No matter how much the Supreme Court pretends that the words 'high crimes and misdemeanors' are not explicitly in the Constitution, Donald Trump is still a disqualified law-breaker and is exactly the kind of guy the Founding Fathers warned us about. Character is now the only real check on presidential power. Plus, if push comes to shove, what are the basic rules that govern a change at the top of the ticket? Ben Wittes and Steven Shepard join Tim Miller.
The Bulwark Podcast
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Tim Miller and guests discuss the latest political news for the flagship podcast of the Never Trump movement and the reality-based community. Every weekday we provide insightful analysis, political hot-takes, an unabashed defense of liberal democracy and long-form interviews that cut through the "both-sides" BS. Plus a few laughs to help you wash down the crazy.
An ad-free edition is exclusively available for Bulwark+ members.
Tim Miller and guests discuss the latest political news for the flagship podcast of the Never Trump movement and the reality-based community. Every weekday we provide insightful analysis, political hot-takes, an unabashed defense of liberal democracy and long-form interviews that cut through the "both-sides" BS. Plus a few laughs to help you wash down the crazy.
An ad-free edition is exclusively available for Bulwark+ members.
Appears in episode
Benjamin Wittes
Writes Dog Shirt Daily Subscribe
Tim Miller
Recent Episodes
27 minutes before we hear Tim say fucking
outrageous…. I’ve generally enjoyed listening to Ben Wittes on this podcast, but for f@cks sake stop with the interpretation and analysis of this SCOTUS decision as if it as anything other than an unconstitutional power grab by an illegitimate, ideological supreme court. STOP NORMALIZING THIS ANTIDEMOCRATIC POWER GRAB!
Did I really just hear Ben Wittes say that you can read Trump’s disqualification in the text of the 14th Amendment and you cannot read any immunity anywhere in the text of the US Constitution. And then in the very next breath he answers a listener’s email and says Congress can’t rectify this?!?! FUCKING STOP NORMALIZING THIS ANTIDEMOCRATIC SHIT!!!!
How on earth is using the office of the president to overthrow an election an official act? STOP NORMALIZING THIS SHIT!!!!
No Bulwark for me.
Thanks for that insightful info.
How I spend my time may or may not ( almost certainly not ) be of interest to you, but I’m hoping to save others from waisting their time listening to the garbage “analysis “ that the Bulwark is spewing.
Appreciate your incredible stamina for this horrific time in America. Your humor always brightens my day. Excellent outro song!
Serious question. We're told Biden can only give his $91M to Harris if he drops out. Given the SCOTUS ruling, can't Biden just give his $91M to whomever he wishes in his capacity as President if he thinks that's in the best interests of the country? Worst case, they eventually prosecute him -- we see how f-ing long the legal process takes even for the most crucial matters. He'll be dead before any trial takes place. Let's play by the rules we're given.
And if all else fails and the Democratic nominee "loses" the election, Harris is the VP and I'm told the VP has the power to reject electors and accept alternate electors. Surely no MAGA folks would have a problem if she overturned a Trump win, right?
Tim, you’re killing it here. Your work ethic is impressive.
Shouldn’t Biden resign now? Kamala becomes president and runs as the incumbent. I doubt anyone of significance would challenge her so the delegates would follow suit. She retains all the campaign contributions under the Biden/Harris campaign. She fares better in the polls than Biden does. How do we make this happen?
Yes. This is not only the best path forward but the only path forward.
Love the idea of two new candidates. It brings reality tv to the Democratic Party.
Reality TV has worked so well for the Republicans . . .
Here’s what Congress could do about the SCOTUS ruling: create a cause of action in the DOJ to prosecute Trump in absentia, essentially. Define in this very narrow situation a “case or controversy” as one so critically important to the general public that the trial may be proceed—even if Trump cannot be punished, he can be shown with evidence to be the criminal he is. Make it public. Give DOJ subpoena power.
*clarifying: create a cause of action that the USA may bring thru the DOJ prosecuting in absentia leaders who engage in coups …
Thank you so much Tim. This episode delivered for me in so many ways. I had been 100% avoiding all political podcasts since the debate. I just couldn’t stomach dedicating my free time to confronting our current national reality. But I decided to take the plunge with your pod tonight, and boy am I glad I did. Ben Wittes echoed and confirmed many of the (not actually, it turns out) crazy little voices I’ve had going in my head since the ruling came down on Monday. And your conversation with Stephan Shepherd was thoroughly informative and even handed.
And then Tom Petty at the end? 😘🇺🇸
I am rusty on my civics. At roughly the 56 minute mark Steven Shepherd said that a Harris-Newsom ticket would not be eligible to win the 50+ California Electoral votes. What is that about? Would adding any governor as VP have the same impact on Electoral votes? This doesn't make sense.
They are both California residents, twelfth amendment states they can't be from same state.
Thank you John!
This is the first Bulwark pod I could listen to since the panic-fest on Friday. So nice to hear calmer voices, and Ben’s measured tone is very comforting. We are still in a terrifying place, but good pod, Tim.
Tim Miller, on Hulu try "Shoresy" for a distraction.
Tim, great podcast today. Steve Shepard raises two issues with an open convention (in the event Biden releases his delegates); chaos and money. I suggest these issues can be resolved by 1) have the delegates use rank choice voting to select the nominee and 2) each candidate has to pledge to retain Kamala as the VP in the event she is not selected as the candidate. Rank choice voting can avoid the chaos of round after round of voting. Then, the monies raised under the Biden/Harris ticket would stay with her since she is still on the ticket. Thoughts?
So I know all y'all are boss types and therefore probably like golf but I commented this on Reddit and I still can't get over it.
That exchange about golf during the debate struck me as the stupidest part of a very stupid evening. The right answer was something along the lines of "we're trying to save democracy, fuck golf." And instead it turned into alpha old dude pissing match.
And I'm not young. But I can't believe that there aren't plenty of other people who were watching who also regard the candidates' golf handicap as the very very least of our problems right now.
Well, I certainly hope Trump is the better golfer. He spent more time playing golf than attending to his presidential duties. That's something nobody will ever accused Joe Biden of!
I, too, found this infuriating. It was a ridiculous display of old man entitlement, a withered cock fight while the barn walls burn down around us all.
I hate golf
I will actively avoid men my age who talk about golf. Tim hates golf? Man, I _really_ hate golf.
Is that even allowed as a white guy in politics?
Stated reason for leaving Republican party--Donald Trump
Real reason for leaving Republican party--about to be outed as a golf hater. 🤣
I’m willing to stipulate that I’ve seen lots of better middle-school debates. Blechhh.
But the one we need to make sure we help step aside isn’t Biden.
Sarah Isgur? Is she out of children to kidnap?
That’s the first thing I thought. She is a terrible person.
I find her legal analysis to be AWFUL. David French analysis is at least accurate
She could be Locke reborn, she still should only be known as a defender of child separation.
lol fair. The dispatch annoys the shit out of me
They’ve got (or had) a really terrific writer named Rachel Larimore. I don’t know if she’s left because I won’t read it.
The Bulwark should get her. We fought a lot on Twitter about morullae and embryos, but I know she never envisioned anything like the post-Dobbs hellscape.
SHe is still there, only writes the weekly newsletter about what happened the previous week, on Sundays.
I don;'t know if you know this , but she was at the Bulwark first, I assume she got a better offer or she was more in line with their mission at the Dispatch
I actually like a lot of the posters there, and I love Nick, though miss David, I actually like reading Jonah and Kevin even if I rarely agree with them
Funny cause everyone told the antiabortion people that this would be the consequence and they didn't believe us.
The beginning and end of Roe each fell within my lifetime.
I’d have been happy to fill in anyone who was unsure about what pre-Roe was like.
It is astonishing that people can see the sequala of Dobbs and think that Trump doesn't mean for transformational change.
Although Biden will likely not win OH, I’d still like to be able to vote for him.
While you're on the subject of voting in Ohio . . . Is Sherrod Brown competitive? His campaign has been spamming my inbox with contribution requests.
Absolutely. He’s been our blue-collar, populist Dem senator forever. I think he will keep the seat.
Thanks. In 2022 I sent a few bucks to Tim Ryan and Raphael Warnock - my first-ever contributions to Democrats. This year I'm looking for similarly close races against extreme Republicans where my contribution might make a difference.
Me too
Please get comment from Ben on this question: Is an illegal command to the military still illegal if the president issues it but cannot be prosecuted for it? Barring a pardon, other people can still be prosecuted for illegal acts, right?
Yep but trump knows this. He will just pardon them. It’s completely fucked up
He will unless he decides not to. The ultimate power. When will this guy have to experience real consequences for his actions?
When E. Jean Carroll sues him for defamation a third time!
Not for a very long time
As cheerless as the past five days have been, Season 3 of “The Bear” is worse.
Way too much time on the two goofball brothers and their “haunting.” Where’s an editor when you need one?
Did you know that the more visible of the two brothers (Matty Matheson) is a real chef and the technical advisor on the show? I thought that was so cool.
And all the famous chefs who appeared throughout the season were playing themselves. That was great.
Apart from that and the baby show I am absolutely exhausted by this family.
I was waiting for it because season 1 and 2 were AWESOME but I don’t really understand what season 3 is?
I made it to the end and was somewhat baffled about what I had just watched. I absolutely think Carmy is losing his shit.
But there’s a Season 4 already being written and filmed for next year so perhaps all will be clear in the fullness of time.
Like the election.
Oh Carmey is clearly losing his shit and acting like the teacher he hated. I guess…I don’t understand what season 3 was about. I guess all the characters being stuck but other than that it seemed…to not advance the show?
They said it was the “legacy” season.
Tina’s husband is her real husband. I was happy to learn that, so that was a nice thing.
And in about ten minutes they made Mikey more human than he’d ever been. So, props.
Other than that 🤷🏼♀️
Love Mikey
Except at Christmas. Yowza.
Serious question: Do we actually think a contested convention is a possibility? (there is a correct answer to this)
I think you can see on here how I feel about the idea of a brokered convention but if jb dropped out it would be a brokered convention (factually) BUT it would go to Kamala pretty quickly although I think she would have to do some negotiating on her Vp, sec of education, etc. BUT this would be done before the convention so if you mean an open convention in August…then no.
That is what is so irritating about the people who call for jb to back down BUT expect Kamala not to be the pick
If Joe Biden steps down then it is likely to be some form of brokered/open/contested. You would have ~4000 delegates free to vote their conscience.
I imagine Kamala Harris would win fairly quickly but I don’t think it would necessarily be on the first ballot since that’s when the noise would happen.
no it’d just go to Harris. a contested convention is just beltway reporter fanfic
It only takes a second ballot to be considered a contested convention. I think you are confusing the process. Even if it was staged so that Harris would be the nominee the factions would likely get to vote their way on the first ballot. To say that there is no chance of a second ballot is simply not logical.
What “factions”? they’re all Biden delegates pick purely because they’re party loyalists
It would be different if he were to resign the presidency but we've seen before where first ballots can be used as protest votes. The reality is Joe Biden loses his clout when he steps aside so telling his delegates to vote for her won't stop their apprehension.
I'm not saying 50% on first ballot can't happen but it's not a fan fiction. We don't know how Kamala Harris will handle the next two months. What if she flops or someone prominent decides to publicly go against her?
Not in a trillion years. Do I win?
(yes)
Please send $5 in my honor to Sherrod Brown and feel free to quiz me anytime.
seriously though if Biden steps down it *will* be Harris and I’m a little peeved that we’re being subjected to beltway media JO material instead of having this be accurately conveyed
I kinda dislike not having a say, I am for Biden, not Kamala
He won’t step down. What’s JO?
synonym for a word that rhymes with ‘lanking’
Another quiz? $10 now.
And it’s only a synonym is Brit-English.
Here you’d want something rhyming with “working” off.
Kafkaesque.
Having not listened to this yet, my take on the ambiguity or lack of clarity on what is what within the framework (or lack thereof) that SCOTUS outlined is that, without clarity, no lower court can have certainty about any of their findings. The lower courts had some pretty frickin' good guidance on whether a president was immune from criminal prosecution, yet it was totally gutted by SCOTUS. It's hard for me not to look at the built-in ambiguity of this latest ruling as to allow for all decisions about what is what when determining immunity to ultimately be theirs to decide.
I think the buckets are crystal clear: if you shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue, that's personal conduct, not immune; if you send Seal Team 6 to shoot the person, it's presumptively immune; if you pull out a revolver and fire it while giving the State of the Union address, it's absolutely immune; and if a congressman fires back, that's what Ben called "speech and debate immunity."
I don't know whether to laugh or cry
Kamala may be on to something with the inappropriate laughter...
In other words, it's a feature, not a bug.
Hey Tim, keep crushing it.
I wanted to ask if you could get Elaine Kamarck, from brookings to be on the show to discuss what a brokered convention would look like. She is and has been a delegate and does a great job explaining what would happen if jb dropped out.
PS: David Frum in the Alantic has a good piece about why we shouldn't do this
Oh in this media environment it will be 7 weeks of “Dems in disarray.” Knowing Dems it will be protests outside and dysfunction inside.
Yeah, you know how they always use that herding cats thing, I just can't imagine this going well if they go that way
Plus, I am concerned about the pro Hamas people causing more problems
That’s the “protests outside” I was talking about. Our shitshow
And how resplendent that it would be in Chicago. Apparently none of the pundits was alive for 1968.
I’ll stick with Biden, thanks.
Oh Kim. I’m drowning in the political bs.
I’m going to rant here. I love Biden. I think he is great. I’m not stupid either. Maybe he isn’t the one but (1) I have no control what he does so why bs about it and (2) I don’t think it’s helpful to pile on.
However, I’m going to lose my mind if I have to hear about a fucking brokered convention. If you want Biden to drop out (not you) then explain why Kamala is better. Please please please leave the brokered convention out of it.
I struggle with what to do because voters are fucking idiots. I want someone to convince me that Kamala is better. I hear their arguments. She will be better at prosecuting the case against Trump. AGREE!!! I just don’t know if it matters. I’ve met a ton of stupid people. They know what Trump is. Not sure that is what is needed but I could be wrong.
My problem is the choices are: an old, white dude who may or may not fall asleep versus a thoughtful, smart, vigorous black woman. I think American would vote for the former over the latter. God I hope I’m wrong.
Kamala is an excellent speaker and a fine and smart woman.
She’s also the black and Asian daughter of people who were not citizens when she was born.
Debate Topic # 1: Citizenship and birtherism.
She is black and Asian.
Debate Topic #2: Racist attacks.
She is a woman.
Debate Topic #3: Misogyny and angry black woman tropes.
She married a Jew.
Debate Topic #4: Antisemitism
She had a relationship openly with a married man who is still a married man who unfortunately is also still alive and never shuts up.
Debate Topic #5: I’ll leave it to your imagination.
These wouldn’t be the listed topics, of course, but it won’t matter. The moderators won’t be able to put the train back on the tracks, nor will they try very hard.
Additionally, no one can fight a firehose of bullshit, and I say that as a trial lawyer. When I had a psycho on the stand order was often maintained only because of the presence of a judge with arrest powers and the presence of deputies.
Our VP might handle Trump more successfully than Biden did but it will still be a bloodbath. Remember Hillary. She beat him every debate and all anyone remembers him hulking around behind her.
The only good part would be the VP turning around to say, “Get your fat ass back to your podium, Donald.”
I know. I struggle.
It would make me feel great if Kamala said “Get your fat ass back to your podium, Donald.” However I think it would hurt her. Welcome to America
I assume it would be bad? If it is a s**t show, it won't help us, no matter who is running, it will hurt us
Hmmm actually she is not that negative on it but explains the pitfalls and more importantly, how it would work. She says the muscle memory has atrophied but not dead (her major point that the convention for 40 years have been a coronation not an election). However she explains who the people are who are making decisions and how they think about it.
Fundamentally the “delegates” are activists that are loyal to Biden/harris. However, they have goals and if they have the chance to further their goals (think labor union leaders, naacp, gun activists, etc) so they will negotiate for their positions and try to gain leverage. Also it tends to be geographical. So each state has a delegation. So maybe the Michigan and Wisconsin coalition are labor leaders but the Iowa delegation are farmers. However, if gretch walks in most of the Michigan electors will be with her but she has no knowledge of the California or Florida delegation. It’s horse trading at its best. It will look like the Republican speaker race where you are trading power, people, policy for votes. For example, she talks about the 1960 convention between lbj and jfk. JFK hated lbj but had to give him the vp spot in order to get over the line with delegates.