The Bulwark
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and A.B. Stoddard: Won't Get Fooled Again
0:00
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Sarah Longwell and A.B. Stoddard: Won't Get Fooled Again

First off, Nikki, you're canceled. And while Trump's out on bail flaunting his partnership with Putin and showcasing two men charged with murder, too many members of the media are covering 2024 like it's a normal campaign. Plus, Ted Cruz gets owned, Alito has too many flags, and Dems keep sending progressive DAs packing.

show notes:


Kaitlin Colllins' full exchange with Cruz on accepting election results
Tim's interview with SF DA Brooke Jenkins
Tim's playlist

Discussion about this episode

User's avatar
Sherry Mason's avatar

I knew it was going to be Dirty Work but figured it would be Steely Dan...I like this version! Great job.

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David Dickson's avatar

Figured I’d use this podcast comment thread to let you know: You might want to check in on Robert Zubrin to see if he’s ok.

He’s written a few articles for the Bulwark—and boy howdy is he big mad at you all right now. One of those “I’m an anti-Trump Republican and how dare you criticize Nikki Haley for hating Biden even more at this fragile juncture in history” types.

I’ve met Bob. Smart fellow—but also a deep believer in the value of very loudly proving how right he is, to the exclusion of all else.

You know the type—and their power on the margins they have, at the moment. :/

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Dave Yell's avatar

Great song selection A B ! Dirty Work by Steely Dan. Very appropriate.

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Dave Yell's avatar

Marco,Tim Scott and Nikki.What a trifecta for the future. (extreme sarcasm alert)

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Dave Yell's avatar

Come on Sarah, get over it. Nikki was always going to do what all Republicans have done. The only difference is she thinks it gives her a chance in 2028.

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Catherine Holcomb's avatar

Great Nikki Haley theme song- it would make a nice ad or social media post- along with clips of her doing the “dirty work”.. .mixed with her criticisms of him in the primaries and contrasted against her most recent admissions of fealty…

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Beth Cogswell's avatar

The former occupant likes to point out that Judge Marchand is from Columbia, but so is Judge Cannon.

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Kim's avatar

Love, love, love the sing at the end! Thanks for sharing.

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Lucy D's avatar

You want to say decompensate instead of decompose when talking about declining mental health.

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Fran B.'s avatar

Thanks to Tim for finally assessing Haley's character with the story about dropping her 2 friends after becoming UN Ambassador. This may be a wild swing, but when I heard the news of her Trump vote, I thought of Angela Lansbury as Eleanor Shaw in The Manchurian Candidate....manipulative. She is not evil, as far as I know.

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Charles Peyton's avatar

Er... how do I watch the video version of this? Just watched the free portion on YT, and came here thinking I could watch the rest. But is it just audio... ?

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Catherine McKalip-Thompson's avatar

I think it’s important to remember who appointed Samuel Alito and what surrounded that appointment.

Happened long before Trump.

Perhaps it indicates a much longer sabotaging of America by the Republican Party.

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Leros's avatar

One interesting Alito-Trump connection that I completely forgot about until your comment provoked me to look it up is that Alito worked for Maryanne Trump Barry (Trump's sister who later became a federal judge) when they both were in the US Attorney's office for D.N.J., and she later tetified on his behalf in his SCOTUS confirmation heating. She suddenly retired from the federal bench when the NY Times published a detailed sotry about how the entire Trump family benefited from a shady financial arrangement the Trump real estate companies had to avoid taxes.

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Maggie Noffke's avatar

Was enjoying the podcast until the janky stank of the cigar that is Comey was mentioned.

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Beth's avatar

Here's the thing, guys. Trump is never going to hire a normie like Rubio or Haley in his administration. They're all going to be people like Mike Flynn, Stephen Miller, Jason Miller, McEntee, Habba, Cheung, etc. If the Hamburger from Heaven comes down, those are the people who'll run the country.

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Leros's avatar

Don't be so sure. The Republican donor class is no doubt promising him lots of campaign $ if he picks one of their "normies" like Nikki or Mario or Tim Scott, and Trump's lizard brain (and his advisors) know he needs to win to end the federal prosecutions against him in DC and Fla and tie up the GA prosecution for years with DOJ-sponsored litigation.

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CA_Curmudgeon's avatar

Did the Black voters supporting Trump forget about the Central Park 5? The full page ad he paid for called for their execution. They lost years of their young lives in prison when they were INNOCENT! He has never apologized.

He and his father illegally marked the rental applications of minorities so they could be denied housing in Trump owned buildings.

Did the police unions supporting Trump forget about the hideous abuse of officers on January 6?

He just recently claimed that his arrests make him more popular with Black voters. The implication is that they are both innocent victims of police overreach and abuse? Insulting to both Black voters and police officers.

Did the active duty and former military personnel who wear MAGA hats forget about Trump calling men and women who died protecting our country “suckers and losers?” Do they remember his refusal to lay a wreath at an American WWII cemetery because he didn’t want the rain to mess up his hair?

Did the women supporting him forget that he loudly and proudly takes credit for overturning Roe? Do they recall his statement that there must be some punishment for women who have abortions? Do they hear him talk about restricting access to contraception? Do they remember the “Access Hollywood” tape, or the gross insults to women?

Are we in the Twilight Zone?

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Alan Acker's avatar

Every Republican office holder and every Republican who hopes to hold office must say the obligatory statement that Biden is a catastrophe or words to that effect regardless of the facts.

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Alan Acker's avatar

I believe that a significant reason why Democrats have trouble reaching many Republicans and right-leaning Independents is because so many of them stay largely if not entirely in the right-wing media ecosystem and NEVER hear any Dem messaging (and don’t want to hear Dem messaging).

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jon gazzard's avatar

BREAKING :- Netanyahu faces IDF “mutiny” | Zach Anders - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTVSW_pJF-U

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Leros's avatar

IMHO this is totally overblown. IDF is not going to mutiny.

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jon gazzard's avatar

BREAKING :- WOW the veterans groups vs GOP in North Carolina :) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5DVcU2Pg80

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Barry Coyle's avatar

I’m so so frustrated at the ineptitude of the Dems and their inability to go on the offensive. Drives me nuts. THIS why I’m still an independent. This was the first episode I couldn’t finish. Too frustrating. 🤦🏻‍♂️Yes, solid Biden supporter but dangit, Schumer, and the rest…. Lead or get out of the way. Hand the reigns to Crockett!!!

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Reldas's avatar

I think the left is right (pun intended) on one very important thing about capitalism, and that's incentive. Capitalism inherently puts greed above everything else, and handsomely rewards greed, at the expense of everyone else.

So Haley makes sense, because she and the donors prefer Trump. His penchant for violence will keep the masses afraid an inline. Crack down on protests, force women to birth kids they don't want, all to keep feeding their insatiable greed. Trump is what the billionaire class wants. The blue team wants to tax them and give workers more power and protections! That IS worse to Haley and her donors!

This is a class-war and only one side has weapons. Billionaires need the working class. We don't need them. They are destroying the country we all love.

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Robin Hawkland's avatar

Thank you for mentioning the Wall Street journal and its unabashed disregard for the seriousness of Trump, Alito, and the far right; Mona Cheron mentioned this as well this week on her weekly podcast. I listen to the potomac watch (wall street journal podcast) for a differing perspective and was disgusted by their blaming of the Alito flag on the left, the neighbors; defending Clarence Thomas. They are dangerously providing excuses and a path to morally support Trump. Kimberly Straussel has become a huge disappointment and a cleaner looking version of MTG

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Leros's avatar

WSJ is in my view the same as National Review; a once principled conservative voice (even if I disagreed with them 90% of the time) that has now just become a Trump propaganda vehicle.

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Robin Hawkland's avatar

Yes, tied up in a much more distinguished package which makes it even more a threat

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Paul Gowen's avatar

When they teased the song for the end of the show, I wondered if it would be "Dirty Work". The fact that it was, AND that he chose the King Princess remake turned it up to 11. Good work Mr Miller!

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Leros's avatar

I truly find it incredible that A.B. and Sarah thought Nikki would do anything other than this. This staggering misjudgment by both of them supports my prior thesis that A.B., Sarah (and Mona and Bill Kristol), despite their true and brave anti-Trumpism, just can't accept that the entire Republican orthodoxy and philosophy they were part of for years was and is venal, corrupt and lacking integrity, and is illustrated by people like Haley, Rubio and Scott. Tim has always seen Nikki clearly for what she really is. Kudos Tim!

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Angie's avatar

I think part of the problem with people not blinking an eye is the way a lot of media covers all these stories, they are directing people what to care about, and I think that is a bad thing for the country.

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Gail R Kelso's avatar

Re: Tim's point about predictions of a big Hillary win in 2016. I skipped voting because of a crummy day.

I am a democrat in a blue state, I honestly didn't think my vote mattered. I think Trump lost MN by only about 1%.

If today were election day, I would leave my deathbed to vote for Biden.

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KO in LA's avatar

When AB struggles with the fact that Trump's embrace of Putin doesn't seem to bother anyone, our reality is that they've created a paradigm when every accusation against Trump isn't appalling evidence of his unfitness but a relentless attack from people with Trump Derangement Syndrome. What an accomplishment - it effectively inoculates him against ANY act he commits. They never have to acknowledge his actions, just escalate the indignation against those evil Democrats weaponizing government against him.

Just as he managed to convince Americans not to believe news or facts, he has convinced his followers to ignore his crimes and abuses and instead blame our legal system for charging him with the crimes he committed.

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Linda Odell's avatar

Having already attained "absolute immunity" from his supporters and sycophants, he's working hard to secure the same from our legal system. If he is successful -- and I have no doubt his effort will continue regardless of what the Supreme Court rules on the issue now -- we all will be treated to a painful lesson on why the rule of law once mattered.

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Scott Cardwelll's avatar

More Nikki reprehensible (as if needed) pointed out by Amy McGrath - Nikki made an impassioned speech, maybe her best, defending her husband on deployment, after Trump taunted him, and all service families as "suckers and losers" and then decided Memorial Day weekend was the perfect moment to activate full spinefree craven lickspittle Nikki and support the guy who didn't want any disabled Veterans in his sight.

Now THAT'S character.

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Tai's avatar

Recalling that Jonah Goldberg called Tom Nichols and Biden Republicans cheap dates. If they are cheap dates, what does Goldberg think of Ms. Nimrata?

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Angie's avatar

He hasn't said much about it that I noticed...

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Leros's avatar

I heard Goldberg on The Dispatch today with that clown Stephen Hayes (he basically told Tim in another podcast that "Biden and Trump are both equally bad choices") and some other guy. All 3 were pretty negative on Nikki.

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Angie's avatar

Thanks

Yeah, I knew they didn't like Biden either, there was a big fight about that on the site a while back

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pfl's avatar

Tim, you make good points on Mifepristone, but I'd like to add a perspective on teens. You mention the need for a non-prescription abortion drug if a 16-yr old girl gets impregnated and parents are Fundamentalist Christians, so she can't get the drug with a prescription ...

It's complicated when children get abortions without their parents having a clue about their situation. Some parents who would not oppose abortion for their teen have struggled after discovering the damage done to a girl from a relationship with an older man or even a pimp, sometimes resulting in multiple abortions. Parents feel helpless because they didn't know so couldn't help their daughter navigate a tough situation.

Just saying that there can be a moderate backlash to progressivism when there is no alternative care for the child by the state when parents are excluded from the knowing about her situation.

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Catherine McKalip-Thompson's avatar

A judge or other third party needs to be involved as in most cases parents need to know. However if there were extenuating circumstances a judge could perhaps intervene.

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Rajeev's avatar

I so thought it was gonna be Lovefool by The Cardigans when the teaser about the music came out early in the podcast...

I know Tim like any 90s child must have fond memories of that song/music video.

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Joey Ferrari's avatar

At Trump's age he absolutely shouldn't be on Ozempic as it causes sarcopenia. Loss of skeletal muscle mass is one of the greatest risk factors for the elderly.

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DJ's avatar

Outstanding exit music today.

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Ken Lefkowitz's avatar

Harsh burn by A.B.

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ktbirdjohnson's avatar

I’d really like it if people (A.B., who I otherwise respect) who don’t spend time in San Francisco would stop parroting the bullshit Fox spreads. This is a very safe, very beautiful, very friendly city. Look at crime stats. We’re not an anomaly. Yes, this is perhaps the most progressive major city in the country. We get stars in our eyes about humane solutions for very complex social problems, and optimism and compassion sometimes lead to really dumb policies. But at least we care. Just stop the trash talk when you don’t actually know what it’s like to walk around here day to day, as a tourist or a resident. The tenderloin is very sad but it’s not actively dangerous and plenty of perfectly normal people live in apartments there and work there and eat in the pretty great restaurants and sandwich shops in the neighborhood. The continued slander of SF just buys into hateful lies from people who think rainbows are a hostile political symbol.

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Ann-Marie Gardner's avatar

I get your defense of SF, but the city has declined. I visit regularly and the downtown is empty of traffic, storefronts are empty, not only are high-end retailers gone, but lunch places are barely hanging on. Some nice neighborhoods, sure, but when the business and cultural districts are a mess, it’s a problem for the city.

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Justin's avatar

100%. I used to visit SF in the 80s and 90s and the dangers of places like the Tenderloin, parts of Oakland and other areas were way more real and dangerous than they are now. I lived in NYC when Tomkins Square was a homeless town, watch NYC 77 doco for a little peek into the past. All this blue city disaster shit is a fox talking point, and it's a bit sad to hear even Tim echo even just a little of this. It's all recency bias meets social media and right wing media. I guess I'm just showing my age.

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Calenmir's avatar

I was fully expecting to get to the end and hear "What Kind of Fool" by Barbra Streisand and Barry Gibb. RIP Sarah's eternal hope for Nikki Haley to ever do the honorable thing. Even something so low on the honorable scale as just saying and doing nothing for 8 months. Alas, it was not to be...

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Different drummer's avatar

Posted this earlier, but now can't find it so I'm giving it another shot. Saw an article on CNN last night that the Biden campaign did a pre-arranged Zoom call w/ Haley voters in several states! Are they finally doing what Sarah & co. have been pushing for?

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Rebecca K's avatar

Tim should really start a "Seth Meyers Corrections"-style Youtube show

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AC's avatar

Who’s doing the Steely Dan cover? Excellent version

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

King Princess

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M M (Lee)'s avatar

In listening to your discussion of the Trump rally in the Bronx, I couldn't help but wonder if the Trump supporters at that rally have considered what may become of them if Trump wins.

Trump already is openly promising to place millions of people on trains to Latin America. Do these supporters not realize that, under a fascist dictatorship, Americans could be sent to - not only Latin America - but also places such as Africa?

The Biden campaign might need to educate the public that what happened in 1930s Germany could easily begin happening in U.S., beginning this January.

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That_wheezing_sound_was_me's avatar

I just realized that I keep imagining Nikki Haley as having been a 1980s death metal groupie (stan, in modern parlance) because she’s gen X and because she spells name like Motley Crue’s Nikki Six. But that’s a fiction. One I created in my head so as to give her context and depth and to affix a personality that seems coherent. But in reality, she’s a blank stare as it reaches the event horizon of a black hole, panicked and sucked into the nothingness. There’s tragedy somewhere in this story of a political trajectory but it’s hard to pinpoint. It just feels gross.

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That_wheezing_sound_was_me's avatar

Do you think trumps “I want that to happen to me” re teeth was a diss at Gov Noem?

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Jake's avatar

Apple Music Playlist is updated in time for the long weekend. All the best to all of you.

https://music.apple.com/us/playlist/bulwark-pod-songs/pl.u-0embfxV15e

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Kim M Murphy's avatar

AB and Tim, if you “roofie” someone it’s for date rape. I was totally baffled about Presly’s position and his sister until you mentioned Jason Miller. “Roofie” is short for Rohypnol.

What happened to Presly’s sister was some form of assault with an abortifacient.

Please use the medically correct terms. We’ve got stupid men all over this country who don’t have even a basic knowledge of female anatomy and biology making laws about women’s bodies to force them to bear children.

Don’t add to the imprecision. You’re both parents. I know you raised your kids with age-appropriate understanding of their bodies and the bodies of other people. Help forward the knowledge that people need to fully comprehend what’s going on and to fight it.

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Christine's avatar

Thank you for this!

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Mark's avatar

If it’s any consolation, Nikki Haley doesn’t seem to believe in anything other than her continued political viability. 99% of her statements are opaque mishmashes that preserve that core value.

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Lisa Wright's avatar

I can't help but dwell on the cliche that if you can fake sincerity -- you've got it made in politics. I think that I've been hookwinked by Nikki Haley so many times because she's a good enough actress to appear authentically sincere in the moment no matter how much and how many times what she is saying conflicts and contradicts what she's said before on the same topic. I think it all goes back to the first time that she came into my consciousness ---- after the white supremacist cold blooded murder of nine Black Americans during a Bible study at the Mother Emmanuel Church where he'd been welcomed. Nikki pulled the Confederate flag from the SC State House. As a Yankee-educated transplant to northern Virginia, she was my kind of southern Republican leader for the 21st Century. I won't be fooled again.

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Kim M Murphy's avatar

You know who else was born in Colombia?

Aileen Cannon.

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Deborah L. Hall's avatar

We hope she was listening.

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David Clingingsmith's avatar

The Appeal to Heaven flag appeared a bunch in the John Adams biopic or series of ten or fifteen years ago. I’m sure Sam Alito knows what John Locke meant by that phrase.

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Suzanne Clancy's avatar

'Emigre' is the fancy version, lol.

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That_wheezing_sound_was_me's avatar

Ze aristocracy! 🙂

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Ach's avatar

I’ll just keep saying it: people like Haley are scared for the safety of themselves and their families. As the reality of Trump 2.0 sets in, they have no choice but to fall in line.

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Kim M Murphy's avatar

I call Republican Jews “Christians.”

He was on stage with murderers.

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Jeffinator's avatar

As a liberal cigar smoker a big fat sloppy raspberry for Tim.

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Kim M Murphy's avatar

As of yesterday there is a Haley Voters for Biden PAC.

POTUS met with a representative group of Haley voters last night. He went to them. They were thrilled and very supportive.

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James F.'s avatar

The media's coverage of Donald Trump's Bronx event has indeed been abysmal. The Axios headline, for instance, simply says "Trump's Bronx rally looked very different than the usual MAGA crowd". The NY Times article on it is "At a Trump Rally in the Bronx, Chants of 'Build the Wall'. Neither article mentions Trump taking the stage with rappers/gang members indicted for MURDER and other serious felonies. If Joe Biden went and had an on-stage reunion with Corn Pop, everyone would talk about how Joe Biden was weak on crime and hanging out with criminals (and about the existence of Corn Pop himself). But Donald Trump does it, and it gets almost zero coverage. It's insane.

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Leros's avatar

The NYT disappoints me more every day.

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

In 2016, the declining mainstream media gave Trump too much coverage because his over-the-top words and antics brought them much-needed ears/eyes/clicks and revenue. But in 2024, the media are passing up the sensationalistic headlines that would draw attention. Did they learn the wrong lesson?

In short, I agree with James - it's insane.

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Roderick's avatar

Tim, I would never troll your choice of words. I think you do a fantastic job. Sarah, we all feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick a football the last 8 years watching the GOP surrender to MAGA.

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mollymoe222's avatar

TBH, I envy Sarah her optimism. I really have to work at it. “Optimism is a choice” is repeated daily. But sometimes being a pessimist pays off. I was not surprised at Haley’s disgraceful flip-flop at all. It was in character.

I was chuckling at the hordes of Bulwarkers schooling Tim on emigrate vs immigrate because I wondered what he would have to say about it. And he did not disappoint. 😁

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max skinner's avatar

All the folks like Haley and others who say they won't vote for the former president but might write in someone are all hoping to maintain their status as good party members. Why? So that when something happens to the former president, they will be in a position to step up and be the savior of the party. They can't do that if they admit to voting for Biden.

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Al Brown's avatar

AB and Sarah are right about emigrate/immigrate. As usual.

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Christopher Wood's avatar

AS SIMPLE AS THIS:

Immigrants = persons coming into the country from other countries

Emigrants = persons moving within the country (Boston to L.A.), (Indiana to Seattle).

So hipsters --- realize that when you move from some groovy place in an American city to an another groovy American place...you are an emigrant.

I'm a full-on emigrant:

NYC - Erie PA, - Los Angeles - Boston - West Lafayette, IN

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Alice Taylor's avatar

I was taught that immigrant was someone moving to here from another country, and emigrant was someone leaving the US to settle in a foreign country. So if you're standing in the other place, just reverse the terms.

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Bruce Lawrence's avatar

Yes, immigrants and emigrants are the same people from different points of view.

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Christopher Wood's avatar

What the hell is the end game Haley is playing for?

1. Go back to U.N. Ambassador with Trump's blessing as havong a one-time anti-Trumper on staff. She can steer clear of Trump being in NYC, and he having a "not-so-MAGA--Conservative" in his cabinet?

2. Hops Trump eats too many "hamburders" and she can pose as the least scary character of the ReTrumpleMAGA Party?

3. Is looking for a CEO position of a conservative think tank

4. Is looking for a Senior Accountant position of a hedge fund.

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