “saved Iran” in the same way he “saved” LA. Meaning he invaded both for his own ego and both invasions are a dangerous abuse of power.

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Suzanne's avatar

How is this “strike” ok without the consent of Congress?

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Debra K's avatar

Hey Tim, I deserve better leadership but it’s not cool for Iran to bomb America. And there was NO threat to America from Iran. Trump’s bombing is unwarranted, illegal, and capricious. The rest of the world should shun the US. We are a rogue nation.

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Mac Smith's avatar

The only reason/goal of this war is to keep Bibi Netanyahu in power/out of jail. Good job electing Trump, your world peace president. You've been had, my American friends, now good luck with the fallout.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

Yes, Bibi wants to stay in power but he’s also implementing his vision of the Middle East. Basically Israel is the junkyard pit bull who has military control of the region backed by US money and military supplies. The Saudis and gulf states get a pass as long as they keep the oil flowing, but if not then you still have the pit bull on standby.

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Mac Smith's avatar

Fuck I hate to be right

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Mara's avatar

Please, Bulwark, take the right stand, don't shilly shally out of fear of appearing antisemitic. I need to hear your clear voice.

Starting hostilities with Iran, whether the bombing was successful or not, was wrong. There was no imminent threat to our allies from nuclear weapons that, at this time, do not exist.

There are moral considerations. Netanyahu is a bad man responsible for actions in Gaza that are impossible for decent people to condone. He is cruel and motivated by selfish aims. In fact, he is much like our own president, only smarter.

Recognizing that Israel under Netanyahu is "on the wrong track", a bad actor, does not make anyone anti-Israel and much less an antisemite. Just as recognizing that America under Trump is engaged in evil activities doesn't make you anti-American or, I guess, anti-Christian.

Please, Bulwark, don't outsource your morals to those who want to define you for their own purposes.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

Netanyahu keeps getting taller. This, now, is even funnier.

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David M.'s avatar

Good rapid reaction by you guys; comment section, not so much (well, a mixed bag). From the U.S. standpoint, I think the biggest danger is that an ongoing armed conflict between the U.S. and Iran--at any level--will almost surely be used, legally or not, to justify giving Trump enhanced powers. And things were more than bad enough already, but this will make it tougher for courts to constrain him from declaring innumerable "national security emergencies" that can be used to justify just about anything. And unless the Iranians AND their innumerable proxies and agents EVERYWHERE in the world completely refrain from ANY retaliatory actions--a highly unlikely scenario--the (potentially legal) justification will actually exist. Bad, bad news, even if the Iranian nuclear sites were indeed "completely obliterated" (an obvious absurdity.) Israel's campaign against Iran is likely to continue for months, and that means we too will be along for the ride for at least that long.

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Suzanne's avatar

If his Big Bill passes, it will make it almost impossible for the courts to stop him doing anything.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

The Courts can't stop him now.

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

I didn't hear Trump threatening to escalate unilaterally. I heard him telling Iran that his only goal was to terminate the Iranian nuclear program, and that goal is now achieved, so the US will not need to engage in further hostilities unless Iran initiates a new round of attacks against US interests.

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

I’ve always been curious, why do Iranians chant “Death to America”?

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

Because the Iranian regime is led by revolutionary fanatics who encourage their supporters to shout that slogan - and who, more importantly, punish anyone who expresses opposition to that revolutionary ideology. Only about 20% of the population, at this point, is willing to shout, "Death to America." The rest will be disappointed that Trump is not willing to pursue regime change.

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Suzanne's avatar

Yes, it’s just so normal for a country to arbitrarily go and bomb another country and then threaten them with annihilation if they retaliate and don’t sign a nuclear deal.

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

"Arbitrarily"? Not at all. And there has been no threat to "annihilate" Iran.

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Suzanne's avatar

There was definitely a threat by 47 to annihilate them if they retaliated. Try to keep up. Dam this place is getting too much like TwitterX. Too many maga trolls.

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Debra K's avatar

That strikes me as absurd. The US bombed them for no reason and continues to threaten them. Iran will likely retaliate and no one in the world will blame them.

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

"For no reason". The Iranian regime has been the world's leading state sponsor of terror for decades, and it is committed to obliterating Israel. Keeping such a regime from obtaining a nuclear weapon is a pretty good reason. Whether this action will facilitate that goal is another question.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

Iran has long been threatening the entire region. To think otherwise, is to create yet another fantastic cop-action series.

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Marshall's avatar

Iran not having nukes is a good thing.

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Mac Smith's avatar

No country in the Middle East should have nukes.

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Suzanne's avatar

Pakistan having nukes is not a good thing. According to all intel, Iran did not have nuclear weapon capacity. They did want to have nuclear power, as in electricity, which their nuclear program was for.

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Debra K's avatar

Which is why Obama and other nations had an anti-nuclear treaty with Iran. Trump pulled out of it for one reason—his tiny petty ego couldn’t stand that Obama did it. Trump is a clear and present danger.

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Marcus's avatar

How about if we agree that no country having nukes is a good thing? Nukes have only been used twice in war, and the country that did that has 5000 nukes.

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Marshall's avatar

I'm not interested in "both sides"ing this one, sorry.

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Debra K's avatar

You’re right. There’s only one side. Trump/America attacked another nation with no justification.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

pulling one justification from the air is as good as pulling another.

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Marcus's avatar

Yes, so am I.

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Susan Paulo's avatar

I too agree with Sarah. I don’t trust Trump’s judgement in light of his and others hubris.

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Cynical Pragmatist's avatar

I despise Trump, but I don't hate the bombing of their nuclear facilities because they have been a source of terrorism around the world. However, with all things in the middle east, there are always unintended consequences. I don't like that it looks like we are doing Israel's bidding, when they have handled the Gaza situation so poorly.

If the Iranians respond in a significant way, Trump owns all of it. Deaths of American service members at bases in the middle east, terrorist attacks in the U.S., etc. All of these should be considered as the result of Trump administration decisions.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

It doesn't LOOK like we are doing Israel's bidding.

We ARE doing Israel's bidding.

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KC's avatar
7dEdited

And so, a week after his dull birthday parade, Trump had to put that failure right and show 'his' military might - in passing turning himself into a war criminal (*).

(*)=under article 51 of the UN charter, states are allowed to use force to defend themselves from an armed attack. International law experts argue the charter does not provide a broader right to preemptive attacks. US’ reported strikes on Iranian nuclear sites were thus illegal under international law. (Apart from the attacks not having been approved by the US Congress)

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Lalla Ward's avatar

It might not have been an imminent national security risk before, but it surely is now?

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Vicki's avatar

Something totally missed is that the Trump Administration did not notify the top Democrats yet they did notify the GOP. No more "Gang of Eight"???

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E.K. Hornbeck's avatar

I believe Trump will be going after "Weapons of Mass Destruction" next.

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Four Quartets's avatar

Perusing the comments -- "we are Israel's bitch"; military action is always bad; I'm so ashamed to be an American; the JCPOA was working just fine; we should have gotten UN approval, Haliburton is happy tonight, etc., etc. -- does not speak well for the tutelage that The BulwarK has offered its "community."

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Carolyn Phipps's avatar

Then please do enlighten us poor schmoes. The "community" will thank you.

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Fatima's avatar

Bibi's continue his aggression and keep sucking the precious resources out of the American people and keep damaging American people's interests and keep slaughtering innocent people in the region. This is the most likely outcome of this aggression.

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Leanne DALTON SANTOS's avatar

Holy fuck.

I'm sorry but wasn't there a thing called the JCPOA that Trump ripped up?

So now, he's been lead by the balls into Israel's war. 😳😵‍💫😡

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

he has none.

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Carol O'Riordan's avatar

I am interested to see what happens with the United Nations. Even George Bush sought UN approval and allies before he went to war. It appears this time the only ally is Israel right now. As a European my initial view is that this is a totally illegal aggressive action where America has no argument that it was under threat and it gives other countries an excuse to step back and not provide full throated support to America. Will it be US alone, except maybe the UK after this? I am finding it hard to believe that Canada for example will stand with the US on this, whereas they probably would have before and I think they won’t be the only ones.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

We are Israel's ally, but Israel is NOT our ally.

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Shanny P's avatar

Well, crap. I guess it feels good to (at least) be in good company in my despair.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

I'm genuinely curious to find out how this affects Zohran Mamdani's poll numbers.

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Matthew's avatar

I’m a Jewish dem who despises Trump, but I also think it’s important to separate disdain for him from what just transpired. By all accounts, Iran was severely weakened before this strike. Not just militarily, but their proxies and their allies as well. The risk that stopped an attack like this (Russia, strong Iran military capabilities, hezbollah, Hamas) are diminished, making this what I seem to see as an opportune time for doing something that is a good for the free world. Of course there is risk with this type of dramatic action, there is no doubt about that. But there is also risk to inaction and to not take advantage of the reality we find ourselves in.

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

You are justifying a strategic decision with tactical considerations. All the tactical factors you list should play into the timing of an attack, but I'm not convinced they are sufficient by themselves to justify the attack.

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Matthew's avatar

Fair, but I think they are related in some ways. I think the reason we hadn’t done it before is because of the tactical considerations I listed and the much more potent threat Iran posed at the time. Given that it was an opportune time and that Iran can’t respond as they theoretically would have given those considerations still relevant, I am of the opinion we were right to do this but that’s subjective so I understand if people disagree.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

* By all accounts, Iran was severely weakened by massive violations of international law before this strike.

How do you see this playing out? I'm genuinely curious. I think we can agree that Israel, or its proxy, the United States, will decapitate "The Mullahs".

What happens then? A Jeffersonian Democracy breaks out?

Tell me, please.

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Robert Ward's avatar

With regard to the Jeffersonian Democracy: do you mean in America?

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LAC's avatar

A pre-emptive strike is not justified...might doesn't make right regardless of an 'opportunity'...the hard work of negotiation and diplomacy are called for to give the best outcomes for the next generations on either side. Just bombing...because you can...shows who are the true barbarians. The door has been opened to Putin and Xi to claim self defense as an excuse for anything they do...The world thought better of the US and Israel...sad...

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Parrhizzia's avatar

LOL.

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Matthew's avatar

I’m endorsing my support for the destruction of Irans nuclear program, I’m not sure why people wouldn’t. You seem to be dismayed not due to the reality of what happened, but the future hypotheticals scenarios you think will happen. Regime change or a ground invasion I would not support, but that doesn’t mean it conflicts with my support for this.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

The reality of what happened?

What do you think just happened?

Let me ask you - if China decided to strike our nuclear facilities, would you expect us to retaliate? If not, why not?

If yes, how?

You think this is "one and done"?

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Matthew's avatar

Your analogy is flawed in more ways than one but most obviously, Iran could not, even in their wildist death to America dreams, come close to providing the same response as America would. Iran has no serious capacity to respond militarily (because they have no IRGC leadership, seriously diminished weapon capability, an out of date Air Force, and no nuclear weapon) these reasons are precisicley why this was the right thing to do and the right time to do it. Maybe the Ayotollah had a trick up his sleeve from the bunker he’s cowering away in, but I find that unlikely.

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LAC's avatar

your response is again the short term thinking that got the world into 8 years of havoc in Iraq based on short term thinking 'mission accomplished' mentality...doesn't anyone like learn from history?! The amount of deaths of innocent Iraqis is lost on you..and that is just one example. The NATO allies were then drawn into Afganistán.

The proud Iranian/ Persian people are not going to capitulate after they have been bombed in a pre-emptive strike...no one trusts the US or Israel for their barbarism...the US no longer has the forthright educated first world leadership it once embodied

....now just another bully.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

A small technical point.

We didn't bomb Iran as "pre-emptive strike", but rather a "preventative strike".

There is a technical difference ... and the former is legal under international law, but the latter is not (look at me pretending that international law is still a thing).

If Iran HAD a nuclear weapon and was threatening to use it, or making active moves to use it, then we could, legally, pre-emptively strike that weapon ... and ONLY that weapon.

However, Iran did not even have the material, let alone the weapon, so the bombing and assassinations were preventative, which is WILDLY illegal.

But again ... who cares?

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LAC's avatar

Yes agree - but the word 'preventative' can sound like a justification anyway, which is troubling because you could argue in the public domain that any action taken is preventative ....also yes I overstated Israel as a democracy - of course it isn't and wasn't - but it was once respected because it held elections and had an elected body rather than a King in a region of tyrants...but that doesn't mean it is a democracy for all the people granted! My bad!

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Matthew's avatar

I just have trouble with this short term long term argument because I’m not sure what long term consequence could be worse than Iran having a bomb. I get that you’re reflexively against war and violence, but Iran is now effectively kneecapped and they were unable to provide a strong response even against Israel. I think you overestimate them even still even when they have been exposed

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LAC's avatar

How did we get here? Because after 2 hard years of efforts, 5 nations working on it, the UN endorsement, the JCPOA agreement was devised that was working well, Iran was being monitored and complying.Then simply because of his own ego (to cancel anything Obama worked on) and from Netanyahu's insistence against the deal (as it took away his enemy foil excuse), Trump ripped up the JCPOA. He has no patience for the hard work at actually getting a deal...he thinks an agreement at gunpoint is a deal...again short term thinking...building alliances, diplomacy with carrot and stick are the ways to solve complex problems not bullying tactics so the world turns against you! Israel was once a beacon of democracy in the Middle East, now the world is turning against them due to their depravity. My god man, learn some history and stop being a sheep led by two ego-led crazies trying to distract from their own failings!

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Parrhizzia's avatar

When was "Israel a beacon of democracy in the Middle East"?

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Matthew's avatar

Looks like a reliable video and account! Good try though dude sorry you’re so upset :)

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Chandu's avatar

Once the guy is dead, everyone loses their interest and go home. That is what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. The same thing will happen to Iran. All this love on the normal Iranians is for the cameras and the show.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

"Once the guy is dead, everyone loses their interest and go home. That is what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq."

You have a very different memory of the Iraq War and it's aftermath than I do.

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Chandu's avatar

I meant to say eventually not immediately. They lose interest when the Iranians don’t love the puppets they install in the name of democracy

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Rosemarie Tishelman's avatar

Trump loves “God”? Netanyahu, Trump, and Iran all love or fear their different gods while MEN do all the damage.

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Dale Brewster's avatar

You guys make me sick. If Trump didn’t hit Iran, you would accuse him of abandoning Israel and Trump AlwAys Chickens Out. This attack on Iran is 45 years overdue. No President until Trump had the balls to carry this out. The world is now a much safer place. Go fuck yourself. Let the hate comments begin.

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

Ahh all the chicken hawk neocons are out in full force today.

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Mac Smith's avatar

If you think the world is now a safer place (for Americans) than 48h ago, you haven't been paying attention. Good luck.

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Livia Genise's avatar

Are you old enough to remember that Iran was a Democracy til we installed the Shah? Or that we had a deal under the Black guy that this Felon tore up? Or that Netanyahu has been lying about how ‘close’ Iran is to a nuclear bomb (weeks away) since 1995? Wake up!!!

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Tim Miller's avatar

Accusing trump of abandoning Israel doesn’t sound like me at all actually! I have maintained a very consistent uncertainty about this action for weeks now and had discussions with people who have views on both sides. Don’t think it’s a clear call and don’t trust trump to do anything is a very rational view IMO and not at all close to what you are implying here.

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Four Quartets's avatar

I agree completely and also admire your courage for going against the grain on this site, where the great majority of the comments literally hope that all this fails. Which I find shameful. I understand "Never Trump." But I also understand "Never Again."

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

I’m curious what you were doing between 2001 and 2021.

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Dale Brewster's avatar

And by the way that goes for all of those douche bags on the right…Tucker Carlson, Tulsi Gabbard, the Federalist. This is exactly what BILL KRISTOL WANTED. Like I said go fuck yourselves. Hypocrites

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

Relax, Babe.

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Shari K's avatar

Don't forget the far left extremists, Bernie Sanders, the Squad...

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Timothy Brownlee's avatar

I think Bebe wanted the three sites in Iran to be taken out and the U.S. was the only resource for that. So, this week, Bebe was the last person to talk to Trump and he needled Trump until he agreed to the bombing: “Donald, you’re a tough guy. You’re tough, right? So, show everyone how tough you are!”

And after a couple of calls, Trump took the bait and agreed. There was no plan, as usual… just today’s whim.

Well, here we are. No idea exactly what he meant in the brief, earlier statement. He probably didn’t know either. Just make it sound tough and menacing, for now.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

sure. "Donald, you're a tough guy..." Bibi, not Bebe. This hypothesis is just too silly. Tramp's money mafia is playing us like a rusty violin.

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Shanny P's avatar

I’m hating being an American right now.

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Elizabeth Anne Jones's avatar

Thank you for your comments.

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John H's avatar

Since it appears that folks are adding requests ... I would have requested that the Bulwark crew acknowledge _ more directly, and assertively_ the fact, that Trump, relishes the power of being able to kill people. I whole heartedly believe there is enough evidence on the _public record_ that would support my assertion.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

Trump is an attention whore who hasn’t been getting the love he craves lately, and he saw Netanyahu getting praise and acclaim for his actions in Iran and he wants a piece of that.

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Michael's avatar

Netanyahu is a flawed man and flawed leader but to call him evil is way over the top. As much as I hate giving him credit for anything, Pres Trump absolutely did the right thing. I wish it had been Pres Harris or Biden who could have taken credit for taking out Iran's nuclear program, but it was not to be. It absolutely is in our national security interest to ensure Iran does not get the bomb--that is conventional and a bipartisan U.S. foreign policy position, so I am confused by Tim's comment.

Eliot and Eric disagree with our trio and both agreed the U.S. should take out Fordo while Iran is in a weakened state. The JCPOA was hopelessly flawed and even if it had been adhered to, would have resulted in Iran eventually getting the bomb or certainly close enough to having one they could engage in nuclear blackmail against the U.S. and Israel like Putin is doing in Ukraine. Would that be good?

Lastly, as Ann Applebaum as written, there is an axis of authoritarians which includes North Korea, Russia, China and Iran. At least now we have struck a significant blow against one of the four. I hope we push Russia out of Ukraine as well (remains to be seen).

Israel is not sending troops to Iran for regime change and neither is the U.S. but they both want the Iranian regime to fear for their lives so they think twice about striking back in an escalatory manner.

Israel has not been murdering civilians in Gaza--sad to hear that said here. They have been pursuing Hamas which has been hiding in tunnels and Israel has done it's best to destroy the genocidal army on its border.

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/emergency-podcast-the-israel-iran

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Different drummer's avatar

I'm largely ignorant about the Middle East, so am still learning and forming an opinion. But I just listened to a This American Life pod you might find interesting: "859: Chaos Graph," from 4/27. Act I is about the experiences of multiple American doctors who worked in Gaza.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

Probably not easy listening, but thanks for the suggestion. I will have to look it up.

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Different drummer's avatar

It's not, but it is just one small piece of the picture. I'd be curious what you think.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

So I listened to the piece and it’s definitely disturbing, though I guess shouldn’t be surprised. I’ve pretty much known the Israeli military units get to behave pretty much as they want and it’s up to their commanders to enforce or not enforce the rules. I was shocked about the direct gun shots to the head particularly in the small children.

If you are interested the Guardian has a sporadic diary written by a Gazan resident which ended in March of 2024, but it was also hauntingly bleak, but also full of life.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/series/gaza-diary

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Michael's avatar

Boy have you come to the right place.

Here ae some suggestions:

Call Me Back Podcasts with Dan Senor. There are a lot but I might suggest the one with Brett McGurk who was among the lead negotiatios in the Biden Admin trying to get the hostages out. McGurk puts the blame for no hostage deal squarely on the shoulders of Hamas and describes how the campus protest in the U.S. and pressure from the West (including the Biden Admin) only caused Hamas to dig in its heals further

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jGLlNQMRP4&list=PLiYCxMRIBxFp0V4ZazFmxsdWLCL8Lw-Sy&index=7&t=102s

Ask Haviv Anything. Far fewer and if you want to understand the perspective of Israelis, I cannot recommend these podcasts enough. Since there are not many, I would suggest at the first podcast

https://www.youtube.com/@AskHavivAnything

Couple more with Haviv on other folks podcasts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aFbNJALXBw&list=PL0QqDLM7Mfuv6Zkh9gNZstVepRQxr-Tzv&index=46&t=2s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pj9-YG_vXY&t=2656s

On last one on Gaza specifically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWeno1zEc0E&list=PL0QqDLM7Mfuv6Zkh9gNZstVepRQxr-Tzv&index=36

Would love to hear your thoughts after you listen to some of these.

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Different drummer's avatar

Thank you! People are so passionate on every side of this issue. Sometime after 10/7, I heard Obama being interviewed about the ME. I don't recall the specific question that elicited this response, but Obama said the dynamics are incredibly complex. I do know that they literally go back thousands of years, and it's overwhelming to me.

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Fatima's avatar

STOP YOUR LIES!!

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Fatima's avatar

He is the biggest evil in the world.

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Chandu's avatar

Is it enough to stop with Iran? why don't the USA take out the other adversaries also? Netanyahu and IDF are killing civilians like crazy in Israel right now. There are a minimum of 100 Palestinians killed in the last 10 days while they were going for food bank to get food. Not every muslim is a Hamas terrorist.

Just like Iran is not very close to getting a nuclear bomb. Netanyahu has been saying the same thing since the last 10-12 years.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/16/gaza-food-centre-shooting-israel-ghf

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/dozens-more-people-killed-or-injured-seeking-desperately-needed-aid-in-gaza

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/18/israeli-forces-kill-injure-palestinians-food-trucks-gaza-officials

The actual axis of evil right now - in this moment - are Israel, USA and Russia. USA and Israel have unilaterally started a war against Iran on flimsy grounds. Russia did the same with Ukraine.

USA and Israel are in fascistic hands while Putin is treating Russia like his personal Empire. Just like Germany, Italy and Japan were in 1939.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

YEAH! GET THOSE JEWS!!!

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Chandu's avatar

Netanyahu played the same WMD bluff game with Iraq in 2003.

https://www.c-span.org/clip/house-committee/user-clip-netanyahu-says-no-question-saddam-working-on-nuclear-weapons/4927483

His entire play is to sling mud on the opponent and bring out the big ‘antisemite’ card whenever the other person tries to respond and shouts through the roof so that all his minions can come and shout the same thing. His defence minister is so far right that had he not been a Jew, people would have mistaken him for a neo Nazi.

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Sylvia Street's avatar

Sincere thanks to the three of you for stepping up to do a live broadcast on a Saturday evening to discuss Drumpf’s shocker announcement.

Want to share with you and fellow listeners some brilliant comments made this evening by Karim Sadjadpour, a scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, quoted by The New Yorker’s David Remnick. As I listened to you, I had one piece of what he expressed, swirling in my head—I.e., that Drumpf saw an opportunity to either steal from or share with BB the spotlight in an historic moment that might—if the ploy worked—bring about regime change in Iran. Sadjadpour rounded out my half-baked thought—and so much more, in ways that I hadn’t even considered. A taste follows, along with the link.

“Trump came to the Presidency with a Nixon-goes-to-China idea where Iran is concerned,” Sadjadpour said. “He wanted to build hotels there. And now he has dropped a thirty-thousand-pound bomb. He was frustrated that he hadn’t solved Gaza or Ukraine. The nuclear deal that Obama worked out with Iran and the rest, the J.C.P.O.A., was a two-year-long negotiation. He had no patience for that. And when Khamenei wasn’t agreeing to his terms very quickly, and when he encountered Netanyahu’s persistence and Khamenei’s resistance, he changed. The morning after the Israeli invasion, Trump wanted to associate himself with that success. He didn’t want Netanyahu alone to have a Churchill moment. He wants to be remembered for destroying nuclear facilities. But it means the next President will be faced with the same challenge.”

Here is the entire article: https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-lede/donald-trump-bombs-iran-and-america-waits

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Rosemarie Tishelman's avatar

Facts!

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Parrhizzia's avatar

On 21 November 2024, following an investigation of war crimes and crimes against humanity, the International Criminal Court (ICC) issued arrest warrants for two senior Israeli officials, including Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel.

Imagine if we had done "the right thing" and handed him over to be prosecuted. How much different the last 6 months would have been.

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Chandu's avatar

The very good America has started another never ending war. 😀 All hail Israel. 😀

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Four Quartets's avatar

JVL seems hopeful that the nuclear sites were NOT "totally and completely obliterated."

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Oh, so many more Marines will die for Israel yet.

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Four Quartets's avatar

You must be part of the Tucker Carlson tag team. You, Tucker, Candace....

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Yes, opposing US Marines dying to keep Netanyahu in power IS antisemitic.

You got me.

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Four Quartets's avatar

You sound just brilliant ! Such sublime analysis.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

You're welcome.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Who will be the first Democrat to say "we must stand with the troops?"

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CarolineMaybe's avatar

The fact that Israel was saying trumps name would be in gold in history sickens me. He got played.

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Marcus's avatar

Thanks, Sarah, JVL, and Tim, for your service.

Vietnam Vet and have known the Trump Org since the 80s. Pay attention now! Trump will always betray his partner or prey. Period! Don't waste your time trying to understand the reason. The attack tonight on Iran betrayed his MAGA base. Think about that-he betrayed his base. He betrayed the country and the Government on 1/6/21 and every day since. And what person in his life has he not betrayed?

Now we have to pay attention! He now has an Army, idiots in his Cabinet, and a smart, evil man in Netanyahu to guide him into a US war against Netanyahu's enemies. And Trump will betray him, and he will betray all of us.

Btw, there are no "free shots" with Trump. His Army will cost Israel approvals for his condos and the Gaza Golf Resort. (Sorry, to be more cynical than my friends above, but did I mention I was a Vietnam Vet?). I've seen this play before, and my heart and sympathy go out to all of the innocent citizens in both countries who don't deserve to be bombed and terrorized by these three crazy leaders of their countries. Indeed, "Good Luck America!"

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HistProf's avatar

It occurred to me that most of my adult life has involved waves of US wars in the Middle East. I remember when H. W. Bush initiated the bombing of Iraq in 1991 and Operation Desert Storm. More than a decade later, George W. Bush invaded Iraq which led to the 8 year 8 month long Iraq War. We also had the Afghaniaram War layered on top from 2001-2021. And now we may be going to war with Iran in 2025.

Are we trapped in another Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos situation?

Like Sarah, I have zero trust in Trump, Rubio, and Hegseth's ability to manage a war, let alone keep us safe at home and abroad. I may have been opposed to the previous Middle Eastern wars, particularly W's morally questionable disaster, but at least I knew that professional military leaders were involved. Trump has kicked out many career admirals and generals since he took office. We are so screwed if this escalates.

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Marcus's avatar

In answer to your question, the Middle East wars for the US don't feel similar to the Cambodia/Laos/Vietnam/Thai wars for the US. We had a massive multi-disciplinary military presence in SE Asia, as well as a quasi-military (Air America) presence in Laos and the hairy border areas. We don't have as much ground presence in the ME, but unlike SE Asia, where we boogied out of there when the mission ended, we don't ever seem to want to end the mission in the Middle East. It's time to review that strategy.

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Marcus's avatar

I'm just that much older than you, my friend, that I recall the 6-Day Middle East War in '67 and the Yom Kippur War of '73 in the Middle East as I was in the Army on the Thai/Laotian border in '73. Also, I have some bad news on that escalation thing- it already happened when we dropped bombs on a foreign country with whom we had not declared war!

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HistProf's avatar

Yes, I'm Gen X but I know the Middle East has long been a simmering problem before my own political consciousness. And for sure the bomb has escalated the situation but when (if) troops are sent in to support Bibi, then we are really off to the races. I don't have high hopes Trump will consult Congress on that front either.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

It's remarkable just how casually we violate the Geneva Convention and other international humanitarian laws.

Laws which WE most wrote. And most of those laws were written by Jewish Americans.

All torn down for the benefit of Israel.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

JEW, JEW, JEW, JEW. Automatic pilot.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Don't worry, neither Trump, Rubio or Hegseth will manage the war.

US President Netanyahu will.

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Cindy's avatar

Holy f**k. The laws of unintended consequences are now in effect.

And no one in this government knows what the intended consequences are or were.

So we are just forked.

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Mac Smith's avatar

You were the moment he came down the golden escalator.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

This was intended, not unintended.

Just by Netanyahu.

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Cindy's avatar

Yes. But unintended consequences still matter. A lot.

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LAC's avatar

and the Gazans continue to suffer daily...another distraction.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

They matter to you, perhaps.

But the purpose of this attack is to create chaos. Netanyahu survives, THRIVES during chaos.

If the chaos, killing and death ended, so would Netanyahu's political career and very possibly his freedom.

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kerreee's avatar

And his reason for living

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Yup.

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Ruthanne Roussel's avatar

I disagree with asking Hegseth to show up at 8 am for anything.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Has an article ever aged so badly, so quickly as this article?

I mean ... this is Ross Douthat level of wrongness.

The important thing is that we NOT learn the lessons of Iraq and Afghanistan!

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/we-cant-let-history-blind-us-to-our-options-iran-israel-war?r=3hh94p&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Why would ANYBODY with two neurons to rub together think that this is a "win" for the Iranian people?

Seriously?

You think the Iranian people are going to break out a Jeffersonian Democracy?

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Suzanne's avatar
7dEdited

In the 1970’s, Iran was a fairly normal country. The U.S. installed a puppet for the oil. They didn’t like that. Then the current theocracy took hold & changed things completely. The people there just might want a democracy. Do you know any Iranians? I do.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

I think I see your problem: you think Iranians are going to have self-determination after Israel kills the current Iranian leadership.

A Jeffersonian democracy is going to break out? Maybe Netanyahu, riding an Israeli tank through the streets of Tehran, will be greeted as a liberator?

No. Don’t you know? Israel LOATHES people having self determination.

There’s going to be massive domestic and foreign fighting - all after Iran’s natural resources and control of the Straight of Hormuz.

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Suzanne's avatar

Geeez. Seriously? You’re bonkers. And kind of an ass. My thought was never say never.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

I'm so old, I remember the phrase "Democracy in a box".

Anyone else remember that?

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Monica in SoCal's avatar

Thank you all for doing this tonight. Maybe the only good thing about the news is that I'm a Bulwark+ member. 🫠

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Robert J Danolfo's avatar

Sarah, JVL&Tim, Thanks for the up to the minute reporting, commentary and analysis. JVL says free shot and that sounds like something in Trump's & Hegseth's wheelhouse. Tim was quick to point out how easily they backed Bibi's play but did everything they could to hamper Ukraine's defense. Evidently, Trump has no fear of the Iran regime but does when comes to his buddy Putin. Sarah has the Maga and political consequences sized up pretty well. I guess the balls in the Ali's court. He has named his successor. You think he chose a dove or a viper? My belief is that Iran regime's hatred of Israel and the west (code word for America) is real and just got exponentially deeper and the prospect for retribution will be likewise. If that happens all bets will be off. Like you all said, you would feel a little more assured if there were some competent people around. Sadly, I don't believe there are. I always get a bad feeling when Trump talks of God.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Putin is SO happy tonight!!!

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Different drummer's avatar

I'm mostly ignorant about ME dynamics, so am in the process of trying to understand the players, histories, etc. I'm a little more knowledgeable about Russia, and my first thought after the announcement of the bombings was, "How will Putin react?"

I thought he was buddies w/ Iran, and that they supplied him w/ weapons, so he would be upset. But I'm obviously missing something. I've seen very little in the news about Putin in re to this, so would you explain to me (like I'm a 10-year-old) why Putin would like this? Is it merely that it takes the attention off of him?

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Keith Wresch's avatar

I’m not sure Putin is that happy. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t want regime change in Iran, and he’s still dealing with the fallout from Assad being deposed in Syria. If he wasn’t involved in Ukraine we’d probably have a better idea of where he stands.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Putin is overjoyed - what could be better for him personally than the US entering ANOTHER Middle East war?

The price of oil will skyrocket if Iran closes the straight of Hormuz - that’s money in his pocket.

Perhaps Germany comes back to him for their oil, breaking European support for Ukraine.

The US attention will turn towards the Middle East and away from Ukraine.

But mostly he just loves watching the US humiliate and embarrass itself on the world stage.

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Kelly Hughes's avatar

I appreciate Sarah commenting that bibi has murdered ‘millions’ of civilians in Gaza. It seems like Gaza is ignored mostly here so I appreciate the acknowledgment.

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Shari K's avatar
7dEdited

Sarah has no clue about what goes on in Gaza; none of us do because Hamas controls everything, including the news and data that is given to the press! So many Americans and Europeans believe the propaganda BS that Hamas spews out and the media just eats it up like it is truth! It's not!! Gazans - many - HATE Hamas and have tried to protest, but are tortured or killed. I don't know how many times people have to repeat it, but Hamas uses human shields and puts their weapons under civilian buildings, including hospitals, schools, and apartments!! How do you compete with that!? Israel has done more to avoid killing innocents than any other country, EVER!! Hamas+ Hezbollah + Houthis + more = Iran - they have to be stopped! I'm not a big Bibi fan and I hate DJT, but Israel is doing what it HAS to do!!! If we had 1,200+ people slaughtered, burned, murdered in barbaric fashion, do you think we would do nothing!? Not to mention the hostages, that ARE STILL THERE!! People are quick to forget about them. Also, what about the REAL genocide going on in Sudan and other countries? Where's the outrage about them! Sorry, but when Sarah said that about Israel and Gaza, it really lit a fire under me. I'm Jewish and Israel is my homeland by default. If it disappears, I have no where to go if Jews are thrown out of America, too. The fundamentalist progressives on the left who are anti-Israel have ruined the Democratic party!! IMHO

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Conor Gallogly's avatar

It’s fair to say that anti-Semitism plays some role in why so many in America and around the world focus on Israeli human rights violations more than other countries. There is no mass movement to divest from Saudi Arabia for example.

It’s also fair to remember that the United States started wars with two countries responding to 9/11 and killed many civilians in the process. Plus the drone strikes throughout the region. Of course Israel would respond viciously to the 10/7 attacks.

And while Israeli holds immense power relative to the Palestinians, it’s important to note that Iran and its proxies do legitimately threaten Israel.

That said, Israel has gone far beyond any moral bonds in Gaza or the West Bank. Killing first responders and burying the bodies and ambulances is a war crime. Netanyahu has shown no interest in peace and little interest in getting back the hostages.

Netanyahu is also not a reliable source for intelligence on Iran’s nuclear aspirations. If he was, Iran would have had nukes a decade ago.

This strike might work out because Iran is so weak. But it might also encourage every future dictator to race to nukes so that they are protected like the North Koreans have been instead of smashed like we’ve done to Iran. It may also encourage other non-dictators like the Taiwanese government to develop their own nuclear shield.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

you mean, NOT automatic pilot? Thanks, Shari.

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taxbarbie's avatar

All genocide is bad. If you are scared of losing your homeland, why is that more important than Palestinian’s losing theirs? Maybe Bibi should stop the settlers from encroaching on their land? Stop with the double standards.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

Read Melanie Phillips. Focus on history.

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Keith Wresch's avatar

You mean the lady who accused Barack Obama of being in the ‘Islamist camp’? That Melanie Phillips.

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

Do you need a ride down to the recruiting center? How about your kids? What were you doing from 2001 to 2021?

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Sally O’Brien's avatar

Why would Jews be thrown out of America? Donald Trump hates you but he uses you as an excuse for just about everything. And Netanyahu is a bully and dictator. He had been investigated so many times by Israel. No one likes Hamas but no most Israelis don’t like Bibi either -and now he has manipulated our weak dumb President into doing his dirty work for him.

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Myrna Greenfield's avatar

I'm amazed at how powerful Netanyahu is. And that, dear friends, is how history is rewritten.

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Fatima's avatar

When will you open your eyes?

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Michael's avatar

Thank you for saying so. I was shocked she said that but as Sarah has acknowledged, foreign policy is not her strong suite. As Brett McGurk says in this interview (he was involved with the hostage negotiations) when westerners repeat Hamas propaganda, it only encourages Hamas to dig in further.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jGLlNQMRP4

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

When are YOU enlisting?

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CarolineMaybe's avatar

Israel have their military near civilians too. I’m sorry but what Israel is doing is literally ethnic cleansing. If they can kill one general in bed why have they blown up ever building in Gaza? Legit question.

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Shari K's avatar

BULLSHIT

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

Wow, what a profound and cogent response!!

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Shari K's avatar

Sorry, it was 1:30am where I am and I had just had enough! thx

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Parrhizzia's avatar

I got in trouble for saying that.

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CarolineMaybe's avatar

I’m expecting it too.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Solidarity.

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Lynn T's avatar
7dEdited

Thanks for coming on and providing some context as we hear about this disturbing development. It helps to hear some of my own fears discussed and to know we’re not alone in this. Please take care of yourselves too.

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John H's avatar

I am just starting the post, but I wish it had not included the president's speech. I'll just scroll ahead to the Bulwark discussion. Trump has ABSOLUTELY no moral authority as a "leader" and human being and how dare he invoke the name of God.. And standing behind him are a trio of absolute punks.

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Claudia johnson's avatar

I just skipped past that part.

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Sheila Prosterman's avatar

He seems to always invoke God. My dear christians he says and I just cringe and scream inside my brain at the same time. And that quote, the whole thing he said was; My dear Christians in 4 years we will have it fixed so well you will never have to vote again. If that doesn't terrify you, nothing will.

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Monica in SoCal's avatar

Yeah, I had to keep clicking the time bar until he stopped showing up.

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Karen Z's avatar

Me, too!!!

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Rick Alley's avatar

"Donald Trump is a weak man pretending to be strong. He is a small man pretending to be big." — Former Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger

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meryl selig's avatar

Antidote to failed military parade. Mushroom man felt a twinge of testosterone too

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Jayne Docherty's avatar

Adam loses credibility when he goes rah rah on the attack

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Karen Z's avatar

Exactly that.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Platitudes.

Only B-2 bombers count.

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E.K. Hornbeck's avatar

Iran claims that the sites weren't majorly damaged and that in any case they'd moved their nuclear material.

Now who's lying? It's a tough call!

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Timothy Brownlee's avatar

Trump said that the three sites were obliterated, but I don’t believe anything he says. Someone wrote that down for him 15 minutes before he read the news release.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Y’all think this is gonna split the MAGA coalition?

Nope. Every single MAGA voice will come home.

But this IS going to split the Democratic coalition.

In a couple of days, or maybe weeks, when things REALLY kick off, AIPAC will force a vote in Congress to support this “war”.

My guess is more Democrats will vote FOR it than Republicans.

Every 22 years, neocons get their wish. But guys, this is THE big one!

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ERIC STENCLIK's avatar

First--how do we know any of the information or intelligence we're getting is accurate? Second,

why did the U.S. have to do this when Israel could have done it?

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robley mericle's avatar

Isreal has been trying to get U.S, involved for years.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Correct.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

The US has permanent downward looking satellites over Iran. If a puff of nuclear material came out of the hole, they know they got it.

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Shari K's avatar

Israel, actually, does not have the capability the U.S. does to obliterate any sites that are deep underground.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Sure it does.

Netanyahu just gives the command to the US military, rather than the Israeli military.

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Shari K's avatar

True

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Alexandra Barcus's avatar

Regime change in Iran may be desirable, but is that up to us and not the Iranians.

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Alexandra Barcus's avatar

I agree with Tim completely.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Who is THE most ecstatic person tonight?

Netanyahu?

Putin?

Xi?

Every board member of Halliburton?

Anyone got eyes on Bill Kristol? Just make sure he stays hydrated, OK?

#LifelongDreamUnlocked

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max skinner's avatar

So will the Marines now standing around in the Los Angeles area be moved back to base to prep for possible deployment outside the US? Sorry ICE guys you won't have Marines "protecting" you?

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Parrhizzia's avatar

US Marines will stand wherever their Commander-in-Chief, President Netanyahu, tells them to stand.

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Rich Wingerter's avatar

Peaceniks in MAGA are in a tough spot. Imagine you are a young guy who voted for Trump. Welcome to the Army, sucker! Now get down there and give me 100 pushups!

Every young guy who voted for Trump needs to find a young woman who voted for Harris and get right down on his knees and apologize. In fact, face grovelling would not be too much.

Before the MPs drag the guy away for his stint in Iran.

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SassyCuz's avatar

He seems out of breath. More lies and exaggerations I wonder.

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Casey Leedom's avatar

I think that "Thought Experiment" that Tim should have broached would be the comparison of Iran versus North Korea. Trying to compare with Ukraine brings in Russia which has Nuclear Capabilities to attack the U.S.

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Rich Wingerter's avatar

Iran brings in Russia. Oops!

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Parrhizzia's avatar

More likely Russia will try to take a bite out of Iran.

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Seth Kaplowitz's avatar

Trump came to rescue Netanyahu to lock down his right to develop Gaza in the future. Don’t be fooled.

This was a Trump mission not one authorized by congress. There was no reason to believe that Iran was on the verge of enriching uranium for warhead capability. Trump needed to look strong and as per usual created an emergency made a decision that he thought would boost his damaged image and lock down the rights to Gaza in one fell swoop.

Let’s see what the recon damage assessments have to say.

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Seth Kaplowitz's avatar

Yes, true, but DT saw that Israel was ‘winning’ and jumped on taking credit for the original attacks by Israel. He is not a peacemaker. He says he is. He is just a bully beating up and threatening everyone to make himself feel strong.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

This was an Israel mission.

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Rich Wingerter's avatar

Well, it's not just the end of JD Vance's career. Being with Trump is toxic for anyone. It totally ended Bublio's chances of ever being President. He's decided, apparently, that Secretary of State is a fine high point for his career, and he has no higher aspirations. After this administration (so called) none of the participants will be welcome in Washington again. The American people will terminate any attempts at a comeback for any of them. Their favorability ratings are now capped at 40% or less.

So, JD Vance can kiss his presidential aspirations good-bye, just like the rest of them. Once in the basket of deplorables, you are forever deplorable.

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meryl selig's avatar

Says who? Hillary?

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Rich Wingerter's avatar

Says the polls, which have Mr. Trump in the tank. And, we haven't even seen the depths of the damage he's done. Wait until his recession takes hold. It should peak about the time of next year's mid-terms.

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SassyCuz's avatar

Usually when a country is at war their leaders approval level is high. Could be?

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Parrhizzia's avatar

His poll numbers are high where it counts: Tel Aviv.

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dan fox's avatar

This may be entirely a function of trump responding to his TACO nickname. Now he can say he did not chicken out and that he is a tough guy. Regardless, it is an example of trump seeming to change positions.

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Colleen Kochivar-Baker's avatar

I live in Helena Mt and this has been my worst fear for a sleeper terrorist cell attacking the US. You would have to live out here to truly understand how easy this could happen without 24/7 Homeland Security surveillance. If such a thing exists, it's very secret. Oh by the way, I've also fished in Hauser, Holter, and Fort Peck. These reservoirs are huge and deep and pretty narrow.

This scenario is very real and nothing 'like the world would have seen in many many decades.'

https://futuristspeaker.com/futurist-thomas-frey-insights/the-canyon-ferry-disaster-how-a-single-event-can-reshape-a-nation/

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Brett F.'s avatar

There is a non-zero chance of this spiraling out of control. What's the upside? Why didnt he just let Israel do it? America has a lot of soft targets.

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CarolineMaybe's avatar

I think he got played. There were billboards in Israel telling trump to end it. Literally that’s what they said.

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Brett F.'s avatar

Bibi played him for sure but Trump used the opportunity to destroy the 🌮 meme. He's still got his instincts. A careful politician would have let Israel do it. Trump's a gambler.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Why should Israel spend THEIR blood and treasure when they can spend OUR blood and treasure?

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Maxine Milner Krugman's avatar

Don’t you think Iran and their subs will retaliate against Israel? You make it sound as if they will get off Scott free. Only Bibi will coast.

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Maxine Milner Krugman's avatar

I guess no one got your memo.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

It wasn't Israel who bombed their nuclear sites.

It was us.

Why waste missiles on Israel, who has the ability to knock 90% of them out of the air, when they can target American military in Middle East bases who can't?

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Maxine Milner Krugman's avatar

Iran has to punish Israel, missiles or not. Yes, our troops are in danger.

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Rich Wingerter's avatar

Well, Sarah. Criminal Trump is a cardboard character. You can't expect anything deep with him.

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C.goresist's avatar

“how is this our fucking life”? - enough said🤦🏽‍♀️

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bitchybitchybitchy's avatar

We are at war. That is pretty damn scary.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

It will get MUCH scarier once Iranian regime change is complete. Then the oceans of blood will be unlocked.

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max skinner's avatar

So what will the retaliation be? There are American bases and military personnel in the Middle East. Targets all.

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

Iranian proxies have already launched a few drones at US military installations, but they were all shot down.

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Lily who reads The Bulwark's avatar

I don’t know why the risk of terrorist attacks doesn’t occur to people anymore. It’s like we learned nothing from 9/11. This doesn’t even require a vivid imagination, just a basic level of long term memory.

We have incompetent fools in charge of the NSA and DoD. Kristi Noem is too busy blowing her budget on sending migrants to foreign torture prisons, cosplay photo ops, and hair extensions. All the capable people have been fired and the remaining few have been reduced to a skeleton crew. Our allies no longer trust us and are not sharing intelligence with us. Iran CAN absolutely attack us on our own soil—just not the way being discussed.

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Mara's avatar

I've also been wondering why no one has mentioned that retaliation is likely to take the form of terrorist attacks.

For Europe, where I live, there is some comfort in the fact that Trump has thrown the continent overboard, so it might not be the immediate target of such attacks.

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Lily who reads The Bulwark's avatar

I do not anticipate any activity in Europe unless our former allies provide us with material support. That seems highly unlikely under the present circumstances. I don’t even know what kind of support could be given.

But an attack or series of attacks on US soil seems inevitable, and given that we have a petty malignant narcissist in charge and 100 sycophantic co-narcissists enabling him, I could foresee the Trump admin knowing full and well that a terrorist attack is imminent and allowing it to happen because odds are 10-to-1 that such an attack will occur in a blue state.

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meryl selig's avatar

Mara: I think you are right. No reason for pro Iranian agent to retaliate in Europe. But we are crazier beyond imagination if we think nothing bad will happen in US after this bombing

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Lily! Learn from 9/11? That's CRAZY talk! Didn't you read this article, published by the Bulwark, only yesterday???

Learning from past mistakes is for LOSERS. This time is going to be different!

I can't wait for the photos of liberated Iranian women throwing their hijabs under the tracks of Israeli tanks rolling through the streets of Tehran!

FREEDOM!!!

https://www.thebulwark.com/p/we-cant-let-history-blind-us-to-our-options-iran-israel-war

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Parrhizzia's avatar

The MOST moral country!

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Rich Wingerter's avatar

As soon as the negative consequences show up, I'm going to insist Criminal Trump retire in disgrace and go away.

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meryl selig's avatar

You are insisting? Sounds powerful

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Andrew's avatar

The U.S. has no legal authority to bomb Iran and enter this war, full stop. There is no justifiable case. We can all go home now.

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Mac Smith's avatar

When has that ever stopped the US from attacking someone, and when have their been repercussions for the commanders in chief?

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Andrew's avatar

It’s never stopped us before, but that doesn’t make it ok. That’s my point.

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BetsyC1219's avatar

Point

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matt_ahrens's avatar

If Iran is no longer a threat to Israel, why should Israel keep Netanyahu in power? His job is done now, right?

(cross-posting from my comment on YouTube since JVL said Bulwark members who view everything on that platform don't matter ;-) )

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Have you heard of “Greater Israel”?

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Maxine Milner Krugman's avatar

Oh please, agenda much?

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Parrhizzia's avatar

My agenda? Or the far-right Israeli government's agenda?

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Maxine Milner Krugman's avatar

Bibi and his crew, but not most Israelis any more than Americans except Maga and end of times folks.

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Rabbi Jacob Herber's avatar

Tim Miller, the Iranians don’t want regime change in Israel. They want to wipe Israel from the world.

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Tim Miller's avatar

unclear what this is in response to but i have no illusions about Iran and said several times in this video that I understand Israel’s rationale for action i’m just less convinced about America’s.

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Rabbi Jacob Herber's avatar

You implied that the administration’s aim is regime change, while you were unsure whether Israel shared that goal (Min 3:38). Yediot Aharanot’s Nadav Eyal, who has extensive relationships within the Israeli military and political establishments, reported to CNN’s Fareed Zakaria this morning that no one in those echelons has that as a goal of the operation or sees it as a likely outcome. Btw, it should be noted that the overwhelming number of Israel’s citizens and its political leaders across the political spectrum support the Israeli government’s decision to launch this military campaign, despite how they feel about Bibi Netanyahu. For Israelis, this isn’t “Bibi’s War,” it’s “Israel’s War, because they understand what an Iran with a nuclear bomb(s) and the ballistic missiles with which to launch them means.

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Tim Miller's avatar

bibi last week said he wanted regime change i apologize for taking them at their word

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Rabbi Jacob Herber's avatar

Look, I am no Bibi fan. I wish his was not the government. He should pay the consequences for the disastrous security failure of Oct 7th. And at the same time, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. And, he did not say that regime change was an objective of the operation. He said it could be a possible outcome. But I understand that nuance in the highly polarized political world in which we currently live has very little currency or relevance. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/netanyahu-says-regime-change-in-iran-could-be-result-of-israels-attacks/ar-AA1GKYML?ocid=BingNewsSerp

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Rabbi Jacob Herber's avatar

Instead of having a respectful, rational debate you refuse to accept the facts and respond with ad hominems. How dare you mock my son’s service.

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

When America undertook regime change in Iraq, a country that fired missiles into Israel, where was Israel?

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Rabbi Jacob Herber's avatar

DOING EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE TOLD TO DO.

“[As for] the problem of keeping Israel out of the war, there were few things the President and his top aides worried about more,” explained one White House advisor in retrospect. 3   The U.S. decision to side-line and restrain Israel was successful due to a balanced strategy of positive and negative inducements. It was carefully crafted and executed by President George Bush and his most senior advisors. 4

MERIA: Friendly Restraint: U.S.-Israel Relations During the Gulf Crisis of 1990-1991

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

Ahhh sooo we have already fought in one regime change war for Israel and now we will fight another one? And Rabbi, where were YOU from 2001 to 2021? Because I was busy bringing home the bodies of dead American men and women.

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Rabbi Jacob Herber's avatar

No Sympathy, No Charity or whatever your name is . . . I thank you for your service. I’m an ACS USCG Chaplain and my son is a U.S. Sailor. I take military service very seriously, and I know what it means to serve one’s country. I suggest you’re engaging in revisionist history. Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm were launched in response to Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait. Operation Iraqi Freedom was launched by George W. Bush as Part II of Desert Storm, to remove Saddam.

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No Sympathy, No Charity's avatar

It was launched to remove Saddam under false pretenses. Much like this attack on Iran. Again, after Iraq launched SCUDS at Israel in 91, when America went in 2003, where was Israel? Sitting on its ass. Now we are going to head to war again for Israel? Ahh yes, sailors, famously at risk in land wars in SW Asia. Must be nice to advocate for all of this while having NO SKIN in the game whatsoever.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

That's insufficient reason to violate the Geneva Convention, a bunch of international humanitarian law, and start a conflict that will make the Iraq War look like a picnic.

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Jennifer Watson's avatar

I'm scared. I have no confidence whatsoever in our president an his top officials. This was about as unthoughtful and unserious an address to the American people as I can imagine. He's putting thousands of lives here and in the Middle East at risk.

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max skinner's avatar

"We love you God"? Trump seemed a little nervous.

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Karen Z's avatar

I am pretty sure Trump is the anti-Christ. I don’t think God loves him.

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CarolineMaybe's avatar

Huckabee and the rest keep telling him god saved him to save the world. Not surprised he partly believes them with his ego.

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Peter McCarthy's avatar

Felt he was shitting in his pants.

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Sarah LaSpisa's avatar

Also, did it look like some sort of dementia episode?

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Hillary BT's avatar

Trump does not have dementia. He is a narcissistic psychopath. His mental disorder is galaxies more prevalent and dangerous than any aging issues he has and attributing his actions to dementia only serves to minimize his inherent psychopathy.

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Sarah LaSpisa's avatar

I think he’s a narcissistic psychopath with dementia. Which makes it even worse.

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max skinner's avatar

Not to me. It's kind of late at night, who knows what's been going on all day. He seemed tired and like I said, nervous.

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Sarah LaSpisa's avatar

I kinda don’t think it was his choice. The Christian nationalists - Russ Vought etc. - I think that’s why MAGA is so splintered

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Audrey's avatar

As I am listening to the beginning of month long neighborhood fireworks season and thinking about bombs going off, and maybe all of our holidays disappearing like migrants in the night, it seems like a good time to reference the Onion.

https://theonion.com/fritolaysia-cuts-off-chiplomatic-relations-with-snakist-1819568143/

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TBD's avatar
7dEdited

We have always had the ability to bomb Iran into oblivion. What is the point of this? What now?

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

Iran is a very big country. Unless we use nukes, we don't have the ability to bomb it into oblivion. And we're not going to use nukes.

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Karen Z's avatar

Because of the successful No Kings rallies last Saturday, the horrible clips of ICE, some pushback on the “Big Beautiful Bill”. All a distraction and ego boost for Trump.

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Parrhizzia's avatar

Because Israel.

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Danielle's avatar

All immigrants could dress like clergy to go to their immigration hearing.

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0:50
briefly here while we wait for the president of the United States to inform the world about his big, beautiful bombing mission. And, uh, I don't know, like, uh, Tim, Sarah, initial thoughts?