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SPEAKER 1
Okay, we'll just get started. I'm JVL from The Bulwark here with Judd, is it Legum? Legum, that's right. Legum, that's so funny. Again, in my mind's eye, as I've read you for the last six years, it's always been Judd Legume. Which is funny because we have a joke that I also always thought that it was Don
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Lamon and not Don Lemon. And so I've classed up your last name. Judd Legum. From Popular Information, one of the earliest substacks, maybe the first political substack, and I think the most impactful of all the substack newsletters. Judd's, if you don't read it, Judd is the guy who actually gets results,
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and it's been amazing to watch the growth of popular information. Judd, thanks for carving out some time on a Tuesday to sit down with me. Oh, well, thanks for having me. That was a very kind introduction as well, so I appreciate it. Everything is terrible, as it always is when we sit down for these things.

JVL talks with an OG Substacker,

, of Popular Information about Trump’s new tariffs, the crypto grift and more.

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Tune in next Tuesday at 1:00 p.m. EST for WTF 2.0 with

.


WTF 2.0 is a pop-up show on Substack during the first 100 days of second Trump administration. Watch previous episodes, here.

Discussion about this video

User's avatar
Charmaine Berry's avatar

Ah! I want to hear the rest of his answer to your last question re why Musk is more dangerous than Trump. I have my own ideas, but I want to hear his!

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Linda Odell's avatar

Me too

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Paul Crider's avatar

I'm confused by JVL's comments about wanting the Bulwark to be the "junior varsity for the Atlantic." The Atlantic is mostly trash. The Bulwark is pretty good. The Atlantic is definitely not the "indispensable" magazine for the moment.

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Darlene Reeves's avatar

I love the Atlantic. What about do you dislike? I'm just curious. Not judging.

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Paul Crider's avatar

They're just antiwoke brain-poisoned. They run credulous articles about things like the "campus free speech crisis," and they're hostile to trans rights. I have a special hatred for David Leonhardt for his anti-immigration missives.

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OJVV's avatar

Low key modesty. (Don't believe it. Lol. He probably thought that once, now just says it with a wink and a nod. He thinks they're better.)

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Jeff Biss's avatar

As a progressive liberal, I agree with Judd about The Bulwark. My experience with people who generally vote Republican is that I share values with them, most of the differences have to do with how far one can trust government and individuals to do the right thing. I long for the GOP that existed under Nixon as he created the Environmental Protection Agency and passed the Endangered Species Act and so unlike Reagan, he used government's power for the general welfare. From what I hear, many Reagan Republicans appear to think that government has that role too, I hope that that is true.

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Gina  Bell's avatar

All this new crypto that Trump and Trump Jr are promoting is the biggest corruption scam in the history of the American presidency. My question is, if the Dems get the presidency in 2028, will the Justice dept, or what's left of it, indict Trump and Jr, or are they scared off bc of the last indictment went so wrong?

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Will G's avatar

You guys are not "the never trumpets" you are the home for the Centrists for Common Sense!

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Reldas's avatar

I only have two classes on TTh yet somehow you (conveniently) choose to go live during one of them?

Have you ever even thanked me for the tremendous words I contribute? And I have the best words, everybody says so.

I think you should apologize, to the entire world, which clearly revolves around me.

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Kathleen Linehan's avatar

Could Judd finish what he was saying re Trump v Musk, who is more important and why via you …JVL? It was getting very interesting when he froze. Thanks,

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Kris O's avatar

Loving the WTF 2.0 - thanks for bringing it on. Also loved hearing about the history of the Bulwark on Substack. I only found Substack last year and so many great journalists and people are on the platform. I thinks it’s great!

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Mirabelle's avatar

I love magazines. I have two print versions that I get. Sitting and reading a magazine is such a different experience from reading online.

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Shana Heartsill's avatar

On the "never trumper" title forever, let me tell you my one story. I am a former Republican in a ruby red state who believed in the shining city on the hill. My friend, whom I gave hell about watching Youtube because of all the hyperbole and slanted out of context quotes, left leaning podcasts, got me to listen to TYT. After the algorithm learned a little, I saw Tim, Sara, and you, JVL on a Next Level. I found my people. Conservative background, horrified by what is happening. I found ya'll after Biden withdrew and I felt a twinge of hope with Kamala entering. I mean I was there for 1.0, but being a Gen Xer I was still trying to get less slanted news from AP and Reuters. I also followed BBC, Al Jazeera, and Fox to round out my consumption. I still follow those, but you guys are my people. Sometimes I can't handle Fox, but I do try to read and listen to more than one view. Anyway, I was not with you as the OG never trumpers so maybe that is why I don't label you with only that label. You guys give me a sort of a news analysis home. I appreciate you all greatly and have hope more former Repubs can find a bit of a home with you as I have.

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Shana Heartsill's avatar

I am from a ruby red state, born and raised in dixie, so I hope you will forgive my grammatical errors I know are throughout my comments. :)

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Reldas's avatar

Howdy comrade! I'm a working class redneck socialist from Texas. We welcome every American who believes in Liberty & Justice For All.

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Sean's avatar

Really enjoying these WTF 2.0’s!!!

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Lalla Ward's avatar

Judd Legum, you have a new fan; what an interesting discussion on so many levels. Both your histories with Substack were so illuminating. So many of these platforms are constantly in danger of creating echo chambers. What I love best about The Bulwark is how it manages never to make me feel as if I am, by listening to it, creating a bulwark for myself against knowing what other people think. Yes, it massively reassures me that there are other people out there who think like I do, but not in a ‘we are right and they are wrong’ cognitive dissonance-boosting way, more by giving us facts rather than the ubiquitous bigotry in this bizarre world of ‘alternate reality’, thereby giving us considered reasons to think the way we do.

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Kentuckistan's avatar

Don't worry...Congress will save us

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Mirabelle's avatar

Any restraint the courts could institute could be easily got around by Congress passing laws against it.

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John Sanderson's avatar

Argh! I want to hear all that Judd had to say about Dr. Evil. F**king musk probably flipped a Starlink switch somewhere to interfere with Judd’s signal.

I think musk is the most dangerous, hideous, casually cruel, and frightening character on the world stage right now. But I want to hear everything a genuinely intelligent and informed person like Judd has to say about why he finds musk so troubling.

Can’t JVL get him to finish his thoughts in writing, so we (mainly so I) won’t be left hanging?

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Jean in Florida's avatar

I’ll second that!

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Cindy Hurley's avatar

All of this resonates with me and i last voted Dem, have also voted independent and early on Republican. I agree with most people who come on the Bulwark and learn from most. I wrote on my first post that we can’t wait for the non MAGA Republicans to lose their cowardness and we can’t wait for Dems to figure out how to communicate who they are and how to fight back with a felon wanna be King/Dictator. If strength comes from people like many on the Bulwark or many who are jumping onto to SubStack now, then out of these great reasonable minds has to be someone to lead us out of this hell we are in! It is no longer about your political party, maybe even a 3rd party . Bring us a leader who will not destroy what is left of democracy and decency. I will do the work along with many to support this person but i just do no know who to turn to. What i can do is on such a small grass roots level and time is of the essence!!

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Melissa's avatar

Trump gets the money and he lets Elon treat our data and programs like they’re his playground. I don’t know who I despise more. Probably a photo finish.

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Michele's avatar

Who knows if they’ve picked a few bars of gold bars to add to their wealth. They are all corrupt lying sobs. His crypto reserve is ridiculous. But my biggest fear is what if the people don’t stand up against this AND it roles on for 4, 8 or more years after this term. I don’t want my last memory to be of anger at a nation filled with too many dumb people. JVL, I give to political races, call and write my federal officials, even SCOTUS (figured letter is round-filed), stay tuned locally for any town halls, marches etc to show my anger with Rump etc. On personal side, subscribe to several sub-stacks, that I can afford. Very few residents in my senior complex want to chat. I figure now, maybe if their 401’s are going down, they will take notice.

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Linda Odell's avatar

"I don’t want my last memory to be of anger at a nation filled with too many dumb people." Right. There. With. You.

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Gene W.'s avatar

JVL, the collars on your tee shirts are all stretched out of shape. Looks sloppy. Talk to Joe Perticone. He will hook you up.

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James Brennan's avatar

Krasnov knows how to time rug-pulls!

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This Woman Votes's avatar

Crypto -- the magic internet money where the grift never stops and every scandal is somehow both obvious and completely ignored.

Trump’s Strategic Crypto Reserve (because apparently, the U.S. government now has an NFT side hustle) is the ultimate cherry on top of the corruption sundae. The guy who stiffed his own lawyers and tanked a casino is now running a federal pump-and-dump scam, and nobody cares. The whole thing is a Mobius strip of fraud: donors funnel money to Trump through crypto, Trump makes crypto a government priority, values spike, insiders cash out, and taxpayers get the bill. The government is now running a meme coin casino called PonziCoin.

And let’s not forget Barron Trump, a Crypto Visionary. Yes, the kid who was last seen dodging family Christmas photos is now the face of World Liberty Financial, which sounds less like a legitimate company and more like a scam a guy pitches you in a gym sauna.

But sure, let’s keep pretending this isn’t just a massively overcomplicated way to launder money directly into Trump’s pockets. At this point, the only way this could be more blatant is if they just airdropped bribe tokens straight into his wallet.

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mary-jo amatruda's avatar

I am getting more depressed listening to this. We can't do anything about this. It's awful

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Steve Maleski's avatar

Junior Varsity for the Atlantic magazine.....

As a long-time subscriber to the Atlantic, I couldn't have said it better! Keep on keeping on, Jonathan. : )

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Alba Corrado's avatar

I’m one of the people who follows you on the Bulwark and mostly keeps silent because you have what’s worth saying. A Democrat, old and still liberal. But I do appreciate your hardboiled pessimism, your conservatism, and your decency. More power to you, Sarah and Tim! Keep looking under the rug.

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Various internet opportunities's avatar

I think of the Bulwark as my place to understand the politics - be that right or left.

I've been a Dem my whole life. I would vote for Liz Cheney / Sarah Longwell in a heart beat.

The Bulwark taught me that. Good politics is good politics.

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Uriah heep's avatar

There is a collective amnesia on the part of many who can't recall just how terrible Liz Cheney was before she finally drew the line at, "I don't think Trump should be a Dictator."

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Lydia Ashanin's avatar

Given the opportunity, I would also vote for Adam Kinzinger as well as Liz Cheney. I am also a life long Dem, but I am finding many more voices of reason that resonate with me among the never-trumper center right. Good politics is indeed good politics.

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Michael's avatar

I really like the AMA part at the end of these interviews - really good idea.

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Eileen Kramer's avatar

Trump wants Elon to be the face of cuts that he knows will face blowback. Musk carries out Trump's orders but Trump can disavow responsibility: " Oh you don't like that? Blame Elon." He'll get rid of Musk after Musk has finished executing Trump's orders. And Trump gets off scott free as usual.

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Mr Anderson's avatar

Judd "Legoom" gave me a good chuckle to start off

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E.K. Hornbeck's avatar

And they both say Jeff Beezos! 🐝

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Leslie J's avatar

Yeah, I said john fugel sang for years. 😉

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Kelly Grey's avatar

JVL is doing a fabulous job with these WTF Substack videos 👏👏👏👏

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Paul Topping's avatar

Tariffs are a lever available to the president, so Trump has to pull it. Makes the nuclear red button even more scary.

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Sharon's avatar

Question: Speaking of tariffs as a tool for corruption, Blackrock, a company w/ a net worth in the trillions just bought the entry/exit ports to the Panama Canal from China (undercover fake tariff exchange?) for 23 billion dollars. Am I wrong in thinking that this is an orchestrated, backdoor and covert plan hatched by China and Trump to take control of the canal without negotiations with Panama?

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Lynne's avatar

Please JVL cover this Panama Blackrock news!

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David MacNeil's avatar

I regret that I have but one Washington Post subscription to cancel.

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Cale Lively's avatar

You get a tariff! You get a tariff and you get a tariff. Honestly I think we put down a lot of Trumps motivations down to malice and avarice. When in reality it’s ignorance. I think Trump honestly thinks and believes that other countries have to pay to access our markets. That they have to pay to “stay in our hotel” to use our services. I think he doesn’t actually know how the economy works. Now if he coincidentally gets a good backend commission or looks strong when people bend the knee, he is all for that. However end of the day I think the corruption is incidental, a positive off spin, of his utter stupidity. As nations call his bluff and the economy weakens he will continue to lash out in emotion and rage. He can’t admit he’s wrong, his psychopathy won’t let him. So he will continue to fight reality in a blind rage until he is stopped.

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D.C. Alverson's avatar

At a time when many of us feel helpless to stop the attack on our democracy, I want us all to pause and consider we aren’t powerless. I am offering you these questions to consider. Where or with whom do you spend your money? Do their values align with yours? Is there an alternative choice for procuring your goods and services?

This is the perfect time to answer these questions so we can inventory our spending habits, and recalibrate them appropriately. I’m not here to drop names because it is your responsibility to explore and define where every one of your dollars is going and to whom. We should first define our values and our commitment to the United States of America thriving for all, not just some.

For example, if a social media platform owner doesn’t share your values, why are you using their site? Why are you buying anything from a corporation that doesn’t share your values? If a local business such as a construction contractor or a retail store doesn’t share your values, why are you supporting them? At any other time in our recent history, these questions may have appeared extreme or counterproductive, but we live in an extreme and unproductive time.

It boils down to one word, convenience, and that’s the point. With convenience, there comes a price to pay. I dare to say these unlike-minded souls need us more than we need them if this is the path they are leading us towards. We need to tighten the collective Power of the People’s Purse, and push back with a groundshaking, window-rattling repudiation. “Hell no! This will not stand.”

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David MacNeil's avatar

Trump is taking the same approach to reciprocal tariffs as Putin takes to Ukrainian retaliatory attacks. "You don't get to attack me I'm going to get revenge." Sort of like the mouth breathers who pick a fight then pull a gun after getting punched back.

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Dave Tarpley's avatar

You both pinpoint two aspects of Trump's tariffs. Yet might there be a third? The grift angle and the king angle still don't explain why he'd risk unifying opposition to so moronic a move.

Short-sighted (blind) as he is, sabotaging the economy doesn't seem like a smart move. Yes, he can manipulate the stock market with on-again off-again tariffs. Still, at some point the psych-out has to cost him.

If we take his actions at face value, he WANTS to tank the economy. That begs a lot of questions.

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Suzanne Hanson's avatar

I just had a conversation with my daughter. She and her husband are quiet about their politics. She just told me the tariffs have already impacted there employers.

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IntheJug's avatar

No shit

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and it's been amazing to watch the growth of popular information. Judd, thanks for carving out some time on a Tuesday to sit down with me. Oh, well, thanks for having me. That was a very kind introduction as well, so I appreciate it. Everything is terrible, as it always is when we sit down for these things.