This election is about being a grownup and making a choice. One candidate is clearly preferable, and a protest vote sends a message to no one. Meanwhile, Biden is not waiting to take the fight to Trump, and Democrats have to call out culture war ugliness. Plus, another installment of "The Right Stuff." Joe Walsh joins Tim Miller today.
The Bulwark Podcast
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Tim Miller and guests discuss the latest political news for the flagship podcast of the Never Trump movement and the reality-based community. Every weekday we provide insightful analysis, political hot-takes, an unabashed defense of liberal democracy and long-form interviews that cut through the "both-sides" BS. Plus a few laughs to help you wash down the crazy.
An ad-free edition is exclusively available for Bulwark+ members.
Tim Miller and guests discuss the latest political news for the flagship podcast of the Never Trump movement and the reality-based community. Every weekday we provide insightful analysis, political hot-takes, an unabashed defense of liberal democracy and long-form interviews that cut through the "both-sides" BS. Plus a few laughs to help you wash down the crazy.
An ad-free edition is exclusively available for Bulwark+ members.
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Tim Miller
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Thanks Bulwark for your continued discussion about the question of Joe Biden at the top of the Democratic Party ticket, running for re-election for president.
Yes, this discussion deserves a full airing and has been side-lined, ignored and censored far too long. All of the various pro's/con's of Biden stepping aside are finally getting the coverage they deserve.
It's my hope for the sake of the country, not to mention the sole remaining major political party that's not just a cult-following that Joe steps aside.
I would argue that the majority of Americans are "respectful" our fellow citizens who are LGBTQ+. Is it just me for whom the word "tolerant" in this context is like fingernails on a chalkboard?
You want to understand what Israel could have done differently? Fine. Commit to using only SDBs in populated areas. Clear potential Hamas strongholds with Infantry instead of bombs. Maybe don't post videos of your troops desecrating and destroying Mosques. Maybe don't have generals and cabinet level officials advocating ethnic cleansing and war crimes.
Israel could have committed to a long term campaign of assassination and targeted strikes, but instead decided on wholesale slaughter. Israel could have acknowledged it's role in tacitly suppoetimg Hamas to undermine the PA. Joe's analysis of the whole situation is clown shoes, and reeks of starting from the conclusion and working your way back. The blinders here are absolutely wild, and it really bugs me that the Bulwark seems to have committed to the position that tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths just had to happen. It's gross.
Oh, and you want to know why the Biden Admin started talking about this stuff publicly? It's because they communicated it privately, and the Israelis gave us the finger. So at this point? Fuck 'em.
Excellent! And I'm stealing your idea that voting is not about self actualization, but a chicken or fish issue. Love this; thanks for all you do.
I generally like Joe Walsh and think he’s a decent guy, but I have to disagree with his opinion that Biden should only be expressing disagreement with Netanyahu in private. We all know that if he was only pressuring Netanyahu behind the scenes, all we would hear from commentators like Joe Walsh (maybe not Walsh himself but certainly many, many Never Trump commentators) is criticism that Biden is being too weak and passive in his relationship with Israel. Commentators like this never give Biden the benefit of the doubt and assume he is working things behind the scenes, even though Biden obviously does so and is very good at it.
Joe Walsh = HERO. Keep talking.
Joe Walsh on 18 yo carrying guns:
He’s right : I Disagree, like many who heard this podcast
Sure, Joe is right about checks before anybody gets a weapon — backgrounds, etc.
But:
His reasoning about 18yo should be able to get an assault rifle or handgun bc they’re old enough to enlist in military is an old, tired and wrong headed argument.
Young Soldiers are supervised, trained rigorously and subject to strict discipline and consequences if they fuck up and break safety regulations.
Joe should be smart enough to recognize this distinction and qualify his ideological, libertarian position on this question.
I’m not the first person to make this crucial point.
As a former Marine, I learned to handle firearms with the highest level of respect for safety. It is branded into your brain, and permanent muscle memory !
Too many 2nd Amendment ideologues carry a cavalier attitude about placing weapons into untrained, unsupervised, careless and immature hands.
Regarding being a “cheap date” for Biden …
As I interpret it, it effectively means holding out on openly advocating (even reluctantly) a vote for Biden over Trump until down the road, in the hopes of somehow extracting something of value before putting out for Joe.
I get the reality of the impact of doing so will have on your reputation and prospects within the GOP as you wear the scarlet J.
But … we’re past that, and these cutesy games are causing great harm. In this critical time 6 months ahead of the election, NOT advocating for Biden effectively reinforces “Trump is bad but Biden is worse” permission structure. (I see Sununu whenever I think of this.) The clock is ticking on turning this around. We must see prominent Republicans start making the argument for a Biden vote, in a concerted manner, soon and loud.
I salute all of your efforts, Tim, to try to glue the herd of cats coalition together ranging from the absolutely never Trump to the hate Trump but I gotta be me and surely there is some theoretical scenario in which Biden could -- not that he has, but he could in an alternate universe -- do something soooooooooo bad that I would have to put my angry foot down, because I do have feet and nobody can tell me that I have to vote for Trump but don't get me wrong, I don't like Trump you are still listening to me, aren't you because I am saying something very nuanced you won't hear on the Bulwark and it seems you really trying to undermine my personal autonomy and say I would have to vote for someone besides Trump when truly something awful could happen etc. ad nauseum.
So sick of it.
Walsh, obviously, is not obnoxious as are so many of the others - but I think, as a political species, you have assessed the red liners correctly when you say it is about self-actualization, and not about electoral reality.
This podcast covered two topics that are of intense interest to me. The war between Israel and Hamas and the “war’ between The Bulwark and The Dispatch (ok, “war” may be too strong a term, the ongoing disagreement).
First on Israel, Tim and I have been arguing about this via email for months and mostly, I think we have irritated each other. While I would never vote for Trump, I too have felt exasperated by the Biden Admin “pivot” on Israel.
What is important to understand is Hamas does not have a military strategy. Hamas has a media strategy and uses the media in the West, including in the U.S., as a force multiplier. The latest numbers out of Gaza I have heard is there is more or less a 1:1 ratio civilian death to terrorist death. While any unwanted death is of course a tragedy, this is an unprecedented low number of civilians killed relative to the number of terrorists and in the most complicated urban environment every fought (at least in modern history according to urban war expert John Spencer). So, the entire conversation being had in America about the need for “frank conversations” with the Israelis about “restraining the Israelis as if the Israelis were just pissed of cowboys killing anything in sight is wrong on the facts and wrong on the broader strategy. Perhaps Netanyahu should have been developing a “Day After” plan and perhaps there is criticism that is warranted for the failure to do so. But the absence of a “Day After” plan is different than suggesting the Israelis are recklessly and indiscriminately killing Palestinians when they are not (and which Palestinians do in fact do to Israelis when given the opportunity, we should remember).
Suggesting or intimating falsely that Israel is killing civilians indiscriminately simply feeds the media narrative Hamas wants. The long-term rhetorical slide by the Biden Admin culminated with the suggestion that shipment of some offensive weapons would be halted. That only helps Hamas in their media narrative and strengthens their resolve. Any leader of Israel is going into Rafah to kill or capture the remaining fighters and leaders. To do anything else would be to hand Hamas (and Iran, China and Russia) a victory.
With respect to Never Trumpers now voting for Trump because of Israel, I would only say I don’t know how any patriotic American could ever vote for Donald Trump. Full stop. That does not mean I love the Dems. I still believe in the classical liberalism I did in 2016, so I get very Dispatchian when I hear folks at The Bulwark speak so comfortably about being in the Dem coalition. Color me unimpressed with the Dems. But I am at my most Bulwarkian when I hear folks at The Dispatch describe Joe Biden as a risk to the constitutional order in the same vein as Trump is. That is hogwash. Trump is a threat and Biden is not (neither is Kamala—though I throw up in my mouth a little bit with the thought of her as President).
I could go on, but I have probably irritated enough folks with what I have written thus far.
ET is a key US interest in Africa, too, and ET was very unhappy with the US (China has been providing ET with large amounts of foreign aid and ET is feeling less beholden) so I don’t think that’s it. But I think you hit the cause - there is a far larger pro Israel constituency in the US. Politicians on both sides will ignore injustice if they think they don’t have the political capital to do anything about it. I’m surprised that Walsh - who himself says that he’ll never hold political office again - still operates like that.
Show her YouTube clips of Aussie rugby league player, Ian Roberts. He’s brutal … and openly gay.
I love Joe, thanks, wouldn't mind him being on again..
A lot of former Republican men remind me of my dad who was a Reagan Conservative...and I loved him to death, even though him and I didn't agree on a lot of political things...lol
Not really into Monday morning quarterbacking, 3.5 yrs later on what Biden should have done. Does no one any good. But we all deal. If it were an easy job, perhaps there would be dozens of candidates. As for Biden’s age and stamina, if he were to pass in first month of office, I would be fine, so fine with Harris.
My biggest push today is polls. I believed them in 2016 when the moron first ran, had Clinton slightly ahead. Even after the Comey BS, numbers still looked OK. Then late night Nov 8, 2016..
Have never depended on polls again. That and the Electoral College sucks.
So sitting here in mid May election year, I won’t listen to polls. Support my D candidates however I can. Both campaigns are much smarter than I and most of TV broadcasters. Organizations such as Bulwark are there to do a service in support of the elections. I learn lots, so I can have good convos with those willing. But the polls turn me off.
Tim Suggestion: Oaths- do they mean anything anymore.
Thank you both for so adequately expressing my frustration with Jonah and many of The Dispatch crew. I am a subscriber, I listen to their podcasts and read their content. Not surprising, Nick is my favorite but I find the rest of them to be maddening. Right now is not the time for Jonah and Steve to be waxing poetic about philosophy, pull the lever for Biden and use your influence to get us over the line in 2024 with an audience that is generally more conservative than The Bulwark audience but still highly Trump skeptical.
That is exactly me...
Very good show, Joe and Tim are men of exceptional character, and I think people sometimes forget how much they lost by standing up for democracy. Same with Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger. I hope that if my "people" were doing something as atrocious as today's Republicans that I would have the courage of my convictions as the Never Trumper's do. One quibble with Joe regarding AR-15's and him thinking 18 year olds should have free access to them b/c they fight in the military. When you are in the military you most certainly do NOT have free access. The military is extremely strict about firearm safety and significantly limits when and where soldiers can be armed. They should be outlawed for civilian use, or at least have them at range where you can rent them or something of the sort.
Had the same thought on 18 yr olds in the military.
I’m open to allowing an 18 year old to have a gun if subject to same training and controls as the military.
Less excited about just about any 18 yr old with $700 being able to walk into a gun shop and buying an AR-15.
Spit take when Tim said “Jared’s plan is to build condos”
Holy crap, at the Dispatch today it sounds like Sarah Isgur of all people is making the same case about needing to vote for Biden rather than a write in. Did not see that coming
You are kidding me? I was there today, but , didn't see that, where did she say that?
Collision? I haven't read that one yet.
She has a lot of influence there, mybe it will convince some of the stubborn ones...lol
Angie, it’s on the Dispatch Podcast today. It’s clear she thinks you have to pick Biden or Trump and it’s disingenuous and wimpy to do neither.
PS: And thanks
WOW, maybe the old Sarah is back...I used to love her and then she kinda went all tribal on me...lol
One note regarding the Israel situation and its impact on the U.S. election:
Joe and Tim are right that most voters care relatively little about the war in Gaza and if anything, support Israel in that war. But the war is almost certainly hurting Joe Biden from the left in an indirect, pernicious, under-the-radar way: Celebrity endorsements.
Walsh would probably laugh at this, but it’s true: Hollywood celebrities are a critical part of elite star power in the Democratic coalition. Republicans sneer at, belittle, and attack them because of their cultural and opinion-shaping power, not because of their lack thereof.
2024 was already a year when a lot of celebrities—due to a hangover from the extreme stress of 2020, and ironically because of the now-booming economy and the thus far greater marginal cost involved in getting active in politics compared to 2020–were staying on the sidelines. (Witness The Rock tying himself into rhetorical pretzels to justify not endorsing Joe Biden, and potentially alienating his burgeoning UFL customer base.)
But the Israel war, given its cultural salience in pop culture industry, and its wall-to-wall presence in the headlines, gives celebrities that much more excuse to sit on their hands, let Joe Biden to his own devices, and not lift a finger to save democracy.
I would even warrant that indirect effect is showing up in the polls, especially as time goes on.
Not something I can prove. But almost certainly what some campaign people are experiencing, day to day to day. :/
Can I nominate Ileana Garcia for "The Right Stuff" ?https://x.com/BecauseMiami/status/1522582537897496576
Read NYT magazine article on how extremists have taken over Israel during last several decades and the terrorism committed against Palestinians with impunity - this should be included when considering current situation
Tim, a good discussion with Joe, but I was surprised that neither of you mentioned the hostages when discussing Palestine. And as far as the Morning in America, I disagree. Biden needs to acknowledge that when people are in the checkout line at the grocery store they have a look on their face like a trapped animal. I’ve been at Costco and the person in front of me is spending $600 and they still have serious sticker shock. It NEEDS to be acknowledged.
I would assume that every state has different rules. But in Wisconsin we do not have to count any write in names unless they are actually registered as write in candidates. So a disgruntled voter's "protest vote" has little impact. Not only is that person not going to win by but since there is no tally or reporting of write in votes - the candidate you are "sending the message" to will never even know.
Yep, same in OH ,they have to be on the ballot....no write ins
Though OH is probably going to go Trump anyway...sigh
Enjoyed the show despite some of the disagreements. Healthy for us to discuss and listen. Thanks.
Biden's basically making the same mistake Obama made for big portions of 2012: Focusing on presidenting above all else, not taking the fight personally to Romney, assuming policy would equate to politics and polls would take care of themselves.
Romney won the first debate as a result, Obama had to scramble to recover, and likely the Democrats lost the opportunity to make big gains in the House that year.
Even the "greatest politician of our generation" forgot to be hungry and fight his domestic opposition for a bit. Being president, during this era of history, will distract you, no matter who you are.
I think that's why Biden hasn't "Gone Out There" and taken the fight to Trump more overtly, not because of his age, or because he's lost a step, or because he's "not the same Joe" or whatever. And I believe that'll become clear as the summer goes by.
Also I really admire how Joe Walsh avoided outright saying "Fuck you, Jonah Goldberg". I wouldn't have had that kind of self-control. :P
Hmmm I understand your point of view and viscerally I agree. However, I don’t think it works in the Democratic Party. I am an ex Republican and I started to transition to independent in 2018 and then dem in 2020. I would talk to buddies (very dem) and I was like “fuck that. Take the fight to them. Tell them you will pack the court, make Puerto Rico a state, bring in trumps family and investigate them, etc.” My buddies were horrified. They were like that works for us (white liberals) who pay attention but won’t work on 80% of the coalition who cares about other things. They could care less about ivanka and Jarrod. Pretty eye opening.
Yeah, that tracks.
Though I would like to give said buddies of yours a little dressing down, in the name of all that is good in the Republic.
I would tell them "Stop giving me reasons why you CAN'T do these things. Give me reasons you CAN. I don't want to hear another word until you've figured out some way, somewhere, somehow. Find a path. Go."
My academic advisor has given me exactly that hard advice, time to time. I think Dems writ large could use it right now.
I mean I hear you but I just don’t think it works.
I mean look at our society. Shit I even wonder what the hell could work now because you got a good president who is empathetic, pleasant, and old. The other side is running a serial rapist, a liar, a seditionist, tells you he wants and will be a dictator, etc. and half of fucking America is like “I’ll take option 2!!! Give me more of that!”
That’s why I found the discussion about “should Biden run” so infuriating. I mean sure maybe we could find the “perfect” candidate (and let’s be real we don’t have one of those). I mean you may get a bump of a point or two. Like you could run Jesus and it would be close. So frustrating.
That's the pitfall a lot of former Republicans fall into when they first wind up in Blue World. The Democratic Party isn't about ideology, it's about coalitions. Policy positions take years to fully emerge, and leadership is based around either personal charisma or the ability to swing coalition partners. We all jostle together and gradually hash things out, until you get an FDR or Clinton with enough personal charisma to light a forest fire.
It's also why a lot of us are sanguine about sharing a foxhole with former Republicans without demanding any changes in their policy positions. It's not like there weren't already people in the party whose ideas I find incompressible or pollyannaish or even harmful. That's why we have public scrums that give people who want message discipline heartburn. But when it's firing on all cylinders, it's basically unbeatable.
I mean I was socially liberal and fiscally conservative (whatever that means now). I live in sf so I mostly voted for republicans down ballot because I wanted more of a split government. Nationally I was 50-50.
What I still, to this day, don’t understand is why the fuck dems protest dems and not protest republicans. It’s the dumbest shit I have ever seen. Dems will protest a dem for a 20 week ban but not a 6 week ban by Ron d.
My theory is that the left, at this point in time, simply doesn't enjoy fighting MAGA Republicans, if nothing else because they can't comprehend them.
Like Trump, MAGA Republicans don't play by the rules--they kick you in the nuts, pull out bazookas during a knife fight, stab you in the back during negotiations. Fighting with them is like staring into the abyss, and realizing it's staring right back at you. It's unsettling, and could potentially drives one mad.
So they'd much rather fight people they CAN comprehend--each other!
It feels better, and more righteous. Plus, when you've convinced yourself you're going to lose anyway, you're not focused on the actual enemy, you're focused on factional warfare, the better to cast blame after defeat.
(Beyond that, the left feels they should've "won the battle of ideas" against the likes of MAGA by now, and hates repeating itself besides, so they don't even try to engage in that battle. It's those OTHER leftists that need cutting down to size. See Monty Python, "People's Front of Judea" sketch, etc.)
Ha. Some truth here. Also a Black Lives Matter protest at maga would turnout something like this: “black lives matter. Treat them with respect.” “Fuck that. Let’s kill some more peeps!!!” “Uh oh…”
We have always been less cohesive, that is an advantage Repuboicans have, sometimes to bad ends, like now.
But, we just for whatever reason, we are more likely to attack our own for not following what we want...
Think that is a personality difference?
Yeah the lack of cohesion is good in that the party will never go down a rabbit hole like Trump but bad for driving a message.
I don’t think it’s a personality thing on protesting dems and attacking dems though. I think, rightfully in most cases, republicans don’t want to govern and they could careless if some hippies protest them but dems actually care
Read the Jerusalem Statement on anti-semitism. Which separates anti-Zionism from anti-semitism. I am a non-Zionist Jew
Dear Tim, You are definitely on point with Israel. I am more pro-Palestinians than you.
Not pro Hamas but recognizing that Hamas is the product of years of Israel’s abuse of the Palestinians. Hamas cannot be eliminated under present circumstances. Israel is creating more HAmases by its actions. It’s ridiculous to believe that a war is going to solve this problem in the long term. Best Julie Solomon, Baltimore MD
It’s sad that when you say “I’m pro not watching 10s of thousands of citizens die” you have to caveat it with “don’t get me wrong I’m not pro-Hamas.” This is not a judgement of you or anything but our political conversation on Israel. If you care for Palestinian civilians people will actually say your pro-Hamas. Awful place for our culture to be
Great pod Tim! Would love to have Joe back!
I'd also love to hear you and Johan debate it out. I live in a swing state so I'm voting for Biden because Trump has completely disqualified himself, but I sure hope Democrats start recruiting a few younger, moderate options ASAP for 2028.
There seem to be quite a few in the wings, I think 2028 should be pretty awesome
Students and Arab Americans bitching about Biden / Gaza and anti-Trumpers bitching about Biden / Israel are two sides of the same coin. Still behaving as though we are in normal times where the guy you voted for didn't win but the other guy isn't that bad and at least honors the presidency. How quaint.
My priority right now is not Israel or Gaza: It is the U.S. of flippin' A. For this election, we do not have the luxury of "drawing the red line!" yada yada if Biden goes left when he should have gone right or vice versa. Time to get your priorities straight!
And BTW - could it be that Biden's actions on Israel / Gaza are based upon intelligence and security issues that we are not privy too? Must we always be armchair quarterbacks? I will put my trust in Biden over Trump 24/7/365.
Tura…keep speaking it. Maybe people will listen. I’m 100% where you are. The only reason I give 2 shits about Israel right now is because it’s killing Biden (what I mean is that oct 7th is awful and Israel has gone over the top but nothing is really threatening the existence of Israel right now or likely ever).
Disagree that the Dem surrogates should show up outside the Courthouse. They can make fun, but the fact that the Republican Congressman are at the Court ia disgusting and should not be replicated. Let’s not contribute to the sonking to the bottom
I guess I don’t understand joe. Why is it the USA’s job to show no daylight between the USA and Israel. Doesn’t Israel have agency here? Biden is been saying the same thing for months and bibi just gives him the finger. Also, joe talks earlier about jb showing he is up for the job and projecting strength but then he is suppose to look like a cuck on the world stage? Such contradictions are ok I guess when it’s a policy he wants.
With respect for doing it secretly…the admin did this!!!! It was leaked a week earlier (no 2000lbs bombs) by Israel (by bibi…he leaks to reporters in a group and says off the record. Its well known)
I’m a Chicagoan and back in 2010 I had, uh, let’s just call it less than charitable opinions of Joe Walsh. Now in 2024 I would get a fistfight on his behalf. He seems like a genuinely cool dude in this podcast. Also, Jonah if you do read The Bulwark comments, stop acting like a child. Grown-ups make difficult decisions for the greater good.
I also live in Illinois and felt the same about the ‘old’ Joe Walsh. Today I won’t get in a fistfight defending him but he truly is repentant about his tea party days. So I would enjoy a beer with him. Tim does a great job picking and challenging his guests in a respectful way. BTW I have voted in every Pres election since 1976 and only once was I all in on the candidate. Maybe not lesser of two evils but recognizing it is a choice between mercury fish and chicken are your only choices it should be easy
Yeah,, me too, same year even...and I don't think I was ever all in...
Oswego!
So glad I have listened to Jonah less and less. He’s still in my feed but I haven’t listened in a month. I do enjoy the Saturday show where he rambles for an hour. I have listened over the last year as he bends himself explaining his vote. I used to give him a pass, he lives in DC. But he has a platform and needs to stop acting like he’s a public thinker and not a pundit. Dude, you are on CNN on primary nights. You’re a pundit. His core, uncomfortable with Trump but not drifting left has the ability to actually recreate a center right party in this country- which we need badly. Stop being a baby.
Yeah he frustrates me because I actually love him and his writing most of the time, if not his ideology...but, he has a lot of power and influence and he could help us here and I wish he would
I don't listen or read him as much anymore , depends on the topic
Totally Geoff. I got off that train awhile ago too. He does this stupid “I’m an intellectual let me explain” then twists himself into a pretzel and then after you are like “my god he knows the right answer he just isn’t courageous enough to do and say it.” His stupid “I know a lot of never trumpers who will abandon jb because of this” is code for “they are like me and we were never going to vote for jb so let me explain why.”
Joe Walsh has the reality down ---- He's the type of Republican I certainly respect and would vote for him compared to the Paleolithic-MAGA Republicans here in Indiana I have to deal with.
Love the pod, Tim. You're a great American, and I am with you 100%.
I was with Joe Walsh, too, until the gun stuff. There is a BIG difference between joining the Army and carrying a machine gun, versus just going out and buying one as a civilian. Doesn't matter what age. These second amendment kooks have not sacrificed anything to have their boom sticks, except maybe a few hundred bucks. And the threats they face are make believe.
Same reaction. Tim conceded Joe’s flawed point too readily, imo.
(Easy for me to say, I wasn’t hosting and responding in real time!)
On the discussion around messaging on the economy being good vs sympathizing with the hardships of inflation, here's kind of where I've come down to with respect to "The people":
Americans *expect* easy decadence. We are consumers. Our culture revolves around conspicuous consumption and showing off the shit we buy. We want cheap cheeseburgers, cars, boats, electronics, tickets, and housing. When it no longer gets easy to be decadent because our purchasing power gets diminished via inflation and interest rate hikes, that's fucking with the core of our culture and what it means to be Americans (fat, bloated, judgmental, and decadent consumers). Telling people to "eat less butter" is absolutely the way to shut people down because--whether you like it or not--Americans expect easy decadence, and when they don't have that they get pissed about everything. Telling Americans that they should clam down about inflation eating into their decadent consumption patterns is like telling a woman that she should smile more when she's mad about misogyny.
If thinking about Americans being like this is hard for you just rewind back to 2003 when the country just launched into 2 wars and W told everyone that the best thing they could do for the country was to go to the mall. That's because W understood who we were as a people and what would calm us down, and perhaps Joe Biden still doesn't.
Yeah, I think we also have a severe liberty streak ( I confess I do, it is where I tend to lean right), and we don't realize how good we have it still compared to ther rest of the world...even when I prices are high , they are still lower than elsewhere
"perhaps Joe Biden still doesn't."
Or perhaps he knows it's not going to work anymore. An addict can only up their dose so far before the amount they'd need to get the old high would just make their heart explode. Jimmy Carter proved we're not 'cold turkey' kind of people. All we can do is hope Biden can convince the country to stay on the Suboxone until the worst of it passes.
"Or perhaps he knows it's not going to work anymore. An addict can only up their dose so far before the amount they'd need to get the old high would just make their heart explode. Jimmy Carter proved we're not 'cold turkey' kind of people."
I'm glad you brought up Jimmy Carter here because he was the last president who told the American consumption addicts that they should eat less butter. How'd that work out for him in 1980? Say what you want about the American addiction to endless and cheap consumption, just don't say it in an election year where the future of democracy is on the line. Trumpism is the heart attack, shit like American addiction to consumption is the cancer we can deal with *after* the impending cardiac arrest threat is dealt with. A little political triage here folks.
"Americans *expect* easy decadence." No freakin' joke!
I've had the "pleasure" of living off-grid in Alaska for the past 3 years, and it taught me something:
Life.
Is.
Hard!!
I had no clue how tough surviving really is, and I still have all sorts of amenities most people in the world do not. The things the average American complains about are trivial at best. We don't know how good we have it, that even some of the poorest among us live a better life than most of humanity ever has. I can't say I will live like this forever, but I can say that it has changed my life.
Americans need a reality check, and fast.
Americans got this way because we've encouraged it in our culture since at least Reaganism and arguably since the 1950's. We exchanged the hardiness that got us into our position on the world stage for decadence via the conspicuous consumption of hyper-capitalism. We worshipped the rich and gave them tax breaks so they could live large and we could worship them as our decadent idols. We sent the manufacturing jobs overseas so that we could buy things cheaper at the expense of our jobs not paying well. We killed the unions and raised up the corporations. We built the shareholder class by killing the working and middle classes. We got rid of the draft and farmed out our conflict-fighting to a small sliver of the country while everyone else went to the mall for 20 years. We're a culture no longer defined by the patriotism of "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." We're a culture now defined by the decadence of "ask not what the rich can do for your country, ask what your country can do for the rich."
Voltaire once said that "history is filled with the sound of silken slippers going down the stairs and wooden clogs coming up them." Guess who's going through that silken slipper phase right now.
Love the Voltaire quote
It's a favorite of mine.
"We exchanged the hardiness that got us into our position on the world stage"
Not 'hardiness;' 'slavery and ethnic cleaning.' We lucked into one of the most fertile and resource-rich places on the planet at a time when the people who had been living here were too weak to keep us from dispossessing and murdering them, and then we used slaves from Africa on plantations and the wretched of Europe and Asia in factories and public works projects to throw the economy into overdrive. Then we were the only ones that hadn't been bombed into dust as part of the greatest atrocity in human history.
This may seem like a subject change or a quibble, but it's not. Part of the reason we're so decadent is because we think what we have came to us as part of some birthright bought by our titan ancestors, instead of being the result of constant and often dubious work.
"Not 'hardiness;' 'slavery and ethnic cleaning.' We lucked into one of the most fertile and resource-rich places on the planet at a time when the people who had been living here were too weak to keep us from dispossessing and murdering them, and then we used slaves from Africa on plantations and the wretched of Europe and Asia in factories and public works projects to throw the economy into overdrive. Then we were the only ones that hadn't been bombed into dust as part of the greatest atrocity in human history."
I won't deny this one bit, but that's what made us a *regional* power. We emerged as a global power after 1945, and that was mostly because we waited until 1941 to get involved (not by choice) and only really got fully involved come 1943 when Germany and Japan had already exhausted themselves in fighting and had their logistical supply lines stretched out. We only really fought in WW2 in earnest from about 1943-1945, but we came out of it on top of the world. Then you had Bretton-Woods and the US being the only unscathed large scale economy in the world as Asia and Europe laid in ashes while the US mainland was left unscathed at a time when we had our domestic production in full swing to support the war efforts. THAT is what made us a global power rather than a regional one. We also had the most intact standing army leftover having suffered "merely" 50,000 casualties in a global war that took the lives of over 50 million.
The United States suffered at least 291,557 battlefield combat deaths in WW2, and at least an additional 113,842 military personnel deaths from other causes than direct combat.
We did not casually waste our soldiers' lives as the Soviet Union did, and of course we had far fewer civilian casualties than the countries fought upon, but it was no picnic. That second category being notably smaller than the first is the reason WW2 ranks below the Civil War, when two-thirds of military deaths were from disease and other privations.
We did lose a lot of people but our national infrastructure didn’t get absolutely demolished the way that most European and Asian countries did. And our body count was less than 1% of the total kill count for the war (<500k American KIAs vs more than 50M worldwide). That put us in an extremely advantageous position once the conflict was finished in terms of economics and military power.
I'm even more concerned about the generation of Americans growing up with Social Media, smartphones, and MAGA/Trump as "normal". My parents' generation still had parents and grandparents with farms. So many of them had farms! Now, there's like 4 guys in Ohio that work the fields to pay the loans for the farming equipment they have to buy (and aren't allowed to fix).
The corporations own a lot of the farms now too in addition to the farming equipment and the rights to repair that equipment. What happened to American manufacturing happened to American farms. The shareholders and banks own that one now too. Besides, how you gonna keep em down on the farm when the decadence of the city and suburbs are calling.
Here where I am in OH...we still actually have quite a few privately owned farms, it is pretty cool. especailly the stand with fruits and veggies at reasonable prices
Enjoy em while they last.
Yep, so many things are gone that I miss, I hope this one lasts...( might be stubborness...lol)
Great convo on Gaza. Tim and Joe both made great points, many of which I've echoed in the past/present.
Ya know, the followers/students of rising autocratic alliances around the world don't talk a whole lot about the rising alliance between the Israeli and American authoritarian right wings. We should talk about that more because Bibi and Trump both love and support each other and want each other to win. This is a very US-centered thought, but sometimes I wonder if Bibi is dragging this conflict out to help Trump come back into office. One hand washing the other and what not.
If Bibi is causing the deaths of Israelis and Palestinians just for the chance that Trump might win... I don't know what level of Hell that calls for, but it's got to be one of the really bad ones and I hope he sees it.
I think he keeps the war going not for Trump (that’s the cherry on top) but the moment he stops he is going on trial
Tim Miller continues to produce fantastic podcasts. Thank you for the hard work you put into this, Tim. re: Walsh's "problem" with Biden publicly showing daylight b/w US and Israel. From 2020-2022, the Ethiopian government was at war with one of its ethnic groups. A region in the north, Tigray, was the center of the resistance to the ET government. The ET government blocked humanitarian aid to that region in a variety of nefarious ways (blocking roads, attacking aid workers, etc) and as a result somewhere between 380,000 and 500,000 Tigrayans died from JUST famine. The US supported the ET government during the civil war. The US provides ET with significant amounts of aid. ET is considered one of the more stable and economically prosperous countries in east africa and is also one of the few predominantly christian countries in africa. Nonetheless, Blinken publicly criticized the ET government for blocking humanitarian aid and for randomly rounding up of Tigrayans living in other regions of ET and detaining them in camps without justification. The US also threatened to remove favored nation status and cut aid to ET. I did not hear ANYONE complain that the US was out of line for doing this (even though war crimes were reportedly committed by both sides of the conflict). If anything, it was criticized for not doing more. Granted, most people weren't paying any attention and still don't even know about this civil war, but why is it verboten for the US to criticize Israel in the same way that the US criticized the ET government??
Yep. It’s because Israel has been a cultural issue. I hate talking about it. I hate that bulwark covers it all the time (no fault of bulwark it’s in the news) because it’s like talking about religion. No one can be swayed.
The bulwark’s approach on Israel has been problematic from the beginning of this conflict- with the possible exception of Tim and Will. The similarity between the actions of PM Abiy and Netanyahu is uncanny - even the language used against their enemies (“vermin” “animals” etc). And Abiy blocked humanitarian aid under the same justification that Israel is using - it will be used by and support the TPLA. The only distinction is that while the Tigrayan government was oppressive and brutal during its reign, the (apparent) goal of Tigrayan separatists was to cede from ET and not to destroy ET (although the TPLA did invade Amara, the adjacent region). (You could say that another distinction is that Abiy was committing human rights violations against his own people, but then the question arises - if Gaza is an entirely separate country, why does Israel have the ability to cut off food and water?) The US told Abiy that the bad acts of the TPLA (and the prior Tigrayan regime - which really was unjust) do not justify human rights violations against the Tigrayan people (who generally supported the TPLA). And the US was right. So why isn’t the US right when it says the same thing to Israel? It’s absurd.
Oh well that’s obvious…because they are our friends and our interests (waves hands wildly) are in a prosperous Israel. It doesn’t make it right but it’s why we do it. It’s the same reason we don’t really criticize India anymore. Need them more in a china contingency than care about human rights. That has always been how government has and will act (I’m not condoning this just describing).
Israel is worse because they play such a heavy roll in our politics. That’s what makes it such a shitty issue.
It is EXACTLY like talking about religion, since 99.99% of Americans' support for Israel is because they believe that Israel is "God's chosen people." Funny, it wasn't until I let go of that particular presumption that I was able to see the atrociousness of razing Palestinian homes and neighborhoods and cutting off Palestinians' access to water. Religion has a tendency to be quite astigmatic. (I pulled that 99.99% out of my arse, so don't go asking for data!)
I get you. It sucks. People talk about Israel on here and it’s like the worst discussion. It just feels like people yelling at each other
Just speaking as someone who was an 18 year old who got deployed to Iraq twice before turning 21 and could neither drink nor own a gun when I was stateside at Camp Pendleton in California until after tour #3, we could make military exceptions for both while keeping it off limits from the civvies as a middle ground compromise :-)
I shit you not when I say there were kids in my platoon/company/battalion who got killed before they were legally allowed to drink or own a gun in the country they were serving. Blows my mind to this day.
More than four centuries ago Queen Elizabeth I of England sent Protestant occupiers into what was to become Northen Ireland. Since that time indigenous resistance had never stopped, even in the face of overwhelming and continuous English force, until finally in 1998 there was power sharing. The previous four centuries had included Cromwell’s scorched earth campaign and other acts of massive brutality that make the Israeli Gaza response look mild. None of it resulted in permanent resolution of conflict.
Democracy and freedom for all is the only stable answer to coexistence. The only answer. Responding to insurgency with force many be necessary and emotionally satisfying in the short run, but it does not stop the back-and-forth killing. It does not stop the violence.
Some people point to the nuclear bombing of Japan as an act of overwhelming force that brought about resolution of conflict, but the war with Japan was not an insurgency against occupation. We were fighting a war between governments. The Emperor felt a duty to protect his people and had the authority to end the war once and for all.
The United Nations was providing government services in Gaza. Hamas is not a government. It is, like the IRA, a purely military insurgency organization. Palestinians who worked in UNRRA, by contrast, can provide effective interim government in Gaza until there is sufficient stability to hold elections. During this fixed (three year?) period security services that answer to UNRRA can be provided by other Arabs. The limited and temporary scope of the security mandate should include sappers to obliterate the tunnels. During this time members of Hamas should be rounded up and tried in court (at the Hague?).
Or we can brace ourselves for hundreds of years of more violence.
I am so sick of Jonah Goldberg. If not for David French’s “guest” appearances, I’d be cancelling my Dispatch subscription.
I'm still hanging in, even though I am not happy about everything..there are commentors there that I have got to know quite well, and I like them and talking to them.
Yeah I respect that, and I’m still (barely) holding on.
I know it is hard...some days I throw my hands up...but, I usually clam down the next day and go back...lol
I gave mine up a while ago. Once David left.
I just hate his pretentiousness. He ties himself in such a pretzel and he does it in this winding “intellectual” sounding way. If you take a beat, your like “wow that’s some bullshit.”
I did cancel mine. I couldn’t articulate my exasperation with their Biden position like Tim and Joe just did but I knew it was insincere.
I haven't heard Tim advocate contempt for those who oppose Biden's approach to the Netanyahu regime. I have heard him express exasperation and, yes, contempt for the childish and thoughtless calculation that they'll vote for Trump or will not vote for Biden, which is a vote for Trump. I'm mos def on Team Tim on this issue.
Please, Biden did not cut off all offensive weapons. He cut off dumb 2000lb bombs. This is consistent with his repeatedly stated desire to cut down on civilian casualties in certain types of offensive operations. He additionally announced another 1B in military assistance which includes tanks and APC's. Can we please get the facts right.
this was a great conversation! thank you both I needed it!
The difference between letting an 18 year old carry a gun in a war zone and an 18-year-old in the lab on the gun in the peaceful environment should be self-evident. And Mr Walsh should know that when those 18 year olds are not on patrol like when I was in the army (peace time) those weapons were locked up and stored away
I'm assuming this is snark.
There needs to be a font for "snark!"
Yep and BIDEN did do it privately. It was leaked by bibi a week earlier.