The Bulwark: Live from New York

Welcome to the Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. It is Friday, so that means I’m going to be joined by Tim Miller. But here’s the thing, we actually spoke last night. At our special live show in New York City, and it was a fantastic show long in the making, and it was really great getting to meet so many bulwark fans.

We have other live shows planned around the country. And if you’d like to attend, join the Bulwark, join bulwark plus find out when we’re coming to a city near you. And with that, Let’s go to last night’s live show where I put my buddy Tim to the test. It’s Thursday, and we are in New York city to Miller.

In New York City, baby. Yeah.

No. I love it. I’m glad you dressed for the occasion. You got the Denver hat.

Got my nuggets hat on. The game’s after straight out to this, Joe nuggets. Games after this, I’m gonna

do some selfies. And, you

know, don’t get mad at me if I’m looking at my phone during selfies.

See, I

am monitoring the nuggets game.

I have been asked whether something we do on the podcast occasionally is just shtick or whether it is real.

Okay.

Okay. So I don’t like Donald Trump. I wanted to play this off, this New York audience, please do not shout out your answers until I ask you, Oh, no. Tim Miller, one of the great show tunes of all time. Number one.

I’m such a bad gay.

White side, bites weekend and clinking. Eight no finer rig. I’m a thinking. You can keep your Alright. Timular name name that musical.

I was worried you were gonna do this, like, Googled famous musicals on the subway. It wasn’t helpful. Is this Mary Poppins?

Alright. Okay. New York. Everyone in

New York

City knows what else.

What did they say?

Oklahoma. Oklahoma. Oklahoma. Okay. Better chance you might get this one, but there’s a bonus question too.

Play number two.

I could have done.

This sounds familiar.

Big. Okay. Not Tim Miller?

Oh. New York, please. Yeah. Okay.

Bonus points — What

was it?

— who was that? Oh, I see k.

What was that from?

This is my fair lady, but that is the Broadway version, and that is sung by Julie Andrews. This is this is this is a hint for you, Sam. Number three.

Do, a deer, a female deer.

You really like this? This is horrible.

Me You hear

the name, Michael. Myself. You know this song. You sang this as a child.

Oh, it’s a child. Yeah. Man? I have no I I have no fucking idea. New York City.

The Sound of Music Julien

I really Once again. That that

So the Noah Deer song from Sound of Music.

I I really I didn’t that’s

It is in there.

That’s that’s a good fact.

Way to hear What do you do with the problem of Maria?

If if it wasn’t for the nuggets, I’d be at Marie’s crisis later. And I would know the songs.

Okay. I do have an easy one coming. I have a I have a lay up for you, but let’s go with number four. Okay. How many of these are there?

But I know

He’s gonna get his That not

also the sound of music.

New York? The music man.

Never heard of that.

This is the music man. Alright. I am pretty sure I’ve actually been a great deal of money with my producer, Katie Cooper, that you will get this one. Okay. Alright.

So okay. So let’s play Beefance of the opera.

This is this is this is the Beance of the opera.

The layup for mister Milope. Oh, no.

No. No. Kids.

She’s Donald Trump’s favorite song. He’s playing this in Mar a lago right now. There’s ketchup all over the wall, but this is funny. I know there are gonna be five of these. I only came

I only Google three musicals. Alright.

New York? Cats. Oh. Alright. I’m sorry.

We got high and watched Cats. Alright. I heard we had one more, actually.

No. Is there one more?

I heard I heard that.

I think Tim had one.

I heard that. I heard that I I heard there was maybe one more, six. In Camps, New York City Camps. New York City Cumps. They ain’t too smart.

You didn’t say that soon.

I apologize if there’s anybody who backs the blue in the room for that choice.

Sorry. You got me there.

You don’t know it? No. The No. The number one New York Indie band right there. That was them for the two thousands.

Anyone have it? I am impressed. This only three people have it. The strokes.

I think this is my audience, you know. I think it’s your view of that.

Well, alright.

So since it is a New York audience, Rudy. Can you explain what happened to this? Man, I have a theory. I just wanted to bounce this off. God bless you.

America’s I mean, it it is all the planets aligning of the narcissism, the arrogance, the extremism, but I am convinced that medical science is gonna discover that there is such a thing as viagra bourbon poisoning. That does something to your brain. Can you explain this story to me?

Rudy’s poor daughter, you know, and have to read that, you know, have to hear about your dad. I I think it’s going

hard for this.

I don’t think that it’s I mean, there could be alcoholism and everything. And I’m interested in our New York expert, Molly Jong’s fast

— Yeah. —

psychological takes on Rudy in the next hour. But honestly, it’s so strange to think this because this grievance Like, I feel like he feels like it should be Rudy Giuliani train station instead of Moynihan train station. And then he feels like everyone should win back It could have been. Right?

There could have been a school. Every airport in America would be named Rudy I mean, but look now.

But he just wanted the buzz so badly. And I think the big give away on this, is the Bill Clinton element of the whole thing? Like the facts that he asked this young woman to give him a blowy While he was on a work call, so that he could feel like Bill Clinton.

Well, and when they were in bed and having sex, he insisted that she call him mister president. So I I mean, I I think

That’s better that’s better than Rudy slut. Yeah.

It’s a

little it’s a little less gross for me than Rees was.

I don’t know where this lawsuit is going to go, but I am really intrigued, and I talked about this on our Trump trials podcast with Ben Whitis from Law Firm, which is our Thursday podcast.

Yeah. Just really quick, by the way, no king shaming. Nothing wrong with my emperor.

No. No. No.

You know, whatever wanna call your husband or wife in bed tonight after a few drinks with the Bulwark, you guys do that. That’s fine.

Let’s just say that if you’re taking more than ten a day, you might wanna talk to somebody because You might. And if you mix it with alcohol — Yeah. You become Rudy Giuliani.

I think it’s Rudy

Giuliani. Yeah. Just the Actually. But I do think it’s interesting to know where this case goes in terms of the selling of the pardons because leaving a part of the salacious stuff, which I could spend all night on. The fact that that he’s that he’s talking about, selling pardons, which you can’t do unless you have the person who gives out the pardons being involved.

So I do wonder whether there’s gonna be an investigation of fallout from that.

Well, the time was was on this, actually. There was a time story in late twenty twenty one that had a different source saying that Rudy was going around town saying that he could get pardons for two million dollars. So this lawsuit, which a lot of the anecdotes in there check out. I mean, Rudy, it’s this is the first person to say Rudy’s been drinking at ten AM. So the question I think comes down to whether, like, was Rudy really selling pardons for two million dollars, or is he just, like, talking a big game just like he wanted to have the gal call mister president?

Like, he wanted to feel important. And then I said that that depends. Right?

I mean, that’s defense is insanity, and you might actually be able to pull that off. Okay. So breaking news today about the presidential campaign, Disney apparently was not bluffing. And they basically they they basically sent a postcard to Ron DeSantis, you know, blinker you know, just like, I can’t see these words here on on the

To say.

Guys, you know, and find out. And they’ve canceled now a multi billion dollar office project in Orlando, the week that Ron DeSantis was hoping to roll out his presidential campaign, I mean, I’m working on my headline for morning shots tomorrow, and I’m thinking of Disney’s dagger right now. What do

you think? Thought you’re going with daddy there. Wow. This is her daddy. The big winner of all this is the people who work for Disney parks who no longer have to move to Orlando.

Yeah. We could just stay in LA. So Congratulations. To them, and and I accept leaks from any Disney employees that are out there as well. Ron DeSantis, like, I never thought that I’d end up being such a Bob Eiger stand, you know.

I’m not really into just getting all the the hagiography of the corporate Titans, you know, it’s not really my style. But Bob Viger has really dominated him on this. And it just what a horrific mistake And I think that when you look at I got into a little Twitter dispute with a national review writer today about like Ron DeSantis poll numbers are going down, right? And at his point was you could attribute it to anything, like his whole numbers were going down twenty points and he’s like I think it’s because of brag but it could be anything. The Disney thing to me really stands at as being a contributing factor, not the factor, because it’s like the voters want the alpha.

Right? The voters want somebody you can fight, and he has been just bitched out so hard by them on this. Right. And it’s been so blatant. Like he thought that he was gonna have an easy foil here.

It’s a mouse.

Yeah. He thought he’s gonna have an easy foil here, just a little mouse. And and I think that it’s really harmed his brand broadly.

So have we talked about my lizard theory about the the the a little bit I

read about it.

That Ron DeSantis figures, okay, I need to be the Republican nominee, I have to get the Magavote I have to become a lizard. I have to look like a lizard and act like a lizard. So he shows up with his suit and his yellow degree and goes, hello, fellow lizards. And he acts as if he tries to figure out what would they do. And so he takes the most extreme blunt cruest possible position on every issue with no subtlety whatsoever.

And he just doesn’t have to lizard thing down yet. Just kinda like when Mitt Romney said I am severely conservative, like you scream inauthenticity. And frankly, believe it or not, even with the derangement of the Republican Party in the Republican electorate. There are people that remember, wait, won’t we the people who didn’t like the idea of government, bullying, and beating up on a private company? I mean, it sounds a little fasciacy.

It it it does. And it’s also dizzy. Like, you forget, this thing is just trying so hard to appeal to the supercons, the super activists, the people that just mainline Matt Walsh and and Ben Shapiro. And like you forget that Trump appealed to a lot of people that liked his anti elite sensibility, liked his culturally conservative sensibility, but don’t follow every little scandal. Like, they’re still drinking bud light.

Right? You know? I mean, Budlight sales might have gone down, but they haven’t gone down that one. Right? There are people out there that are still drinking bud light.

This isn’t the biggest deal in the world. And if you jump on every one of these things, you start to come off as weird. This happened to Ted Cruz. Again, who started weird. Yeah.

Well He he I

mean, he didn’t have far to go.

Right. Right. No. They both are really weird, but they started to show Hey.

Who is shocked to find out that Ted Cruz is the biggest in the world. Yeah.

I mean, like But but but this kind of person, like you have your mind’s eye like the bar stool sports person or or the senior version of that that like listens to talk radio. Right? And they’re like, I don’t like these elites. But I don’t go to a church two times a week, and I don’t I think it’s very I still show I still watch Disney movies with my grandkids, and I still drink Bud Light. Like, I’m not obsessed with all this shit.

Like, you weirdos. And DeSantis is veering into this weird o category. And I mentioned this yesterday on the next level, but it’s worth doing again is that I saw this Instagram post from I followed a gaze against groomers. I punished myself for you guys. Okay?

And a couple of them are handsome, but that’s just a that’s just a side benefit. Okay? And I followed them and one of them was posting yesterday and they were really upset. And they’re like, I think that it’s very strange. Did you see the story about the strange world teacher?

The teacher showed strange world, and now she’s under investigation. This is a serious issue actually. It’s not funny. It’s fucking crazy. It’s like this teacher showed a movie that was relevant to the subject matter of fifth graders.

There’s no sex in it. And and the teacher’s now under investigation. And the gazing and Scrummer guy is like, guys, I think we might have gone a little overboard on this. You know, I think that we I think that

I think

that we might be and if that guy who I met at the TP USA fest of all is, like, you’re getting a little weird. Well, that that’s a bad sign for when you get to the normal Orlando kind of crowd, and I think that he’s hurting him Yeah.

I’m thinking of the millions of parents whose kids watched Disney or who worked with Disney. How they react to all of this? How many of them are thinking well, actually, there probably are a lot thinking know, please save me from having to watch frozen for a thousandth time. I mean, does this resonate with anybody here? Okay.

This Have you been to Disney World? I’m telling you, if anybody’s had to take their kids or grandkids to Disney World, there’s a lot of Macus there. Okay? And it’s not it’s not in a feat Upper west side

—

Full places. — crowds. Okay. On space mountain. I promise.

Well, I’m glad there’s no elitism here, you know. I’m glad I’m glad we’re defending democracy this way. Real America. Ninety You know what we should we should have played. It’s a small world after all.

Would’ve gotten that one.

He would not know that. But it would haunt his memories in his dreams forever.

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I I think the first thing is to be aware of what phishing attempts look like. So check that email address, but now it’s like coming to your text. Do you guys text now?

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Okay. I’m I’m sorry to segue to a completely not funny subject, because speaking of the the lizardty demagogory of of of Ron DeSantis since we are here in New York. It’s particularly relevant. The enthusiastic way that he has felt the need to come to the defense to raise money for the defense fund for the vigilante who choked a man to death in a New York subway. Now I think there’s a lot of ways of discussing this, but I was really struck by the fact that he scribes this man who and you may think that he’s a hero or that he was, you know, stepping up.

But to describe him as a good samaritan, seems to suggest that

Super getting the you missed this point. It’s terrible. He doesn’t

really understand the story of the good news.

Just a good cameraman.

And he

goes Show somebody out. It’s been a while since I’ve been in Catholic school. I forget.

Okay. I mean, even a New York audience is gonna know that in that story, the Good Samaritan did not stop and then choke somebody to death. Okay?

The Catholic want we weren’t big on bible reading

in school and the catholicism, but we have But

just so story.

Let’s let’s talk about this because and I wrote about this this morning whose brutality is the point. There is this new fetish for extrajudicial killings. They’re vying with one another. How can we have more executions? But also, I’m from Wisconsin.

Kyle Ray House, has become, yeah, you’re gay, really.

Because I have

I I just never comes back. Sarah has a focus group? I don’t know. We keep these things to ourselves. We don’t actually say these things.

But, yeah, I’m from Wisconsin. Yeah. And cow written house kills two people in in Kenosha, in Mexico, Wisconsin. Yeah. Kyle Rittenhouse kills two people and has become a manga icon.

You have a man who shot and killed a Black Lives Matter of protestor in Texas. The governor of Texas is now saying that he is going to pardon him. And, of course, now we have every Republican candidate for president, the entire right wing media ecosystem, basically saying, this was a good thing that this man was choked to death in the subway. Yeah. Tim Miller.

Well, there’s a lot of places to go there. And for starters, part of this is just this we’re in this tribal, you know, where you project the worst onto the other, like, folks aren’t willing to come to New York, and I’ve been on the subway all day, in and out today. And I and I know that it’s true. I know the big cities everywhere. I just left Oakland, San Francisco, New Orleans has its problems like crime is an issue places.

Like this notion that that the subway is so unsafe and like it’s so threatening everywhere. Like this needs to happen because the police are then these Democratic blue cities are falling down on their job. It’s just all based on this fantasy. Right? Like like, every place has their issues.

I am very, you know, supportive of adventure. Crime is a fantasy? Well, it’s certainly a fantasy that the subway in New York is so dangerous that you need vigilantes to choke people out. I mean like if you look on the if you look at the numbers, New York City is safer than Florida. Mhmm.

Like on on a per on a percent.

Now, Could

it be safer yet? Sure. Yeah. Could it be safer yet? Sure.

Was it safer before the pandemic than it is now? Yes. Is it safer now than it was during the nineteen eighties? Yeah.

You know

what I mean? It’s all relative. Right? But so some of this stuff is a, hey, not a fantasy, but a hallucination of you want it to be what it is in your imagination rather than what it is in reality. I I felt completely safe as a gay man and pearls on the New York subway today.

Nobody threatened me. Rittenhouse element is that is another thing that’s worth getting into though, right? Which is, you know, we are now valorizing these people. Yeah. Right?

And it’d be one thing if if the guy, you know, you can imagine a hypothetical situation. We don’t know all the details. Right? Where Jordaneely was fucked up and maybe getting in front of a woman’s face and the guy comes over and, like, colds him and it’s like, hey, like, we’re gonna get off the next you know what I mean? You could imagine a situation that’d be worth valorizing.

Right? That wasn’t this. Like, he killed an unarmed person.

This is the point, disorderly conduct. You don’t need to tolerate it, but It’s

not a death penalty of course.

He’s not

a death penalty. Right? You do not administer the death penalty for disorderly conduct. Right. That seems to be a pretty clear line.

Yeah. So

The other thing here which just shows and obviously, oh, there’s hypocrisy in the building with Republicans. Okay. You get it. But I I think you get of the political vulnerability side of this thing when when a normal people look at Kyle Rittenhouse and you’re like, that is bad. It is not good to have a high school kid driving into a city with weapons.

Right? Like it’s not good to attack someone on the subway and choke them to death. And when you’re like, oh, I’m valorizing them, I I think that that separates you away from mainstream opinion. And this was the core complaint of Kamala Harris. Right?

After what was happening, you know, in Kenosha. When Kamala Harris was paying bail for some of the people that were, you know, criminalized. Wisconsin, that wasn’t that was actually a not a smart political move from Kamala Harris. Right? Like that was a mistake.

Like we cannot be celebrating people that are creating this kind of disorder and that was a uniform opinion among the Republic occasions. But now it’s like a white person does it on the subway, a white person does it on the streets, and it’s like, okay, we can valorize them. It’s not hard to see between the lines.

Yeah. This requires a longer discussion. Including the failure of the mental health system to deal with mister Deely. I mean, that he was There’s

republicans are big on funding mentioned.

Health systems. By the way, this is actually an interesting issue because that’s become the go to thing — Yeah. — about guns. Right? Is that every time there’s a mass shooting, it’s in the mental health thing.

And fine. Let’s do that. But it’s one governor after another that has slashed funding for mental health, and and they don’t get called on it. I mean, it is it is bizarre. Speaking of other strange things that are happening, and we’re gonna get to Donald Trump in just a moment.

But who? Well, And I and I think, you know, as because we do talk about it so much, every once in a while, they’ll they’ll be you know, somebody will ask a question that implies that we’ll when and if he ever leaves the scene, how long does it take for things to go back to normal, and we have some bad news for you on that because the dysfunction of the Republican Party was a preexisting condition that he exacerbated and it will stay afterwards. But there’s something also in the culture of you guys. And this goes to what we’re talking about, the vigilantism, that if you convince enough people that this kind of behavior is acceptable and is valorized, but also that the world is a really, really scary place. Then you have things like young black teenager goes to the wrong house, rings the doorbell.

Man with a gun shoots and kills him because there are scary people out there. And I am simply defending my castle. And you can see the uptick in the distrust and what a toxic stew of so many guns and then convincing people. And I come from a state, as I mentioned. Minnesota?

A lot of people have guns, but but used to but used to really emphasize. I mean, this is the thing I think people need to understand is that, you know, what percentage of gun owners actually believe in gun safety and, you know, being responsible. But what’s happening now is that they’re kind of being shoved aside by the let’s have constitutional carry. Do you know what constitutional carry is that in the state of Florida, you can carry a concealed weapon. Not only without a permit, but without any background check and without any training about how to use the thing.

And honestly, it feels like five minutes ago. If you had a roomful of gun owners and said, do you think this is a good idea? They would have said that it’s nuts completely insane and yet here we are.

A hobby horse. I’m glad you brought this up. I didn’t know this was on our list today. Did you have you anybody see the j j Redic rant about John Marant recently? I’m gonna do a little Yeah.

I’m gonna do a little basketball crossover. But it’s a cross cultural issue, right? So John Marances basketball player for the Memphis Grisley’s who’s gonna be suspended because he was flashing a gun on Instagram Bulwark And JJ Redox on ESPN going, I’m upset that John is gonna be punished for this when there’s no equivalent punishment that happens when, you know, guys are king AR fifteen’s around. And like, you know, you have the governor of Texas. You know, we’re doing constitutional carry in Florida.

Tennessee where John is in Memphis, like the governor is supporting all this pro gun stuff and they’re doing the Christmas cards with the guns that you’ve written about. Yeah. My issue with his rant was that, like, everyone needs to stop excusing the people on their own sides on this. Yeah. Like this has gotten completely out of control.

It’s out of control. Obviously in conservative environments, but it’s out of control, certainly in city environments among, you know, younger people of color in particular. It’s like it’s cool to have a gun It’s not cool to have a handgun. It’s not cool to have an AR fifteen. It’s not cool to have a Christmas card with guns in it.

It’s not it fucking sucks. Like, it doesn’t make you a bigger man to have a fucking hand penis. Okay? It just doesn’t. It doesn’t.

And not enough people are out there saying that. Right, like across the board. And like it is it’s what we really need to address because as I’ve written about in many situations it’s like, when you’re in a society

—

Yeah. — where everyone has decided that I should carry. Right? And when there’s a lot of inter societal tension, then there’s no laws that are gonna fix this. Right?

I mean Jared Paula and I and Colorado’s doing a great job. Like, they’ve done a lot of, like, really meaningful reforms. But it’s it’s like, as long as everybody’s carrying around these guns, you know, like you can only do so much, Right? Like, there’s a cultural rot here that needs to be addressed, and I feel like that there is a empty set of people that are really willing to call out across the board, like it’s time to reassess this. Obviously, there’s nobody on the right that’s doing it.

And I think there’s a tremendous opportunity for that. I mean, See, you know As you know, if you ever listen to the podcast, I hate talking about these because I’m so frustrated. I I mean, honestly, this whole question of the mass shooting after Newtown just broke me. I mean, just listening to this doom loop of, you know, stupid discussion. And I do keep waiting for the thought you know what the problem of being a thought leader is?

You have to think, and then you have to lead. And I know there’s a

lot there. Are you a thought leader?

Are you

a thought leader?

I I strive to be one. Got it. At least, I play one on a podcast.

Okay. Got it.

And so I’m waiting for the eighty percent of gun owning normies to be the ones to say, It is complete bullshit that you are, you know, the day after a school shooting that you have an AR fifteen lapel pen.

Yeah. Fuck you. Okay. Yeah.

So alright. Speaking of of of of the depths of of crazy out there, because it’s very easy. You know, to talk about Marjorie Taylor Green. By the way, so a political party that thinks of Marjorie Taylor Green as a leader is blame,

didn’t know it. I mean, doing pretty well. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately.

No. I mean, it it it’s just so obvious. I mean, is out of its freaking mind. It’s it’s crazy. I mean, it’s it’s an indication when you say, well, what’s happened to the Republican party?

Look, Marjorie Taylor Green who should not, you know, have any entree to civilization at all is in this position, but which brings me, Tim, to Elon Musk.

Oh, my pal. I’m so happy about this one.

I mean, have you been following what the world’s richest man has been doing? Because sometimes people open their mouths and they expose things.

Did you guys watch the CNBC interview with Elon Musk? That poor guy that had to do the interview. I don’t know. I’m not a CNBC watcher. My stock portfolio is You

you do.

Not that great. I should be watching it more. Unfortunately, I’m spending the time listening to Steve Bannon podcast so I can keep you guys posted on what’s happening out there. Man. So I’m not doing that in my my finances are suffering.

So I don’t know who the reporter was. David Faber. Thank you. Thank you. And David had asked him about Elon about how, you know, he was attacking Belling Cat.

Which is — Yeah.

—

you know, a investigative journalism outfit and and and he said they do Saya. And and, essentially, Bellincat reported that the the killer in in the Texas. The latest killer

— Yeah. — as of Thursday nights — Yeah. — because we don’t know whether there’ll be another one. Okay. I’m by

the time this podcast airs tomorrow. Yeah. The only cat reported this guy was, you know, essentially a white nationalist. He’s Hispanic, but — He’s

a national scene. —

at white yeah. He’d white Neisha’s ideation. Yet, he wants to get ten too.

It’s swastika.

Yeah. And and Musk is saying that this is a sciop, that this isn’t true, that like the that his posts were on the Russian site. And and the CNBC reporter was so ill equipped

— Yeah. —

to respond to

him — Right. —

that he wasn’t able to be like, the guy had a fucking Nazi tattoo, like, are we gonna split hair? Siri, love. Like, like, you know

Which we just don’t know.

Yeah. Don’t I can get you a toe, contain on it.

But Grain, what I mean, I was listening to a clip today where he was explaining being a billionaire how immoral it was that some people work from home. Among — Yeah. — many of his other don’t even ask.

The thing the thing thing for yeah.

The thing for me that gets it. And today, he was doing this thing where he tweeted in response to like, something got deleted from the way back machine, the Internet archive. Right? And he tweets all. He’s like, what’s because Taylor Loren’s, who’s this liberal reporter, like, Taylor Loren’s uncle runs the way back machine, which is, like, not true.

And, like, the founder of the way back machine replied, and he’s, I am the founder of the way back machine. And I’m not related to Taylor Wrends. And he doesn’t correct himself. So it’s like, this guy isn’t a white Jonathan Last. Paul Pelosi got attacked because he had a gay lover, you know, as reported by the site that said Hillary Clinton has a body double and is an alien.

And he’s out they’re sending all the stuff while at the same time trying to argue that I want Twitter to be the place where people get real news. Right? The the journalists are the problem, and winter is the place you get real news. But it’s like, dude, you are the owner of the site, and you keep doing all these just asking questions like, tweets about total lies. And it’d be akin to a g souls burger, like, added a column on Friday to the front page of New York Times.

He’s like, Just asking questions, did Bush do nineeleven? Like — Yeah.

—

everyone would be like, this is insane. Like, this is insane. And he’s out there doing this on what is supposed to be an information platform. And yet, there is no accountability from, like, the Elon cult world, like, from the Barry Weinstein and all the people. There’s nobody that’s like, this guy is spreading fucking bullshit left and right.

So But what about the investing community? I mean, if I if I have a lot of Tesla stock and everything, I’m I have to be really nervous about this.

Yeah. George George has pulled out. You know, of an investor store of us. Yeah. Right.

But then that

that yeah. You know, I mean, come on. Well, how

are you going with that?

Yeah. I’m

You you you go. What do

you think they’re going with it? That’s what

I’m saying. Yeah. But it was three days after that that he’s tweeting that that George Rose is an evil person. I don’t have the tweet in front of me. But, yeah, I let’s just sick.

And and he is engaging with, you know, the worst, like contrarian misinformation, far right, mega people, you know, on on on on the site — Okay.

—

validating that.

Let’s just stress this though. It’s not just your normal conspiracy crazies. If there’s a continuum Elon Musk is way over here. The fact that he is trying to provide disinformation about a neo Nazi. I mean, there’s some brain worms here.

Do you have any insight

into that?

So can’t blame that on the viagra whiskey poisoning.

No. I think he’s been seriously red pilled. And this is the concerning — That has

no impact on our culture. —

it does.

Yeah. This is

a concerning thing because tying this right to Ron DeSantis conversation. Right? Well, it’s like there are a lot of people out there who are casuals. You know, they’re not coming on a Thursday night to go to a nerdy podcast event at at the Simfun space. We appreciate you.

We’re not casuals.

But there

are a lot of casuals out there. Okay? And they look at Ron DeSantis stuff and they’re like, you’re kinda weird. But they like Elon Musk. Right?

Like, I mean, Walter Isaac sent who I respect is doing a bio on him. It’ll be interesting to see how that turns out, but it’s like, he did the SpaceX thing. He did the test I like him for that reason. He’s he’s a troll. He’s funny.

I’m not into politics. And so this is why this is so dangerous. Right? Like, this is a very powerful, very influential person that sending those casuals down this dark, like white Jonathan Last adjacent, maybe not adjacent,

Will Saletan this has been the the scariest thing to watch. It’s the normalization in the mainstreaming of things that have always been out there, but we’re on the dark ages and really, really fringe. And the role that people with the microphones played and all of that. I mean, we can focus on the actual 4chan people. But when it is the Elon Musk or even worse, at least historically, talk to Carlson every single night who would come on the air, and would ask questions about the great replacement theory —

Right.

— five minutes before this. The only people who talked about the great replacement theory were neo Nazis. And suddenly, it’s being beamed to millions of people. Now I would love to be able to tell you that that’s why Rupert Murdoch ended up firing him. But, you know, I would love to say that it was the disinformation, the lying about the vaccines, lying about the election, the fact that he is Vladimir Putin’s bitch, or or the overt racism, but the reality is probably something else.

So

They go back when they called him a cunt. But It’s

at some point though, doesn’t Elon Musk need to, like, worry about something like a Dominion lawsuit, not against Twitter but against himself. If he is sitting there, saying these things, wait, we do have a little bit of evidence that maybe defaming people lying about them on the air might not work out well for you.

Well, two thoughts on this. One, I do think he’s gonna lose, I don’t know, probably thirty or forty billion dollars. He made one of the worst financial trays. Yeah. He he made one of the worst financial decisions ever on Twitter.

No. But he’s also he was the richest man in the world. I think he’s third richest now or something. So he he can afford to lose thirty billion. I I wish, you know, I wish that I was in that situation.

I’m not. So and and he basically admitted on CNBC. Right? He said, yeah. I’m gonna say what fuck I want if we lose money or whatever.

And and I do think that it’s gonna it’s gonna harm Tesla. I I don’t really care that much about Elon financial situation now, like the thing that I do care about to go back to your earlier point is, you know, I wrote in the in the book. I did a book. I don’t know if you guys knew that.

About — New York Times

is selling. Alyssa Farah’s dad who who who founded World Net Daily. Right? So Joe Farah. And World Net Daily has been this thing’s been around for a while.

Right? That’s just what you you described as the fever swamps. You know? Like, people down the basement. That was rolled net daily.

They were the, you know, they were the all the news that’s meant to print of the fever swamps. Before this. Right? And and and there was a problem and people that went and sought that out could find it. Right?

But, like, it was still kind of over there.

Right.

Right? And and now Elon is elevating — Right.

—

the modern day world that dailies of the world to the people who I don’t really follow the news that much and like they just get a little bit of the news and I think that is why it is it’s such a dangerous situation.

Okay. So let’s talk about the hometown hero here. I understand Right.

Eric Adams? I understand.

Then Oh,

we got two Eric Adams fans in the crowd. Wow.

This is my partisanship.

This is no longer Donald Trump’s hometown. This is true. Right? But but he has been spending some quality time here lately. So let’s talk about that.

He has been indicted on, like, what, three dozen charges for paying, you know, hush money to a pro start.

It feels good to come to New York and not be per block to me like — No. No.

—

it doesn’t. It’s like

—

That’s okay. — freeman.

And, of course, we had the lawsuit which he was found to have sexually assaulted a woman. I I I wrote a piece basically saying, and I’m still slightly obsessed about this. That there is literally no other area of American life, where someone could be indicted or sexually assault someone and remain the CEO of a company on the board of directors of a company, the coach of a professional team, the owner of a team, there is nothing you could not get a job at Burger King, being the manager of Burger King with Donald Trump’s record and yet, And we continue to talk about this and will for a long time. Donald Trump has been held accountable here, whereas in the process, but his poll numbers have gone up since he was Perp walked. And even since he lost that jury verdict to to Eugene Carroll, His poll numbers have gone up and his lock on the Republican Party has been stronger.

All grabs. What does that end gesture?

When you’re a podcast host,

you can do it.

They let you do it. They let let let you do any of this. Okay.

Please on the ball ball torture.

There were there was a little bit of a delay there. Sorry about that. So so let’s talk about this because and again, you and I you and I have had hundreds of conversations.

We don’t usually do this before we see each other.

She don’t

use today and gestures. I’m not use today and gestures.

So many opportunities to take an off ramp after he lost after he was impeached, all of the the times. And then I think that People like Ron DeSantis and Glen Youngen have been sitting back, waiting, okay, he’s gonna get indicted, you know, then we will be able to move in and everything. He’s indicted. He becomes stronger. So you heard a whole book about this, but it is worth continuing to discuss why is the Republican Party incapable of quitting this guy.

Why can they not take the off ramp? Help us under stand at

this psychologist? I’m gonna answer I’m gonna answer the question, but I just wanna start really quick with a little bit of happy news — Please.

—

which is his general election poll numbers haven’t gone up and he is scared not as many people as we all would wish but like quite a few people, present company included away from the Republican Party and there’s a reason why the Republican Party did a lot shittier in twenty twenty two than they should have done and it’s mostly him and, you know, a little bit of the Supreme Court.

He can win, though.

Yeah. He could. She could. Sure. Sure.

Sure. But I’m just saying that that that since all the stuff you laid out brag and Eugene Carroll, etcetera, and we could go down the whole list, He That is only it’s only improved his number is vis à vis DeSantis, right, in the primary. You know, and that’s a discrete animal. And so why can these guys not good of them. I I think the real answer is that, you know, there are two groups of people.

One is there are the voters, the people. And they wanted this. They just they wanted this all around. It’s something I grappled with in the book in a real way, which is I I do wonder if you could rewrite history could the party elites have done a better job

—

Right.

—

of trying to appeal to what those people really wanted, right, which was not globalism, which was not you know, like we could go down all the issues. Right? Like, Trump did it, and he was the first one to do it, and they have this cultish

—

Yeah. — attraction to him now. And and Ron DeSantis, no matter how hard he tries, no matter how mean he is to trans people, no matter what he does, he still smells like a fucking Neoka. He still smells like two thousand two, you know, Carl Rowe. Okay.

So And so so so Trump doesn’t. So he has that hold over them because of that. The rest of the folks, like, why is Chris Rossavita and my old colleague, Susie Wiles, why are they helping him? Yeah. Stories all this time.

Thirst for power.

You wrote about this, and and I think the the image that you had was that the Republican elites are not waiting to be defeated by Donald Trump. They were basically ballgagging themselves in the basement. Was that was was that you, Tim?

Well, that was me. There there there Alright. That that evocative metaphor was brought up because my friend, Jonathan Martin, wrote this story, and I love Jay Mart. And he’s the best chronicler because they all still talk to him. He’s Kronkalov, like, what does the Republican consulting class think?

And he is doing an interview. He’s he did a column recently, where one of the Republican Ron DeSantis, who he was very prominent, so I take him at his word, said that he’s like, you know, the the numbers that we’re looking at, it’s just feels like it’s gonna be Trump again, and we’re just gonna have to go back down in the basement and ride this out. And that is what led me to wonder Where do you think you’ve been the last seven years? Like, you’ve been in the basement the whole fucking time, bro? Like, he has you bought gag down there and, like, that is the deal.

It’s not like it is the anti to use a poker term is to be on board with it. And they’ve gotten so used to it and so comfortable with it that in spite of everything that’s happened, in spite of the deaths of the capital, Like, they’re still gonna they’re still gonna write it out.

You broke it down in like twelve different ways of appeasing Donald Trump. I mean, you have the transactionalist, you have the fessionals. You have the cause a true believers. It it continues to be a remarkable thing. And I and I know that, you know, clearly, what you’re seeing is that this is what the base wants.

Fox News knows what their audience wants, the politicians think they know what the base wants. And yet, this is the question that nags at me, and we’ll never know the answer. If you did have some of the leaders of the party at that time, the pre Trump Republican party, if they had stood up and said, look, this is nuts, this is crazy. And some of them did and they got rolled over. Yeah.

But there is that failure because, you know, and I’m so sick of this, the number of Republicans that we know that will say in private, well, yeah, we know this. We listen to the bulwark. But but if I did this, I would lose my primary And I think people need to understand that when we talk about tribal politics, it’s not just politics. This is this is people’s their communities, the clubs they belong to, their co workers, their family members, and you either belong or you don’t belong. And one other thing that that Tim and I have experienced is that feeling of excommunication where it’s It feels

great, actually. Being excommunication Well, no

well alive.

And I’ve never been excommunicated for anything, but it feels nice

I don’t I don’t disagree, but I mean, understand when you lose, you know, you all of your professional associates, but also many friends, people you’ve known for years, and I have to say one of the big shocks for us has been people we’ve known for twenty years. And I hear you just describe it just last week. You said, I can’t believe I saw that person doing this sort of thing. And it continues to be a a a shot. And so there is that alienation.

But you’re also right. There is also a liberation. When you step out and realize how much of our politics is that if you’re on team a, you must agree with everything that team a does. If you’re on team b, you must defend everything that team b does. That after a while, that becomes a habit.

But when you step outside, it is incredibly liberating and incredibly refreshing. And I think that that’s what we’ve tried to do with the bulwark. I think that that’s what what has bonded us together, is that we’re all people that kinda stepped out of a cave and looked around and said, hey, this is actually kind of nice out here.

That’s still nice, Cessena. Thank you all for coming.

Alright. One one last Just

really just really quick on this.

So the

book spoiler alert. The book ends with with the book they the editor, the publisher. I just met with earlier. I don’t have a good idea for a second book. So if any of you guys have a good idea, please let me know.

But I just met with him. He wanted me to do a positive end. Like here’s how we get out of this. And and look actually ends with, you know, it looks like this road that we’re on, it goes on forever. And and and the reason why is because the people that made those decisions, made those rationalizations.

Like, those rationalizations are still operative just because Ashley Babot’s dead or just because, you know, some comps got it, like, their rationalizations, whatever they were, the different categories, whatever they were, they’re still operative. And and for us, you know, we just keep getting freer and freer. Right? Because everything that happens, like, proves us more and more right, which is really nice. And every once in a while, we’ll get we’ll we’ll pull over one or two more people, you know, across the line.

But, like, the rest of their rationalizations continue as such. And I think that is why in one of the books I was reading recently was this analogy with the devil, and it’s like the you make the deal with the devil, like, the the devil just keeps raising the ante. Right. You know? He doesn’t let you off the hook.

Right?

And And you you dental m

and Nancy’s gonna keep getting reigned.

That’s right. And and I think that they’ve they’ve lived through that. And by the way, we’d agree with you that it goes on and on. Now I was not told there would be arithmetic tonight. So how many years ago was nineteen sixty eight?

Does audio?

Oh, god. Don’t try to age us.

Okay. Now think about the impact, fifty five years. Think about the impact that the politics of nineteen sixty eight had on the decades that came after, how we’re still kinda living in the hangover of what happened in nineteen sixty eight, And if you realize that you think fifty five years from now I’m sorry. That because I think there are a lot of people that are coming into politics now looking around, they’re looking at Elon Musk’s Twitter.

How much older are you than me? I’m trying to figure out how long fifty five years so for now it’s gonna

mar that they they see Marjorie Taylor Green, and they go, that’s what a politician supposed to do. So Tim, one last time. Okay? That we had to have a bonding thing

here because

I have one more tune for you. It’s not it’s not a show journal. But Tim will get this one.

Okay? LCD sound system. Last one. What did you say? New York, I love you.

Oh, we do like this one. Thank you all so much. We love Billy Eilish.

You’ve been listening to Last night’s live event in New York City. Thank you all for listening to this weekend’s Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. We will be back on Monday in our regular venue, and we’ll do this all over dissecting

politics with exclusive views, commentary, and humor, useful idiots with Katie Halper and Aaron Mate.

I really don’t like Shark. And I think we live in a very shark agandistic world. Quote, one thing to keep in mind is sharks who are not out there trying to eat surfers and swimmer. They’d much rather eat fish, but in many cases they mistake us for their actual prey. When they do bite, they usually move on.

That’s supposed to us feel better?

Useful idiots, wherever you listen.