it's not a strawman at all. That poster is using the exact same language people used against Black people and gay people. You can pretend it's a strawman, but it's not.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. How dare you insinuate that I'm racist and anti-gay simply because I don't subscribe to your "religion." You know nothing about me, and your contempt and ignorance perfectly exemplifies what I'm talking about.
This is the inherent problem: you assumed they think you’re a racist homophobe because they’re making a crass, trolling comment. You respond in kind. They jump on that and go “see, you’re denying it and being defensive so it’s true”. It’s so infuriating watching you talk past each other.
The reality is: both sides moved the goalposts, but the right wing has far more political power. Left has cultural power, but little widespread political power outside of major urban areas.
There’s no true powerful “left wing” political party in America (lol no democrats are not socialists). There’s definitely an authoritarian party with widespread state power, now that the GOP gave up fully on democracy.
Ignore the idiot lefties trying to Twitter diss people (yes they’re a problem but they won’t cause a constitutional crisis) pay attention to states where politicians are passing draconian bills.
I think reasonable people can disagree on the issue of trans women competing in certain women’s athletic events. That doesn’t mean it’s I’ll will on anyone’s part. It’s hard to argue that years of male hormones don’t have a lasting impact even after being suppressed for awhile. The Penn swimmer showed that pretty convincingly this year. I’m very sympathetic to their desire to be treated as any other women are, but cis women can be at a disadvantage. I don’t think this is a very common issue at all, and shouldn’t be an issue in recreational sports, but in elite competition I think it’s more complicated. For example, if Caitlyn Jenner had transitioned at a younger age, I don’t think other women would have stood much of a chance against her in track & field. This is generally a pretty respectful forum so I’d encourage people not to assume the worst unless it’s clear that someone is acting with malice.
Maybe, but that would have been ridiculous. Ale puberty makes one taller, broader shouldered, etc. I’m only talking about elite competition, and not passing laws to incite public outrage. It’s a sport by sport kind of issue, and I’m for allowing as much access as is reasonable. I’m just not sure I’d want to be a female basketball player playing against someone like a (theoretical) trans LeBron James. Hopefully that doesn’t make me a horrible human being.
You think cis men are going to fake being women to play pro women's sports? You do realize that a cis man good enough to play in the WNBA or the NASL could earn for more playing in man men's leagues.
I wasn’t referring to faking anything, but someone that is mediocre in a mens league could be dominant in a women’s league after transitioning. Richard Ruskin was a mid 40’s amateur tennis player as a man, but as Renee Richard’s was able to compete on the women’s pro circuit at 49 years of age. Similar for the Penn swimmer. I really don’t think it’s controversial to most that male puberty provides some physical advantages that don’t go away with hormone suppression. I’m not sure why you think this is so bigoted.
Your attitude perfectly exemplifies that first cartoon. You're talking to liberals who aren't remotely hostile to your position, but you're treating their disinclination to accept what you're saying without question or comment as an attack.
I'm not transphobic, but I'm also not blind. I'm nowhere close to an elite athlete (and I'm 5'7", 50, and not especially fit) but if the internet is to be believed I can bench press nearly 100 pounds more than 6'8", 207# Brittney Griner. She's an elite athlete and I'm a couch potato, but I'm by far the stronger of the two of us.
The US women's national soccer team is among the best of the best, but as skilled as they are when they play elite U-16 boys teams they lose badly. They're better at soccer, but the boys are way too fast. The female players can exceed the boys' skill and knowledge, but not match their speed and strength.
These are facts, not opinions, yet you're asking people to set them aside and accept your position that any trans female has the right to compete in any women's sport? Fun position you're putting folks in. If they support the female athletes saying they think it's unfair then they're transphobic, but if they explain why they think it's fair for trans females to play in their league then uh-oh, now they're mansplaining. Either way they end up being the asshole, even if they're broadly sympathetic to trans people in every other way and believe that women are 100% equal to men.
It was mean-spirited because he is correct that prefacing an opinion with "I think" is very common, and he never claimed his comment was anything other than opinion.. However, "just an opinion" is a bad faith tactic for dismissing as opinion without making any attempt to dispute it. He cited the Penn swimmer to support his opinion. What do have to support your dispute?
He also stated he has no problem with everyone playing together recreationally, but wonders about elite sports citing Jenner. You could make an effort to answer the implied question instead of mean-spiritedly bringing up his daughter.
Strawman. Neither he not I have characterized what he said as anything other than opinion. The new context into which you put his comment about his daughter was mean-spirited.
Fact: In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.
You’re trying awfully hard to pick fights. There’s absolutely nothing I’ve said to indicate that in any way. My people (Jewish) have been considered of lesser value by many over history, but I try not to let that impact every discussion I have.
How is that bad faith? Those exact same arguments were sued to justify racism. It's factually accurate. If that makes you uncomfortable, perhaps you need to ask yourself why.
It is not the "exact same argument", and if you are going to hurl accusations of racism, then nobody is going to take what you say seriously. You seem to be the only one here looking for a fight, rather than seeking to understand
Is the concern about fairness in women's sports legitimate? If not, why don't you explain data supporting the assertion that there is no difference between FAAB and MAAB women in sports in terms of outcomes. Or provide something to the discussion other than calling people bigots. Picking fights like this is not helping trans women nor does it advance the discussion. It's just trying to score points.
You have identified the implied assertion in his comments. I am curious as to why the fairness of MAAB and FAAB men in sports in terms of outcomes is not similarly questioned in society. What unexamined assumption is in play here?
Not to beat the trope into the ground, but the reality of the current left is a whole lot of white folks pretending to speak for BIPOC groups. How about we let those folks speak for themselves? Latino folks are not running around calling themselves "latinx". Black folks made it very clear they were behind the mainstream liberal Dems like Biden and Clyburn and Shontel Brown, but the progressive left wants to label those same liberal Dems as racists or Uncle Toms
I've never been on Twitter. My congressman and the Dems in my area seem pretty reasonable. As a matter of fact, my Republican friends are reasonable and get along with my friends who are Democrats. But then, we're not a bunch of a-holes.
Black Democrats have been supporting moderate liberal to conservative Democratic politicians for 50 plus years. For whatever reason white liberals and their paid tv talking heads (looking at you Joy Reid) just cannot seem to understand why a black person in Atlanta, Houston or Prince Georges County MD give Elizabeth Warren the "side eye" when hear talk about free college and wealth taxes. In the experience of most black people, they end up paying for these things without getting any of the benefits.
The white liberal's biggest problem has been and always will be that they don't actually know many black people and the few that they do know they probably don't talk to. If they did, they would know that what black people really want is not to defund the police, but to have police patrol the streets in their neighborhoods and work with them to stop crime; they would like to call 9-11 and have cops show up in less than 2 hours; they would like to go to schools that are properly funded; they would like to have policies that help them start businesses so that they can build wealth for their communities; and they would like the government to protect them from attacks on their rights by state and local governments. In other words, they want what everyone else in the US wants, and has benefitted from since at least WWII: basic, run of the mill liberalism that was once the purview of the GOP before 1964, and is now (still?) the ideology of the Democratic Party, at least since 1960. They do not want a revolution, or redistribution program or anything else (reparations is not withstanding, which means different things to different people).
There's a patronizing savior-complex among some white leftists, making them unable to see that people of other races have the same rational ability to choose differing political views that white people do.
That was pretty unfair. I understand exactly what you mean. I’m a New England liberal but my 20 something daughter sometimes has rules about what can be said that baffle me.
Sometimes peoples opinions are hard to understand, particularly with a 30+ year age difference. We actually agree on virtually all political issues. It’s just that people in their 20s are more attuned to subtleties of language than when I was that age, even as a Boston liberal. I’m not making some major statement here. I think you’re reading too much into this.
Agree with this. I recently got together with a fellow middle aged gay I hadn't seen since college and we marveled at the granularity of identities that are meaningful to college students today. It was funny - we felt like such radicals back in the 90s coming out as gay. Kids today just yawn at that, which, in fairness, is the world we hoped we were creating back then.
How dare Black people or gay people want to be treated as human beings!
Wow. This was totally unnecessary.
That is a strawman response. Nothing about her expressed views implies she holds that opinion about blacks or gays.
it's not a strawman at all. That poster is using the exact same language people used against Black people and gay people. You can pretend it's a strawman, but it's not.
What "exact same" language is that precisely?
Ya know, I think they call that a strawman, one of Rush Limbaughs favorite tactics.
Rush who??
You think wrong.
nope
This is exactly what I'm talking about. How dare you insinuate that I'm racist and anti-gay simply because I don't subscribe to your "religion." You know nothing about me, and your contempt and ignorance perfectly exemplifies what I'm talking about.
This is the inherent problem: you assumed they think you’re a racist homophobe because they’re making a crass, trolling comment. You respond in kind. They jump on that and go “see, you’re denying it and being defensive so it’s true”. It’s so infuriating watching you talk past each other.
The reality is: both sides moved the goalposts, but the right wing has far more political power. Left has cultural power, but little widespread political power outside of major urban areas.
There’s no true powerful “left wing” political party in America (lol no democrats are not socialists). There’s definitely an authoritarian party with widespread state power, now that the GOP gave up fully on democracy.
Ignore the idiot lefties trying to Twitter diss people (yes they’re a problem but they won’t cause a constitutional crisis) pay attention to states where politicians are passing draconian bills.
I don't think he was referring to you as a centrist. Anti gay and racist is a far right viewpoint.
I know that you think some women shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sports. That is why I hold you in contempt
I think reasonable people can disagree on the issue of trans women competing in certain women’s athletic events. That doesn’t mean it’s I’ll will on anyone’s part. It’s hard to argue that years of male hormones don’t have a lasting impact even after being suppressed for awhile. The Penn swimmer showed that pretty convincingly this year. I’m very sympathetic to their desire to be treated as any other women are, but cis women can be at a disadvantage. I don’t think this is a very common issue at all, and shouldn’t be an issue in recreational sports, but in elite competition I think it’s more complicated. For example, if Caitlyn Jenner had transitioned at a younger age, I don’t think other women would have stood much of a chance against her in track & field. This is generally a pretty respectful forum so I’d encourage people not to assume the worst unless it’s clear that someone is acting with malice.
A similar comment could have been made about barring Black athletes from sports 100 years ago.
Well...no, not intelligently...
Maybe, but that would have been ridiculous. Ale puberty makes one taller, broader shouldered, etc. I’m only talking about elite competition, and not passing laws to incite public outrage. It’s a sport by sport kind of issue, and I’m for allowing as much access as is reasonable. I’m just not sure I’d want to be a female basketball player playing against someone like a (theoretical) trans LeBron James. Hopefully that doesn’t make me a horrible human being.
You think cis men are going to fake being women to play pro women's sports? You do realize that a cis man good enough to play in the WNBA or the NASL could earn for more playing in man men's leagues.
I wasn’t referring to faking anything, but someone that is mediocre in a mens league could be dominant in a women’s league after transitioning. Richard Ruskin was a mid 40’s amateur tennis player as a man, but as Renee Richard’s was able to compete on the women’s pro circuit at 49 years of age. Similar for the Penn swimmer. I really don’t think it’s controversial to most that male puberty provides some physical advantages that don’t go away with hormone suppression. I’m not sure why you think this is so bigoted.
People argued that science proved white supremacy for centuries.
Your attitude perfectly exemplifies that first cartoon. You're talking to liberals who aren't remotely hostile to your position, but you're treating their disinclination to accept what you're saying without question or comment as an attack.
I'm not transphobic, but I'm also not blind. I'm nowhere close to an elite athlete (and I'm 5'7", 50, and not especially fit) but if the internet is to be believed I can bench press nearly 100 pounds more than 6'8", 207# Brittney Griner. She's an elite athlete and I'm a couch potato, but I'm by far the stronger of the two of us.
The US women's national soccer team is among the best of the best, but as skilled as they are when they play elite U-16 boys teams they lose badly. They're better at soccer, but the boys are way too fast. The female players can exceed the boys' skill and knowledge, but not match their speed and strength.
These are facts, not opinions, yet you're asking people to set them aside and accept your position that any trans female has the right to compete in any women's sport? Fun position you're putting folks in. If they support the female athletes saying they think it's unfair then they're transphobic, but if they explain why they think it's fair for trans females to play in their league then uh-oh, now they're mansplaining. Either way they end up being the asshole, even if they're broadly sympathetic to trans people in every other way and believe that women are 100% equal to men.
Lighten up.
To paraphrase Mona Charen, the dogmatism of trans politics needs to slow down and wait for the nuance of trans science. https://www.thebulwark.com/trans-politics-needs-to-slow-down-and-wait-for-trans-science/ There are legitimate questions that science still needs to answer. In addition, science needs to answer these questions by first discarding unexamined assumptions, like "hardwiring" as explained here: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2021.608328/full Tbhis Harvard links has a collection of links for further study: https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/
You're not supporting women athletes if you deny all women the chance to compete. It's pretty simple to grasp that.
They were wrong.
That was mean-spirited. Most of us have just an opinion, including you.
It was mean-spirited because he is correct that prefacing an opinion with "I think" is very common, and he never claimed his comment was anything other than opinion.. However, "just an opinion" is a bad faith tactic for dismissing as opinion without making any attempt to dispute it. He cited the Penn swimmer to support his opinion. What do have to support your dispute?
He also stated he has no problem with everyone playing together recreationally, but wonders about elite sports citing Jenner. You could make an effort to answer the implied question instead of mean-spiritedly bringing up his daughter.
Strawman. Neither he not I have characterized what he said as anything other than opinion. The new context into which you put his comment about his daughter was mean-spirited.
Fact: In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.
Saying “I think” is a normal way to present an opinion.
So why are your opinions, which are so fiercely held, better than anyone else's? Because they're yours?
I never implied otherwise.
I know you think you are morally superior to people who disagree with you. The contempt is very mutual.
I think you’re being treated pretty unfairly here, for what it’s worth.
How? They are making the exact same arguments that people made to justify racism
You're the exact kind of person who argued that my family in "biologically inferior" to white people.
You’re trying awfully hard to pick fights. There’s absolutely nothing I’ve said to indicate that in any way. My people (Jewish) have been considered of lesser value by many over history, but I try not to let that impact every discussion I have.
If you don't want to discuss in good faith, then just don't comment
How is that bad faith? Those exact same arguments were sued to justify racism. It's factually accurate. If that makes you uncomfortable, perhaps you need to ask yourself why.
It is not the "exact same argument", and if you are going to hurl accusations of racism, then nobody is going to take what you say seriously. You seem to be the only one here looking for a fight, rather than seeking to understand
There's not much to understand about people wanting to treat some women as less than other women. It's rank bigotry
Is the concern about fairness in women's sports legitimate? If not, why don't you explain data supporting the assertion that there is no difference between FAAB and MAAB women in sports in terms of outcomes. Or provide something to the discussion other than calling people bigots. Picking fights like this is not helping trans women nor does it advance the discussion. It's just trying to score points.
You have identified the implied assertion in his comments. I am curious as to why the fairness of MAAB and FAAB men in sports in terms of outcomes is not similarly questioned in society. What unexamined assumption is in play here?
Denying all women access to something is about fairness and it is bigoted to deny women access based on how they were born.
Not to beat the trope into the ground, but the reality of the current left is a whole lot of white folks pretending to speak for BIPOC groups. How about we let those folks speak for themselves? Latino folks are not running around calling themselves "latinx". Black folks made it very clear they were behind the mainstream liberal Dems like Biden and Clyburn and Shontel Brown, but the progressive left wants to label those same liberal Dems as racists or Uncle Toms
Are you talking about a few extremists? Among the Democratic politicians, the few on the far left are pretty diverse.
Yes, I'm talking about a very few elected officials and a larger amount of leftists that think Twitter is real life
I've never been on Twitter. My congressman and the Dems in my area seem pretty reasonable. As a matter of fact, my Republican friends are reasonable and get along with my friends who are Democrats. But then, we're not a bunch of a-holes.
Nailed it!
Black Democrats have been supporting moderate liberal to conservative Democratic politicians for 50 plus years. For whatever reason white liberals and their paid tv talking heads (looking at you Joy Reid) just cannot seem to understand why a black person in Atlanta, Houston or Prince Georges County MD give Elizabeth Warren the "side eye" when hear talk about free college and wealth taxes. In the experience of most black people, they end up paying for these things without getting any of the benefits.
The white liberal's biggest problem has been and always will be that they don't actually know many black people and the few that they do know they probably don't talk to. If they did, they would know that what black people really want is not to defund the police, but to have police patrol the streets in their neighborhoods and work with them to stop crime; they would like to call 9-11 and have cops show up in less than 2 hours; they would like to go to schools that are properly funded; they would like to have policies that help them start businesses so that they can build wealth for their communities; and they would like the government to protect them from attacks on their rights by state and local governments. In other words, they want what everyone else in the US wants, and has benefitted from since at least WWII: basic, run of the mill liberalism that was once the purview of the GOP before 1964, and is now (still?) the ideology of the Democratic Party, at least since 1960. They do not want a revolution, or redistribution program or anything else (reparations is not withstanding, which means different things to different people).
You how many white liberals there are? Millions. It's quite stupid to treat them as a monolith. They have many viewpoints and opinions.
There's a patronizing savior-complex among some white leftists, making them unable to see that people of other races have the same rational ability to choose differing political views that white people do.
I agree 100%.
That was pretty unfair. I understand exactly what you mean. I’m a New England liberal but my 20 something daughter sometimes has rules about what can be said that baffle me.
Of course. I just don’t always agree.
Sometimes peoples opinions are hard to understand, particularly with a 30+ year age difference. We actually agree on virtually all political issues. It’s just that people in their 20s are more attuned to subtleties of language than when I was that age, even as a Boston liberal. I’m not making some major statement here. I think you’re reading too much into this.
Agree with this. I recently got together with a fellow middle aged gay I hadn't seen since college and we marveled at the granularity of identities that are meaningful to college students today. It was funny - we felt like such radicals back in the 90s coming out as gay. Kids today just yawn at that, which, in fairness, is the world we hoped we were creating back then.