How ‘Airplane!’ Changed Comedy Forever
Episode Notes
Transcript
This week, I’m thrilled to be joined by David Zucker, Jim Abrahams, and Jerry Zucker to discuss their new oral history, Surely You Can’t Be Serious: The True Story of Airplane! In this episode we discuss, among other topics, what set the ZAZ style apart from other titans of the 1970s/1980s comedy boom, how the serious actors on set nailed their deadpan comic patter, trying to nail comic timing in test screenings that weren’t generating many laughs, and how Jeffrey Katzenberg and Michael Eisner helped change the face of comedy by championing the movie during their tenure at Paramount. I cannot recommend this book enough if you love Airplane! and it’d make a great gift for the person in your life who never stops telling you they picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with a friend!
This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
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Okay. This is what Jerry’s voice sounds like.
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And I’m Jim Abrams,
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and I’m David Zucker.
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And I am Sunny Bunch. I’m a culture editor at the Bulwark, and I’m very excited for this episode of the Bull Bulwark goes to Hollywood, because I am talking to David Zucker, Jim Abraham’s, and Jerry Zucker, the Zucker Abraham Zucker team, for, about their new book, Shirley, you can’t be serious, the true story of airplane, and also about the making of airplane and all sorts of other stuff. Again, This is a this is a real exciting episode for me as a as a fan. As somebody who was born into the world that you guys made, I don’t mean to I, hopefully, I’m not making you feel old by saying that, but I I I, like, I exist.
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It’s too late to make us feel young.
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Yeah. But I I I again, this is this is just a it’s a very exciting episode for me. Because I would say that my, you know, the the world comedy as I understand it was dev defined by airplane, you know, animal house national lampoon that said Mel Brooks And it’s it’s weird to kind of look back at that period of time because it’s you have you have this comedy explosion in the nineteen seventies, early nineteen eighties. That has really not been rivaled since. I I’m curious to get your guys take on what, what it was about, what it was about that time that led to this and also how airplane kind of compares to the different comic stylings of those, other filmmakers.
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Well, airplane was different, you know, when it came out because it was the first time a comedy was, made without comedians. And that also made it kinda difficult to pitch to studios because we had to pitch. We’re gonna do this without comedians, and they’re and we’re first time directors, and they’re three of us. So, but I think it was a big departure because even the the, the movies that we liked, which were, you know, the Marks Brothers, woody Allen, Mel Brooks, all used comedians. And and so we just completely departed from that.
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I mean, it’s included two big things. One, just how serious the actors played it. And we always used to say, don’t play it straight. Pretend that you don’t even know you’re in a comedy. And be completely naive to it, which had never been done before, and then the pacing of the jokes that they came so fast.
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And I think those were the two things that were pretty different than others.
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And kinda hard to duplicate. You know, we had our training. We didn’t realize it, but we got our graduate degree in comedy. Because we had we had started a small theater, all Kentucky fried theater in Madison, Wisconsin, and none of us is very comfortable on stage, nor is any of us particularly funny. But we got up on stage, and we did jokes, and we learned how to edit how to cut stuff out that wasn’t really working and to move on.
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And I think that’s a what Terry was alluding to too when we were talking about pace.
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Yeah. I mean, the pace is, the pace is something else. I was saying before before the, the show started, that I I watch I rewatched it on Blu Ray, you know, by myself sitting sitting sitting alone in in my own room by myself, just, you know, watching it.
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That’s why
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I see it.
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Right. Which is, you know, nobody around me laughing, you know, kind of And I and I was saying I was it’s it’s actually it’s almost intimidating to watch and just analyze on a joke level because the joke density is so Thick. I mean, it is every it feel there must have been two gags a page. I like, it it’s a it’s a it’s a crazy thing to watch and just break down. Moment to moment.
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I think we saw no reason to have anything that wasn’t either a setup or a punch line. And then when we got to paramount, they assigned us a story editor who really emphasized that to make jokes, plot points, and plot points jokes. And I don’t think you had thought about it before, but I think also when you’re doing a satire, and people aren’t as immersed in the nuances of the characters. In other words, in a normal romantic comedy, Oh, she’s so cute and funny. He’s so, you know, charming, but he’s got these weird, probably, whatever.
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And I think airplane, everybody was so kinda so straight and and that you, we just had to keep doing jokes because it wouldn’t survive on just I mean, we certainly did a lot of, moments, to to let people absorb the story and care about the characters But it’s very different than the characters in a romantic comedy.
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And you and there’s an appreciation or romantic comedy on a on a very different level. And nonetheless, when the plane is coming in for a landing, people who are watching it even today say, you know, they’re worried. Is the plane gonna land? Despite the fact there was a a blow up autopilot to and, pilot has a problem drinking and, also, just stuff like that. And they’re also really happy to see the boy and the girl get back together.
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And I think at the time that we made it, I don’t think we care. We just we just wanted to get do the jokes at the laughs, and then it was later we realized what a gift was to have that great, Arthur Haley story and characters.
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Well, can we talk about that a little bit? Because that’s the thing I I totally learned from the book. I didn’t I I was not aware, ahead of time that it was actually, you know, a pretty straightforward remake just periodically, of, a a movie from the, I nineteen fifties, Bulwark and white, you know, kind of b movie from the from the fifties.
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Nineteen fifty seven. And we just happened to discover it, you know, while we were doing our live theater show, we would have video tape segments, and so we would do commercial therapies. And, we would leave the tape recorder on all night and in the morning, cleared off to get the commercials, but, which were running during these, you know, black and white movies. And so one such morning, we got really kind of engrossed in this the movie, and it was zero dollar. And so our first thought was maybe we could redub this with our voices, and then it was a short leap from that too.
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Why don’t we just remake the move?
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Cyrwall was actually a nineteen fifty seven black and white Melodrama starring Sterling Hayden and Linda, darnell and Daniel Andrews, and it had this story of this guy with PTSD was to get on a plane to, overcome his demons and get the girl back. There’s actually one of the iconic lines in zero. Our is we need to find someone who not only can fly this plane, but who didn’t have fish for dinner. Yeah. And that was a tremendous gift from it also had a a line at the beginning relatives of the love story where the girl says to the boy at the beginning, I can’t live with a man.
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I don’t respect. And that was written by Arthur Healy, although at the time, most people assumed that was written by David based on many of his, relationships.
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I, I, I wanna come back to the actors cause you mentioned, you know, the seriousness of the actors. Again, I I live in a a universe in which Leslie Nielsen has always been a great comic force. You know, and that obviously is not always, the case or or Robert Stack, you know, not, he still had, you know, unsolved mysteries and everything, but, like, he is, he is a a comic figure to me. But, you know, obviously, the studio was a little bit nervous about that. Right?
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Well, not really so much about that. You from the first time, we went into Paramount and pitched this idea Michael Eisner, we said we wanted to cast, you know, guys like Robert Stack, Grades, Nielsen and Bridges. And they were fine with that. I think they were less comfortable with not casting, a star comedian like Chevy Chase or Bill Murray at fine in the strike goal. That we had to go through a a lot of machinations, but the studio would have would suggest you know, the comics for those.
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But I they were the studio was fine with with the, you know, this what we call the steps, the you know, those straight actors. There was a time when they wanted to fill it with comedy cameos, a lot of the smaller parts, and We were very lucky to avoid that. Actually, in a few cases, Howard, w Potch, who is a producer on it. The wonderful, wonderful guy. And he would call these agents and say, look at you.
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We’re making the offer, but between us, you don’t want your client in this. It’s all this stuff. And he was I mean, Howard was great. He really helped us get through the studio politics. There’s a lot about this in the in the book.
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But if if without Howard, I think that three of us would have everything that they wanted that we thought was wrong. We would have stormed up into Katzenberg’s office and say, well, you can’t do this. We’re quitting. Forget it. You know?
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And and how said, let’s just play it out, you know, and and, that always worked. He was he was always right.
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So then the actors themselves though we’re a little bit, unsure how to play it at first. Right? They you you talk about this in the book about how they were, you know, they’re serious guys. They’re they’re they thought we need to put some comedy spin on it, and they didn’t realize that you wanted them for the seriousness.
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Right. Especially Loyd Bridges, I think, tried to make sense out of his dialogue, and and wanted to play a funny. And I think we he needed a little more a guide. But even Leslie, we we sent him home after the first Abel we had where I think he put a little spin on it. And we sent him home with a a video of zero hour, and we said we want you to be, you know, this doctor and not be aware you’re in a climate
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In defense of bound, in defense of them, they were all experienced actors, and they were used to having a character what’s the background and a story to tells it if for no other reason than just make their performance real. But all we wanted them to do is say the lines like they didn’t know they were in a comment.
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They all had actually had very different reactions. You know, Leslie said I would have paid them to do this, and he after we showed him, you know, told him exactly what we needed. He was, he loved it, and he’s, you know, he’s a comedian. And and finally, he’s given the chance to do that, which he always wanted. And then, I, stack always just said, I get it.
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We’re the stooges. You know, you he got we were making fun of them. In a way, but he was he was up for it. And and man, Peter Graves, just thought this script was a pile of crap. He didn’t thought it was just disgusting, but Howard knew him and brought him in to meet us.
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And I guess he thought we weren’t such, the horrible drug advocacy that we seem to be, maybe, from writing this. And he and I think his family really liked it. So I just said, okay. And he was in for many in for a pound. He just never after he signed in, it said, yes.
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He just never questioned it. And it was great to work with. And and Lloyd was the one. And you can see it a bit in its performance. Just wanted to be a little bit more wanted to put a little spin on it, and so we were holding him down a lot, but but, after he, but he was great.
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And I think it’s a good texture, actually, in the end, and and He was, after he saw the film, he loved it, and and then went on to do the hotshots movies.
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And when you think about it, that’s, you know, all we’re trying to do is make people realize they’re you don’t have to take everything so seriously. And when those guys signed, you know, you can have laughs at your own expense. And when those guys signed on, to do airplane, they art of their what they did was make fun of their own images, you know, stack and graves and Lloyd at these very serious images, and they were willing to take pot shots of those. And I think that’s one of the it’s sort of an enduring aspect
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to And in a different way, Kareem?
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Yes. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Have
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school. The, you know, it’s funny. Korean at Blul jabbar’s performance in the movie was recently kind of lampooned on you know, the the HBO show winning time, which, which struck me. I from what from what I remember hearing at the time and from what I read in your book was totally unfair. The the the the way he was portrayed as reacting to the young child actor
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We agreed to be in that scene, and and, you know, unfortunately, we didn’t read the script before we we appeared as ourselves. And we were surprised on the set when Korean you know, tells the kid fuck off. You know, it just totally mean to the kid. And and I am I I have then I we were shocked, and I called up the kid, the the guy who played the kid. I forgot his name.
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Who is now, you know, forty nine or something. But, and, well, he said, to the contrary, Kareen was a gentleman, always treated him you know, very receiving, very respectful and kind, you know, none of that it was that that TV show was complete fiction. And I guess they did the same with Jerry West character. I don’t know what Jerry West but but the three of us sent a letter to the editor. We just was so embarrassed by that.
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The the way they they portrayed Coim on set on the airplane set.
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Did you guys hear from Creme afterward?
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We did. I think we or we we called his manager or person His agent said he appreciated it. Give me an after the letter we wrote.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah. I think his agent, at one point, was manager said, she pre he appreciated that we had done yet.
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Alright. So one one one guy who was playing it straight the whole time. The the one character, actor in the movie, of course, is, Stephen Stucker, who, is is if again, if you’re if you’re watching it, it it’s it’s he’s he stands out because he’s the guy who is doing, like, kind of things you would expect more in a a raucous farcical comedy. And I was fascinated to learn about him in in the book just like the the performance on the stage with you guys. I tell can you can you tell the the listeners a little bit about Stephen Stucker and how you guys came to know him and how he came to be in the movie?
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When we first, moved to LA, we had we were doing our, show in Madison, Wisconsin, And there was piano player who was part of that, and then we moved to LA, and the piano player chose not to come with us. So we put out feelers around LA, like, is there anybody you know who can play the piano and, participate in in our show. In one day, while we were building the theater, hammering and nailing, we actually took our Piano from Madison to LA for the for the theater in LA. And one day, while we were hammering and nailing this guy, Watson. And it was stuck.
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Anyways wearing these gold and black weather, lo mee pants, and some wide open shirt with tons of jewelry and levered thongs up to his niece and At that point, I had never known an outed gay person, and he was sensational. He was hugely funny. But in as fun as he was, he was that great a pianist. I mean, he had been as a kid, a soloist with the Cleveland symphony artist. So he’s a brilliant and a genius musician and who we just happen to stumble for us is he came in looking for a job.
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Anyway, I will say that that, it took us a while to get used to him because he’s so different, you know. And I think what we eventually realized that Instead of trying to get him to play things straight, like we sort of tried to do, we realized he’s the joke. You know, other people can play it straight, and then let Steve come in for the punch line or the gag, and that’s, and and and that’s the way it it worked, but I I don’t think we would have ever written that part. Had we not known, Steven? I mean, there’s just you know, it was we wrote it for him because we thought he would be really funny at it.
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As a matter of fact, Steve wrote all his own lines because We did we can’t write for him, really. He’s just so he’s so crazy and and and funny and and so we would call him up on the phone and say, okay. Nah. Here’s the here’s the straight line. What kind of a plane is it?
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You know, the reporter’s asked, and he just and and he just thought for a second and that’s, oh, it’s a big white one with a red stripe, like, a big tile and all. You know what I mean? He’s just he could just rattle those things off, you know. So it was he’s he’s unique. And we were we’re very lucky to find him for the theater and also, have him for the movie.
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I I I’m curious how audiences reacted to him in the movie, certainly in in particularly in some of the early test screenings because I you know, there was, in in the book, you talk a little bit about his performances in the theater and sometimes audiences didn’t quite gel with what he was doing and he would get angry. He would get angry at them. That was one of my favorite stories in the book. I’m, you know, flipping out on the, I don’t what is what were they dentists or what the
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dentist or something. I think that was just one time actually or maybe it was one other, but in general, they loved Steven, which is why he was so aggravated when they when they didn’t. But but, the movie, he always played great. I mean, he he loved him and moved.
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And in many ways, he said, the, you know, the story of the fly down and everything takes place in the third act when he shows up, then in many ways, he sort of carries the third act with his humor and his unique take on things.
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Yeah. Let’s let’s talk a little bit about some of the test greetings because I again, one of one of the things really interesting, was was hearing you guys talk about molding molding sets molding shows, molding the movie to laugh. Like, not not being able to hear the laughs and, messes with the rhythm of of the comedy. So, when you’re when you’re sitting there in a, you know, in an early preview screening, and, it’s either not full or it’s there there there’s I think there’s a story. You guys have a story about only one guy in one of the theaters laughing and you time the whole thing to him How how did that work for you?
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How was that? How what was that process like the the test screening process?
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Well, that for well, actually, for all of the comedies we’ve done, I’m sure it was it’s been true for you guys too, but the first screenings are terrible because you don’t know what’s what’s going to be funny. And so you you put in the movie has to be end up at, like, eighty five minutes. Like, you put, you know, fifteen more minutes in the movie, but you don’t know which is too what’s too funny, what needs to be trimmed. So you have to go through that for a screening in in the case of airplane. It was on the paramount lot or thirty executives because, the head of the studio didn’t want us to take out the movie off the lot until the executives had seen it.
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So, and and the the audience recruiter was incompetent. And so we we ended up out on Melrose Boulevard roping people into the screening. Hell, we’re in online for happy days in Laverne and Shirley, the the TV shows. And, and for for many of them, I think that English was not their first language. And and so and for companies, audience would work out at the, and so that his screen was whole.
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And this was the first time the executives had seen. So it’s like yeah. If I don’t know if you know, we’re already, you know, we survived the first day without being fired. I bet they all thought. Well, maybe they could still fire us.
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Well, but then, you know, someone like Katzenberg was really important because he came and he kind of said, don’t worry about this. This means nothing. We’re gonna go back and we’ll trim all the fat out of the movie, and that’s what we did. And so the then we had I could two weeks later, we had us speaking at University of California at Davis. And that was that was great.
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So that was I think that was the big breakthrough for us that the movie actually worked. We also always recorded the the audience reaction. In fact, we’d set up a camera to film the screen and and hear, but it would be set back so you can hear the audience And, the the screening filming the screen was just so we knew where we were in the movie. But but we listen carefully to the laughter, not only what got a laugh and what didn’t, but what peak of the laughter is and where started to die down. And and that first screening, that you mentioned editing it to one guy, we had recorded that too.
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So we listened to one laugh, but he had a sense of humor that actually helped. I mean, it that was that sort of worked.
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And and in the book, you talk about how all of these executives who were, you know, watching the movie, they’d been seeing the dailies, and everybody was excited about the dailies. It was is, you know, un unprecedented. People wanted to actually come to the daily, review session.
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That that’s why the that first screening was so weird because, all these people who love the dailies, saw that, well, after all that, the movies doesn’t work. So, you know, we’ll we’ll write this one off.
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I I think Yager, even within the Mashing nations, of a single studio, there are lots and lots of politics, and I’ll bet there were people at that screening who weren’t exactly rooting for airplane to be a success. Right. There was I think
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the guy we mentioned was Don Simpson, who he never liked it. And, and so and there we are. We’re sitting there. We’re just absolutely so buffed after this being. He he’s filing out with the rest of the audience.
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He, and he says to us, well, that was, interesting.
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Yeah. That’s that’s a death. Thanks. It’s death right there. I so, I can I ask a little bit about Jeffrey Katzenberg and Michael Eisner?
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Because it’s I’m I Wait. You I okay. We’ll talk. Well, I’ll move on.
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No. No, dear, of course.
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I I I, I the I I find I find the Catsenberg Eisenhower, Eisner team very interesting because, for reasons unrelated Secret Podcast. I’ve been reading a bunch about nineties Hollywood Disney, you know, DreamWorks, whatever. And I I feel like every time I turn a page Katzenberg is there. And so I I start reading your book, and I’m like, oh my god, Jeffrey Katzenberg again. This is, this is another here he is, here he is again.
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Well, could you could you talk about how he helped shaped, how he helped shaped the movie, how he helped you guys through the process? And whether or not the you you guys think the movie would have worked would have ended up working without him and Eisner kind of they’re championing championing you guys.
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Well, we needed all the champions we could get, and and, Jeff Katzzenberg, It is one of the most effective, and confident executives we’ve ever worked with I I think. And he great thing about Jeffrey is he was always honest. You know, if there were bad there was bad news or something that he wanted, he’d just tell us. Or or what is opinion. But on the other hand, he wasn’t, he didn’t have his own, I shouldn’t say agenda, but he he he wasn’t trying to, creatively, move us in some way or not.
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He just was, there to tell us what what the what was going on and and what we had to do, and and he was always a supporter. He, you know, and and also, I think Eisner depended on Jeffrey to, in effect, wrangle us. And so when we were because we were kind of you know, somewhat I wouldn’t wouldn’t say temperamental, but, you know, when they there was a file there They just What?
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What? We’re way fragile?
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Yes. Gradual uppity that we they uppity, we wouldn’t they they wouldn’t let us direct. And we were getting very nervous. And so we decided to leave the studio and go with some other company who was gonna let us direct. And so we we have that.
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We talked about this in the book. You know, we had I had a call with Jeffrey and we’ve we explained to him why we were leaving. And thank you, but, you know, thank you for everything, but we’re leaving. And then it took at Zenberg, like, two minutes to explain to us why that was probably not a good idea. I think it was at least eight minutes.
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Eight minutes. Makes you better thoroughly, let’s see. Let’s
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With a downstream fast, it
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doesn’t sound believable.
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Well, we’ll compromise it in fact. The other thing that Eisgar and Katzenberg did is they assigned a creative executive. You’re saying it’s Tom Perry to to help us. And, I think we mentioned this, But that’s what he was the one who really focused on story, and he’s the one who kinda led to the flashbacks between Ted and Elaine and their romance. And so the studio is extraordinarily helpful.
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In in actually writing the script as well as, obviously, the production. And we had said, you know, we were afraid Oh my god. The studio’s gonna put their hands on
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the script and ruin it, but, it actually made it better. So we’re very fortunate to end up at Charmont, and then A lot of what Catzenberg said in in the book, we did e o, like about the Barry Diller, the chairman of Paramount the time, established a culture there of taking risks and not being afraid of failure. And, that’s important. But and they were They were willing to do a movie like Airplane, whereas today, I don’t know if there’s any studio who would take that kind of risk.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. It is a another Jeffrey story is that years later after airplane, and I was directing some movie by myself, and it was at Disney. And we were putting the final mix on the sound, and I had to get to the mix stage at eight o’clock in the morning. And I’d when I got there, Jeffrey was just walking out of the mixed stage because he wanted to hear the final mix on some other movie that Disney was about to release. And he wanted to to hurt himself.
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So I think, among all of his other attributes, he was a creative guy too. And he, why’d he, oversaw, creative aspects of these puppies?
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Yeah. I, are So I wanna I wanna talk about the actual book itself because it’s it is a it is a it is a it’s a really I the thing I was most struck while reading it, where all of the quotes from all the people, you guys talked to. Did you interview, folks like Bill Hader and, Dave Dave Letterman, or were were they
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We we are talking about
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our a
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guy named Will Harris, did the interviews and actually kind of originated the idea for the book in a way because he had done an oral history for, with the onion. And and he was, you know, it was not very long, but it was you know, you talked to a bunch of people, and we thought that was kinda cool. Maybe we should do an oral history.
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Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s a it’s a maze Again, like, just the the the quotes from everybody in here, in I I cannot recommend this enough if you are, if you’re a fan of the movies, Do you have, if you have anybody in your life who is a fan of airplane, you you gotta you gotta get this book for them for Christmas or I don’t Thanksgiving.
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No. Don’t wait that long. Here’s
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or or right. Yeah. Get it right now. Actually, go to the store and buy buy it now and save it
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for Christmas.
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Go to me.
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Buy the book now, read it, and then give it to someone for Christmas. Yeah. That seems the smartest.
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Well, or buy it now, read it, and then give somebody a new copy. Right? Like, you want to look at it. That way you sell two copies. Yeah.
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No more. I’m how can you guys out here?
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You should work for the marketing. Oh, yes.
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There’s gonna be there’s gonna be a link to the to the Amazon page in the newsletter, that this goes out with. So everybody check it out. We I’ve I’ve we’ve we’ve we’ve hit thirty minutes here. I always like to to close these interviews by asking if there’s anything I should have asked. There’s anything you folks, you think folks should know about either airplane or the book or just life in general, what what what should folks know that I did not ask?
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How it how it ended up that the three of us are each incredibly handsome?
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How did you guys get such good looks? Is it diet exercise?
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You know? Well, Vitamin? I I can just Well, luck of the genes, you. I think with all this, every gene fell into place.
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Excellent. Alright. Well, thank you very much for being on show. I really appreciate it. Again, the name of the book is Shirley.
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You can’t be serious, the true story of airplane, by David Zuckerberg, Jim Abrahambs and Jerry Zucker, who have been very kind to put up with me on the show today. Thank you so much. Guys for doing it. I really appreciate
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it.
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My name is Sunny Bunchump, culture editor at the Bulwark, and I’ll be back next week with another episode of the Bulwark goes to Hollywood. We’ll see you guys then.
