Tim Miller: DeSantis Whiffs on Disney

Welcome to the Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. It is Thursday. It’s not Friday. I don’t want people to be confused because I’m joined by Tim Miller, who’s usually

with me on Friday. So happy Thursday, Tim. Yeah. It’s good to be with you. I was I have to say I wonder if is this like a short man privilege thing that you’re giving Adam Kinsinger the Friday slot?

Or, you know, what is it? Oh, shit. I don’t know. I mean, it’s you know, Kinsinger is pretty good. He’s pretty I mean, he’s good.

He’s not even in Thursday morning. I thought maybe he’d be more of a Thursday, man. No. No. No.

He’s he’s definitely the

Friday slot this week. But, you know, I I think that there was there was pent up demand people want more Tim, particularly after Ruita shared. They did one more Tim. They they really do. Right?

So there was a lot of demand So there’s so much to talk about today. So can I just tell you my favorite story and because it’s so weird? I love that. Before we get into everything else, I mean, we’re gonna talk about guns. We’re gonna talk about Chris Steve.

We’re gonna talk about Disney. We’re gonna talk about the grand jury. We’ll get to all that, I promise. I wanna talk about the burrito, the DNA on the burrito. This is an amazing story.

I thought it was gonna be the in eight years, we get to be immortal story. I don’t even know the burrito story, so I’m ready for this. The immortality story was as as a malignant narcissist, as like I am, the immortality story was the one that grabbed me. But would you go ahead with the breakdown? Yeah.

By the way,

I I do have mixed feelings about that, but we could talk about that some other time then. That might get us into some some weird existential philosophical territory here. So not quite ready this early in the morning, so I wanna talk about the half eaten burrito. Okay. So here’s the headline.

DNA pulled from half eaten burrito used to Charlie Sykes with fire bombing anti abortion office in Wisconsin. After nearly a year of searching, investigators used DNA pulled from a half eaten burrito to cap sure, man, they believe, firebombed a prominent Wisconsin anti abortion lobbying group’s office. In case, so the guy firebombed, a twenty nine year old guy. Whose name I’m not gonna try to pronounce tries to firebomb this office in in Madison. They’ve been looking for him.

Apparently, they fish out this burrito from a trash can. And they’re able to identify him. Is it Chipotle or don’t know it doesn’t say? Taco Bell. I don’t know how anyone gets away with anything anymore.

When you think about it. So just you know, they have eaten burrito. I have to say I I would not have have seen that coming. And

how did they know so he said they had a like, somebody had a eye on him and all so all we know is that the burrito is to keep you seven. It’s

the burrito. We don’t

have any more details. It’s in, like, the beans.

I’m waiting for the series. CSI burrito. Okay. Just go in there.

Well, I’m glad that we have some accountability and law and order for this. You shouldn’t be fire bombing officers no matter what your position is on abortion or any other issues. That is not part of a pluralistic society, so I’m glad he’s found. I will say this, so it’s pretty odd to me that I don’t have even watching the Gwyneth Paltrow case at all? Only tangentially.

Okay. Now that is a witch hunt. So here we are though. This guy is getting getting nabbed over the half eaten burrito and yet Gwyneth is being forced to testify by some litigious asshole. Over, you know, her mid mountain skiing encounter when she did nothing.

I mean, poor Gwyneth, you know, did nothing. Right? I think she’s gonna be vindicated the gentleman’s lawyer seems pretty bad. It seems kind of like when I was interviewing Adam Brody is one he’s and this one this lawyer is cross examining when it She’s like, I love you. I love your Bulwark, but that was weird.

But Yeah. You’re still there. Yeah. It is a witch count against — Yeah. — that’s — Glynth is.

Innocence. So I hope the other guy ate had, like, a mid mountain chili that we can dig up to prove that his his gel let me confess. I I just don’t have enough bandwidth to deal with on against

Gwyneth. But now that you you mentioned it, I mean, you’re talking about pretty much a b list terrorist if you’re about to fire bomb somebody. And you have a burrito first. But you’re so anxious to fire bomb, the place that you can’t finish the burrito. Okay.

This is never in the movies. You know, you need the energy, you know. I don’t know.

You kind of the sustenance. Has never occurred to me to try to firebomb something? Sounds like a mentally unstable person. And but I get to thinking

about burritos already. I know this. Hey, can I mention what’s about to happen to you? Sure. Yeah.

Let’s do it. With the moment we wrap up this podcast, your doorbells gonna ring and there will be movers, you are moving from the left coast. This is a big thing. I mean, you’re moving across the whole freaking country. Yeah?

I know.

I’m leaving Blue America. I know. My California dream is over. You know, the little California magic have been experience in the last half decade. The California has been nice to me, you know, there — Mhmm.

— there’s some things to really love about it. It gets a bad rap. The Little Bay area in the news, there’s some issues. You don’t need to be tell what the homelessness issue is real. The lack of housing is real cost of living.

But man, it’s so lovely out here. Yeah. But, no, we’re we’re making the move to New Orleans. We’ve been teasing it for a while, and it’s happening. We’ve purchased a home.

We’ve got a lot of close friends and there with kids that are my kids age and it’s closer to DC and New York. And fortunately, It’s kinda hard to do — Yeah. — this whole media I mean, you kind of are in your bunker in in Wisconsin, which is nice. But even then, you know, you can pop into DC if you need to. Post COVID, people keep being like, hey, Tim.

We come to DC for this. We come to New York for that. I don’t wanna live in DC or New York. But it’d be nice to be able to just fly there, you know, and not have it be a red eye —

Yeah. —

or spend my entire life on planes. When I’ve got a little baby a little girl at home, not a baby anymore, a little girl at home, and I wanna get back to you. So so we’re moving to New Orleans. It’s happening. A lot of people are gonna come through and visit, I think.

It’s It’s the best city in America in my opinion. And so I’m I’m thrilled to I’m thrilled to move

back. To do Marigra.

Marigra Jazz Fest on a regular basis. Worried. I mean, if people feel like my Content product is going down in ten or twenty percent I am a little bit worried about the alcohol consumption that will be surrounding me. In New Orleans, and that that might that might be going into my gullet. Hurricanes.

You’d heard the hurricanes.

Yeah. Sure. But — Yeah. — you know, We can we have fires here. I don’t know.

You have snow. I’m not sure if snow, fire,

and hurricanes are really in the same category. You

don’t think so? Not here. In the fires, I’d hear them pretty bad. See, the hurricanes are on the negative side of the ledger. No doubt about that.

No. I mean, the snow is not as bad as you know, fire and fire pestilence, hurricanes,

snow. But, I mean, this is why you’re so grumpy, though. I mean, you just have and the hurricane season is like three weeks. You’ve got you’ve got months upon months of just dreariness, you know, and you get vitamin d deficient, you know, that and so sometimes if you’re a little prickly on the podcast in the morning, people that texted me, they’re like, why is Charlie a little prickly today? And I’m like, well, it’s just he hasn’t had he’s in seen the sun.

You haven’t seen the sun in five

months? Hey, do you know though that I was born in Seattle speaking of of not seeing the sun? I didn’t I always think of you know, Wisconsin as being kind of, you know, the sun capital of the world, having grown up a little bit in Seattle where where what? And there’s a reason why they hang out in coffee shops all the time. Right?

Because they’re just too depressed. I mean, they they need the caffeine just to get through the day. So, I mean, I mean, you there’s gotta be that mixture of of excitement and sort of, you know, picking up your whole life packing it in boxes and moving away from from your home, that’s a stressful thing. But then looking forward to a completely new life, that’s gotta be kind of exciting. So I guess.

It’s been emotional. Is it is it kinda like a cycle of emotions? I mean, you must go through all of that. I mean, when you later today, all of your stuff is going to be in a truck. And you’re gonna be standing there in your house, and it’s gonna be empty.

And you gotta feel a little twinge there. Yeah. I might feel a twinge for you. Yeah. Thank you.

Do feel a quench. You

know, there’s some people especially humans that were leaving here than California that makes me sad to leave. I was getting emotionally around the little tunnel about two weeks ago. I hadn’t actually gone to see the house. My husband had gone a house hunting, and he was like, just fly down there for the day. And so I did that about I don’t know, like, a week and a half ago.

I flew down to seeing a house, walked around the neighborhood, and it was really a booing. You know, I was like, oh, right. I loved the city. You know, the cost of living is less. We’re gonna have more space, you know, for podcasting, and for child play, and for adult play.

That’s cool. And I walk into the coffee shop in my Hood, and I tell you this, and the guy walks in behind me. He’s like, hey. I’m a big Secret Podcast fan. Oh man.

Tell Charlie, I bought my lady friend, those never Trump sheets. So, you know, we have a sheet purchaser, you know, saw some of my buddies that live down there and it was spiritually uplifting. And I’m just made me feel like excited to be there and we land there and it’s like jazz festival week. So I do have mixed emotions, you know, the and this is like the house that my kid grew up in. But, you know, she’s only five.

We moved a lot as kids, so I don’t have quite this. Some people get wrapped up in the nostalgia of a home. That’s a little bit less of the case for me. I don’t know. I have good moves as a kid.

We moved from Saint Louis to Denver, and it was awesome. And I loved that. I was so happy about that move. And so I don’t know. Maybe I don’t have the same kind of twin just someone that I grew up in the same house and has little notches in the wall.

I just like, that’s right. Well, that’s hopefully the big one was when I was seven. When I was eleven, I I get that. I understand that, but I I don’t quite

have that same instinct as as I see in others. I think it was about five when we moved from Seattle to New York. We had to cross the entire country.

And So do you even remember Seattle? I’ve been thinking about that until it’s like will she even remember Oakland? Actually, I grew up in Edmonds, and you’re right on

PewDiePie. Do kind of have memories of the incredibly long road trip with animals in the back of the car who occasionally got sick and everything, but not terribly nostalgic because I was young, was much more traumatic when we moved from New York to Wisconsin when I was in about third grade because that was like, Yeah. What what do you mean? Wisconsin? I mean, are there wolves there?

What

was the impetus for that move? From New York to Wisconsin?

My dad got a job at the old Milwaukee Sentinel. In fact, the wonky sentinel had just been purchased by The Milwaukee Journal and he was writing for a newspaper out on Staten Island and he got hired to be a reporter slash editorial writer. The newspaper, so we moved for the job and have been here ever since. So so speaking of Wisconsin, in Wisconsin politics, there’s an analysis out today that’s spending on Wisconsin’s high stakes supreme court election. This is one justice.

That the spending has now reached a treaty for this forty five million dollars for a judicial scene in Wisconsin. And of course, you know, the states are so high because it’s sort of like everything’s on the table. We’ve talked about this before. It’s not overhyped. I mean, whether you’re talking about the election voting rights, abortion, any anything — Yeah.

— it’s going to be decided by this this one election. It’s it’s become really contentious, really at pneumonia is really, really ugly. But to give you a sense of how over the top it is, Wisconsin’s republicans are already considering a nuclear option if they lose this election. Which would really, you know, challenge their hold on power. There’s a Republican state senate candidate in this special election, which happens to be in the district I live in.

Who’s saying that if he wins, it says Republican wins, it will give Republicans in the state senate a two thirds super majority. And now they’re openly talking about launching impeachment proceedings against Janet Portelet, who is the liberal candidate for the Wisconsin Supreme Court. They’re talking about impeaching and removing her before the election is even held. It’s and you know what? I I think it’s completely plausible.

It is completely plausible. These guys, if you know these guys might actually pull that. So, boy, it’s ugly, the most expensive elections, and they they might pull that shit. Yes. I

know you’ve written about this It’s like my two reactions are, one, it just it feels like we have a broken system that a judicial race has this level of stakes. You know, this is not a way that are, you know, balance of power supposed to break out here. We should have a legislature and the executive should be maybe a little bit more responsible rather than us having to, you know, completely politicize the third branch. But anyway, then my other thought is I thought about this, you know, with some of the responses to the shooting too. Think that there are a lot of people that are out that don’t punish themselves with the goings on of, you know, the median Republican elected official.

That I don’t really appreciate just how insane that person has gotten over the past ten years. Like, we know the big names, you know you know that the Marjorie Taylor Greens are there and that the party you know, that Trump won over round mean that the party’s changed a little bit. Yeah. Like, Joe Republican state senator right now is like a total lunatic. And and we’ve never been sending our best to the state legislature for anybody who who follows state legislative politics.

Closely or spends time meeting state legislators. But man, you know, I just like the radicalization and, you know, how wrapped up they are and in crazy conservative media, you know, nonsense. I don’t know. I I feel like there’s some negative long tail effects of the Trump era

that they’ll be getting a form

of, like, these random state senators who are like, I’m going straight to impeached, you know. Anyway Well, they’ll oh, but then they’ll be around for thirty years. Okay.

So I’m gonna get a lot of pushback this because I do have friends in the legislature still. And what they will say is, look, Charlie Sykes, you know, sixty percent, you know, two thirds of the Republican legislature. Are normies. They’re not the crazies. The problem is though that they continue to empower and enable the crazies.

So the question is, would they stand up? I’m just trying to imagine the the scenario. So judge Janet gets elected, and she, you know, rules to throw out the eighteen forty nine divorce she she throws out the legislative redistricting map. She’s part of a majority that says that that that act ten was unconstitutional. It, you know, changes voting rights laws, etcetera, all of those things.

And then the grassroots demands, you have to do something about this. This is terrible. The radical left has taken over the court. They’ve taken over the state. What are you gonna do about it?

Will they be able and willing to stand up and say, we are not going to misuse the impeachment power of the state legislature. And I don’t know what the answer to that is. Okay. Just a

really quick one sentence on the Colorado thing because I did this deep down a couple weeks ago, folks, had a chance to read it on on what happened to the Colorado Republican Party. What you’re describing is just like it happened to Colorado on steroids. Right, because Democrats ended up winning a lot of seats so that, you know, group of people in the legislature got smaller. Right? Wisconsin has more Republicans in the legislature still.

But, you know, it

was

basically eighty percent normies and twenty percent, you know, tea party wackos for a while. But even, you know, I told the story of the normie speaker at the time, a guy named Franklin Melte that I knew who, like, opposed this very popular civil civil unions bill to shut up the twenty percent of the base. Right? Then, you know, all this urban voters in Colorado are all, like, wait a minute. You’re against civil unions.

This is a crazy Sunday throughout the normies. And so then it ends up flipping. Right? And you end up in this situation where it’s like, oh, okay. Well, now now it used to be eighty, but it’s sixty, and now it’s fifty five.

And, you know, this is where your friends in the legislature. You can just give them a little picture of their future. It’s in Colorado then then they’re forty five percent then they’re forty then they’re thirty percent and it’s like, oh, wait, I’m the only normie left. Now we’ve totally flipped. And that is the trajectory, you know, and some of the normies are

leaving. Okay. So I wanna get to the gun issue. I wanna get to Disney. But the latest Fox News story out of the Dominion lawsuit, I just have to mention this.

I continued to be absolutely Gobsmack and all the stuff they put in writing. I mean, it’s just one of those things. So here’s the latest. And you can tell why why Fox had wanted to redact this in the past. The Fox News CEO said the correspondence fact check of Trump’s election lies was bad four business.

I mean, she just wrote this out. This is Suzanne Scott. I mean, it’s not subtle. So subject line is Fox News, Eric Sean, fact checks. Trump dumb claims.

This has to stop. I’m going to dress this with you and Jay and Lowell tomorrow. This is bad business. And there’s clearly a lack of understanding what is happening in these shows. The audience is furious, and we are just feeding them material bad for business.

Okay. Not a lot of subtlety that

Fact. I mean, let’s write there. You can have a good subtly fact checking. Yeah. And bad for this.

Doing fact checking. Yeah. So it is hard to win a liable suit in America, and I think that’s a good thing. What you have to prove is actual malice or reckless disregard of the truth. So here you have in freaking writing, the CEO of Fox News, saying, we have to stop this fact checking This pointing out that these things are lies because it is bad for business.

So you have you have the smoking gun You have the motive, you have the other two things, just like, but they wrote this out. Is there any gene in their heads go, you know, as they’re typing this going, Maybe I should make a phone call. Maybe I shouldn’t actually write this.

Yeah. No. We’re I don’t know. Maybe we shouldn’t put fact check that for business right next to each other in two sentences. They make a use a little bit more roundabout language to make that point.

And it’s the second one. And this is the second line. This is the CEO. The other one was the host, but it was Jackie Heinrich. That to me was the most alarming thing about all of the first batch of text.

Right? Was Tucker and Hannity, you know, integrated fire, Jackie Hynick, for in that case, it wasn’t even on Fox. It was a tweet. She tweeted a fact check. So this is the second fact check.

Did they go after — Yeah. — you know, the correspondent over it? The legal side of this is the one thing I just I have to admit I don’t understand. I can’t wrap my head around why they didn’t figure out a way to settle this. I I guess maybe the number was just too big, maybe the dominion.

I haven’t got a good answer. I’ve asked several lawyers about this. I I haven’t got a good answer. Some lawyers say that they’re definitely gonna lose. Some lawyers say, oh, because of the high level standard here, Fox might still prevail even though it seems really, really bad.

I’ve had a couple of lawyers tell me that. So I I don’t understand the truth, but this has just been so damn. Well, just imagine the trial. Yeah. It’s so damn but mainly they just have decided they don’t care I guess, maybe they just don’t care.

Maybe they’re just in in, like, they’re fucked you rich at this point. You know that phrase? Like, we’re just fucked you rich. People are gonna watch us no matter what. We don’t care.

We’re not gonna pay you a penny. Or maybe Rupert’s an old ninety two year old man and he’s too stubborn and doesn’t someone has to explain that to me because this has just been Can you think of any other example of a business that has, like, just totally had the mask ripped off and revealed and and such a plain way as as has happened to Fox? It’s such a cartoonish way.

Yeah. It’s a if you and I sat down, we had like a boiler room. We can the fabricate. The worst possible, the most egregious type of emails. We have so and so saying this, like, well, this is a terrible lie and, you know, why are we doing this?

Well, we’re doing this because it’s good for business. I mean and yet it’s it’s all there. Here’s my and I’m gonna be proved wrong very very quickly if I’m wrong. That generally, you know, you have a kind of a game of legal check-in here. And, you know, Fox’s lawyers are, you know, trying to, you know, test all the doorknobs, which ones are, you know, been left unlocked.

And everything. What can they get away with? What can they do? What can they suppress? And then once all of those motions have been taken care of, that’s the go no go moment where they have to decide, do we want to go to a full blown trial where America is going to be riveted by Rupert Murdoch on the stand being eviscerated by the lawyers here or are we going to settle?

And I think that they probably have held off on on that specific decision until they know exactly what the trial is going to be, what is going to be allowed to be admitted in evidence, who is going to be required to testify, hard for me to imagine that they want to put themselves through that. Because whatever reputational damage has occurred so far, it’s nothing compared to day after day of having these guys on the stand. Imagine Tucker Carlson on the stand. Imagine, you know, they’re showing Hannity on the sand. Imagine blue dogs on the stand.

Or Maria Bertaroma. And then you have this other producer. Is it Adi Grossman? Who is blowing the whistle on this? And, I

mean, this is just like is this ugly with fur on it. I guess maybe Maria would be the one person you wouldn’t want to get on the stand because I I just I don’t know how you can prove actual malice with her because she seems to have gone so cuckoo for cocoa puffs that she like, I don’t know if I’m a jury or her. I’m looking at this and I’m like, this insane lady actually believes this. I mean, she thinks that hamburgers eat people. I don’t like I can’t I can’t believe that this was intentional now.

Let’s

judge Janine’s sitting there with a box of wine or that’ll be like, you can’t handle the truth. It would be like that. Hey, folks. This is Charlie Sykes, host of the Bulwark podcast. We created the Bulwark to provide a platform for pro democracy voices on the center right and the center left for people who are tired of tribalism and who value truth and vigorous yet civil debate about politics and a lot more.

And every day, we remind you folks, You are not the crazy ones. So why not head over to the Bulwark dot com and take a look around. Every day, we produce newsletters and podcasts that will help you make sense of our politics and keep your sanity intact. To get a daily dose of sanity in your inbox, why not try a bulwark plus membership free for the next thirty days. To claim this offer, go to the Bulwark dot com slash Charlie Sykes.

That’s the bulwark dot com forward slash Charlie Sykes gonna get through this together. I promise. Okay. So Let’s engage in some rank speculation. Love that.

Love to do that. That’s why I described in my newsletter this morning. Bottom lines, we really don’t know anything about what’s going on in Manhattan, so I wanna just do that caveat. The latest story is the Manhattan Trump grand jury is set to break for a month. I mean, we have been in the indictment holding pattern now for a couple of weeks now and now at turns out that the grand jury examining the alleged alleged alleged nahush money payments to a porn star is not expected to hear evidence in the case for the next month which means that there won’t be any indictment until late April at the very earliest, maybe May.

And, of course, they’re saying, well, these political is reporting that this hiatus is largely due to a previously scheduled hiatus, which I just think that’s Okay. That’s bullshit. Right? I mean, that’s kinda eye wash. That’s that’s pretty flimsy.

So you wanna speculate what’s going on here? I mean, it was, like, a minute. It’s a minute. It’s going to be Tuesday. It’s going be Tuesday.

It’s probably going to be Wednesday. Nah. Maybe not next month or the month after that. What do you think is going on? I

don’t wanna speculate. I’ll let you speculate. I do have a lot of thoughts out it it was reminiscent of a member of women in Pennsylvania that was that county after the twenty sixteen election and they’re like we’re taking the weekend off. What kind of accounting? And it was like, we need a president.

Okay? Like, I know it’s government Bulwark, but you gotta finish counting before you take a vacation, like a month. Long spring break here. It continues to reveal the reality of this, you know, of the supposed elite cabal you know, deep state going after Donald Trump if you sort of were to live and put yourself in the worldview of the you know, put upon the Magna voter who thinks that the the judicial system is coming for them. Once again, kind of proves to be, if there is only cabal, it’s pretty toothless.

It’s a toothless cabal.

So you’re thinking that that juror eight, Karen has has reservations at Disney World. I

don’t know. Karen anymore. We’ve had on too many complaints. We’re doing Todd now. Okay.

Todd’s. Okay. So you’ve juror Todd. It’s married to Karen. And they have reservations down to epcot, and they’re they’re by god, they’re going to go.

Yeah. So they’re only gonna do the grand jury if they could have their month long Greg. Yeah. I don’t know. I have a completely different take than you on this.

Okay, please. Okay. Okay. Worst

case scenario is, of course, the Trump’s campaign of intimidation has taken tall and Alvin Bragg is getting the willows. Okay? And I don’t think that’s what happening, but that’s the worst case. Okay. I can’t.

Okay. Better case scenario? Okay. Now here here we get to the deep state cabal thing. Alright?

Okay. That better case scenario is and this is rank speculation. Just wanna put the asterisk Everything’s still on track. They’re going to indict Trump, but Eldon Bragg has listened to the critics who have been saying that it’s not a good thing for the porn star case to go first. Even people in the never Trump rule are going as unfortunate for that case because that’s the most minor case.

That’s the weakest case. It allows Trump to you know, frame it in such a way that they’re going after me for trivial things. So so what’s actually going on is he’s he’s locked and loaded, but he’s stepping back and because of the timing, to let Georgia and the Department of Justice prosecutors give them a chance to go first Okay. By delaying it, there’s a real chance that there may be other indictments that come first and that he’ll be, you know, number two or number three, number four, who knows? I mean, look, we don’t really know anything, but I think that’s not completely implausible.

That he’s decided that, okay, I’m going to do this, but I do I really wanna be hanging out there? Do I really wanna go first? Is that really in my interest? Is that really smart? And, you know, he can do whatever the hell

he wants. That’s based on Jack or Fani or getting some intel from Jack or Fani. I just don’t really see that. Like, then want to show any cards to him. Or he’s just hoping he’s just like, let’s take a one off and hope that someone else goes Looking at the calendar.

Okay. So If I go now, I’m

definitely first. If I wait until May, I don’t have any, you know, inside information, but there’s a chance that I won’t be the first guy. Now, of course, Best case scenario is that he’s come up with new evidence, new material, and that he’s expanding the indictment to include some of Trump’s more recent threats and everything. As I wrote in a footnote in my in my newsletter today, you put things in footnotes that you don’t really wanna emphasize this. I would not count on this at all.

I I I don’t think that’s what’s going on. I’m I’m just thinking that he’s going, alright, this is my invitation to you guys I’m getting all this bitching and moaning about me going first with this weaker case. Alright. Fine. I’m gonna go with the case, but only give you a little bit of an opening unless unless you guys are, you know, have reservations done in Disney World too.

I don’t know.

I hope That’s right. It would explain the other thing frustrating part about this to me from as a, you know, as a former PR man, what has been puzzling me that I’ve been thinking about. It’s just why if they knew that they were not finished with the grand Bulwark? And they knew that there was this planned, month long vacation coming. Like, why he didn’t shut this all down?

Yeah. You know, over the last week, Right? Like, you could it would be not that hard for Alvin, you know, to be a person close to the investigation to call up Maggie Abramsman and just say, hey, can you throw some ice water on this, you know, and say, like, this is not coming imminently. Yeah. And it wouldn’t have been hard to do that.

Right? Like, I I know that they say, oh, we don’t discuss open case but these kind of things happen all the time. Right? Where something’s getting out of hand in the news and you just got to tamp it down, source close to, And the fact that he didn’t do that, I I mean, I had kind of settled on just incompetence, you know, when in doubt incompetence, but but maybe there’s just a reconsideration.

Maybe. Maybe. I’m going with my rank speculation. I’m I’m like, we’ll we’ll we’ll see. I’m

rooting for it, Charlie. I’m happy. We’re moving we’re moving south. The sun’s gonna shine. You know?

I’m like, I’m I’m staying optimistic today.

So since we mentioned Todd and Karen going down to Disney, talk about this late Disney thing with Florida. Read Wilson.

Nice transition. You’re an old radio crowd. That was all about that. And after the break.

No. No. No. The break comes for Ron. Yeah.

That’s right. But Ron needs to call his off. Because the day before floral lawmakers voted to create a new board overseeing Disney, the Disney aligned old board. Passed an agreement basically neutering the new one to be in effect, not like this. Until twenty one years after the death of the last survivor of King Charlie Sykes third.

I Okay. I like the whimsy of that. Point two two. I love it. Points for style.

So is Rhonda Sanders really committed to taking over and punishing business? Or or is that just sort of, you know, his waving his hand, this is the kind of bully that I can be. I can fight my enemies. This is how tough I am and and dissatisfied with all of this. So how is this gonna play out?

Yeah.

I don’t think that there’s a lot going on. Peter Schorsch, who is a friend and a, I think, a listener. So we’ll see if he listens to this. But he’s a Florida a Florida politics reporter, a long time Florida politics reporter. And it says that there’s some internal personnel.

You always have to, you know, consider that in these sort of local, political, you know, slap fights but sometimes there’s some personal happening, you know. And after Sanjay has some people on his team that were actually, you know, trying to specifically target Disney over whatever past lights. So I think that there’s an element of that. I think there’s an element of DeSantis, you know, feeling like this was a way for him to look tough, you know, tiny d, wanted to puff up his chest, you know, go after, you know, that the mouse Disney has this reputation as and, you know, he could say it’s this woke business and and all these other Republicans that even Trump maybe have been, you know, talked to big game, but nobody’s actually got anything done. And here I am and I took them on and I got done.

I think that in his head he, like, sees that narrative. I was a narrative he was pushing when I went to see him in the villages a couple weeks ago. So I think that had it has taken on you know, some some mythic elements to him, I think, in his own mind, and and so sees this as the contrast. Right? Like, my contrast with Trump is, effective.

I get stuff done. And so that’s why, to me, like, the the there’s a real threat here. You know, the the particulars of who runs the Reedy Creek Board, you know, I don’t think are gonna determine who wins the Republican primary. Mhmm. But this sense, that the scientist is an effective governor, and Trump is this kind of whatever incompetent chaos magnet, is a little bit undermined if the stop will act gets overturned by the courts that don’t say gay acts gets overturned by the courts.

The Disney thing, he gets out flanked by some board members and it’s like all of his things don’t actually turn into anything. And it’s like, oh, you’re just a bunch of it’s just it’s just hot air. Like, how are you different than Trump? Exactly. May I I want kind of the red meat steak instead of the, like, medium well steak over here.

If your bowls are just be hot air. I want the hottest air. You know? So I I don’t know. I I think that there’s potential threat there.

And somebody’s gonna bring that up. Yeah. Yes. No. I mean,

you could certainly imagine certain people bringing this up. So speaking of Disney and the mouse cateers, The most famous mouse cat ear as listeners know is You

have no idea how many people have tweeted me about fucking And

I do I do show show my show my and that feature show

idea how many people have have tweeted

about it. The reason I’m mentioning this is Clearly, you’re a bit of a snowflake on this because you tweeted out attention followers, please stop tagging me in the net Lemoncello gift. Thank you, management. I mean, I swear, over the last forty eight hours, my

mentions, Steve, is all gifts of this mouse get to your lady from nineteen thirty seven. Yeah. I just I I I’d really please stop. I get it. I’m sorry.

I didn’t know she was. It’s okay.

Okay. Just so people know that this is still a sore spot for for mister Miller that Linaette Famiciello who was one of the people I think really responsible for launching Disney is is cultural icon that it is. So I’m just putting this in a little bit of I mean, I would say Mickey and Pluto, but okay. Okay. Yeah.

Mickey Pluto, and that’s when you’re telling probably in in in that order. That’s the metal stand. Alright. So deep breath here. You you wrote a very powerful piece about the school shooting earlier this week.

I have made it clear for more than the last decade that there is no subject that I find more painful to talk about than this. I do think that the shooting up in Newtown kinda really did I can just remind you, I cannot broke me, but also the the frustration and the disgust with the doom loop of talking points that takes place afterward, and that hasn’t changed. But I do wanna talk about this because I keep looking at this and going, if this doesn’t break us what would, you and I both remember, you know, what happened to the country after nine eleven, you know, when when we watched those planes go into the building and, you know, how shocked America was, We launched two wars as a result of this. And yet, we have hundreds of children

now. Still taking off my shoes at the airport, but still exactly.

You know, if if this was Al Qaeda who was coming in and committing these crimes, this country would be on fire. And there would be no real question about whether or not Congress would would take an action. If we had airplanes falling from the sky and killing this many children, we would have, you know, a national emergency. And there’d be no question about whether or not we would pass the regulations necessary. But we have people walking into schools and murdering babies And you pointed this out on on the next Secret Podcast.

And we have Republican congressman is basically saying, there’s nothing we can do about that. We we can’t do anything about it. And you put this in the context of of everything else that, you know, politicians are talking about how we need to protect the children. We need to protect the children against that book. We need to protect those children from the drag queen story hour.

We must protect our children from having to read certain things about race. But when it comes to actually protecting the children from the things that are killing them, yeah, there’s nothing we can do. Okay. So John Stewart had this just amazing exchange, and I know many people have seen it. This is with an Oklahoma state senator who apparently thought that he could handle John Stewart.

He was completely wrong. Here’s just about one minute, near the end of one of their exchanges, where they’re talking about the priorities and what they’re willing to do to protect children. Here’s John Stewart with this. I don’t even remember what his name is. This Republican State Center from Oklahoma.

Let’s play this. You want to ban drag show readings to

children. To my gosh, yes. Why? Why why? What are you protecting?

Why can we prohibit children from voting? Those under eighteen from voting? Why are you banning that? Is is that free speech? Are you infringing on that performers free speech?

They can continue to exercise their free speech just not in front of a child? Why? Because the government does have responsibility to protect. I’m sorry? The government does have responsibility in certain instances.

What’s a leading cause of death amongst children in this country? And I’m gonna give you a hint. It’s not drag show readings to children. Correct? Yes.

So what is it? I’m presuming you’re gonna say it’s firearms. No. I’m not gonna say it, like it’s an opinion, that’s what it is. It’s firearms.

More than cancer, more than car accidents. And what you’re telling me is, You don’t mind infringing free speech to protect children from this amorphous thing that you think of. But when it comes to children that have died, You don’t give a flying fuck to stop that because that shall not be infringed. That is

hypocrisy at its highest on earth. Oh my god, Tim. That is just brutal. That is just brutal and brilliant. At the same time.

Yeah. Think about how much of the culture war is just designed to protect children against these injuries. And and how we’re willing to We’re going to pass these laws and have these restrictions and step on the first amendment, etcetera. And yet when it comes to this, well, can’t do it.

And this was, you know, my one friendly disagreement with with Rowan in your discussion yesterday. It’s just that I I do think that that what John Stewart just laid out is a winner for people that are on the pro action on gun side of things. So for the people that aren’t supportive of these so called reforms in Florida and other places where they want to ban Antanko makes three and, you know, not have, you know, make sure that libraries can’t do drag queens I think it makes them look preposterous. I I think that there is a big majority of the country that is on the John Stewart side of that debate and doesn’t doesn’t care about whether the government gets involved in dragging me in story hour and does care about these extremely traumatic mass shootings. You know what?

I I think that the gun issue I would tell you it’s like a half hour next level. I could talk about this forever because I hear that people get frustrated and people don’t wanna talk about it and are already pressing the plus thirty on this conversation right now to get to the Chris Christie part. I get that. But I I’m not gonna start talking about it. You know, I I was formed by this issue, I think, having lived a mile from Columbine when I was in high school.

And it’s the thing that I’ve changed my views the most on. I know a lot of people in my generation who have changed their views on this, you know, who have come around, people who are more conservative temporarily or who are W voters? Who are parents now? Who are fucking sick of this? Who are secular kids having to do active shooter drills?

Who are fed up? And I think that it’s a winning issue now for Democrats. And I think that that what Republicans are doing is wrong on the merits. It’s immoral. And it’s also a political loser if the fight is fought, and if people are not willing to just say, okay, well, I’m moving on from this one today.

Know, you can only see this with you Vaulty. Vaulty is not really being talked about that much anymore. I I know it’s painful, but, like, it

needs to be continued to talk about. The one other thing on this is I did see Liz Cheney weigh in on this yesterday. Who? Yeah. Exactly.

I can’t remember

her.

Yeah. Yeah. She was in Congress. Yeah. It’s been a while.

It has. Where’s she been? I guess she’s teaching. She’s working on a book. I guess I don’t know.

Okay. I’d like to see more from her too. I thought it was interesting that she sent this tweet. And here’s why. Because it matches my my prior opinion.

And what what I think is correct in in my experience, which is that you know, when she was in Congress, she’s this hard line, down the line conservative. Right? And she was not a moderate. Anyway, her head cruise voting record was probably identical. And she now gets his freedom to kind of be true to herself because of what happened on January sixth and her brave stand on January sixth.

She gets his freedom and She votes with Biden on the gun reform bill, you know, which is a good first step, and she votes with the democrats on that one of just fourteen Republicans. And now she’s speaking out on this on Twitter. It’s not that Liz Cheney has become a liberal. Right? It’s not that Liz Cheney is now for government regulation and wants to raise tax and, you know, wants to be an isolationist.

Right? She hasn’t changed her view of all this stuff. She’s just now, I think, free as a mom and another person who’s lived through this. To speak out about this because the fucking facts have changed. Yep.

You know, like in nineteen ninety nine, it was maybe reasonable to be like, hey, maybe we should arm more teacher And that’s the answer. Maybe if the gym coach at Colambion had a gun, this wouldn’t have been solved. That was a crazy then in retrospect, but maybe you could understand it’s reasonable. Now twenty five years later, it’s not reasonable anymore. And I think that the fact that that is the issue that she is changing on and speaking out on I think shows that there’s a lot of people like that if you just free them from the political, you know, manacles.

I agree with everything you said. In terms of how ridiculous Republicans look when they’re put in this position. But having

said that, okay? Okay. Now here’s my deep breath. I don’t give a shit whether it’s a winner or not. This is a life or death issue, and whether it’s a winner or not, essentially saying that we can’t be a country that sacrifices our children.

In this particular way. And I have to say that I know you feel probably the same way. One of the reasons why I think this is so powerful, but also so scary and difficult to talk about. Is if you are a parent or a grandparent, you are absolutely terrified about this. You know, the worst nightmare you can imagine is to have one of your children go off to school and something like this happen.

And I think that we’re getting the sense that no place is immune. There’s no place that you can go. Where this might not happen. And you can imagine, you know, sending your baby off to school and having this happen. I can imagine one of my three granddaughters going off to school.

And if this had a right now, this is a greater fear for parents than I think almost anything you can think about. Everything else is kind of abstract. This feels very urgent. And the callousness and the complete paralysis that we’ve seen since twenty twelve on all of this. Is highlighted every time it happens.

You know, that congressman who said, well, there’s nothing we can do about it. Basically, what he’s saying is, given the nature of politics, given the fact that if I want to not be primary and defeated in the Republican primary, I have to go along with all of this. You know, I have to continue to sacrifice children on on this altar. So this is not something that I’ve changed my mind on since Trump. I wanna make this very clear.

You know, twenty twelve was one of the the moments that broke me. Watching the NRA, watching the right decide that they are not going to change direction to acknowledge the horror of what happened up in Newtown. And I just since then, I just cannot take those people seriously. I don’t wanna listen to them, and I think that many of them are just out of their fucking minds. When they talk about this particular issue.

If Newtown did not change the dynamic of this issue, then nothing would. And I think we’ve seen that over and over and over and over again. Also, I want to make a point that JVL made. On the next level podcast that I don’t agree with it at all, but, you know, there are second amendment purists out there who take intellectual position. But there’s no defense whatsoever for the people who, you know, post these dick pics of themselves and their families holding these weapons of of mass destruction of mass murder.

The people who set out the Christmas cards where they’re holding the, you know, AR fifteen and their, you know, their daughters are, you know, holding some, you know, weapon of mass destruction like that. I mean, that’s just freaking obscene, turning it into a fetish. Even in a society where we can’t legislate this you would think that there would be a modicum of decency in an environment where children aren’t being blown apart by these fucking things that you don’t wear it as a lapel pin, that you don’t make a joke out of it, that you don’t pose in hot pants with it. Is that really too much to ask? Well, apparently, it is for these motherfuckers.

Okay. There there’s the explicit rating.

Yeah. Okay. Well, that’s good. I’m I’m with

you. And the twenty twelve thing, just really quick. I mean, this got cut from my book because it’s just kind of not really relevant. I know it’s a little gratuitous.

After NuTim, So I’m at the R and C during Newtown. And I was walking around, and at the time, my boss is is Sean Spiser. And I’m in his office. I’m saying to him, like, we can’t just come out for, like, magazine limits. Right?

Like, I’m not saying we should go do confiscation. Right? But it’s like, we can’t come up with something, you know, so that at least if some deranged lunatic walks into the school, they have to, like, pull the trigger. You know, I did have to reload their fucking weapon after they fire it off, you know, a few times. And he was like, no.

No. We can’t. And it was a very dispirating day for me. It probably should have been more enough of a dispirating day to, like, wake me up. It shouldn’t have taken four years later to wake me up, but I can’t even get myself into that mindset, right, that we can’t do anything about this.

Because it’s for the dead kids that have been blown apart, which you, you know, had to that is the amazing newsletter about about just what happens to their bodies. That that’s part of it. But this trauma goes, it’s the whole generation. It’s that kid in in Michigan. In college, who has been in two school shootings now?

Remember that? There were so many. I can’t even remember what the what the high school was. It was like he went to high school in Ohio and went to college in Michigan and and was at a school shooting both times. Like, what does that do to you?

Are you watching the video listening to these haunting sirens? Being the parent waiting for oh, wait, is it my kid? You know, so they’re all these communities. The impact of it expands a lot farther than Eli knew again — Yeah.

— on the politics of this. I mean, I wanna stress that I just think this is just a fundamentally moral cultural issue that we have here. But just on the politics of this, I think the vast majority of gun owners don’t disagree with us. You know, the the NRA, you know, portrays itself as speaking for them But I remember when I was, you know, a conservative talk show host, and I would open up the phone lines and ask people, you know, what do you think about? You know, people who, you know, bring AR15’s open carry, you know, into a, you know, a farmer’s market up in Appleton.

The vast majority of people said that that’s crazy. Am I asked people, what do you think of these proposals? To allow people to carry concealed weapons without a background check, without permits, without any sort of training whatsoever. And it was the gun owners who were the ones to call up to say, we think that’s crazy. And you ask people, what do you think about expanding background checks?

A lot of these things and it’s eighty percent of people going, yes, absolutely. And yet, this is one of those issues where Republicans are neatly held hostage by the most extreme, most reckless players on their team. Okay. You wanna talk about Chris Christie? Because I know you got the movers coming any minute now.

Chris Christie.

Well, yeah, I think we’ve got a healthy debate over Chris Christie. I am just gonna drop a couple more f bombs here if we keep on it. Yeah. Fuck it. Yeah.

Let’s do it.

I have some f bombs for Chris Okay. So in my newsletter today, and I do have a language warning on this. I do, you know, replay some of, you know, what my imaginary conversation with Chris Christie would be because I don’t. I

think he should do the podcast, by the way. I I’m for it. I think you were joking at the end of the newsletter, but I don’t know if you’re joking or serious, but I don’t think you I’m for it. If he’s such a tough guy. If he’s so strong, and he’s such a good debater.

What’s he afraid of? That’s my thing. Like, he should be talking to to outlets like this, like ours. Never Trump outlets.

I have mixed feelings about him as it laid out because I can remember, you know, when he decided that he was gonna be the shine box and he’s standing behind Donald Trump, the role he played in legitimizing Donald Trump, you know, cannot be minimized. And so I would have some strong words for him about that. But then the question and is, alright, is it possible that he could be the guy on that debate stage who is punching Donald Trump in the face not gonna be Rhonda Sanders. It’s not going to be Nikki Haley. If you want somebody to take the fight to Donald Trump as Nikitazio wrote Chris Christie is probably the only game in town right now.

So despite all of the such words, or things we’d like to say to him, You know, is it better or worse that Chris Christie is up

there willing to punch Donald Trump in the face? Rhetorically speaking peacefully, of course. I don’t know. I I wouldn’t mind of hitting you. Nick Catagio’s article and I love alla — Mhmm.

— is, like, porn. I mean, honestly, it’s fantasy porn. And I you know, every once in a while, somebody’s porn fantasy comes to life, and they just get that lucky day. For them, and I’m supportive of that. And maybe that’ll be this for us.

Maybe it’ll happen. I just to me, Chris Christie is Cartman. From South Park. He talks a big game when he’s making fun of the, you know, weak little, you know, kid with the blanket. But, like, when he acts actually has to stand up to somebody.

He runs away. It’s off front. Well, we’ll see. And he can yell at a teacher. He can yell at some like local news at seven reporter.

But he’s gonna do this. He’s gonna stand up on six. Maybe eight. If he doesn’t, I’ll be I’ll come on this podcast and out for the first time in eight years, I’ll say. Chris Christie Good on you, bud.

Yeah. Thank you for doing this. I’m happy you did it. If he’s gonna do it. I’m just saying, Shaul, I’m not joining the Chris Christie fan club until I see something.

And him going out there at this town hall Again, he’s supposed to be this great debater. He gets out debated by the sixty seven year old guy who’s, like, what he’s talking about? I knew Trump was bad. And silence in the crowd out but out debated him. And then he’s attacking Mike Pence and DeSantis.

I’m having some PTSD. I’m having some PTSD. Okay. I thought you’re gonna get in they’re used to get after Trump, but now you’re making fun of DeSantis and Pence. I I thought this for the point, this was this was a this was a Sumo Kamikazi mission after Trump.

Doesn’t seem like it to me. So I don’t know. I mean, I think it’s much more likely that he’s gonna sit on his couch and pour the small M and M box into the big M and M box try to get attention from John Carl, and people don’t wanna give him free press. And until then, if he does it, great. But I lived with us.

Chris Christie, I, in my opinion, is more responsible for Donald Trump than any politician. Oh, I agree. He took out Marco when Marco had a chance to beat him and then he endorsed Trump for no. He was the like, Trump’s only main endorsement was, like, Jeff Sessions when Chris Christie endorsed him. You know, he he was the coverage big.

It was it was really big. And so, again, If he does it, great. I will give him an out of boy. But until then, I’m not gonna engage in the in the porn fantasy. We’ll see.

I think that skepticism is justifiable. And by the way, you you know, Nick Catagio, who, you know, pendant, formerly known as ala pendant, does write about how maybe Christy is the only guy in town. But in fairness to him, he also lays out the the alternative scenario, which is that that Christie could once again help Trump by blowing up his rivals like he did with Marco Rubio back in twenty sixteen. So he could get up on that stage and he could be the one to deliver the roundhouse punch that takes out Rhonda Sandoz. Like, when you were going through the various things that Rhonda Sandoz had done that were being thrown out by the courts, I could really almost hear in my head Chris Christie just pounding the crap out of him.

Where’s the beef for on? Where actually, you did these things, but you got outmaneuvered by the Disney board. You got thrown off by Rodger, I could see him taking out the scientists and clearing the way for Trump like he did back in twenty sixteen, so that is a possibility. And and Nicotage who does recognize that. So you think I should invite him on the podcast?

I don’t know if he’s gonna come. I mean, I understand. He

does. Nicotage who yeah. I mean, I I don’t think Chrisco wants to interview with me. This staff don’t really like me very much after some of my they didn’t like my jokes on Twitter for the years,

which I

get, which is fair for the cartman thing. Yeah. Yeah. It’s not that nice. But Look, here’s my what I would say to Christy or Nikki Haley or any of these folks in that lane is and I felt the same way about cinema.

I do think that they should do your podcast. It’s like, if you can’t

If you can’t handle Charlie Sykes, you’re not gonna be able to handle Donald Trump. That that’s pretty clear. Right? If you can’t handle this guy in his base meant in Mecha on Wisconsin. Yeah.

How are you gonna take on Donald freaking Trump?

I wasn’t gonna talk to you down. I was saying the opposite. I was saying can’t win over the percentage of this audience. Now some of this some of your audience obviously are people that would never without a Republican primary, but of the people that were never Trumpers used to be Republicans, people that are open to the idea of supporting a Republican or primary. If you can’t win over those people who listen to this podcast, Right?

And answer these questions. Right. Then how the fuck are you gonna win a primary? Who are you gonna win? The dispatch, I guess, should be your base or the national review or something?

But, like, these should be part of your co If you can’t win over a single person who loses Secret Podcast, then what the fuck are you doing? What’s the point of being in this race? So,

yeah, I I do think you should do it. Yeah. Right. Well, you’ve talked me into it. We’ll make the ask.

I’ll report back. Okay. No. I won’t be on. That might help you.

You’re lost. I was gonna die. Let’s say, I I didn’t even know Tim. We had this thing about a net food nachello. And after that, we just had to make an agreement to take a break from one another.

So, you know, please do not blame me for. You can take the Friday slot. Do not blame me for Tim Miller. Tim, good luck with the move. Pretty exciting coming up in about a minute.

So I appreciate you joining me and we’ll talk next Friday on Good Friday.

And and then you’re gonna be on the road. Right. Or do that? On the road with Tim. Then we’re hitting the road.

I’m doing the southern road trip. I’ve never done this one. I’m doing a hipster desert road trip, you ready for this. Joshua Tree, Bizbee, Arizona, Martha. Wow.

So that’s that song that we’re gonna do southern road trip. You did the northern one as a kid, and so maybe I’m hoping Toulouse has a memory of cactuses in the desert, and we’re gonna do a desert five day road trip to New Orleans. I’m

looking forward to it. Five days. Then we’re

gonna take our time. You know, lay by the pool.

I am jealous. We’re taking you time. I’m not

gonna do the old man. Oh, you gotta pee in a cup, you know, kind of red trip. Now we’re gonna do, you know, a reasonable eight or so hours a day, sit by the pool for a couple hours. And have make a little make a little vacation out of x. Have some family time.

I’m looking forward to it.

I wanna hear all of the reports and thank you all for listening to today’s Bulwark podcast. Moving back tomorrow and do this all over again. Secret Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.