Why Are People Still Sticking With Trump After All This?

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark podcast. I’m your host Tim Miller Charlie Sykes be back from vacation. Thank God next week. Two quick plugs for the podcast people. Please go to the Bullerch YouTube page.

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And next, if you haven’t checked out the Sunday next level interviews, this is your moment to do it. Every week, we offer some lighter weekend fare, bringing in non political folks, or having more fun career oriented talks with people in politics this Sunday, me and Sarah Longwell to Jenasaki, next Sunday, me and JBL have Ben Mackenzie from the o c. We talked about his crusade against crypto and also what it was like to be Ryan Atwood. So that is that. On today’s pod, You can hear a giggling already.

I have my friend, Alyssa Sarah Longwell Republican operative, Trump comes director, boo. Hosted the view, and fresh off her start term being profiled and why we did it, Alyssa. Thank you for doing this.

Yeah. You mentioned the most important biographical note last I’m one of the many stars of your excellent book.

Oh, well, thank you. I wanna do some new stuff with you. And I I wanna do a little just like a politics check. But for people who didn’t, you know, read the book or who don’t know your full story and who are like, Tim, why are you having the former Trump White House coms director on the Bulwark podcast? We don’t like Trump here.

If we could just revisit a few things that that we’ve covered a couple times first. And I wanna start in Charlie Spirit by asking the same question he asked Chris Christie a couple weeks ago, which was, what in the hell were you thinking?

Well, I spent a lot of time still asking myself that But on a personal note, I think that everyone’s a work in progress, and I I think I still ask myself the question of specifically the move I made going from my role that department of defense to the Trump White House, kinda high to COVID, March twenty twenty. And I don’t know like, I could spend the rest of my life debating. Should I have made that move? Should I have not? Should I have gone into the administration in the first place?

I I did working for vice president Pence. And I still kinda have the same conclusion I gave you in your book, which I knew you found unsatisfactory, which is you can’t give up on the American presidency. He was at that point, like, he was gonna be there until he lost the election. So I think people of good faith need to go in. And I say that now, I think it’s even more pressing because there’s, you know, not a zero chance he’s gonna be president again.

I would never work for him again. A lot of us who have spoken out would never work for him again, but I hope, man, that there’s some good people on the margins who are gonna try to get into that administration both to keep it on course, but also to be the whistle blowers after the fact because you know we’re gonna need them.

Really? So we’re a year out. This is where I was going. We’ve argued about this probably five times over the course of interviewing you for the book and then a couple after haven’t talked about it in a year and, you know, you have a little bit of distance. So for people who don’t get the crux of argument was basically, I was on the side of Going into the Trump administration ended up only corrupting people, and it didn’t make that big of a difference in the in the grand scheme of things, and it only kind of served to protect Trump and they ended up getting Tard, you know, rather than on balance doing more to contain him.

I think there are a couple of exceptions to that. Obviously, National security. I don’t begrudge somebody becoming the national, you know, HR McMaster. I don’t begrudge. Though I do kind of begrudge the fact that he hasn’t seemed to endorse Joe Biden since since then, that’s for another But Alyssa came down on the side of no, you know, government still needs to work.

We need people to be in there. Here we are now. We’re in year eight of Trump, he’s about to be the nominee again, it seems like. We can punt it on that at the end if you want. Maybe that’s not true, but, like, Do you not look at it now and start to think, man.

Honestly, maybe there were some other off ramps here.

Oh, well, that for sure. I’ve talked about a number of different times I thought about resigning during my time with him. But what I think you have to understand with me, Tim, is I didn’t get to kinda where you are until really January of twenty twenty one, which I know for a lot of your listeners is unacceptable. How did you believe this for so long? How are you complicit within?

I genuinely thought that there was something worth saving there until I saw that there wasn’t. So for me, on the personal side, this was a bit of learning. And to be honest, even where I am ideologically, politically, and a partisan matter now is defined by a lot of what I saw. And not to get deep. I’m kinda grateful for the journey.

Like, my time Let’s

get deep.

No. No. Let’s get deep. Like, my time at DOD made me realize you know, we’re one team, one fight. The jerseys we wear, the partisan politics, genuinely don’t matter when, like, world affairs are stake, the future of democracy is at stake.

So I think that period really was changing how I viewed government politics and public service, and then to be rest into the Trump West Wing, which is chaos and worse than you even imagined from the books. It was an instructive time to be there to realize how off the rails things can get when you don’t have people with that mindset. What I’m dedicated to is making sure that man is never president again. I worry that he could be. Listen, I’ve said this to my liberal friends and I say, oh, wait, to my bulwark friends.

Y’all are staking the future of US democracy on the back of eighty year old Joe Biden who has had a largely successful presidency in terms of legislation, in terms of supporting Ukraine, but God forbid anything happen, and I think it’s a very strong chance Donald Trump’s president again.

Yeah, I wanna get a deal Joe Biden with you towards the end, but I I now that you have come around to the perspective of there isn’t anything savable there. Why then do you think that so many people continue to enable it? I mean, That’s the hardest part for me. And we discussed this a little bit in the book. It was like, you bail, you know, at the end after the election during the stop to steal stuff on the administration.

My editor want me to end with you because you were kind of the optimistic part of the book. It’s like, see people can turn. People can see the light. You know, we can and I was like, no. No.

No. No. We’re gonna end with Caroline who doesn’t see the light. That’s where we are. And and like because that’s the reality.

Right? Is that you bail? And I wanna talk about a couple other people who bailed with you, but I but really, most people have all come back into some level of accommodation with him. I don’t know, you were closer to me. I was too far out at this point like, why is that?

Like like why are so many people not, you know, why are you on the outs now? Shouldn’t everybody be speaking from Alyssa’s hymnbook? Isn’t it just that obvious at this point?

One would think, and there was about a three week period there in, like, January, February of twenty twenty one where sort of felt like there was gonna be a page turn, you know. Yeah. Nikki Haley took a bold stance at the winter r and c meeting. But everyone flocked back. Listen.

There’s the cultish side of Trump that is the explanation for the hold he has on voters, and there’s a lot you can unpack there. But The industry of politics is is something very different. The people who are with him, the Caroline runs of the world, the whoever of the world They’re in it for money. There’s a whole cottage industry around Trump that’s a billion dollar plus industry when you think of the media apparatus, Fox, OAN, News Max. You think of the consulting apparatus.

The many different packs, super packs, LLCs, things making money off of you know, America first and the Trump name. People aren’t not turning on him because they’re like, oh, I really believe in this guy and I just can’t shake him. He has become the establishment of the Republican Party, and it’s become something where you will lose opportunities if you walk away from and may I just say as a point of personal privilege, Those of us, like — Please.

—

capacity, Sarah Longwell, myself, who speak out, Olivia Troy. We all get called grifters. And I was like, I didn’t work for like a year. I was taking the most random clients to even make ends meet. The grifters are the ones who stay by.

Don’t tell the truth so they can be on Fox News in big consulting contracts, but neither here nor there.

I obviously agree with that. Though, this is the thing that frustrates me. I just think that this is like it’s accepted. Oh, these people aren’t in for money. Oh, it’s like, well, you weren’t in it for money.

Like, we talked about this. Like, you weren’t in it for money. You were in it because there’s a combination of factors of, oh, I think it we should have good people in there and oh, there’s some ideological factors and oh, a little bit maybe a little bit of ego like the job is good. Right? Like, there’s a combination of different factors, but it wasn’t money.

He didn’t get Rich working for Mike Esper. And so still, there are other people with other motivations. Like, I look back to the sin of where we are right now, and and I wanna get your take on this. Of that conviction vote in the senate. Were you talking to anybody around that time?

Like, we wouldn’t have to be this is the thing that frustrates me. Like, I wanna call Josh Holmes and just be like, you could have made a ton of money. Mhmm. If Mitch McConnell just convicted this guy and you guys have anointed Ryan to Santos, maybe you wouldn’t have stuck, he’s not a good campaigner. We’ll talk about that.

But you could’ve enjoyed it somebody more normal, and you could’ve gone back to the money machine. Why didn’t they do that? Do you talk to any of those people?

Like Yeah.

I mean, I was I was in those articles of the impeachment. My my words were, and I was calling around staff I don’t know if I talked to any senators at that period, but staff level, people you would know, like, what are we doing? And everyone was, like, convinced the Democrats were gonna get enough votes and enough Republicans would go over. I don’t know to convict but that’s the area where I’ll always have a tremendous amount of respect for Mitch McConnell, but, like, you could help turn the page on this too.

Yes.

Yeah. Not a lot of heroes there. And the funny thing is a lot of people in those worlds would have loved nothing more than for Donald Trump to go on the ash heap of history and never have to deal with them again. But then as soon as he came back, they were like, oh, we’re back. We’re with you.

It’s kind of an exercise in political coward as

So are you still talking to does any does that world because I’m out. Like none of these people call me anymore. Like, when you’re talking to folks who are still in, like what are they saying to you? Like are they just like, oh, listen, we’re gonna have to ride this thing out for four more years?

Yeah. We’re gonna ride it out. He’s, you know, he’s brings money into the party. There’s a lot of justifying if he’s better than Biden. And, like, you’ll remember, I was I was on the hill working with a lot of oversight numbers, freedom caucus, and the Obama era.

And we They

realized he tried a coup.

Yes. That then I genuinely believed that what we were doing, whether it was, you know, stopping certain spending bills or blocking nominees or trying to hold people accountable, Like, that to me, I was like, this is so important. Nothing matters more. I’m like, I don’t know how you possibly transplant that mindset to be like, Joe Biden is so much worse when you’re dealing with Donald Trump. Like, it doesn’t compute.

And I think a lot of my friends on the right know that, but they can’t say it.

But they could have done it.

I’m all determined.

During that period. And they could have done it during that period in January, in February. Right? And they just didn’t. This this takes me to the Sarah and Cassidy.

You worked with and Cassie a little bit or talk to them, helps them through their testimony, which I thought was so important to to the January sixth committee. And I just am unbelievably feels weird to say I’m proud of them, feels condescending. Like, it makes me feel pride, maybe. It’s a better way to put it than that they did it. Why do you think?

Did they gather the gumption that all of these grown ass men couldn’t.

That’s the right way to say it fills me with so much pride, and I’m, like, in awe of both of them. I mean, listen, maybe we need to start electing more women because in the aftermath of January sixth, I saw it was, frankly, young women who were the people willing to stand up and have way more courage than men, you know, three times their age. But listen, they still have the moral clarity that maybe a lot of folks who’ve been in DC too long and kinda sold their souls don’t have. Sarah and Cassie are two of my best friends, and you know, not speaking for them. They would never make a decision based on, oh, I know this is wrong, but what doors might it open in the future, or what money might be there in the future.

And it was just tremendous moral clarity, but also a feeling of duty to the nation. They did get to serve in that White House. That’s something it’s a once in a lifetime experience that you know, many people won’t ever have, and they know that they have a duty to the public.

Are they mad at their bosses? Are you mad at your bosses? How do you feel like, Where’s Mark Meadows? You can pick on a few hundred, you don’t have to, but I I Where are these people? The people that hired you all, that that you worked for,

I’ve come up with if you stay in DC long enough, all your political heroes will disappoint you and all your favorite bars will close. I mean, Mark Meadows was, like, a second father to me. I I tribute a lot of success that I had to his trust in me and opportunities he gave me. But when the rubber met the road, this man that I had chosen to believe was a leader and was trying to do the right thing turned out to be the worst version of what everyone had told me about him for many years. Which was the loyalty was to Trump, to the future that it might bring to him, not to the country, not to the constitution.

I do think he’s cooperating with DOJ. I think that he has so much legal exposure. He doesn’t have a choice not to, so I think that’s why we’re not hearing from him. But to allow Cassidy to go up there, tell the truth that he knew when he was unwilling to, take what that did. I mean, that turned your life upside down.

She was twenty six years old. What’s she

doing now? I don’t even know.

I mean, she’s laying like she does have a book coming out though, which she was very hesitant do. And I’m glad she did because I think it’s a story that needs to be told. But he allowed her to basically take all the flak, the death threats, the, you know, invasions of her privacy that he was unwilling to take.

I mean, that just fills me with rage. It’s like, what a p word. How are Cassidy and Sarah Longwell, not just filled with anger about that? You said something interesting to me. You were like, when I finally decided to go speak out, right, in about two weeks before three weeks whenever it was.

You remember six weeks before the interaction. Like, I thought there’s gonna be a line of people behind me. And you you said something I don’t have to quote in front of me to do something. It was, like, that was the last moment of naivete that I that I show. Like, I had some naivete about how I could make it prince with Trump, and then I just the the naivete continued all the way up through thinking that people follow my lead.

They have gotta have felt that way too. Right? Like once they said that they would do it, that some of their bosses.

There aren’t words to express the frustration and I think I’m past the place of anger with it. It’s more just not even disappointment. It’s like, I’m embarrassed for the men who didn’t speak for the adults who were there and knew it was happening and still have it, we’ll get there, but it kind of brings me to this primary season of none of the people in this race with maybe one or two exceptions, see Donald Trump any differently than you to Miller and Melissa Fair Griffin see him, but they’re not saying it. They’re not challenging him. They’re not telling the public what they actually think.

So it’s an issue that runs, you know, even higher up than the Mark Meadows’s of the world because the biggest joke in the Republican Party is pretty much everyone has Trump’s number. They know that he’s unfit. He is morally mentally incapable of being the president of the United States. He doesn’t have the character or the integrity, and he’s a threat to democracy. It’s just there’s not many people who are willing to say it.

My last question on this is, I wonder now it’s a little bit of distance from everything. You know, your earlier said I wanna get deep on it and you’re kind of we’re glad that you went through the journey. I get calls, fewer and fewer by the years now because I’m just so far away. So I’m sure you get these calls from people who are trying to decide, oh, should I work for DeSantis, oh, should I should I work for Trump even like, oh, should I work for like, oh, should I think how should I think about this? Should I speak out?

Should I say things? I’m just wondering like, What is the lesson that you learned from your experience? And is there anything that you kind of regret that you look back on that you sort of offer to them as a as a word of caution?

I regret not speaking out sooner about Trump’s unfitness. I think that the line I should have drawn was June of twenty twenty, during the social justice protest around George Floyd’s murder. He demonstrated just tremendous unfitness at every turn. Statements he wanted to put out moments that called for peace and unity, putting out, you know, vitriol rhetoric that was only gonna increase the violence in the protest. That, I think, would have been a very logical moment to leave.

I recently caught up with my friend, doctor Fauci, spoke for a brief moment about that period, and he he did say, you know, he’s like, I was grateful you stayed because there was an effort by many and this this was in the back of my head. I was like, who’s going to look out for doctor Birx, doctor Fauci, and these doctors who pretty much every day it was a you were wrestling with making sure Trump didn’t fire them on the spot and hire some sort of lunatic with no infectious disease background. So that gives me a little bit of pause and at least in retrospective clarity that I’m like, okay, someone was grateful I was there. For people who are in those books, because I do still talk to a number. And I I have a I have friends on nearly every campaign I think right now or people I still talk to, and the advice I give them is the sooner, the better.

Like, my biggest regret is that I didn’t speak out sooner, and you’re gonna look back and it’s more things you have to try to explain away or take accountability for. So

So you said it so I have to do one follow-up on looking back. It’s the before the election. I mean, say all the other stuff about the Trump stuff, but that’s the thing. Like, if I you know, we’ve now had this conversation a million times. I’m not, like, wagging my finger at you.

But if I’m like, I look at this and I’m like, we are desperate for people. And, like, would a less affair have been the person that made the difference in Pennsylvania? Probably not. Right? And this was arguing you made to me, but still, like if there was a critical mass of people who were like, we were in here, we saw this, he’s bad.

We have to stop it. Like, you have to suck it up for Joe Biden. I’m gonna vote for a Republican again next time. Like, I’m not a democrat. You know what I mean?

Like and we couldn’t get anybody to do that. It was Olivia and Elizabeth. God love them. You know? But I we’re trying to recruit everybody.

I was trying to get John Kelly and HR. And anyway, so that’s the thing I just looked back on.

Yeah. No. I I I think that’s fair. And listen, like, you know, I did vote for him in twenty sixteen. I’m still the republican.

Like, I I figured you’d ask me this question twenty twenty four, assuming it’s Biden versus Trump, I’m writing in. Now would my answer that question be different if I lived in Bucks County, Pennsylvania? Probably. I’m a Republican voting in Manhattan. Probably.

Probably. Not really, but fundamentally be different. If I was in a swing state where I thought it was a critical vote, but I am dissatisfied with what both parties are putting up. I do believe Trump is ten times more dangerous for the future of America, may it even be here than, obviously, Joe Biden. But I don’t want to fall into sort of this binary that’s been constructed for us that I don’t agree with.

But if I was like the life or death vote, of course, I would vote for buying an overdraft.

Hey, folks. This is Charlie Sykes, host of the Bulwark podcast. We created the bulwark to provide a platform for pro democracy voices on the center right and the center left for people who are tired of tribalism and who value truth and vigorous yet civil debate about politics and a lot more. And every day, we remind you folks. You are not the crazy ones.

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We have some real news to get to, but just a little palate cleanser after that conversation. It’s about the most disgusting palate cleanser you can get. Actually, so a reverse palate cleanser for us first. Let’s listen to our friend, Charlie Kirk, on his podcast yesterday. If we would have said that Joy Reid and Michelle Obama and Sheila Jackson Lee and Catangie Brown Jackson were affirmative action picks.

We would have been called the racist. But now they’re coming out and they’re saying it for us. They’re coming out and they’re saying, I’m only here because affirmative action. Yeah. We know.

You do not have the brain processing power to otherwise be taken really seriously. You had to go steal a white person slot to go be taken somewhat seriously. Yeah. I saw what you mouthed there. It was it was a curse word.

So I know that you I cuss on this podcast. No pressure on YouTube. What the fuck is right? We don’t need to do that. That’s racist because that’s racist thing.

Everybody though, what I wanna ask you about is going to Charlie Kirk not everybody, but Josh Holly, Ted Cruz, Donald Trump, even Ayson Hutchinson, other are going to Charlie Sykes TPUSA thing this weekend, even the people who aren’t going, nobody is gonna speak out about that. Like doesn’t that give you pause about the whole party? Like, the guy is influential as Charlie Sykes, and nobody is like, no. We can’t go to this fucking conference. We can’t go to conference with a guy who’s out there staying that black women are taking white people’s jobs?

Well, a couple of things. I mean, it says so much about the state of the party that are intellectual leaders and quotes are Charlie Sykes, who I don’t even believe graduated college, which is fine if he seemed to have the intellect that would require leadership.

Well,

this isn’t a goodwill hunting situation. We

did college, and

he was like reading a bunch of books in the library on the side. I don’t like that’s what we’re talking about.

Aside from being racist, it’s such an intellectually shallow and cheap point that he’s trying to make. He’s misunderstanding what the and I have my issues with affirmative action. My general take is that I think there should be it should account for all aspects of diversity, socioeconomic, race, obviously as a factor. But I think that, you know, the poor kid from Appalachian also is gonna need a leg up if they’re the first person in their family to go to college. He’s not understanding that the barriers that were there were because of race.

It’s not like they got the spot because they were inferior to a white person and they had to take it. It’s about overcoming every aspect of barriers to get to the place. But neither here nor there. No. Listen, we’re screwed in this moment.

I mean, when Benny freaking Johnson and Charlie Kirk are our intellectual leaders, it’s a really dark place for the party. I’m prepared to give up on it. I appreciate that we’ve got, you know, a Chris Christie in the race who’s telling the truth. We’ve got a will hurt who’s telling the truth and talking about the future. And by the way, acknowledging that the Republican Party does have a race issue.

In ASSA to some degree, though, I’m disappointed he’s going to this platform. Let’s see

what he says. Let’s see what he says. I didn’t mean to gladi, so I I did me too. But, like, it was more of a point that, like, it’s just accepted to go to this thing. But, like, my point bring up ASSA was not really to condemn him, but so much to be like, even the people that are acting in good faith about Donald Trump, nobody’s still willing to go this.

Right? Like there’s nobody that’s like standing up and saying, guys, I’m still conservative, but I’m not gonna go along with this racist I’m not gonna go along with the election project. And Charlie Sykes starting to try to do that, but but man, you know, there’s it feels like people run up to the ceiling even when they try to say the right thing and they’re like, well, I still gotta I still gotta stay in good with Charlie Sykes. Or else the TP USA kids won’t like me. God forbid.

Yeah, forbid. By the way, half of those kids, you’ll remember this is a young activist marked my words, half of the turning point kids in ten years are gonna be liberals. They’re figuring out who they are. They don’t they’re not driven by anything but, like, the sort of social aspect of what they’re have. But there’s also the tucker event in Iowa that — Mhmm.

— I have a

hard time. Going to. Your man Pence is going to. Why is Mike Pence going to that? Well, and

you know he’s not gonna give you a fair shake. Like, everyone knows where Tucker is on issues from Ukraine, to Trump, to the election of January six, Why even subject yourself? I don’t really understand.

Why do you think Pence is in there? Let’s do twenty twenty four primary and then I want to get to some of the military stuff that’s happening too. With Tuberville and then DAAA, but what’s your sense of? Like, why is Pence in this race? What are they seeing?

Like why do this to yourself? I’m gonna go up to Tucker Carlson?

I think both you and I think that Pence would be in a ten times stronger place if post January sixth, he took the actions he did and then repeatedly continuously condemned Trump and talked about his unfitness. And by the way, you can do that while talking about the policy you agree with under Trump because he needs to understand he’s never getting the core thirty percent die hurdle fromaga. So you’ve gotta get get the Normi Republicans. You’ve gotta get the, you know, true, the evangelical voting block, which he has strong ties to, but I think his struggle that he’s seeing. And I I shared as much with this team who I’m still very close with is the wishy washy and being on both sides who alienate the Trump people, and then you also alienate the normy, you know, Republicans that they’re still left.

So he’s a politically talented person. He’s extremely not I think he’d be probably the most ready on day one to be president, having been vice president. But it’s hard to see the lane here. I I had really hoped he might run for the Indiana set see when it was open. But, you know, I think once you’ve been vice president, it’s hard to not see yourself as the president.

I get the ego side of it, but Maybe you have a more optimistic view about this than me, so I don’t want to join the show but I I I look at Tim Scott and I look at Mike Pence in Nikki Haley, and it’s just like, it’s not happening for you. It’s not having and I think that there are reasons to run for president that are not necessarily about winning, right, particularly in primaries. It’s a good opportunity to get a message out to make a point, right, whatever. But I don’t see any of them really doing that. Hence a little bit on the January six stuff, but I don’t see any of them really doing that.

And it’s like, if you’re the three of them, to me, it’s like, oh, I’m gonna go to tucker event in Iowa. That says to me that, oh, I’m not trying to make a point. I’m deluding myself into thinking that I can win. Do you think that the three of them Think they can win and that’s their strategy? What do you think’s happening with those camps?

I think all of them think they maybe could and they could catch lightning in a bottle, and they have consultants in their ears who are telling them hitting Donald Trump is a mistake, which is goes against first rule of politics of running. You have to define your opponent and you have to chip away at the favorability, which they’re not willing to do. So then they’re just waiting as though they’re gonna, like, release some policy proposal or have some, you know, media moment that is gonna skyrocket them up. And I loved Tim Scott. We had him on the view.

I thought he was excellent. I’d vote for Tim Scott if he got the nomination I’d love to support him. I think he’s waiting in the wings for either something to take Trump out of the race, which I don’t think any of these investigations will move quickly enough to.

He wants us to do the dirty work. These people want the libs and the never trumpers and the elites that they all pretend to hate in the legal system. They’ll want us to do the dirty work more,

and then

they will be able to reap the rewards. That’s not how life works. That’s not how life works. You gotta take out your own trash. I’m sorry.

That’s not

how life works. You’re waiting for DeSantis to keep plummeting to then be the number two, but it’s to what end, so long as Trump is, you know, pulling double digits ahead of the next guy, that’s where I I am completely lost by what some of these folks are doing. And I and I mean it when I say, like, I have some grievances with Nikki Haley, but I think she’s probably one of the most politically talented people. She’s incredibly knowledgeable, and I just wish she would be the, like, bold Nikki Haley that she’s at times shown she can be.

Confederate flag moment. Yeah. Don’t agree with it. I want to get your take on DeSantis next. If DeSantis’s strategy was, I’m gonna wait and attack Trump later while I build up support.

I would at least understand that. If you’re Nikki Haley and Tim Scott like, Donald Trump’s beating you my fifty two points. Okay? You can’t look at me in the face and say you’re running a serious campaign. And be not unwilling to criticize a person beating you by fifty two points.

Like, that’s not a campaign. To me, that reads like they wanna be in the Trump administration two point o, which Iike is really cringe. Do you think that that is hat? Do you think that’s what Tim Scott and Nikki Haley are thinking about?

I’m trying to not be that cynical. Listen, Tim Scott is everyone’s dream VP pick. I think Trump would consider him. I think everyone else in the race if they thinking they could get the nomination because he’s a genuinely smart, savvy person, deep ties in South Carolina, a great personal story. But Tim Scott should reject that.

He’s somebody who should stand on his own two feet and say I’m nobody’s number two. I think there’s a lot of positioning for the inevitable of Trump and potential cabinet appointments and master ships, all of the above. With that scenario, what I don’t get is, like, What do these people think will be different about the second Trump term? Like, do they think it’ll be less chaotic?

U verse, it’ll be worse.

It’ll be worse. And god forbid. I mean They tried

to kill Mike Pence. You want the you want the job when they tried to assassinate the guy? That’s the job you’re angling for.

Right. Not to mention if he gets the nomination and then loses to Joe Biden or, you know, presumably to Joe Biden, he’s gonna January sticks it up again, like, he’s gonna do something to create, you know, civil disruption and and do you really wanna tie yourself to that again?

It seems like maybe it’s the answer, which is bad enough. Actually, you might not have to be cynical. You would have to agree with me. Maybe I have more TDS than you. But even if the answer is maybe, that’s kind of bad enough.

For Tim Scott and Nikki Haley.

Yes. But I will say I do talk to both Tim Scott and Nikki Haley’s teams and they they swear they’re in it to win it. They’ve They have strategies, but they are they’re narrow. And they’re they’re banking on catching lightning in a bottle, so we’ll see.

Okay. They’re welcome to call and we can talk off the record. I still got some pals over there that don’t call me anymore because they’re scared that I’m gonna burn them or whatever. I’m happy to talk to them and hear them out, but I just I don’t see it. It just doesn’t see it.

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You said some interesting this week, it looks like, about how you’re just out on the Ron DeSantis gay shit.

Yeah.

Just give me your personal viewing and his strategy.

So I’ve kinda said DeSantis was actually super overhyped for some time. I knew him in the house, smart guy kind of was an old school Republican foreign policy hawk. As governor, you will recall, he came out and he said, I’m not gonna get into, like, the bathroom bills and this kinda culture war issues.

Right.

And I would attribute, like, the success of his first term to being you know, I’ve got some issues on COVID, the free state of Florida, businesses blocking. There are people wanting to live there. And rather than talking about economics and kitchen table issues, he’s decided to go full culture warrior. And like to me, I can’t even support someone who kind of dabbles into that. I I mean, that spring the LGBTQ community is a deal breaker for me, but he’s gone, like, scary extreme.

The ad that went out a week or two ago was the the, like, end of pride ad was literally the most homophobic ad I’ve ever seen.

And the most homoerotic ad that you’ve ever had

at the

same time. A very strange combo.

It’s a strange convo. He’s getting bad info.

And I

sent this tweet yesterday. It was just like, so you look at Donald Trump. And you’re like, my issues with him isn’t the coup that he tried, but that he’s too nice to almost actuals. Like, that’s an insane position. Primary voters also don’t see it.

Right? It’s not just an insane position for those of us who are urban, whatever, anti trump you. Like, primary voters looking at you and you’re like, they’re like, no. This is wrong.

No. I was in Wolfboro, New Hampshire, which was kind of a Trump Penn stronghold, and DeSantis happened to be there for the parade. And he got shouted down with a Wesay gay chant. Like, he forgets that, like, there are gay Republicans, there are Republicans with gay children, like, with trans kids. Like, why are you thinking that this is like, you know, a community that’s only on the left and not tens of millions of people whose votes you should want and not try to alienate.

I’m wondering your thought on the foreign

policy stuff just on twenty twenty four, and then get to the what’s happening in in Congress right now, but JBL has a has a newsletter out today. And if you look at the field, if this Bulwark, let’s say you got Trump at fifty Ron DeSantis at fifteen and Ramaswamy at ten ish. So you know you got about three quarters of the party that is running to Biden’s left on Ukraine. I know that you’re against that from your position, but how do you analyze that? And that it’s different on the hill.

Right? That’s more of made flip, actually, probably inverse that. What does that say about the Republican party voters? Like, where things are going on foreign policy? And, like, how much does that concern you?

That really, like, the three leading contenders are basically writing to the isolationist left of Biden in this primary?

The current Republican Party, I would say, is a nationalist populist party, not a conservative party. It really I mean, not to date myself, but it’s kinda like the Pat Buchanan Party who basically ran on isolationism, anti even legal immigration, you know, any sort of aid to foreign nations with something that we oppose pro terrorists, anti free trade, super anti, the LGBTQ and so on. It’s a very odd moment.

And you’re against the party on all of those. So immigration trade, isolationism, gay stuff. You’re you’re on the other side on all that.

I’m a Paul Ryan Mitt Romney kind of Republican. And I actually think that’s where the vast majority of the party probably is but the national party’s trending otherwise. I mean, DeSantis, he’s getting advised by, frankly, what I think is a very junior team in Florida that reading, you know, Twitter sentiment rather than national sentiment. The country is united behind what Biden’s doing in Ukraine. And they would be united behind a Republican wanting to continue and potentially give more aid to Ukraine.

Now I’m I’m to the right of Biden on how much we’re assisting our allies in Ukraine. And I wanna believe that there’s gonna be a course correction and a change, and it would be the result of losing another national election that would make us wake up and say we’re alienating every major people group we need to be a national party. But who knows?

Though for somebody like you, it’s gotta give you a little pause. No. About like maybe that’s not true about the part. Right? I don’t think voters vote just on Ukraine, but like it’s a little concerning that three quarters of the Republican Party is with a candidate that at some level wants us to dial back our Ukraine involvement.

Yeah. Although I read it a little different with regard to Trump, I think that there people were supporting Trump who were actually have bought into him saying he could solve this, and Ukraine could have peace and Russia could I actually think the vast majority of this country wants to see Ukraine victorious is how the politicians sell it that maybe they’re disagreeing on.

I’ve been dying to hear your opinion about the Tuberville thing because you have these conflicting things within you, the two wolves inside of you, your pro life. Right? So his hold for people who haven’t fallen closely to cover bills is holding all these military promotions because DOD is paying for you know, women who need to travel to have an abortion. They’re paying the reimbursements. And Trevor’s holding these promotions, even common daunt of the marine corps is being held, and some very serious promotions are being held up.

He is refusing the call of the secretary of defense this weekend apparently, refusing to talk to him. How do you hash out that story?

Well, first and foremost, this is Tommy Tuberville who Donald Trump was trying to reach on the senate floor on January sixth, thinking that he would help vote to overturn the election. He’s also the person who disgraced himself by going on Caitlin Collins, new prime time show on CNN and basically defending white nationalism. So this is not neither the brightest bold nor probably one of our finest leaders. So I am pro life and I strongly support the Hyde Amendment which blocks you know, federal funds from going to abortion. What he’s doing would be the biggest stretch of an interpretation of what the High Amendment does.

I think it’s totally inaccurate. What the Pentagon is doing is purely providing PTO paid time off. They are not covering the cost of the abortion procedure. But I also think it’s our military readiness is something that Republicans generally were, like, we will not touch. We’re not ever going to tie the hands of the Department of Defense, especially at a time when we’re you know, we forget we still have troops in Syria.

We still have troops in Iraq. But we’re also heavily supporting our allies in Ukraine. This is not a time for us to not be ready, not be investing, not have common on of the marine corps for the first time in a hundred and sixty four years. So I think it’s foolish. I think that the house needs to reconcile it, and this is gonna be challenging for McCarthy because Democrats aren’t gonna support an NDAA that, you know, has this carve out on the abortion issue.

It’s another example kind of of the Charlie Kirk thing though, right? And the Senate conviction vote. Right? It’s like, the people that know better still in the Senate, I mean, you know, don’t feel like they’re putting a ton of pressure on him. I mean, when Mitch McConnell wants to put pressure on somebody, he’s demonstrated that he’s good at it and like, this has gone on for a while now.

Well, he and Secret Podcast both spoke out that they strongly oppose it, but that needs to be ramped up pressure. Yep. I mean, this, by the way, it goes back to, like, the Republican party flipping on some of our principals. So now we’re holding up DOD appointments and funding. We’re supposed to be the pro defense party.

And this week, our friends in the house did this anti DOJJ. We hate the FBI. We don’t trust our our law enforcement, which I’m like, that would have been Do

you fund the FBI?

No. Do you fund the BI. I was like, because defund the police worked so well for Democrats. Let’s let’s go even further and go after federal law enforcement. It’s CUKO.

It’s like flipping everything on its head.

Let’s talk about our friends in the house. Here’s another area where you’re probably a little cross pressured. I mentioned in your view on there’s both on the merits of what they’re doing and on the strategy. So in the house, I believe it was a fifty eight to one pass of the National Defense Authorization Act in a committee. And so it’s a bipartisan passage.

Comes to the floor, McCarthy is allowing a lot of amendments, and there have been a lot of culture war amendments put in, no deI, you know, no paying for gender, you know, affirmative care or transition surgeries. No, you know, paying for abortion PTO, as you just mentioned, all this, you know, sort of stuff has now been put into this bill I think probably there were probably still the votes to get it passed. We might know about attending this podcast is up. We should know on Friday. It’s kinda similar to your old Freedom caucus buddies strategies, but on, like, culture rather than on financial.

Right? It’s not like they’re trying to stop the spending. It’s like, oh, no. In order to do the spending, you gotta check all of these culture war boxes for us.

Right. And that’s the problem is the GOP in this iteration is making the culture wars basically their whole personality. Because we don’t have any credibility on spending, by the way. Donald Trump spent, you know, an absurd amount while in office as president. But Yeah.

Back in the day, I mean, even in the Freedom caucus days when we were, you know, holding up legislation, primarily on, like, fiscal issues, we didn’t really touch defense bills. That was something that was sort of like our national defense is too important. We’re not gonna try to do these kind of things in the NBAA. At least this is the best of my recollection. It’s absurd.

I quote this stat constantly because I think there’s a big disconnect from Republicans in the country and elected Republicans in Washington. But sixty seven percent of Republicans in the country want more protections for the LGBTQ plus community against discrimination. And meanwhile, you’ve got our folks in Washington who seem to wanna make their whole personality going after trans kids or making it more difficult for people to just live their lives. I think it’s absurd. It’s backward.

You’re gonna lose a whole generation of voters if you keep going that way. It’s not like we haven’t tried this in the past, but the country’s moved forward.

Alright. I want to close out here. We’ve argued about the past. I wanna argue about the present a little better. Are you ready?

We can a little bit of a fun disagreement. You are more than ready now. You’re daily arguing with you. Actually, before we argue, what’s being on the view like? I meant to ask.

Got to ask. What’s Whoopi like? How’s Joy? How much slander do you take in your Twitter mentions? What’s life like in the conservative chair?

I love it. The good always outweighs the bad. The hosts are pretty close to what you see is what you get. What b I love. Like, I pinch myself every day that I’m like, holy shit.

I’m sitting across the table from, like, an egot. She’s won every award imaginable, and she’s just an amazing person. Were you

a sister act fan as a kid?

SisterACT two is, like, my favorite movie of all time. So I’m I keep pitching her on letting me do a cameo because she wants to do a sister act three, and she’s, like, be. You’re not doing a cameo. Sorry, bro. But Joy’s hilarious.

We both kinda have gallows humor and the other day on air. I said, like, something along the lines of like, well, I I plan to be in heaven, and she’s like, oh, that’s a bold assumption. And so, of course, then everything online is like, Joy Behart tells alyssa she’s going to hell. You have to have thick skin to be in that seat. I, like, probably take things too unpersonally, but it’s fun.

I enjoy it’s a huge platform and I don’t think our viewers are they’re left of center, but I don’t think they’re as in a box as people think. So I think it’s a cool place to try to, like, change hearts and minds and educate people on issues they might not, you know, think about that much. So

So you’re not just scrolling through, like, searching your name on Twitter and on YouTube. Comments and just like going down a rabbit hole of spiraling over the negative feedback you’re seeing from the random liberals on the Internet?

I’m guilty of a little bit, but actually whoopi is instrumental in telling me. She’s like, you are gonna drive yourself insane if you read your mentions. You don’t know those people, like, just tune it out. So I’ve been, like, proactively not really reading mentions, but also, by the way, I get it more from the right than the left now, which is interesting. Like, the left, I’ll still get the, like, you’re complicit.

You don’t deserve to ever have a voice occasionally. But I think most have kinda been, like, whatever.

Oh, because the right does the, oh, you’re a cello.

Yeah.

And you’re just doing this for an act and this is a GIF, and that’s what they’re giving you. People that are just like, oh, you’re phony, you know, you never wore MAGa.

Well, I’m more conservative than Donald Trump’s ever been today yesterday and the day before. I only look oath I ever took was to the constitution of the United States say it’s not to any president. But by the way, I also don’t feel bad about the fact that I’m more moderate as a god. I’m thirty four, Tim. As a thirty four year old woman.

Than I was as a twenty five year old Freedom caucus staffer. And I believe in a lot of stuff that we argued for then, but I would think I think that life experience policy learning, studying, should it’s okay to, like, evolve on your viewpoints over time. I think it’s a healthy thing.

Yeah, we are still aligned on that. I’m like, there’s this view amongst among some in the conservative Never Trump said that’ll I get into a a tiff with that they’re like, Oh, you have to have maintained every principle that you had before Donald Trump came in, and my view is kind of like, I don’t know, if you had a worldview, in that world, you was aligned with a political party, and that political party was overtaken by a racist idiot. And you didn’t reassess a single thing that you had supported beforehand. To me, that seems incurious and unreflective. I’m not saying you have to completely switch everything and and go you know, become a Democratic party party weight or, you know, a liberal all down the line, but like but maybe you’d miss some things.

Right? And maybe there are some things to reflect on. That’s all.

Right. Exactly. Like, Nuance is not a bad thing either. Like, I’ve been thinking about that with, like, something like affirmative action. My answer is not black or white.

It’s, like, a little bit somewhere in between, and I think that that’s I think probably more of our country is like that than we realize. For sure.

Okay. Let’s argue about Joe Biden. I think Joe Biden’s been pretty damn good. Afghanistan was a botch. A really bad one, frankly.

I disagreed with him on the student loan thing. The Supreme Court ended up overruling it, so a little bit of a no harm, no foul there. Besides that, he’s tried really hard to to bridge the divide. He gets no credit for that. They’ve done a lot of bipartisan stuff in Congress when he’s been president.

Nobody thought that he could do that. Most of the bipartisan stuff has been really good, chips, infrastructure, codifying gay marriage. I mean, it hasn’t been an a plus plus for me. He’s not been, you know, the magic, you know, John Huntman, moderate rhino was classically liberal Republican of my dreams or anything, but like, I think he’s been pretty darn good, and yet a lot of people that are like a step to my right? Like are really nasty about Joe Biden and and and like very critical of him and and talking about how poorly he’s done.

So, you know, you have to fight fight on the view every day. Like, where how do you grade Joe Biden?

I hear Joe Biden probably I probably have to break into issues. Like a c.

Just really quick, before you have specifics on Joe Biden, let’s level set. Okay. You give Joe Biden a c. Let’s go back, Donald Trump, Barack Obama with George w Bush. But Donald Trump, Barack Obama with George w Bush.

What do you give those three?

Well, okay, sweet. This is the moderate self like, of George Bush a c. I’d probably give Obama a c minus, and Donald Trump in retrospect, like, a d.

This is what I’m saying. Okay. You’re making life when it’s like, Joe Biden’s been the best president of our life, I think. Maybe h o w, but a bit that we were kids.

I know. Right? Actually best no. I think bush, I’m overwhelmed by I think we have the retrospective of Iraq now that we didn’t have at that time. But I do think post nine eleven leadership was incredible.

I think that — Sure.

—

economy and that he reflects my viewpoints the most of anyone in my lifetime.

Same. But Iraq was such a fuck up. Me and George W are probably better if you went down a checklist of policies between me and W and Biden. But like Iraq was such a screw up like, so here we are, Joe Biden. Doing just fine.

My sense with Joe Biden is this. I think he’s exceeded my expectations, but my expectations for him were extremely low. I’ve said with him, think he is a genuinely good man, though I’ve been critical of, you know, the issues, the Marine Dow piece about the granddaughter, and I never presumed to know things and someone’s family. That’s hard for me to stomach. Afghanistan was borderline unforgivable to me, and it is It’s emotional and it’s personal.

I spent time in country. I had friends who were translators. I helped work on getting visas for translators when I was at Capitol Hill. It’s not unforgivable, but that was for me, probably one of the lowest moments. Ukraine, I credit him tremendously with keeping the NATO alliance together.

I think at a fictitious moment. My biggest objection to Joe Biden, this will piss off your listeners, is I don’t think you should be running again. I have a really hard time and I’m sensitive to ages and I really am, but I have a hard time saying that he should be president. Again, not for a lack of what Democrats wanted from him. I think he’s delivered for mainline, moderate democrats.

I think progressives, he’s gonna have to do some work with. And I think moderate Republicans can be, like, it’s fine. But I I don’t think he should be running again. It’s my biggest critique. And listen, I’m always gonna disagree with him on pro life issues.

I think the border, he’s just pretended is not an issue, and I think that is gonna matter. I think China is emboldened in, you know, the West heavosphere, but I think he had that hasn’t come to a head, so I’m not gonna grade him on it yet.

So those are your critiques. China, the border, Afghanistan. Spending maybe? That second COVID bill was probably overcooked.

Probably too much. The economy is doing better, but I’m not convinced that that’s translating to voters in the last two years every the cost of nearly all goods have gone up by, like, fifteen percent. And we get it, inflation’s a global phenomenon, but my family, we vote based on our pocketbooks. That’s always how it’s been. We didn’t grow up with a lot, and, you know, that’s a significant financial hurdle.

And I do think there are areas he could have done more to reach out to the right.

This is the one that annoys me with some of my and I I’m not speaking out of school because I’ve said it to him like my pals. Like, Steven Hayes and some of these guys are stretched. I’m like, what more do you want this guy to do? I mean, they’re like they’re calling him a hair sniffing, dementia riddled pedophile, and he’s out there. Most days, he’s just like, You know, I’m just trying to fight for the soul of the country, and I know that my friends over there on the right, they’re gonna come around.

And one day, he was on Nicole Wallace, see it last week. Nicole Wallace is like, add seats to the Supreme Court. And he’s like, no. I don’t know. I don’t think so.

He’s like, some days he’s like, I think the fever’s gonna break over there and I can work with Mitch McConnell. I mean, given how insane some people on the right are, I give him an a plus plus on how he’s tried to just be a president for everybody. And all the infrastructure bills going into red states?

Biden’s an institutionalist. And I think for someone like me, that’s important for the sake of stability. I don’t think that his approach to the economy long term is gonna work. I don’t think it’s sustainable to pretend that the border is just a red state issue. I think he’s gonna get hit a lot on that in a general.

I’m not convinced he’s got the fight in him for a second term, but I would say my critiques of his first term are minor. I think the running is what I have the biggest objection to.

Alright. So Elizabeth, Joe Biden, best president of her life. I won’t say I won’t tell any of your meg of friends, Seth. We’re gonna yeah. I love that you’ve been

I’m still I’m still right in a republican. My buddy will hear

Oh, boy. We’re gonna have to do a whole another podcast on but will hurt for Bulwark plus members only.

I have a gripe with you on that. So please have me back to us.

Okay. Well, we can flip it. Next time you can yell at me, thank you for subjecting yourself to me again. I’m really appreciative of it. Lisa, and we’ll be monitoring you on the view.

Come back anytime. Charlie will be back on Tuesday. On Monday, it’s the third edition of Will Saletan, amazing podcast series, the corruption of Lindsay Graham. Don’t miss it, Elizabeth. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Tim.

We’ll see everybody else on Monday. Peace.

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