DeSantis’s WTF Memo

Happy Friday. Welcome to the Bulwark podcast. It is August eighteenth two thousand twenty three. I’m Charlie Sykes and to Miller, I have to tell you I’m blown away by this news cool. I guess there’s so much.

There’s just so much going on.

How was it August eighteenth? Remember when I when I was a kid,

August eighteenth was, like, shark week, you know, the news cycle. Like, we there’d be a shark’s idea going on in San Diego. And that would be all that people would talk about a few days.

Yeah. So what what is the most gobsmacking story of the day? I don’t know. Let’s just, you know, reach our handout. You can’t see that Donald Trump and his lawyers don’t have a sense of humor.

I guess that’s true. What was your first reaction when you heard that they were they wanted to delay the I’m gonna call it the coup case. The January sixth case. They wanted to delay it to two thousand twenty six.

It’s a bold ask. It’s not an interesting ask. I’m a I was I was also intrigued that, you know, in the DC case, they asked we have to move it to West Virginia. But in the Georgia case, Now we gotta move that to federal court. But, you know, why not?

Who knows? Consistency is not necessarily needed here.

I think it’s highly unlikely that is gonna be delaying the case for more than two and a half years, but, you know, it it is kind of an interesting tell because, you know, if you’re accused of something falsely and you want to be exonerated mean, don’t you want your day in court, like, right now? And Trump’s position is basically, yeah, kind of like, I would like a date in April of, like, never.

You would think so. Speaking of Tel is also he was he announced a big press conference at Bedminster on Monday. I was was blocking out my schedule. We were gonna do a YouTube reaction to it. I was very excited.

He was gonna reveal all the fraud details. And he’s like, well, actually, Actually, we’re just gonna file these in court documents. It’s like, oh, yeah. Right? Because if you had the proof that proved that you were innocent, you definitely would want Donald Trump definitely would wanna keep him under seal.

Yeah. How how many times has Donald Trump done this thing, you know, in two weeks, I’m gonna announce, you know, my health care plan or I’m gonna announce my infrastructure planner. I’m going to hold this press conference explaining Melania Trump’s, immigration status, and it never happens. And this one

Or Obama’s birth certificate? Yeah. Exactly.

The moment he announced I have this big press conference and I’m gonna lay out the definitive evidence. I’m thinking this is never gonna happen. It’s just not gonna happen. So my shocked face, Trump cancels press conference on election fraud claims, claims attorneys advice. The attorneys probably were saying something like, you do this.

We’re quitting. Right.

I got only four of us left. I’m

gonna get to my other favorite story of the day just in a moment. Actually, I have so many favorite stories of the day. The, Kenneth Cheesborough, Fellow Cheeshead, Wisconsin native. We are so proud. Alleged architect of the fake elector’s plot.

Turns out that I was following Alex Jones around the Capitol grounds on January sixth. This is a CNN exclusively. Can we just put this to the side here?

Yeah. Okay.

Because we have to start with this. Sorry. And I said in my newsletter this morning, you know, I really had hoped to write about anything except Ron DeSantis, you know, failing fumbling campaign. I mean, it’s like, we’ve kinda done that. A lot.

You know? But I’m sorry. I don’t know how you don’t talk about this weird moment where this not a leak, the Super PAC, post the memo about his debate strategy here. Now before we get into this, I’ve been describing him as, you know, real man of political genius, but it occurs to me that there are a lot of folks out there that do not understand that reference. You do.

Right, Tim?

Oh, yeah. This is a childhood, formative childhood ad campaign.

Yeah. This is Bud Light. This is a famous, famous, famous ad campaign. In case you remember, remember the real men of genius.

Budweiser presents real men of genius. Real mail g. Today, we salute you, mister

Oh, and they go with it. We salute you and just one after another. We can’t even go through all of them. They were classics. So every time I I see something nice, I think, you know, Rhonda Sanders real man of genius, Okay.

So you commented on this effect. I quote you in my headline of of the newsletter saying this is really kind of the what did you say? One of the most WTF leaks in memory But you have to sort of step back. This is what I wrote as. I mean, you take a moment to consider where Rhonda Sanders is in.

And he’s trailing Trump by thirty nine points. He’s shedding votes, you know, and donors. He’s reset his campaign about a dozen times, right, fired staff. He has to fly commercial now. He’s been trying to, you know, imitate a normal human being, somebody who’s likable, that’s not working.

He’s being mercilessly trolled by Trump. And so he has a chance to really turn things around next week. Right? Maybe maybe his last chance. He’s gotta come to Milwaukee.

He’s gonna be on the debate stage. And He’s been given a gift by the political gods. Right? Because the debate takes place the same week that his main rival for the Republican nomination is going to be arrested, fingerprinted, have his mugshot taken after being indicted for his fourth time, and his main strategy is going to be defend Donald Trump, mister Miller. Click tactic.

Sledgehammer Vivic. I

am so I’m so sick of talking about tiny days. I mean, I there that for a while, there was some joy in watching his suffering just because he earned it so much just with his — Yes.

—

Slavish sucking up to Donald Trump and don’t say gay and and and all the fucking anti anti trumpers that were you know, kind of guilt or saying, you guys have to get on to board up to Santa’s or else you’re a trump supporter. So so just watching all of their pain. There has been a shot in Florida. Element to that that I’ve enjoyed. But I’m, like, you know, getting bored with it.

It’s, like, every week. It’s, like, on the next level on this podcast. On the website, it’s like, we gotta keep talking about how much HIPAA disaster is, but I really could do the full hour on this memo. Yeah. Like, this is the catch.

This is like the cherry on top of the Sean for the cake because it’s unbelievable. I mean, it is I’ll just leave this little teaser. It is also a little triggering because I had a bad debate leak in my in my career. We can talk about after. But this one is so much worse.

It’s like, you look at this memo. And on the real men of Genius list, we have to mention Jeff Rowe, the supposed it’s Vengali strategist of the

Super PAC. There are

a million articles about

genius behind the Ted Cruz. Yeah.

The next Carl Rogue and ever, you know, all everyone was recruiting to have Jeff Rowe. Trump wanted them Youngkin and the scientist or was a and it’s like he runs this firm axiom strategies. And that is where this memo that we’re about to talk about, like, they posted on their own fucking website. It’s like, how do you think somebody found that, guys? Like Yeah.

See, this is not a leak. It’s, like, we’re putting this out because we want people to see this.

And the memo treats Ron DeSantis. Like, he is a child. Like, he has a dumb child, like a low IQ child, and it talks to him like a baby. It is so condescending. There’s a type of memo that you would write to, like, Hersha Walker.

Right? Like, a first time candidate who’s never debated and, like, it’s a celebrity or something and doesn’t even really know politics and and and you’re a consultant you come in and, like, you’ve been charged with, like, trying to give somebody the ABCs of how to debate. Like, that is what this memo is for a guy that’s a two time sitting governor that what is supposedly the great white hope for the, you know, non Trump Republicans. You know, it’s like Please show emotion when your wife tell a story about

your wife that shows emotion. It’s like if you were

attacked, pivot, you know, to attack another candidate, you know, rather than responding to the it’s like, me media training one zero one a Roger Adel’s one.

Hosted note. Be human.

It’s like what? I mean, so

a, the tone of this whole thing, you know, it gives them little things that’s like how it’s like I’m writing my kid. Like, okay. You know, you gotta brush your teeth for one minute. Okay. I’m gonna set a timer.

Alright. You know, it’s, like, attack Joe Biden three to five times. I never state your positive vision. Two to three times And why do they think he would need this? Okay.

And then the specifics of the advice is stupid. And then and then you get to you know, three-dimensional, that one dimensional chest element of this. You know, where it’s like, here’s how you attack Vivic. We’re gonna give you some fake nicknames to try out. Fake Vivek, robot Vivek.

And then here’s how you deal with Chris Christie.

Indu Vivek.

That’s like here’s here’s how you deal with Chris Christie. And it’s like, you are gift wrapping Vivic and Chris Christie the response.

This is the part. I mean, I’m sorry. I actually tears rolling down my cheeks right now here because it is so bad. You know, as you pointed out, it does make the candidate seem like a pathetic baby. And then, of course, it neutralizes all these attacks because you telegraph to Chris Christie that you’re gonna do this.

The most dangerous debater on the state, whatever you think about Chris Christie, He is not the guy that you want, pivoting on you, particularly when you have all of your talking points. Remember how he destroyed Marco Rubio? He said, well, there’s the talking point again. Okay. This is going to be almost too easy.

Christie’s about to be going, are you kidding me? I mean, really, you know, is, like, he’s just gonna look at him and say, know, is is that is that what your handlers told you to say? Oh, you’re now gonna, you know, call Vivec fake Vivec? Are you gonna I mean, it’s just gonna be

Yeah. Sorry, Ron. I already knew this attack was coming because your puppet master told the New York Times about it last week. Like, you know, you’re the big donors that are that are telling you what to say. Sorry.

That’s not gonna land for me. Brian Jones, an old colleague of mine is doing the Chris Christie Super PAC. And his response in the New York Times story was, he’s like, we, our Super PAC sent a memo to Chris Christie, which was be yourself. You know?

And it’s just the the

the pushback is just so easy. I know this. I mean, even even Vivic, his response is like robot Ron, you know, is doing his big donors bidding now. Why they thought this was necessary, smart, you know, and then you get into the merits of the advice, which is also not good. Which is like ignore Trump.

You don’t wanna agree with somebody like Chris Christie who’s auditioning for a show on MSNBC burn. You know, and it’s like, okay.

That lines off the tape. Now. Right? Yeah.

Right. Alright. Well, that was maybe a

good hit on Chris, Chris, Steven. Now you can’t use it. And it’s like, like, you’re losing to trump by forty points. I get the, oh, you know, you don’t want them to turn into Charlie Sykes into Miller. Right?

Okay. Like, like, that’s I I get that. If you’re trying to beat Trump or public in primary, you’re not trying to you know, troll them on every possible thing. But you still have to offer voters something. Don’t you?

I know it was just hilarious to watch the national review Dazatos fanboys, like, rending the garments yesterday. They’re just like, what is the point of this primary? If you’re not even gonna at least make the case that, like, oh, Donald Trump, maybe it’s not smart to nominate somebody who has seven court dates next year. Like, if you can’t say that

—

Yeah.

—

then what what is the point?

Noah Roth over at Dash Review has really not been Ron DeSantis fanboy, but but he did say this I I don’t understand why DeSantis is in the race at this point. If he thinks he can win the nomination by playing blocking tackle for the front runner, just stop wasting everyone’s time and money. And even at least staphonic, you know, proving the rule that even a blind squirrel finds the the nut once in a while, since this is, you know, as a former debate prep, the first and most obvious rule of debate prep is do not leak the debate prep memo. Right. I mean, She’s right there.

So this is gonna be a little bit of a a digression. You you saw that’s, sort of deep dive in the Washington post this week about about Ron DeSantis and, you know, people, was it Josh, Dossy?

No. Ben Terrace about how awkward he is? Is it that one or different one? No. No.

No. No. We know the other one. There have

been so many bad Ron DeSantis stories this week. It’s hard to keep up. Sorry.

That’s the problem. You’re you’re talking about the Ben Terrace piece about how well, he’s connecting with awkward Americans. We see them. Okay. That that was pretty good.

It’s like it’s like even awkward people that hate Rhonda Sanders are starting to feel bad for him.

I was like, that’s not This is when when things start to get really, really rough. Anyway, go ahead.

So, you know, half the audience is going Tim and Charlie. American democracy is burning and you guys are gapping. Okay? Because that’s how we preserve our sanity here.

And because he deserves it.

So I’m talking about the story where they called around to people, Republicans in Florida, and they basically all said, yeah, this guy’s total asshole. He’s always been an asshole, and let me tell you like ten stories. One of my reactions was, why didn’t they make that phone call a year and a half ago? Because, apparently, it was really easy for donors, for journalists, for, you know, anyone to figure out that he, you know, all of this project on Ron DeSantis was based on, say, some misapprehensions, about, you know, Rhonda Santis, which are playing out in real time. So This was not a mystery.

This was not a closely held secret.

No. It’s not I mean, obviously, Democrats would say that about him. But even, like, his colleagues, right? Like, Barbara stock. I I remember what we had bar when did we have Barbara Comstock on a Thursday night volt Bulwark?

I I think it was even before he announced. And she was saying this. Former congresswoman Republican, you know, who’s broken correctly on the party. She was saying he didn’t have friends. I Will Saletan do think people knew this.

Even the people that were getting behind him, I think they felt really trapped. And this was part of the also, I think, you know, I’m gonna do some armchair psychological analysis why there were these over the top tax on us, right, for criticizing them. Right? Because it was, like, everyone’s just gonna get in line. Everyone’s gotta shut up and get in line.

Like, yeah. Okay. We’ve heard some things these kinda weird or You know, yeah. Some of his policies, like, he went way overboard on the Disney thing and and the migrant shipping, but, like, but he’s our get out of jail for card. So if you don’t like trump, like, you just have to just shut up and get in line because he’s our get out of jail free card, and we’ll just gonna take our chances.

And if you criticize Ron DeSantis on any of these things, that means that you secretly want Trump. Right. You really, you know, you never trumpers really are always trump because otherwise, you would be sucking up to Rhonda because he’s the guy.

When literally the opposite was true. Right? And I think I forget, I I think all we all made this point. So I don’t I don’t I don’t want any credit to somebody, but but early on, there was a case that was like bottoming out run to Santa’s early is actually better. Right?

Because if this guy’s not up for it, find out now. Through the paces. So, yeah, so maybe they could find somebody else. It’s obviously too late for that now. And so the whole premise of that given line behind her on Santis element was just based on a fraudulent analysis of how of how good you’d be.

No. I think you’re right. So for people who think that that we’re being unfair about this, memo, I’m not sure anybody does anymore. But, I mean, you know, Charles, literally, let me just read this. There are four basic must dos, the memo condescendingly explains to, the governor of Florida.

Number one attack Joe Biden in the media three to five times. I love I love the fact they put a number up, but this is actually now, you know, as I spend more time with it, State GRD, that’s to say this is State GRD’s positive vision, two to three times. But no more than three times. Yeah. Okay.

Not as many times as you attack out Joe Biden, because people get bored.

Attach the media. Yeah. Five times for the media. Positive vision. Nobody gives a shit.

Three hammer Vivek, Ramoswamy, in a response, in a response, defend Donald Trump in absentia in response to a Chris Christie attack. Now all of this seems to be based on this great theory, the Orchestra Hit theory — Yeah. — which refers to Roger Ailes belief that making mistakes and choreographing attacks. We’ll get more media attention. So this is the adage.

You have two guys on stage. One guy says, I have a solution to the meetings problem. The other guy falls into the orchestra pit. Ailes once said, who do you think is going to be on the evening news? So real men of political genius like Jeff Rowe extrapolate from that and says, how can we fall into the orchestra pit?

Right? I think you missed

the point of the advice that I Right.

So, I mean, does that mean that floor demand’s gonna throw himself into a mosh pit or something if things aren’t going well for him? Or if Chris Christie says something nasty to him,

All my text changes are just blowing up with everybody who’s ever, you know, I’ve ever been in a debate prep with. The most generous among people in the text are like, maybe this is head fake. Like, this is too stupid to not be a head fake. And maybe it’ll make Ron DeSantis seem tough that he doesn’t listen to them, that he does attack Trump. I just don’t think so.

Yeah. Yeah. I just don’t think so.

No. No. Occam’s razor is the simplest explanation is. No. It really is as dumb as it looks.

And I gotta tell you, so so just to own some of this to show you how why I think I have the credibility to say that this is as dumb as it looks is that we had this fuck up at at the Jeb’s campaign, a similar version where we had prepared not a memo to Jeb. So it was not nearly as embarrassing as this. That it was here are, like, the responses that we’re gonna put out if somebody attacks him. Right? You know, so it was, like, on a various, on, like, twenty issues.

It’s, like, if you attack him because of common core. Like, he was ordered to say, or if, you know, Marco, whatever is the hypocrite on this. And, you know, some poor kid on our campaign accidentally, like, pressed play on the website or whatever. So, like, it went. So, like, these these press releases went up on website.

They’re up for, like, two minutes. But there were some tweets about it. Yeah. Yeah. It was long enough.

There were some tweets about it, and it was, like, the most embarrassing thirty minutes of my life. Like, I had to walk into a corner office just, like, breathe into a bag for a couple of seconds. And luckily, this happened twenty minutes before the debate. And so then the debate happens, and there are other news. Like, this round of happening a week in advance.

So you just said, like, it’s leading drugs right now. But I’m telling you, like, these kinds of mistakes like, do happen. And and so, like, having lived through just how embarrassing and how painful, like, that small version of this is, I can just smell it. Like, you can smell it when when it happens and something that’s happened to you. And that’s what this was.

These guys thought that they were clever and could put it up on their own consulting firms website and that people wouldn’t see it. I don’t know how you could be that stupid, but they were. The one other thing that it’s reminiscent about to me, do you remember the, Do you remember Obama care? Obamacare care? This was my favorite for it’s for it’s a little history lesson for the pre trump Arab people.

My favorite debate strategist Gaffe ever. There’s this guy Nick Ayers, who is, like, Jeff Rowe, one time the bell of the media ball, and everybody’s, like, the great Republican strategist Nick Ayers, never won anything. He was Tim Palenti’s strategist, and he leaked to the press ahead of the campaign that that Palenti was going on stage and look at Mitt Romney and call Romney’s health care policy, obamacare. This is, like, the old days where the this was a tough attack in the pre trump era, and Palenty being Minnesota Nice, just couldn’t do it. Like, he got out there and he just didn’t wanna say it.

And so he had previewed this big attack, and then Balente didn’t say it on stage. And so, like, the only news coverage after the debate was, like, Tim Palente is too scared to criticize Mitt Romney. And this is, like, very reminiscent of that, but, like, on Ultra steroids.

Tales from the before times.

Yeah. Seriously.

These are the same geniuses who thought it was a great idea to launch the entire campaign, on Elon Musk’s show. Remember how that launch went? And they probably told him and, you know, that really went well government. That really did. It’s, that was fabulous.

And they’re in the same dishing as to decide to have the the Florida legislative session. I mean, Ron might just not have had it no matter what, but had he just got in when Trump got in and started focusing on electability initially? This is the counter big counterfactual. But instead, the geniuses that are like, no. We need he needs to be governor for five months and pass all these far right draconian cultural bills to, like, demonstrate that he’s more conservative than Donald Trump.

And it’s like, wait a minute. So you’re gonna run a campaign where he’s more electable than Donald Trump. But he also is more of a right wing freak on cultural issues than Donald Trump, like, did it. Were there any meetings where somebody was like, you know, guys, I think that there’s a little inconsistency here. Apparently not.

This is the problem. And, you know, he obviously has a whole suite of of problems including his, you

know, like

a human authenticity. But it doesn’t help the fact that his strategy seems to be we are going to pander to the, you know, forest right wing. We’re going to surround ourselves with some of the most plorable demagogues like the Christopher Rufos of the world and hire people like Nate Hoffman, who thinks it’s a good idea to put swastikas up on our on our ads and things like that. So at a certain point, you know, you were saying last week, and I thought it was a really good insight.

Thank you.

About how Mike Pence now seems, a little bit more comfortable in his skin. He knows he’s gonna win. So he just basically is kinda leaning into it. Okay? So he feels liberated.

Ron DeSantis is the exact opposite because He’s, like, constantly attuned. Like, what is the base thinking? What are the base based thinking? What is the right wing thinking? You know, what what is gonna get the dopamine hit?

So you’re never actually thinking, what do I really think? What do I wanna say? What is, like, who the hell am I really? It’s like What

animates me? Yeah.

Yeah. Kind of the difference between, you know, a gyroscope that actually, you know, has, you know, has a core as a center versus, you know, constantly at radar. Like, is there a blip out there that I need to, you know, that you need to follow. You know, hey, those are my people. I need to lead them that whole thing.

And I don’t know how he gets around

this. Okay. So Just really quick. I know some of our listeners will hate this analogy, but, but it’s it’s not a moral one. It is just on a performance thing, but I do think it’s similar to the problem that Kamla found herself in.

And sometime, maybe still finds herself in at times. And, when I when I Was everything Larry willmore about this? I was just like, it’s a Hollywood guy, like, what was your advice for Coblabe? And he was basically like, she’s just gotta let loose and be more and and she’s gotta, like, demonstrate a more authentic self. Right?

Like, even if it’s you know, even if it’s a little bit of a act, so to speak as an actor, right, like, you have to, like, loosen up and just get comfortable with whatever your answers are gonna be and whatever you’re gonna talk about. And instead, it’s almost like when you watch interviews, you can kinda see the hamster wheel turning sometimes. Right? And I anything that that that’s kind of what has heard her a little bit. Obviously, there’s some other stuff or rates and sex and and other issues that she’s had.

But I, like, that is very, I think, really happening with DeSantis. You can just feel him flailing and trying to figure out what to say, where he should fit.

But back to the point where, you know, his opponents say, you know, just be yourself. I mean, there’s sometimes when you really do not want to see the authentic real person. Maybe true. It is not good.

Okay. Sorry. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. One last thing that’s the other person.

Did you see someone was tweeting?

I do suffer through a lot of conservative media stuff for our listeners. I did not suffer through Rhonda Stantis’s Did you see the, like, somebody tweeted the excerpt from his book about where he met his wife? No. And how he met Casey. And it’s like and it starts by being, like, I’m a guy that has good hand eye coordination, and he starts talking about his baseball career.

And then he’s like, but I my hand eye coordination didn’t always match the golf and I and I was at a driving range, and there was this woman who was getting good head speed. And it’s just like and this is Casey. So, I mean, if that’s how he shows emotion describing meeting his wife where he reflects on his own hand eye coordination and golf head speed, you know, maybe he’s to your point. Maybe being the true authentic self isn’t the answer. Maybe he needs to find a fake persona that feels authentic.

Well, he’s been trying and it hasn’t worked out for him. I’m just hoping that this is the last time that you and I have to actually talk about Ron DeSantis like Evra, which is not true.

I wish.

Okay. Do you agree with me that, there’s no way that Donald Trump shows up with the debate? I mean, I think he’s made that perfectly clear. There was zero especially now — Zero. — that Ron DeSantis is going to, you know, defend him, like, Trump’s gonna say, why the hell should I show up?

Yeah.

I think no way.

Zero chance.

Zero chance.

Had history worked out differently. I don’t think it was always zero. You know, Trump does have, obviously, as a malignant narcissist, and and I think that if he was concerned that, you know, the spotlight might be off of him. Maybe he would have done it, but I he doesn’t have to do it. And I think that I know you talked about this a little bit yesterday on the Thursday pod.

And and you are not quite as convinced about the genius idea of him, you know, surrendering to Bonnie Willis on the day of the debate. And I’m not necessarily sure if it’s a genius idea either, but it is very trumpy idea And my mega I’ve had some combos with Mega World folks, you know, for another thing I’m working on, and they’ve all decided that they think that’s the thing.

That

he should do. So I, you know, I don’t know whether that’s it. He’s gonna do something. Maybe it’s not the surrender. Maybe it’s a Tucker Carlson interview.

Maybe it’s a rally. Maybe it’s a press conference, but he’s gonna do something to counter programming. And that makes a lot more sense.

Right. And if and and of course, the counter programming really, I

I don’t think that he wants the image of of himself being Perp walked, you know, in split screen with

the other candidates. I mean, that that is not the image However, doing the Tucker thing or doing some other thing. Remember when he boycotted the Fox News debate, didn’t he hold, like, a, you know, a rally in you know, claimed fundraiser for veterans. I don’t know if the veterans ever got

any money.

Yeah. No.

It was a fundraiser, and then he never gave the money to the veterans, then he got shamed into it.

So Okay. So before we get into, the the indictments and everything in your reaction to all of that, I’m surprised you didn’t come on saying you were you were having mimosas in celebration of, you know, indictment for me. I mean,

I can only drink so much.

I mean, is this is this getting old for you?

I should

only drink so much, Charlie Sykes live in New Orleans now. Every time there’s an indictment, I drink.

There’s a lot of evidence for

the conference. Inviting me places. That’s why I I’m sober at this morning. No. Thank you for asking.

So before we get to that, though, the CNN story that, just broke this morning about, Kenneth Cheesboro, who is, one of the lawyers who is the architect of the fake elector scheme actually was born in Wisconsin and played a role here in Wisconsin. I’d never heard of him before all this happened. And I think he’s probably kind of the least known of all of the lawyer plotters. They certainly, you know, less well known than Rudy Giuliani or Jenna Ellis or, Jeff Clark or Sydney Powell, all of those folks. But it turns out that he was actually on at the Capitol on January sixth.

And the detail that jumps out at me here is he was not just at the Capitol. He was hanging out with Alex Jones. And this is a great report, you know, from CNN. Here’s the report. When conspiracy theorist Alex Jones marched his way to the US capital on January six two thousand twenty one, riling up his legion of supporters, an unassuming middle aged man in a red Trump twenty twenty hat, conspicuously tagged along.

Videos and photographs reviewed by CNN show the man dutifully recording Jones with his phone as the bombastic media personality ascended to the restricted area of the Capitol grounds were mobs of then president Donald Trump supporters eventually broke in. While the man’s actions outside the capital that day have drawn little scrutiny, his alleged connections to a plot to overthrow the twenty twenty election have recently come in sharp focus. He is attorney Kenneth Cheesbro, the alleged architect of the scheme to subvert the twenty twenty electoral college process by using fake GOP electors in multiple states. Okay. Are you ready for kind of a gold noli kind of a flashback, Tim?

Please.

Okay. So keep in mind that here is one of these these key players who has now been indicted, one of key go to guys in Trump world to, overturn the election, and he’s hanging around. He is hanging around with Alex Jones. This is the audio of a video that Alex Jones posted like, I think it was five days before the insurrection. This is Alex Jones.

This is the guy that Kenneth Cheesboro was tagging along with. Alex Jones, I think beginning of January two thousand twenty one, just listen to this.

President Trump confirmed today January first twenty twenty one. That he is going to be speaking at a rally and an event coming up next Wednesday, January sixth. Now, we happen to know the location of that. We’re gonna lay it out for you now. But everybody has to get to DC.

There’s gonna be a huge rally at Freedom Plaza on the evening of the fifth on Tuesday. And then in the morning, it’s gonna open up at about eight AM for everybody to get in to the ellipse that is just south of the White House. There’s room for a lot of people, but not for the millions that’ll be there. They’ll be on the outside of that. And then we’re gonna march to the capital that’s gonna be holding the debate over the election that starts that day.

This is a critical time in history. Now, I’m gonna be speaking in DC. Roger Stone is gonna be speaking in DC. General Flynn’s gonna be speaking in DC at multiple events. Roger Stone spent some substantial time with Trump in Florida just a few days ago.

And I’m told big things are afoot and that Trump’s got major action up his sleeve. Thank god. He’s not Giving into this tyranny that he’s not acquiescing, and going along with the gaslighting and the fraud and the lie that there’s no evidence of election scams because we have absolutely massive evidence and the president must not concede. He must never concede because Joe Biden try to steal this election, got caught doing it, and as a Communist Chinese agent.

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Just kinda throws in there.

And as a Communist which, by the way, Tim, would really be big true.

It would definitely be news.

That’s kind of a big throwaway line.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it was something we’d talk about on the pod. The Roger Stone element of that, obviously, all of that was in stained I just don’t know

a minute of that.

I think it’s particularly interesting to relisten to now, especially given that video, that Ari Milber, aired this week that others was documentary about and where it talks about implanting this plan. And so I you know, you know, you don’t need to put pictures on a wall and yarn to connect Cheeseborough, you know, who is with Jones there on January six and and Stone, who was obviously talking to Jones, you know, was working on this plot to come up with fake electors and, to disrupt the count on January six.

Yeah. It’s one of those things where you don’t need to say, you know, elaborately say this was a planned event. Because they’re going into wait. Wait. Wait.

It was planned. We were doing all of this. And clearly, Alex Jones knew what was going on, was right into whatever the plan was And he’s talking about, you know, Roger Stone spending time. And you’re you’re making a reference to this video tape, which I’m sure that many of our listeners have already heard of Roger Stone. Like, I think it was a couple days after the election, basically dictating the fake elector plot.

Just just laying it out exactly as they tried to do it. Okay. The reason I was asking about the mimosas before is that there is some speculation that with all of these indictments, there’s a certain numbing effect. They’d be kind of a surreal sense that, okay, you know, same old, same old, but —

Yeah.

— this is a big freaking deal. I mean, this is the week that Donald Trump was indicted on I’ve lost track now. Tim, thirteen more felony charges.

Yeah. Up to ninety one.

He’s up to ninety one felony charges. And next week, He’s going to Bulwark walk. I mean, that that maybe, you know, that’s a term of art, but, he’s gonna be fingerprinted. To be arrested, they will take his mug Shunt.

Now there’s a rumor going around. Okay. I I wanna answer the actual question, but but I’ve been I should have had you ask this on the Trump trials pod to the experts

Yeah.

There’s a rumor going around that he might get weighed. Is that too much to hope for?

Oh, you know, come on. Our cup runneth over already.

I know. But I just, that would really be the icing on the I mean, for me, the fingerprints, the tiny fingerprints, that’s gonna be exciting. The mugshot is exciting, but getting him weighed. I mean, there’s just an indignity to that. Especially because of his lies about his weight and, you know, how sensitive he is about of all that.

I mean, there’s just something about that would really be a chef’s chest for me.

Have you noticed there’s kind of a division, though, among the anti trump world? There’s a little bit of pearl clutching, like, oh, is this too much? Is this gonna backfire? We don’t want them. We’ll go to jail and everything.

And I think you and I are in the camp of going we better get the good champagne out next week. Okay. Let’s be honest about this.

Yeah. No. We’re on the same side of this. I think that there is legitimate reason to think it all through and to talk you through. I and this is we are an unprecedented question.

Yeah. So I I do think that that’s totally legitimate. And that we should have, you know, serious and sober minded people that are trying to decide what to do here, I’m just not gonna be one of them. I I got the more pain. I mean, the more pain is better camp.

And this fucker, deserves everything that he’s coming to him. And I think, yeah, there has been a two tiered system of justice, and he’s been the one that’s been treated unfairly in a in a way that is has benefited because he hasn’t been treated like a regular common criminal, but he is. And I’m glad that he’s going to in Georgia. I’m not gonna let any concerns about this other stuff, get me down. I I think their legitimate concerns about direct domestic terrorism and legitimate concerns about, you know, our our institutions and all that.

But fuck him also. That’s where I land on.

Okay. So the big case is still the, is still the Jack Smith case in in Washington DC. The January sixty eight. That is that is the case. This is very much an insurance policy in many ways because there is no presidential pardon here.

There’s no there are there are other minimums.

There’s not even a governor of Georgia part in here.

That’s right. That’s right. And the Georgia Rico statute is actually, more potent for the process cutters than the Federal Rico charges. And in Georgia, you have, you know, all of the planets aligned. You you have the fake electric plop, the line, the, you know, tampering with voting machines, and you have an audio tape.

Lordy, there are tapes. There are tapes of the former president trying to get. So there’s a lot going on there. I’m not among those who are, you know, wringing my hands about this. However, now can I be earnest because we’ve kinda been — Yeah?

— we’ve had a light movement. And now I now I need to be a little bit earnest. And I apologize for the earnestness here. The attacks on the DA and the implicit threats against the grand jurors. A very, very dangerous moment here.

And particularly as we we and I think I described it last night on on one of the cable shows is, you know, Donald Trump is flicking lighted matches, you know, at a bond fire that’s already soaked in kerosene. And we are in a world right now where we have seen the potential of political violence, not the potential, the actual political violence, whether you’re talking about a a church in Charleston, a synagogue in Pittsburgh, a Walmart in El Paso, a grocery store in Buffalo. Guys who send pipe bombs to journalists. An attack on the FBI office after the Maril Lago raid, a Maga extremist with an arsenal of guns in Utah who was killed by the FBI, and I am just scratching the surface here. This is a really dangerous moment, and Donald Trump is continuing to escalate the rhetoric.

His supporters are continuing to escalate their tactics, including doxing, the the jurors. At some point, we’re gonna find out how far the judges are gonna let him go. But also, you would think that at least some Republican voices other than say Chris Christie, etcetera, and and others would say, look, At minimum, we need to lower the temperature of the rhetoric. We need to be aware of how dangerous this is. That these toxic ideas can have fatal consequences.

So the bare minimum would be for somebody on that debate stage who is not necessarily anti trump to say, okay. Whatever criticism we might have about this or, you know, qualms we might have about this, you know, what we cannot do. Is to continue to foment this kind of irrational hatred because it’s going to end badly And it’s so predictable. This is not trump derangement syndrome. We saw what happened on January six.

We’ve seen one guy in one city with a gun who’s deciding that America is being taken away. Because if you actually believe that the country has been taken over, has been stolen by an agent of the Chinese communists. Right? And has destroyed our democracy. And they they hate god, and they hate America, and they hate everything good and decent in America.

Then what is the response? Right. This sludge is being pumped out every single day. And you and I don’t even seal. And we spent a lot of time on conservative media, but there is that dark, far right world out there that has millions of people who are listening to this.

It is really a dangerous situation. So there ends my my earnest rant because I am to quote our good friend, Bill Crystal. I’m alarmed.

Yeah. And there’s a lot there. I I also I share your earnest concern about this, and I and I know there are two elements to that that, in particular. The first one, just to speak to the previous question, I mean, obviously, I want to see Donald Trump punished because he deserves it and because it would feel good. Yeah.

But also, he needs to be treated in the same way that other defendants fomenting violence would be treated. And even Alberto Gonzalez and Bill Barr, have not seen a lot of courage from the Republican politicians. I’ll get to them in a second, but these are not exactly squishes. Okay? You know, we’re out there saying that these are our legitimate indictments.

Barr said that he thinks he could possibly be convicted by next summer. Gonzalez said that that there’s no reason to think our friends’ Republican accountability project put this out, like, that there’s no reason to think that, you know, he would not have been indicted on this if he was not running as a candidate. All the stuff would absolutely still be going through. This is not political. And so I wanna take that one step further, which is another defendant.

Like, if this was one of the other Rico cases in Georgia is, you know, turning these rappers, y g l. And, like, if they were out there doing rap songs about how, like, people should shoot up, Bonnie Willis’s house. Mhmm. There would be real re legal ramifications for that. And that’s basically what Donald Trump is doing.

And there should be real legal ramifications for that. And I hope that they that he is not does not continue to be treated lightly. And I that’s just where I fall on the merits of all this. I get that they’re different.

Well, I completely agree with you.

On the Republicans really quick, on the Republican candidates. Yeah.

Sure. Because I

I just think this has to be said. And this is the thing that really gets my dander up. We ought to always always talk about the same people. You know, the handful of good Republicans left. The Chris raises the MetRitt Romney.

And then crazies. Right? But there are a lot of other Republicans out there that just continue to remain silent. You know, I was speaking to there’s a great group Sarah Longwell Fulworth. If you live in North Carolina, look at them I spoke to them this week.

And I was talking about Tom Tellis. And it’s like, where is Tom Tillis? Tom Tillis knows fucking better. He knows that this is wrong. He knows Donald Trump shouldn’t be president again.

He knows that the coup effort was wrong. He knows that threatening DAs are wrong. He believes in the rule of law. And people like Tom Tullis are just absent. Like, they are just cowering in the corner and hiding.

You know, and even Kristen Nune, Chris Nune is out there doing interviews this week. And he’s like, Well, if we get it down to a one on one with Trump, then, it’s like, what are you guys talking about? Like, like, you guys need to wake up to the reality that you are in and be responsible and be leaders and try to turn down the temperature and help on the margins and not to say, oh, some magic fairy is gonna come help us and save this in the future. There is no fairy.

You know, I mean, that is. It is the thinking, you know, something, something, something unicorn, asteroid, something’s gonna do this as long as we don’t have to do it. But I think that you know, if if a Tom tell us were to stand up and say, hey, listen, we cannot have, you know, more violence. We can’t have this kind of of rhetoric. Hard for me to imagine the ten, fifteen, twenty years from now.

He or his children would look back on that and regret it. Right. They said this was a good thing, the right thing. Okay. So I wanna read something to you.

Okay? Joe Klein, v Joe Klein, famous Joe Klein, has a newsletter, which is actually really, really good.

Nice, Scott.

Yeah. And, he has a piece about thinks Democrats should be a bit louder about all of this. And I have mixed feelings about it, but I wanted to get your take on this. Okay? I’m gonna so I’m gonna read you a couple of paragraphs.

Okay. Not to put too fine a point on it, client rights. Donald Trump is a ridiculous human being, but he’s a bully. And so no one has the courage to treat him the way he treats other people. No one ever asks Why is your face so orange?

Or what is that thing on top of your head? Do you really wanna look like Stanley Tuchi in the hunger games? Or or even a more restrained, how long, sir, does it take you to prepare your hair every morning? Or why didn’t you just photoshop those pictures of your inauguration crowd prove you had more people than Obama, or did you really wanna make that Texas doofus surgeon general, or weren’t you pretty terrible appointing judges and so many of them throughout your election for cases. Why?

Sixty three different judges toss your lawsuits?

That’s a good one. And he

goes on to say, treating Donald Trump with respect is not just unwarranted, it defies the law of the playground because you stand up to Bulwark. You expose their cowardice. You make fun of You say I’m rubber, you’re glue. Everything you say to me balances back on you. Jack Smith is deranged.

Uh-huh. Projection. Trump has really talked to you about himself. Of course, Joe Biden himself cannot do this, not presidential, but his silence about this, summer in Trump land hasn’t been very effective either. Has it?

He has said nothing about the seriousness of the indictments. It is a president’s job to explain these things to put them into perspective. He has allowed Haudry Creeps like Jim Jordan, the demeanor authority of the Justice Department, and Biden’s surrogates are even worse. With the rule of law collapse, if Merrick Arland showed some righteous anger, would it be untoward to suggest that more Americans, especially those who associate Garland’s supine silence with weakness might think twice about Trump if Democrats actually started to fight back in ways that people who did not go to law school might understand. What do you think, Tim Miller?

Yeah. There’s a lot there. I I’ve mixed views on that as well. You know, the schoolyard taunting. I mean, there are some time of cuts to do this.

Eric Swwell does this. Is that isn’t that effective? I guess, can you out school yard taunt Trump? Like, maybe not. Right?

And so I don’t I don’t know about that part of it. The latter part of the critique, I think, is more interesting. And Joe Biden has done on the merits exactly what the supposed, you know, norms crowd would want them to do here on all these cases. Like, to all evidence, maybe something will come out in the future. But to all evidence, Joe Biden has has been completely hands and and really it made me to the detriment.

They probably showed down this a little quicker. And so on the merits, he’s been good on that, but he hasn’t gotten any credit for that. Really, you know, outside of our, world. And so has that been effective? I don’t know.

Are there ways that he can talk about this stuff that would be more effective. I think so. And I think one thing that Joe Biden has been good at in the past is that he does talk like a normal person, like when he talks, usually. You know, sometimes I have his stutter and, you know, he’s slowing down a little bit, but he does the words he uses are not he doesn’t sound like an Ivy lager. Right?

Yeah. And he’s good at that. And I think that there is something to the idea that maybe he should be talking about, and maybe other Democrats, leading Democrats should be explaining in simple terms. What is happening? You know, the Kevin McCarthy is a good example.

I get frustrated when Kevin McCarthy goes out there and says Donald Trump’s polls go up and the deep state is now indicting him. That is obviously Bulwark. There are people like us that are out there saying that it’s bullshit. And, you know, does Joe Biden need to taunt Kevin McCarthy? No.

But would there be some value in Joe Biden go out there and saying, Hey, wait a minute, guys. Like, A grand jury decided this. Should we explain what a grand jury is, a prosecutor presents evidence, their their regular folks, people like you and me, that then decide whether there’s enough evidence to go forward. I will you know, there there’s the government isn’t involved in that. Is there, you know, some education out there that would just show how terrible Kevin McCarthy is.

You know, maybe. I don’t on the interview, I have coming Sunday with Robbie Kevin, who’s awesome. She’s deposed Donald Trump twice. Everyone should listen to it, but she She’s unbelievable. She’s she’s e g Carroll’s lawyer.

I love her. I

love her.

Anyway, he made fun of her. Right?

Yeah. He made fun of her. He he said she’s not my type. Yeah. She talked about how on the Eugene Carol jury, there was a Tim pool, that guy that was, like, he was, of kind of weird guy.

She didn’t use that word weird, but she described him. And so I I’ll put those words in my mouth who said that the only news he gets is from Tim Pool, who is this, like, former leftist who’s turned Maga YouTube person who, like, is promoting civil war in the country. A craze, like, totally crazy. Alex Jones level, almost crazy. But she couldn’t strike him.

Like, she tried to get the judge to strike him and they went and she tells the story. And that person sided with e g and Carol. Right? And so it’s like, Would that be a valuable anecdote maybe to share for leading Democrats just to go out there and and communicate a little more clearly about what is happening? About why this is, about how outrageous it is, listing all of Donald Trump’s accusations have used on your newsletter.

I think maybe there’s something to that critique from Cline.

I think so too. I I’m more agnostic about whether, Joe Biden himself should do it because I think the baby that’s not, you know, that’s not his role, but Back, the client’s piece, you know, the the heart of this is the Democrats seem to believe that Trump’s depravity is self evident, that you don’t need to point it out because it’s just so obvious I don’t think anything is self evident anymore. Right? I mean, I just, like, you know, subtlety is the stuff that people don’t get anymore. I think Republicans understand that.

I’m not sure that, the Democrats understand that as well, but I could be wrong.

People need reminders. People have short memories, man. I know that that’s crazy. Normal people. People that are not political obsessives.

Well, you and I do this for a living. And every once in a while, don’t you have to go back and say, I kinda need to remind myself of this, this, this, this, this, you know, and if we have to do that, to give you an indication So as I was listening to you, though, it occurs to me. I mean, we we know what Kevin McCarthy is doing. We know what the demagogues, like, Comer, and all of those folks are doing in the least Defonic Is there really a Democratic majority in the Senate? I mean

This is a great point.

Well, what happened to the US Senate?

Is there a US Senate right now?

What happened to that Democratic majority? I mean, they’re all sitting around waiting for Diane Feinstein to wake up or something? I mean, what? I When is the last time the Senate has done anything?

Do we have a Senate? I know. I I’ve made this rant about, about Clarence Thomas. And Maybe there are some prudential reasons why the Senate judiciary committee should not be pushing much harder to investigate Clarence Thomas Thomas Thomas Thomas, Thomas, some people over the would say over the corruption. I I think about the Ginny Thomas thing.

I I just I I remain maybe I’m crazy. Maybe you shouldn’t be, you know, this ends of the life shouldn’t fall in my husband, but it’s like, I don’t know. When a Supreme Court just as life attempts a coup and is a key player in a coup attempt, I think we should at least be able to ask the the justice and questions about what what he knew about that and what his thoughts were.

Well, okay. I mean, the Republicans with with their tiny majority in the house have shown that that they can use it to do investigations. They may be shitty at it. They’re terrible. They haven’t come up with anything, but they are obsessive about it.

I don’t know. What do they do all day over in the Senate?

Is the Senate not allowed to do investigations?

You you don’t know that you and I are gonna get phone calls

saying, Tim, Charlie, you just don’t understand. Let me explain to you why we can’t

Not push it. I mean, seriously, Do you have the majority or do you not? Do you have the chair or do you not? Do you have subpoena power or don’t you? Is the Diane Feinstein thing basically has it shut down the Senate.

Why is Tommy Tuberville able to gut the ranks of the military when he’s in the minority? Explain to me Exactly what your majority sorry.

I just dropped my phone because I’m, like, over here, gesticulating. I’m with you. Yeah. And Jared Kushner.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Why can’t

we do a tit for tat? Well, if if you’re gonna investigate Hunter, can’t the Senate investigate Jared Kushner? I don’t have a good answer. I we have some listeners who are in the Democratic Senate, and so maybe you can tell me that we’re maybe we’re something, but I I don’t I am with you. A hundred percent.

Well, I’m really glad to hear you say that because I’m thinking I obviously am missing something, and I was figuring to you would explain to me, Charlie, what you don’t understand. I wish I knew that Chuck Schumer is playing this complicated you know, five dimensional Yatsi game that is used as you Wisconsinites just don’t get. You know? I don’t

think so.

Because what do you think Mitch McConnell would be? And the

Democrats probably aren’t gonna be in control of the senate next time. No. I mean, you know, who knows that we’re a long way out to getting up at the I think they have a much better chance than to retake the house frankly just because of this nature of the map. And so it’s like this should be your moment. Right?

And if you’re if you were to have the gavel on one of these committees, especially if they can’t pass anything. You’d think the fact that they can’t pass anything would make the investigations more appealing. Exactly. Right? Because you can’t really do anything legislatively.

Okay. Well, think back at what Nancy Pelosi did with a five vote majority in the house. I mean, she had nothing. That that was that was really nothing. Think of all the things that she was able to accomplish and that she was able to do.

During the the trump years. And then contrast that to Chuck Schumer. I mean, I mean, maybe it’s like, we don’t wanna make Ron Johnson, man. Or we need to defer to Marsha Blackburn and Tommy Tuberville. And we need to give a veto to Tom Cotton and to your good friend Josh Holly from Missouri.

I mean, it’s like, well, We would do that, but JD Vance would object. Like, what? What is going on over there? I am getting myself worked about this. I’m sorry.

I have one sympathetic thing. I will get

it, please. And then,

and then we’ll work towards the end. But, like, they did do a lot of bipartisan stuff with the small majority in the Senate. You know, I mean, from from chips and gay marriage. And so, okay. And I I leveled this criticism maybe about a year ago and did have some feedback wanna stand there.

Like, I mean, we’re we’re trying to, you know, get this deal across the line. You know, you got mansion to deal with. And that there was some sympathetic debt, and they deserve credit for that. Passed a lot more than a lot of pundits.

I think they will

arrive in a bipartisan way. But, like, that time is done. Okay. I they might pass an Ag bill or something, you know, but, like, no you know, things of real substance are now happening between now and twenty twenty four. So with that argument off the table, what are they doing?

And that’s why your investigative power is is so crucial. Deep breath here. Tim Miller, thank you for joining me again on a really kind of an amazing week.

What a world we’re in?

What a world we are in. Okay.

I might go have them the most actually. I don’t know. You kinda riled me up, and I feel like I heard it.

Are you definitely earned it. I appreciate it. Thank you all for listening to this weekend’s Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. We will be back on Monday.

And we will do this all over again. The Bullbrook podcast is produced by Katie Cooper. And engineered and edited by Jason Brown.