Alex Holder: A Weird, Simple Man

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark podcast. I’m Tim Miller in for Charlie Sykes today who’s on a well deserved vacation. I’ll be here with you for the next two days. I have two fantastic guests and you guys are gonna enjoy it. Thursday JBL is in.

And boy, am I jealous of his guest on Thursday, Friday Mona’s in the hot seat. So we’ve got a good week for you. While Charlie tends to the grandchildren. Today, I have a wonderful guest, Alex Holder, a documentary filmmaker whose new movie unprecedented, you can watch right now on Discovery Plus. But before we get to the guests, I just want to talk briefly about the news from my old friend Lindsey Graham.

Over the weekend saying that there’ll be riots in the streets if Trump is prosecuted. You know, for those who haven’t made it through the book while we did it, I told a story about me and Lindsay. Sitting in a bar in New York, now get your head out of the gutter people. Everything was good. Jeb was there too.

Whereas after a long day on the campaign trail, and Man Jabber drinking Scotch, Lindsay was having a buttery shard, and he went on and on deep into the night to Jabbs and go ahead, frankly, ranting about how much he hated down. Trump was a racist, how Trump is a jerk, and how he’s awful, and how we we can’t let him win, we can’t let him win. And and I kind of write about this and and looking back on it, and and and trying to kind of understand how somebody that could have such a strong moral and ethical view against Donald Trump could justify doing the kinds of things that that Lindsay Graham has come around to. I look back on that now. I think maybe I I misunderstood thing that Lindsay was arguing.

That whole night he was arguing within the context of how Donald Trump can’t win because of these things. And and I think that there is a direct line between that conversation and Lindsey Graham’s feeling on January sixth that he was ready to move on to Donald Trump. As he believes that everyone else is gonna be ready to move on from Donald Trump. And I think now we’re actually seeing the true manifestation of Lindsay Graham. Somebody whose top priority who wanted so much to be near power, not in power, but near power and around power.

He wanted to win so badly that now he recognizes clearly, finally, after like a decade, his own voters for who they are. And what they’re willing to do and what he needs to do to stay in their good graces. And I think that it’s pretty debased when you think about it. And I thought that it was an interesting thing for us all to ruminate on the y and zigram question because I think we have a lot more clarity. And as we move into this conversation with our with our guest today.

I’m excited to have somebody who was able to achieve access to power. And so able to be around power without having to lower themselves. To the degree that that Lindsay Graham has to show everybody if that is possible. But first, I wanna have a quick interlude from our friends at widespread PAC. Man, we’re gonna get into some dirty business.

Alex Holder, I’m just so so happy that you’re willing to do this. We had just quite a chance marvelous serendipitous first meet up in Washington DC in late June, I guess it was. I think that you had been subpoenaed by the January sixth committee on Tuesday. Was having my book launch party on Saturday, and a mutual friend said, did you see the news about this guy? I got subpoenaed.

I’m with him. And and wanna come to the point of view. Can him and his crew come along? And I said, yeah. Sure.

No. Whatever. No problem. We’d love to see everybody. And what I did not realize was that you know, you’d be be pulling up black SUVs full security.

Right. Worried worried that the deferrables were coming for you. What was that first week like for you after kind of the reveal to the world that you had that had this footage that that had been, I guess, a relatively closefold secret up until that point. Yeah.

I mean, it was completely crazy. I mean, the I think I was actually remembering a moment where this all started. I was sitting in LAX airport. This is before I had security and before the shit hit the fan flying out for the the subpoena in DC. And it was me and my lawyer Russell.

I’m sitting at the Hard Rock Cafe restaurant thing in LAX. And behind me this is massive TV screen that turned my head randomly and see literally like the banner at the bottom saying, British filmmaker, Alex Holden, as a picture of me, they got off the website. And I was like, what the fuck is going on? I mean, it was absolutely insane. And then when we arrive into DC, there’s literally the big black suburban is there and there’s a guy that’s actually managed to get through security on the other side, like on the air side, like like sort of frogmarched me out the airport.

There was two of them actually. Oh, man. That’s legit. It was pretty crazy the whole thing. Yeah.

Absolutely. And then and then I end up at your party with every single political journalist in America. Guys old man.

It was maybe a bad judgment call for you to show up there, but I I liked it. It brought an era of seriousness to the proceedings. I was like, you know, once you get security dudes there. But I I wanna just dive back a little bit before that because, you know, you can be a little cheeky, you breath. So I’m gonna be a little you with you for a second.

I hope you don’t get too offended, but I was looking at your little CV here. And your previous documentary before this one which you can watch on Discovery Plus called unprecedented.

That

was a documentary about a group called The Bad Boy Chiller crew. I’m in the music, but I don’t I’ve never heard of the Bad Boy chiller crew. Looks like an electronic outfit. So how like, can just can we get to square one? I mean, how did you end up being the last person to interview Donald Trump before he he left the White House.

Like, where did it start? What was the embryo? Did you pitch them? Did Someone come to you. Oh, he really loves the bad boy chiller crew.

That’s how he goes.

No. Is that he loves the queen and the bad boy chiller crew? Exactly. Exactly. No.

I think with previous projects, there are sort of associations with projects that you have where you didn’t have much material impacts. I wouldn’t want to take away any of the credit for those that weren’t very hard on that particular show. Okay. The the the the documentary I’d done previous to to that was a was a documentary feature about this neo Nazi who discovered that he was Jewish. He has actually set up the largest far right party in in Europe.

And, yeah, he was now spoken out to see Mike sort of like a little mini Hitler and he’s all based in Hungary. And he discovers that he’s Jewish, which is kind of a problem if you’re a neo Nazi. And he’s then fired from his own political party that he had set earlier set up and then embraces Orthodox Judaism. And now actually quite well, it was at the TriBecker Film Festival and And that sort of started this journey of me, you know, falling in love, I guess, with documentaries. And I’ve been working on this project.

It’s not finished yet still. In the making about the Israeli Palestinian conflict and during the process of making that. So I picked these really easy subjects and And so during the process of making that, I was in the States, and I interviewed various people that had connections with the Trump White House and

through, like,

Abraham Accord’s and whatever. Exact exactly. Exactly. And then through that, I was introduced to the family. But, I mean, the pitch really originate to various people that were close and associated with the Trump family was it’ll be really cool to make a documentary about president Trump and his and his Elder’s Kids.

And this is around about February twenty twenty. So before COVID hits America, And and it it was a ridiculous pitch. I mean, everyone wants to make a film about the sitting president of United States. He’s a specially done old truck. Right?

And his kids. But I think the way this family operates is it’s sort of like a mafia type family. Right? So so it starts with the family. So anyone a family knows who immediately gets sort of quote unquote access.

And then friends, but friends who they’ve known for twenty, thirty years and who worked for them over time. So it’s all about loyalty and relationship. And I think that the introduction to them was the first difficult thing. Right? And at the end of the day, they’re big boys and big girl and and I told them what I want to do and what I was not willing to do, and and they were all for it.

And and I think the reason they were for it was really down to this Huber I mean, they were gonna repeat the twenty sixteen election. The polls were all wrong. And as Don Junior likes to say to everyone, let’s make Liberals cry again. So that was that was the premise. I think that was the main reason they were very, very confident.

And then perhaps after that, it was that I didn’t really have much political or any political skin in the game in the fact that I’m not Americans. So they they obviously have a deep mistrust towards what they call the mainstream media. And I think that was Yeah. Well,

I would tell you to tell you or Magna. I mean, just just tell you to think that a British And Trump has to have, like, an eighteen percent approval rating in Britain, and you I guess, you’ve done a documentary about former anti semites. So, you know, I just it doesn’t seem like you would have been a I don’t know. It would have seemed like they would have gotten a recommendation from Steve Bannon or something instead of Right.

Yeah. I mean, the introduction for sure is important. But maybe it was the way I came across, which was I want to hear from you. And, yeah, you guys have been complaining for so long about the way you’ve been covered. So here I am.

Let’s do this. And let’s use the campaign. It’s like the backdrop for this for this this chronicle of what’s gonna happen next. And I think look, I mean, I certainly just think they were gonna try and destroy democracy at that point. And definitely beauty of documentary is not knowing what’s gonna happen next.

Right? So following it through, and and to be honest, the project didn’t happen in this seamless way. I mean, there was lots of stops and starts and and just crazy shit happening all the way through. I mean, that’s Oh, but

Yeah. I I’m sure people wanna hit behind the scenes, etcetera. But before we do it, let’s just get the basics down because I was trying to see this

out as

we watched it. So you did three interviews with Trump, and then it looks like several with the kids and maybe one with Mike Pence. So so what what’s just a really quick chronology if a first interview happened and and how many you had

with each of them? Sure. So we started off with Eric at Trump Tower. And then following the Which is

what? Like, summer or before the election? That

was in September. September. September. Okay. Yeah.

And then Eric invited us on the campaign after we did the interview with him, and we were filming with him on in Nevada and Vegas. And we put together a little clip, and then we showed it to his sister, Ivanka. And she was like, I want that. So we then so we then joined on. But that’s it sort of evolved over, like, this whole thing.

We did this so we did it with Ivanka. Trade

on their vanity. I see. Okay.

Now now Yeah. That was exactly right. And to be honest, they did do a lot of campaign rallies in one day. So the only way of of catching up with them was for us to charter a private plane. So literally in this private plane flying across America trying to catch up with Ivanka and her team.

So we

did

it Ivanka, and then we then did an interview with her at their hotel in DC, of which she spent about ten minutes talking about how she designed it, was fascinating, obviously. And Don Junior’s interview actually was about four or five days before election day, actually, which is pretty remarkable. And we also joined Don on the campaign rallies that he did. And then we would make a interview the president, but then he unfortunately got COVID on the same day that we were at the White House interviewing Jared Kushner. And I actually got to bed that night.

I mean, you can’t really make the stuff up. I mean, every single day, there was almost something happening that we were in some way, you know, close to. So we’re in the warehouse with the very people that potentially could have also got COVID as well. And I remember going to bed early that night waking up and seeing my phone had basically exploded and it sounds like somebody had died because I couldn’t really work out what was going on. And that night was when Trump revealed that he had COVID or or was being taken I think that that later that day he was taken So then we didn’t get him and then we were then invited onto Air Force One and to interview him on Air Force One.

Which is a pretty fucking cool thing to do. Right? I

mean,

I know I know we have to say that sentence. Right? I was on Air Force One. And we so we weren’t on Air Force One. And then we were meant interview on that, and then Mark Meadows came up and said that he couldn’t do the interview because he had to take a an important phone call.

Which if memory serves me correctly, I’m ninety nine percent sure that phone call was with the president of Russia, that in Putin. And I remember Thank you. Have

you seen anything since that? I was gonna ask you about that. This was in my rapid fire questions at the end because you mentioned that when you talked to Ryan Liz Has that ever been confirmed that he had talked to Putin nine days before the election?

So a reporter did a real deep dive into this. And worked out that that very day Putin had made a statement against Trump. Something to do with Biden’s son or something. So there was some statement that happened that day that Putin came out with it. So That was

when Trump had asked Putin to trumped us so much in saying, Shadi, kinda Shadi, Shadi. But, like, it was the day that Trump had asked Putin to help him with the Hunter Biden ducks. It was, like, a flash back to, you know, to give me the Hillary emails and and Putin had, I guess, said something just

messaged me about that. Right. Right. So yeah. So it seems to be too much for coincidence for for that not to have been the the case.

And I remember really clearly thinking like, oh, fair enough. I mean, like, you know, so he could take his cold with just Russia and I’ll wait.

Mark Mattis doesn’t seem smart enough to be trolling you about that. I guess I guess that’s the only other planation I could think of is that he was crawling here, but that doesn’t mean I mean, to

be honest, not I mean, all the people that I came across, you know, during making this work, we’re really very unimpressive, actually, surprisingly. But but anyway, we we so we didn’t do the interview with him on on Air Force One. But we did see how Trump uses the machinery and the apparatus of the presidency to, you know, agenda this image to his to his fans, which is pretty remarkable. I mean, it’s almost like Kim Jong Unlike. I mean, you know, he uses all the all the things.

There’s just one hilarious story where he actually times the takeoff of Etheros one to coincide with the crescendo of Nessendoma, which is just absolutely outrageous and hilarious. So so yeah. So then so we then were sort of coming to Wars election day. We hadn’t yet interviewed Trump would interview all the kids. An election day happens,

and

then we get silence. There’s now no more interaction with the family at all. And I’m obviously very disappointed that we hadn’t yet interviewed president Trump. And then I’ll never forget any of this. I was driving down to see a family member on a Friday afternoon.

And you know when you sometimes get on your phone like AT and T call, even if you haven’t got that number saved on your phone, it still shows AT and T. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So I’m driving down and suddenly, like, the White House appears on my phone.

And I was like, what the hell? So I answer it, and it was basically one of his staffers inviting us to do an interview with president Trump the interview took place on the fifth of December. And

that’s sort

of how it went. It was always very quick. It was always we had to really move. And the people I had working for me at the time still do. Are just unbelievable on how they were able to manage all this.

The

thing is and it’s similar to me. So in the last chapter of my book, I interviewed is such a much lower example, but I think it’s a parallel my old friend Caroline Ren who is on the, you know I mentioned on the permit on the mall. Yeah. But I saw her. She’s in the deck.

She’s in it. Yeah. So I’d love for your two cents in her. But the context is, in the book, I don’t think I’m particularly kind to her, but I I’m just kind of a mirror, though, of what she wants to explain herself. You know, I’d like to let her explain herself and I view, like the way in which she explains herself is preposterous, and the arguments are not particularly defensible.

But after it came out, I think sheep looks at it and it’s like, you know, this is what I right? Like, we live in these two different worlds. Right? So people who, you know, are of the persuasion that Caroline is and and is is deep in Trump world. She looks at it and says, I don’t, you know, I don’t know.

I’d disagree with this line or that line, but it seems like basically is a reflection of my point of view. And I feel like that’s how this documentary I I watched it all last night and how is really remarkable and interesting and engaging bit it is. You really are giving them the rope and letting them hang themselves. Exactly. Throughout the entire document, Right?

I mean, it is they’re like, had they not tried to steal the election and done a coup. I very well might have been a documentary that comes out kind of you know, that they might have liked.

Absolutely. And and to be honest, I mean, I I don’t know why they wouldn’t even like it. Some of them still think that I mean, the president thinks that what happened in January six was an acceptable outcome. But yeah, I mean, there are a few reasons for this. I mean, one is is that yes, give them the rope and they can do it themselves.

I mean, you know, that scene with Don Junior where he says how state of journalism is so bad and he had to then go and actually write a book and I mean, it’s just absolutely new to Chris. Don

Junior’s ranting. He’s like, these guys don’t work, and and they shut me down from COVID, so I couldn’t go to work, or go to church. He does either of those things, so I had no choice but to write a book. You know,

during the pandemic, I couldn’t go to work, I couldn’t go to church, I couldn’t go to school, so I was sitting at home for four months. I wrote a book because I was bored. Not because I’m a journalist or a researcher. I was bored. I go, let me see what’s out here about Joe.

I was, wow, that’s kind of a big deal. You know, you have fifty year track record? Not one person in journalism picked up a pen or started opening a book, but that’s the state of journalism. That a guy like me has to step up and perhaps that’s why I’ve made a name for myself within politics because I’m just willing to be like, hey guys, like, I’m calling

bullshit. Oh my god. Alright,

buddy. Yeah. You know,

I mean, like, you weren’t pressing them. Right?

Yeah. They

they were looking they were looking and sounding ridiculous. But just because they were spending a lot of time defending the interfensible and complementing themselves.

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, again, you’re done talking about his, like, political genesis, I guess. Right? Is is when he went to check his Vaticia back then and and he so petrified the Communism could come to America and, you know, it’s ludicrous.

I spent most of time trying not to laugh. But I think that the main point though was really that I wasn’t there to try and change minds. Obviously, that’s ridiculous because

you can’t

change these people’s minds. And also to record like history, essentially. Right? I mean to record, this is what these people who were running the country, essentially, were thinking and doing at this very moment. And so what’s so unusual about all of this is that I became sort of the story more than the series in a sense because of the subpoena.

But I’m barely in the series. It’s not like a normal TV interview where you see the interviewer, it’s all about them and then rating it. So and and obviously, we use journalists as well to contextualize some of the absolute nonsense they talk about. But ultimately, it was never about me. It was about them.

And so I didn’t want to engage with them and try and change minds or argue with them that they’re wrong because these people aren’t rational. Right? I mean, you tell Donald Trump the sky is is not it’s not orange. It’s it’s It’s blue. It’ll just maintain the fact that it’s orange.

And then at that point, you’ve wasted all your time and you’ve gained nothing. So that was my thought process.

So I wanna go to the kids. And to me, it seems like maybe you brought a little bit of the British Menar critical view to this mindset of this family. I had to lay the treatment and it was a big focus on, like, the kids and and whether, you know, one of them might be an aerator of his political kind of machine and kind of a sense of them as family, you know, that’s, like, maybe a little hint of kind of how how the royal family is covered. And so I just I I wanna go through the kids a little bit one by one, but I’m curious, you’re just brought a sense of them. Having got the spend.

It sounds like a decent amount of time with Eric in Ivanka, maybe a little less with John Junior. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I I mean, in in brief, really, they care about one thing and one thing only. Which is Trump and the brand. Right? It’s the same thing really.

I mean, they just care about doing whatever they can to ensure that their father remains empower and that Trump is not associated with defeat. Right? That’s all they care about and that’s all they know. They can’t accept anything else. So and there’s obviously friction between the three of them in terms of who’s dad’s favorite and who’s the most most likely to take over.

But the consensus is we will do everything we can, come on me, to ensure that that Trump is is is associated with the winning and and that he and and, obviously, practically, that he remains in office. Yeah.

I thought that a striking part of it was you then are showing Trump, like these the the interviews that you did with the kids — Right. — I guess — Yep. — and getting him to on to them. Like, how much of that did he did he watch? I just it’s hard for me to imagine Donald Trump actually caring about watching the other kids on

video. Yeah. So it was fascinating. And I think those facial reactions that he has when I’m showing him on the iPad, his kids campaigning for him is fascinating. And the best he can really say is how they have their support and they’ve got their own base.

But, really, it comes from his base. So there’s a yeah. There’s a father talking about his kids who are doing, you know, work for him essentially. And he can’t give them, you know, any credit or have to qualify it with the fact that really, you know, any interest people have in them actually all comes from him. And the

one that stands out to me is I guess you showed him and Eric had been relaying that his mother, Ivana, had said that Donald was a terrible husband, but a good president or something to that effect, and he showed that clip to him.

Yeah. And

he did he seemed a little awkward in the moment. Trying to

kind of

contextualize that. I don’t know what were did he did he get up back on his heels about any of these any of the No. I

mean, I mean, I think, you know, in in that particular moment, he he was very taken aback and and quite awkward, and then he says, but it’s probably true. Was his response, right, i. E. That everyone would think he’s an amazing president. Right?

And I think with you know, he he’s a very, very unusual man, Donald Trump. I mean, in in every way, he’s a very simple person, but he’s also very unusual person. Yeah. He has this inability to understand why people don’t like him unless he doesn’t like them first. I mean, that that’s the the world that he lives in.

He he is incapable of understanding anything other than total and absolute adoration towards him because he is the greatest person in the world. Right? So when you when you’re dealing with something like that, whether it comes to his children or whether it comes to his friends or or or to anyone, he it’s all about him and it’s all about the things that he’s associated with or that he associates himself with or that he owns or, yeah, or has. So what was interesting with him or was kind of frustrating was that you can’t get deep with him. Right?

The best you can get is, I mean, you would think showing him video clips of his own kids would Thank you. You’re our

husband. Yeah. It’s

I mean, yeah, it’s just like there’s no real response except few contortions on this face. Right? I mean, that’s what the the most insightful parts of ever when you come with Donald Trump, the most insightful parts are those behind the scenes, you know, in in our series, it’s him moving the water glass around or or moving the chair around to make sure it’s centered in the frame. It’s those moments of jazz as he gets comical and hilarious and insane. But those are the moments where you actually get to see who he really

is. So to this question for who he really is, I think, obviously, the main thrust and what everybody wants to know from you. Not a you’re a mind reader. You just got to spend a little bit of time with him. Is this sense for, like, what he really believed amidst all of this thermal time.

He’s he’s doing the the other ridiculous thing about this water moving move the table, move the cup of water, if you they showed us the January sixth committee, like, all of this is happening in the context of, like, he’s attempting a coup. Right? Just just judge, like, his simple brain about what he’s thinking about at a given moment, but I wanna play the clip of him and Eric both talking about the election fraud and the thought.

It’s mathematically impossible to have lost the election. He didn’t get eighty million votes just so you understand. Okay? Nor did he come close? I

would do events across street from Biden.

And he

would have twenty people and you’d have Bon Jovi. And a guy like me who’s has your desire immune politics would have seven hundred fifty people or a thousand

people. I’d like to do that because Biden wasn’t listening to COVID. So Biden wasn’t having events, but Eric’s a guy like me. And I’m not exactly Bon Jovi over here. But to me, that actually sounded like dumb people who really think they’re, like, was stolen from them, actually.

And I don’t know. On some level, it doesn’t really matter whether they really think so or not. But I am curious in your take on that. Having spent time with them on camera and off camera. During this tumultuous period, you you know, we’re in December when those interviews are taking place.

We’re months away from January sixth. What is your sense for their mindset? I agree with you. It’s literally dumb people. I

mean, and and it’s so difficult to say because I wish it was there was a better way of articulating it. But they really are I mean, Eric, without a question, completely and totally believes everything is further says. I mean, in in every way shape before. So, I mean, and and the number of times he said, I will never accept ever, you know, in my dying days, I’ll never ever accept that my father didn’t win the twenty twenty election. He absolutely believes it.

And Trump believes it as well. I mean, he absolutely knew what he was doing. Where he was talking about how mailing ballots were were problematic. And and I think at that point, it was more just a part of the the Trump game. Right?

I mean, he’d been undermining the thanks to give a vote back in twenty sixteen. You know, there’s that famous clip. We asked the debate with Hillary Clinton where he says he’ll accept the twenty sixteen presidential election, and he pauses and says, if I win — Right.

— so

he’d been playing with that for a long time. But eventually, when push comes to shove and and he actually lost that there’s just no way that he could rationalize that in his head because, of course, I didn’t lose. Of course, they stole it from me. And he becomes somebody who who buys into his light, and he he absolutely believed it. And that was something that shot me because when I was at the White House, I was saying, to one of the crew that there was no way Trump really believes that this election was stolen than that.

Yeah. We sort of I almost expected him to admit in India. I mean, it’s like that was like what I was hoping. Oh, there’d be

like a showman’s wink offstage. I guess this is my other question. Like, yeah. It’s a when you have you were with obviously some staff of his, I talked to Lisa Farah, who’s, I think, quitting right around this time. Right?

Because she’s is saying the same thing. I’m surprised that that people actually are believing this bullshit. But I would have expected that too if I was in your shoes, you go in and and you’re like, they they all know that this is a joke. Right? And, like, that there’d be some sort of wink and nod or some sort of human acknowledgment that, you know, that this is a big scam and, you know, we’re just going along with to get along here until we’re out of here next month.

But that wasn’t the vibe you were picking up. No, Nigel. I mean, in terms of his staff, after we

finished that interview, there was this incredibly awkward silence, and I then saw how scared the few

people were that

were in the room with us of him. Which was really fascinating. It wasn’t like, you know, a deference to the president of the United States. It was shared terror. I mean, they were very very very scared of him.

And

that

was very unusual. I felt that was very unusual. But, you know, he absolutely totally believes. I mean, in terms of other people around, there were a couple of comments that there were a few camps. There were those that believed it.

And there were those

that didn’t

think it was true, but they really hoped Trump would laugh. And then

there

were those that thought it was a bad idea. That that they stayed for whatever reason. But and including some of the people that were the closest to him, I had conversations with that thought it was terrible idea and he shouldn’t fact just go around the country, talk about how great he was and how he saved everyone with the COVID vaccinations and, you know, be civil to president Biden. That’s what they were advocating. But on the whole, the people that I came across were tote in the same campus,

John. In this latter category that you mentioned about people that photos terrible idea and issue in bragging. There was some leaks indication through journalists that Ivanka, his daughter, the favorite, was one of those people. But your documentary seems to kind of indicate that that wasn’t quite as true to the extent that that I think they want the public to believe. And I have one this is not from your documentary, but it is from the January sixth Committee.

It’s the outtakes from the statement that Trump is giving. After January six where Ivanka is the voice in the background helping him as he’s making some edits to the statement. Let let’s play that clip and then let’s talk about your perception of Ivanka. Okay. I’ll I’ll

do this. I’m gonna do this. Let’s go. But this election is now over. Congress has certified the results don’t wanna say the elections over.

I just wanna say, Congress has certified the results without saying the elections over. Okay?

Not Congress, sir. Now Congress. Yeah. But Now Congress.

I didn’t say Congress. So let let me

see. Don’t go to the

paragraph this morning. I see. I

found that clip very interesting because it always in the New York Times, the story is that Ivanka is pushing back in in behind the scenes. But in this leaked footage, no, she wasn’t. She was happy to let him edit his statement to not acknowledge that the election was over when it had been long over for two months and capital had just been sacked because of his lies about it. So what is your sense? Maybe not as strong a pushback as she claimed in her public testimony.

Sure. And in fact,

there was the story where after the January sixth committee had shown a clip of her talking about how she had actually accepted Bilbar’s statement back in the beginning of December. When he had spoken to AP, saying there was no basis whatsoever to support any of Trump’s election claims. She said that she agreed with him. But in fact, about six or so days after that. She was interviewed by me at the White House where she doubles down in her father’s position.

And so this is again in December. This is

an election of an over for a month. I’m just trying to clarify the time line here. This was not, like, you know, with her on the campaign trail during that one week. Between, you know, before the official call. Right?

Like, we’re into December and she she’s telling you that that no. She thinks she’s with her dad on the

front. Absolutely. You know, he should he should, you know, continue the fight. It was essentially what she said. And in fact, it was quite funny because when that clip was played by January six Committee, Trump came out against Ivanka, which was fascinating.

He said that she’d already checked out and she wasn’t involved in anything to do with the election. She didn’t know what she was talking about. Well, in the interview that I did with her in December, she was definitely not checked out, and she absolutely knew exactly what was going on because she was quoting statistics. Actual statistics in terms of how her father had performed in the twenty twenty election. So she was definitely with it, but she also did maintain the same position as a father.

The the differences between the kids is is generally is is about articulation. Right? So Don Junior would be far more vociferous than Ivan thought it would be a bit softer perhaps. But if they ever depart from their father’s position, it’s very unusual. And it’s most probably to avoid, I don’t

know,

potentially be arrested if anything. I mean, like I was interested. I

forget which interview. I I I was to a couple interviews before this, and I was interested in something you said about how Ivanka and Don Junior are actually very similar — Mhmm. — which is not I don’t think they’re public perception. But were you just kind of referring to they’re both ambition and just kind of manifest itself differently? I think

that’s definitely one aspect that Ivanka does have a persona off camera, which is pretty interesting. And I haven’t actually discussed that to be honest, but she does have it. Okay.

Well, don’t tease us. Look him on. What is her persona? Well, look at her persona.

Let’s just say that there are quite similar attributes between the way Don Junior is on camera and the way Vonk is off camera. Okay. Okay. Come on. Give us a

little something. Give us a little. Give us a cookie. We’re forty minutes into this podcast. It’s only the real ones now.

Yeah. No. I think she really does have a

lot of toots of her father, and she will say how she thinks. What what I found so irritating and they’re not so strange as how they all do this thing, the Trump’s maybe Don Junior less so, but and Eric is a bit of a relevance in the grand scheme of things. But Ivanka and her father have this similarity that they put on this very weird Pessono when they go on camera. Like, they and they actually do the same thing. But, like, like, I mean, let you the exactly the same thing.

They both complain about how it’s hot in the room. And they wish the recognition was on. And then they do this weird contortion with their face and essentially try and change character to be this type of person they think people wanna see. And and Ivanka does I mean, she’s been doing this for so long that it’s essentially become who she is. But there are these moments that I noticed when the cameras are not rolling, where she is willing to to really, you know, tell me what she what she thinks about certain things and And and that and that did remind me of her of her father and, you know, she is someone that will express emotion every now and then.

But And to re answer your question in terms of Don Junior and Ivanka, their similarities, I mean, they absolutely are obsessed with the power and the the influence that you have when you’re when you’re in the White House. Right? I mean, he obviously he wasn’t in the White House you know, like the same way she was, but he certainly had a very significant presence there for sure.

I wanna talk about one other person that you interviewed, which is the vice president. I thought in in a weird way, I I think maybe it’s out of x because of expectations. I think your kind of expectation of of any sort of interview behind the scenes is that the Trump’s will look awful, and there’s kind of this expectation that by chance will look better by comparison. But in a lot of ways, I I felt like that was not really the case. You were in the slightest way humanizing of the Trump’s and Pence.

I just think that because of the fact that he showed courage on the sixth, people kind of gloss over his behavior between election day and the sixth, which was extremely cowardly. And and do you have an interview with him? I guess well, tell tell us when the interview was. Right? I thought I was striking in the documentary that you show him, I’d forgotten that he’s behind Trump on stage, on election.

Yes. When he gives the speech that says, frankly, we didn’t lose. I’d forgotten that Pence was there for that. And then he gives an interview with you, what, in December, I guess, where he’s he’s not showing any distance at all. I mean, he sounds

like a like

a a total loyal servant to Trump. So what what was the context of that conversation? Well, the the

context of that act That interview with the vice president wasn’t in December. It was six days after January sixth. It was on the twelfth of January. Oh, man. Okay.

Yeah. It was absolutely extraordinary that day. And he was the most famous man in in literally in the world because of all the twenty fifth amendment stuff that was Why did he agree to that? I honestly asked that every time I talk about this. Why did he wanna increase this?

I mean yeah. I think I honestly, I don’t know why. K. Sonia, give us the whole story. He he sits six days after the six.

And you’re in it looks like I I didn’t I couldn’t tell the exact room, but you’re in the White House. Yeah. We’re

in the vice presidential ceremony in the office. It’s actually an incredible room where every vice president for, I know, decades signed this draw when they leave office. And Mike Pence was actually showing us the his signature in this draw. I mean, you see Harry Truman’s signature. Obviously, his signature is the biggest one.

Like, you know, Harry Choo was always timing signature, and you’ve got Mike Penn’s massive, like, sharpie Penn. He’s been with Trump for too long. But, yeah, he comes and he sits down and then his assistant gets an email on the phone and and essentially it was an email showing the draft resolution that was about to be posted on later on that evening to to essentially get him to invoke the twenty fifth amendment. And obviously, he was able to do it, and he had to be prepared his letter, which also, we found out later, is sent during that interview. Where he writes to the speaker saying that he’s not going to be invoking the twenty fifth amendment.

But just that moment, capturing that moment essentially live, you know, in the room was was pretty extraordinary. And, yeah, I mean, when we finished the interview, he he was actually very he’s a very charming guy, I have to say. And he apologizes for being late. And then says, we had a bit going on today. I was just like, I mean, it’s so remarkable that this White House was it wasn’t just the Trump’s and the people around it, but it also included the vice president to to allow us in and to fill on these moments and to, you know, capture what they’re thinking and saying at these times.

I mean, this was six days after American citizens died on the steps of the capital, where he was almost essentially about to be assassinated the behest of his boss. The president of the United States. And he’s saying how he’s not as good of a golfer as Donald Trump is. I mean, it’s just

extraordinary. Yeah. He’s he’s,

like, joshing about

it. Yeah. And showing no distance, and I guess it says that he didn’t wanna talk about the sex. That day? No.

No.

No. I did not wanna talk about the sixth.

No. No.

The only person I wanted to talk about the sixth was president Donald Trump.

I mean It’s one that you understand he still has a job to do on the twelfth. So going back to office, making sure that there’s a transition of power. But if you’re gonna sit down with a documentarian for a Trump family documentary, and the Trump family had just sent a mob to kill you. You would think I don’t know. There would be some sort of acknowledgment of that.

But he was still in a pretty client mode there. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay.

I I have some rapid fire ones for you. Ready? Yeah. So you’re with Trump three times since and, you know, there’s always this we we know we all know for see behind the scenes of the Trump mood, you know, you always hear, oh, he has a dark mood, etcetera, and the Washington Post have have twelve sources on background. But It comes to the head with this Cassidy story, with the catch up, you know, he’s throwing it against the wall.

You know, three times with him, what is your sense for that? Is that story believable? The are these dark Trump mood stories over overshot? What was the vibe like for you? Sure.

I mean, it’s definitely

nothing in what Cassie said that is unbelievable. So I certainly see I I never saw any catch up on any walls or or or, you know, table cross being pulled. But, no, in the White House, he was when when he came in, he was furious, And for lack of the better word powerfully, he sort of he was furious and I was very scared. I mean, that was definitely the feeling I got after that interview I was like, the shit hit the fan. This is gonna be a bad next few weeks.

I mean, there was no question. He was gonna go full on. I mean, I knew the night before I had projected that, there was gonna be chaos. So That was very clearly by virtue of how he met him and seen him in that moment. He was gonna do everything he could to remain in power.

So that was in the White House. In Mar a Largo, he looked terrible. He had fallen a lot of weight. He was incredibly depressed. And they’re all behind the scenes secret.

The reason for all of that was because he was going through. A real withdrawal from not being able to use Twitter or any sense of media. Yeah. I promise. I mean, that’s literally why it’s closed.

It’s Aid said to me, he he was in the most terrible foul mood because he couldn’t

use social media app is remote. I do have to say a little relatable. Okay? I don’t know if I’ve ever felt that way about Donald Trump, but maybe a little available. I dropped my phone over the weekend, and it broke.

And so I’m now in right now, an hour thirty six. And my mood is okay. I haven’t put on any weight yet. But I could see the withdrawals starting to kick in. Yeah.

And then were you on the third meeting, Bed

Bedminster? In in Bedminster, he had he was actually quite Jovial and and content. But that was most probably because he had just come back from me from playing golf. So he was pretty chilled out because that’s really his passion. So he was he was certainly more relaxed and balanced than than the previous two for sure.

What just

in general around Mar a Lago, you know, in the months after January sixth, like, that has to be kind of a surreal vibe. You know, you got the cougars and the staff members and you know, like, the guys that own the local auto dealership and there’s classified documents laying around. I mean, that had to be a little bit of a trip. Absolutely. And you

know what was so interesting was I’ve actually not told anyone this. So obviously, Moerdahl is the worst place in the world, right, to ever store anything safe because it’s a know, it’s members club and people are playing golf, and you can obviously bring, you know, your guests in as well. Right? Remember? So and and the security is only around him.

It’s not So all over us. I mean, obviously, the entrances and things, but — Yeah. Sure. — but people are walking around all over the place. I was walking around all over the place.

So what Trump does in Mar a Lager, and why he loves it there. So much is that he just sort of walks around where people are having dinner just to get a round of applause. So he’ll just walk into, like, the dinner area. I mean, obviously, people having dinner different times. And he’s walking, there’ll be a chair, and and he’ll go and he’ll go out, and then he’ll go back in again, and then go out.

So he just loves

that aberration. And so then you can think, well, in a second, you know, he’s probably not really selling classified documents to Russians. He’s probably just showing them

off to people

as to how cool it is. Right? I mean, that’s the kind of guy he is, you know. They they said that they were looking in his bedroom drawers and things.

And he’s probably got his letters with Kim and John, you know, in

his bedside table.

And he goes around and shows off to people. That’s the kind he is. I mean, he literally walks into the room and I’m like, Hello, mister president? And he totally ignores me, and he just says, look at this floor. Isn’t this the most beautiful

flooring you’ve ever seen? I’m just like, what are you talking about?

I mean, It’s a beautiful way to do. Like and it’s just bizarre or, like, you know,

mister president last time I it’s like the small talk. Last time I we we met was at the White House a few months earlier. And he’s like, oh, yeah.

Very nice at the White House. Yeah. But this is a much nicer setting. I mean, it’s it’s like a sitcom. You know what I mean?

It’s it’s so hilarious.

You can brag about Mar a Lago by comparison to the White House. I know.

It’s just absolutely extraordinary. So he he he’s a very

weird, unusual, simple, relatively

old map. Yeah. The con but the for me, the classified documents They’re really only three potential explanations. One is he was trying a coup and shit was so wild that nobody knew where any documents were and they just threw shit in the box and and sent it down there. And he’s as being a stubborn bastard.

Right? That’s one. Two, the most nefarious is that you know, there’s some sort of backroom dealing happening with MBS or whatever that is your house the cards potential explanation. And three is he really just likes to show shit off to the club members because he loves the attention. And, like, it’s as simple as that.

He’s like a man baby who wants to show off his toys to these strangers. And that third category has always been my theory. And that seems to to jive with with yourself. Absolutely. Guy out down

there. Absolutely.

Yeah. He really is

a really straightforward simple guy. I mean, he is a mandate. I mean, all intents and purposes. I mean, that’s literally who he is. You know

the

story with the button on this on the desk and the oval office. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s the guy he is. Okay.

Three little quick pet issues of mine. I’m not gonna let you off here without without without asking you about any of them. The first one is During the documentary Trump at one point says he feels that the room is very orningy.

Yeah. What is

he talk what is he talking about? He thinks he looks too orangey or

Correct. He’s looking in

the image of himself on the camera? Exactly.

So one of the things he asked is to see what he looks like for the interview starts. There’s a screen sort of facing him. And he says, dad, he looks at the screen of him. He’s looking at himself, and he says, it looks too orangey. I don’t know why that is.

I just

thought he was going for orangey.

I thought that was his whole makeup routine. Exactly. Right? But, like, when he said that, I was just like, We could just leave now. We don’t need to jump to any of this shit, you know?

Like, that’s it. That’s What do you think he thinks he’s going

for? Like, Braun or I I I

honestly I haven’t got you. Well, I know he does do it himself. He he spends about two hours in the morning. Yeah. Two hours.

So

that’s that’s useful personal time. During the campaign period the after, were you ever around when there was business discussions? I I do always feel like this is under covered. It’s like there is this question of you know, whether he had a wall between himself and his businesses. I mean, we’re like, the kids were obviously campaigning very hard in the last ninety days when you were with them, but there had to be also running his business too.

Right? Yeah. So, I mean, Eric was in charge of the of

the company. But, no, I mean, there was there was no I mean, I did not see any sense of any war whatsoever. I mean, this whole the whole thing was incredibly

I mean,

just it was a freefall, a total freefall run by amateurs and really and sick events that’s all the way through. I mean, that’s what I saw. And then and Trump. I mean, this is actually not in the documentary, but he does talk about how unfair it was that he had to, you know, he he was very upset that if people stayed at his hotel and paid money that he would be told off about it. And now he was also very upset about how much money it cost him to be the president of the United States.

Now to give up lots of lots of deals. Yeah. I’m always very skeptical if

that’s the case, but we’ll we’ll let that go, okay, you you said one thing on Reddit. I can’t let it I can’t let it off. Okay. I can’t let you off the hook. You you did

compliment my book. I

I wasn’t gonna mention that. That felt very lumpy to bring that up and thank you. Bad you. I was gonna mention that you answered a question that you said you heard some racism off camera. So I feel like I would be a bad journalist if I didn’t follow-up with that.

Is that really was that really true? Or am I misunderstanding the the AMM?

No. It’s is one hundred percent true. I don’t wanna go into too much detail for various reasons. But yeah, I mean, he is what people expect. From Trump

himself. No. We’re not talking about the kids. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I and I also experienced it. I mean, he

didn’t say the n word. You would say that if you in the end word. Oh, yeah. Casual, like, racism, you mean? Yeah.

But it was a racism that, I

would say, this is the most I’ll go into. That was directed somewhat personally. So there you go. So I actually experienced that. But, yeah, he he at best, he doesn’t have a clue what you’re saying most of the time.

So, you know, I’m not saying that therefore yeah. Right. Sure. That that that I’m not trying to condone it. I’m just saying that, yes, the answer is I did see and hear it.

And also experienced as

well. Anybody heard have you heard from anybody? Any of the Trump family members? No. I can’t believe that.

I can’t

say that. Yeah. Got it. Okay. My old

friend Caroline, have you heard from her? Are you listening right now? You can say hi to yours? Hi, Caroline. I don’t know if she remembers me, but all I

can say is that there is let’s just say that not everything that is that that is captured on the day that we film how is in the documentary. There you go. Mean, you have a lot of good teachers, Alexander.

Well, look, this will mean that you have to come back for a Thursday night bulwark livestream, which we do after a few drinks. If you’re a bulwark plus member, you can and you haven’t joined for bringing Thursday night bulwark back next week. We’ve done a little August vacation. And so, you know, we’ll get a couple of pops in yet and see if I can’t do a better job as a probing host getting some more of this some more more of this gossip out of you. So any any anything else?

Any final plugs? For unprecedented Discovery Plus, highly recommend it. No.

I I mean, yeah, you’ve done an amazing job, Jim. And this has been really fun. I actually

say

this is probably the most enjoyable Like, I can’t say most, but one of the most enjoyable podcast I’ve done. That’s really great. Okay. Well, I’m doing my best. Well,

thank you very much, Alexander. It has been my honor. I was so happy to see you in D. C. And hopefully we can get together soon.

Keep an eye on us and the bulwark will be monitoring your increasingly chippy Twitter feed, which I’ve noticed. Now that you’re off the clock on the movie. And for the Bulwark listeners, I will be back in the host chair tomorrow with another very fun guest. And we’ll do it all over again. Peace.

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