Charlie and Mona have their doubts. Also will cameras in federal court case help or hurt Trump? How should anti-Trump Republicans pitch the stakes in 2024?
Just Between Us
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Mona Charen is joined by her Bulwark colleagues to unburden themselves on this members-only podcast. Join them Tuesdays.
Only for Bulwark+ members.
Mona Charen is joined by her Bulwark colleagues to unburden themselves on this members-only podcast. Join them Tuesdays.
Only for Bulwark+ members. 
Appears in episode
Charlie Sykes
Mona Charen
I understand, Mona. I love them less, too, even the ones I'm related to.
Thanks for the tip, Mona. Started watching Bad Sisters after listening to this pod. Delicious!
Thanks for the tip, Mona. Started watching Bad Sisters after listening to this pod. Delicious!
Mona: "If I could just have one wish it would be that Nikki Haley would be the Republican party nominee and then I could breathe easy about so many things, about the future of this country."
Charlie: "Words you proabably didn't think you'd say 6 months ago. ... I completely agree with you"
So true!
Love your idea of George W Bush's, etc getting together now to warn of the existential threat of Trump 2.0! Wouldn't that help Nikki do well in those first couple of primaries, then perhaps win S Carolina?
It still appears to me that the goal of No Labels is to pull Biden to the center - i.e., to detach him from the Democratic left and make him appeal more to centrist voters. So, I don't think they are sincere about running a third party campaign for the presidency - the threat to do so is just a means to an end. I hope it works.
The trial should not be televised. This is the federal court system, not a tent revival.
There will be a transcript. At some point in the future it will be released. The historical record will be preserved.
Ruthless we have had. But not psychotic.
Low information voters won't know what to do with a third party, they can barely function with two. There I said it !
I think the premise underlying the critique of No Labels is that Joe Biden is the best or only person who can compete with Donald Trump. I believe the the American electorate (and in particular swing voters, who are the real key to the election's outcome) are making it pretty clear they will not be giving Joe Biden a majority of their votes next year. In other words, he's probably already lost. Some of these voters may go for Trump, some for Biden, but many will vote for neither or will plant their votes somewhere else - regardless of whether No Labels fields a candidate or not. The only ones who can stop the futility of a Joe Bide rerun (and the growing tide of third-fourth-fifth-etc. candidacies) are (a) Joe Biden, by withdrawing post haste, or (b) the Democratic Party, by nominating someone else (also post haste). Absent that, I think it's pretty clear to me that trying to corral the extra-party candidates back into the two-party barn just isn't going to work. It's the wrong strategy for playing what is, at the moment, a pretty grim hand.
Who is the No Labels candidate? For those who don't think Biden is the right Democrat, then who is? It's time to stop being abstract. The election is a year away and that really isn't a long time. Financing and mounting a national campaign takes time and explicit planning.
Here's what we know: Trump shot up in the polls once the indictments started. This assumes he attracted some support from those who aren't in his cult, people who don't buy the idea he's a great persecuted martyr, but could be starting to think he's too obsessed over. There are varying degrees of anti-establishment voters, many who think the system is corrupt or unfair. As Mona points out, people aren't widely plugged-in to what's happening, how grave the threat is, or to the details of what Trump has said and done since the 2020 election. Many don't trust the legal system and see news surrounding Trump as background noise. They may dismiss him as a loudmouth with no teeth, but know the system has teeth and can be merciless. I agree with Mona about the cameras. I do not think seeing him sitting in a federal court drives as many swing voters away as it attracts, judging by how the indictments have coincided with his rise in the polls. I'd rather see Biden surrogates dispassionately detail his extremism -- not judge it, not rail against it, describe and detail it. And it would be nice if there were less opportunities for Trump to play the martyr to a corrupt system. Just because we see through his act doesn't mean it doesn't work to some degree on others, some of them swing voters in swing states.
No wars under Trump? Weren't we still fighting in Afghanistan?
Actual troops in Afghanistan back then. No troops in Ukraine or Israel now.
Fantasy politics here:
But if, by some miracle, Nikki Haley beats Trump in the Primaries, that would be wonderful. I would welcome a presidential race between Joe Biden and Nikki Haley: two normal people with experience and also foreign policy credentials. Now, that's a REAL choice!
The pro-Russia traitors would not see that as a real choice!
I have a pony, to borrow from Will…what if No Labels runs a split ticket, pulls mostly disaffected Republicans and then, when it is clear they can’t win and are hurting Biden, they pull out and endorse Biden? I know, I know but I just listened to Hacks on Tap with Mark McKinnon and he didn’t think a Manchin or Lieberman would want the stain of a Trump victory to be their legacy.
If memory serves, No Labels began with Mark McKinnon and Mark Penn. My trust isn't inspired. Mona's right, it has to come from the actual grass roots up through the party structures. This feels more like Dick Armey's Tea Party.
To add to the conversation of what we’re watching, try Pieces of Her on Netflix with Tony Collette. Great plot and characters. Just when you think you’ve figured it out something unexpected comes in. Each episode is more intense with added twists. Try and keep up!
to listen is all important-----that means to- BOTH PARTIES---- and when you have listened,-- make up YOUR MIND and not ANY POLITICAL PARTIES, they cannot make up your mind-----ONLY YOU CAN !----REMEMBER----ONLY YOU CAN,-- YES IT MAY BE HARD----BUT IT MUST BE DONE-- AND BY YOU! and YOU ALONE----- PS I'm not a member of any party, I'm able to make up my- OWN MIND, I will listen to both sides, and I will---- MAKE MY OWN DECISION-----NOT ANY PARTIES--- YOU HAVE A MIND--USE IT !!!!! PLEASE JUST TRY IT--IT WILL NOT HURT -BUT IT WILL BE HARD TO DO !!!!
Glad we have measured, sane and calm commenters here.
After this podcast aired, the congress passed the staggered CR.(with the help of Democrats).Here is my question: how long does Mike Johnson remain speaker?
good question?----it depends who? or what ? they PISS OFF-----and no one cares--? little Mikey is just a" TOAD".--this will not change at all.
His purpose is to refuse to certify the Presidential election of Biden wins. The plan was obvious when they picked him out of no where an voted unanimously.
WELL----rlritt WAS SOOooo correct !!!! I AGREE WITH rlritt without any complaint NO LABELS WILL NOT WIN. this was designed to take all correct /LEGAL--VOTES. AND INSURE THEIR PERSON A WIN, AND TO HELL WITH ALL WHO GOT FOOLED-------DUMMIES!
Mona's statement about "letting the sewer gas escape" is very good description of what has happened to todays Trumpified GOP.
SEWER GAS has a use---right ?. now put it to a good use, right ? WELL BURN OUT THE WRONG!, d. j. "trump" the HUMP! is a very GOOD START----very GOOD START for a CHANGE, got it ?
The other day I wrote a piece (as briefly as I could) about the history of presidential third parties.Long story short; they are utter and total failures.The second lesson is third parties elect people that they are totally opposed to.Another total failure for third parties.Where No Labels and Joe Manchin should put their efforts into is building independents from the local and state levels (from the ground up and not from the top down).If No Labels runs Joe Manchin,Larry Hogan or John Huntsman,Trump will win and hope the guardrails hold. And hope is not a strategy.
no Labels must be the "TURD" party they were talking about, the only thing NO LABELS has proven is they have learned to LIE, must be put to the TIME they spent with UBER-RIGHT. a big PS TO BE LEARNED FROM THIS , they are owned by the d. j. 'trump" the HUMP! party,MAGA ,Rapethepublic Greedy OLD Pricks party (aka Republicans G.O.P. party) YA THINK?
With all due respect to two of my favorite commentators, the question of sincerity on the part of No Labels is irrelevant. Plenty of people will probably disagree with me, but I've never seen "sincerity" as either a virtue or a vice: it's just a personal trait. The only importance of sincerity is what the person who has it is sincere ABOUT. Nobody was ever more sincere than Adolf Hitler when it came to his hatred of Jews, after all.
No Labels, as you've both said many times, only improves Trump's chances of winning. That should disqualify them, whether they're sincere or cynical.
The question of Trump as uniquely harmful interests me. I think a case can definitely be made, but the question strikes me as the flip side of the Great Man idea, the idea that certain figures in history did things no one else could have done, things we usually think of as positive. I'm more and more convinced every year that without FDR, the world doesn't get through the Depression or WWII. Is the negative true for Trump? Is he so bad that without him things wouldn't be anywhere near this bad? I don't have an answer but it's an inte question.
d. j. "trump"the HUMP! must just LOVE Hitler and his ilk. the only thing wrong with them-----they lived too-- DAMN-- long! if they had been cut-off 4 yrs. earlier, 6 million Jewish people , and others could have been saved---GO FIGURE ?
No cameras in the courtroom:
1. Trump should not get the special treatment of an exception to the rules of federal court procedure just because he's who he is, on general principles;
2. He WILL do his best to make the trial a show, and to bring disrepute on the justice system;
3. Allowing cameras in the DC courtroom will set a precedent that may then have to be followed in the Fort Pierce courtroom, and that is totally unacceptable in a classified documents case where the controls are already complicated enough, and the judge gives every appearance of being biased in Trump's favor already.
The question that comes to my mind is, Who is the intended beneficiary of the prohibition on cameras in federal court rooms? Is it the defendant, or the witnesses, or the court itself?
That's a fair question, and I don't know the answer because I don't know the history of the rule. My guess would be the court itself, to keep what's supposed to be a formal proceeding from turning into a sideshow. Remember Judge Lance Ito? I imagine that he had quite an impressive future in front of him until the OJ trial was televised.
So far, Judge Scott McAfee in Atlanta has been defying the Ito Curse and getting high marks for his YouTube channel, but he hasn't had Trump himself in court yet. It's hard for me to imagine how justice can be served by televising Trump and Aileen Cannon mugging for the cameras, surrounded by highly classified documents.
please leave it up to the JUDGE, if your OPINION is wanted the JUDGE can as you for it, and as the UBER-RIGHT would say SHUT THE HELL UP!
What a bizarre, semi-literate comment! Thanks for participating ... I guess. 😂
Mona, that line about liking your fellow Americans less hit me like a bolt of lightning. Because it’s absolutely true for me.
Thinking about No Labels, I’m definitely not a fan but I wonder if they don’t become a vote sink for a bunch of republicans who can’t vote Biden but then that changes the math in each state - sort of like Ross Perot in 1992. I mean, how else would Clinton have won Montana? So perhaps we see a split but that opens up the opportunity for Biden to win states with 38-43 percent of the vote. These are states he wouldn’t have won before but now become possible because the dynamic changed. It’s still one heck of a risky proposition though if the only goal is to defeat Trump. Which I believe it is.
"Biden's record on inflation...", is that the US has had the lowest inflation rate of all first-world nations. Are that many people so ignorant and/or obtuse that they're unable to comprehend that inflation has been a big problem worldwide, and that we here in the US are rather fortunate to have inflation rates that are the lowest among developed nations? Large swaths of our population seem to lack any perspective beyond that which is right in front of their noses.
The trouble with peoples perceptions is that they want prices to to be at 2019 levels. That won't happen.Thats deflation. Perhaps one rung under depression.
I think for some, inflation is like a guy that cuts you off in traffic. Immediately they get annoyed and that small annoyance stays with them and it’s hard to let go - it’s just omnipresent for a time. But everything is more expensive now and that’s a reality Biden has to address when he’s running.
the inflation problem is NOT DUE TO ANYTHING THE PRESIDENT HAS OR NOT DONE, so why are you blaming him???, please remove your HEAD from your FANNY and look at the real problem---- for a change.
That's not exactly true. The first round of inflation was a result of the third round of Covid stimulus, imposed by Democrats even though no one really wanted it, except for a few state governments. And there are things Biden could do to reduce inflation - e.g., cut Trump's tariffs or loosen up on immigration restrictions - but Biden would never do those things because tariffs and tight labor markets are too popular with his favorite constituency, Big Labor.
I think it’s hilarious that you mentioned loosening immigration restrictions like the GOP wouldn’t try to bury him with that. Please spare us the nonsensical argument about Big Labor.
It's not nonsense at all. Biden is quite proud to stand with Big Labor - he even joined the UAW on the picket line. And American industrial unions have always favored both tariffs and immigration restriction.
My point, in context, is that Biden's hands are not tied - he could take steps to reduce inflation. All he would have to do is reverse some of Trump's policies, but he seems to like Trump's policies. As a NeverTrumper who hates Trump's policies, I will continue to criticize Biden for maintaining Trump's bad policies.
No.
I do not believe that no labels is sincere because (1) they cannot win but are telling us they can, (2) if they were sincere they would have ran an actual no labels person or persons for senate/congress to prove they could actually win anywhere with a no labels ticket and (3) if they care about choices shouldn’t they have a primary not a backroom deal?
I have a more basic question about no labels: let’s say in this fantasyland that no labels wins (not going to happen). What happens on day 1? They have no control over either party. Can’t whip votes. Nobody in congress’s political career is dependent on the president so why take political risks. Realistically doesn’t it mean that our politics get worse? Like nothing gets done?
When Mona said that about her love for her fellow Americans, I felt it in my very soul.
I can't unsee the past 8 years. So much ugliness. So much dishonesty. So much betrayal. The values I held in the Before Times are still here with me; stronger even than before, perhaps. But that person - the naively optimistic person that had faith in his country and fellow man, as recently as 2020 - that person is gone and I don't think he's coming back.
That person IS GONE ! they will not return ever. so they they get smarter ? maybe? I do not know I can only hope and **************
No offense, but my initial reaction when Mona suggested that maybe Dick Cheney endorse Biden, my initial reaction was “Dear God, please, no.”
I appreciate the center-right political reality checks The Bulwark gives Democrats, but here is one from the center left: the man best remembered for the Iraq War and shooting someone probably isn’t the best surrogate. Mitt Romney is a different story, but Dick Cheney is particularly politically toxic; and his endorsement would almost lend credence to the Lefty / MAGA “uni-party” conspiracy theory, especially when one of the main charges against Biden by the far-left and far-right is that he’s a “warmonger.”
To be fair, us Duck Cheney haters aren’t the target audience.
There is just no way “Dick Cheney endorses Biden” wouldn’t be a breaking news story; and the amount of people who could be persuaded by Cheney comes nowhere close to the number who would definitely vote for Trump or a third party because of his endorsement
The people who still like Dick Cheney don't remember him for the things that you do; people who find him "particularly politically toxic" are never going to vote for Trump anyway, so they aren't in the target audience. Still, Liz would be a much better spokesperson.
Firstly, Trump specifically ran against “Bush-ism” during ‘15/‘16 when he tied Jeb, Clinton, and the “establishment” to the 2003 Invasion of Iraq and promised to end the “forever wars” started under the Bush-Cheney administration. During the primary debates he literally called the war a “big, fat, mistake,” said it was started on a lie, and that George W. Bush maybe should’ve been impeached over it. If you look at Liz Cheney’s ‘22 primary last year that she lost by almost 30 points, almost as many of Trump’s attacks on her were linking her to her father and W. Bush as were criticizing her “disloyalty” to him. “Dick Cheney” was literally used as an epithet during the GOP debate last week. So I would say not only do a lot of people repelled by Cheney vote for Trump/ MAGA, but that it’s also been pretty apparent since ‘15 that if you like Bush/ Cheney policies, Trump is not really for you. Even though Bush and Cheney haven’t made it explicit they’re anti-Trump, MAGA has made it clear it’s anti-them.
Secondly, obviously The Bulwark crowd likes Cheney for his general conservatism, etc., but Cheney and W. Bush are mostly remembered for the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars and their fallouts. Very few people hear “George Bush” or “Dick Cheney” and immediately think of “No Child Left Behind” or “AIDs relief in Africa;” almost everyone thinks of the wars, which lasted for decades, defined American foreign policy for almost the whole first quarter of the 21st century, and are now largely regarded as failures. So tying Dick Cheney to Biden, in the context of him trying to navigate wars in Europe and the Middle East, while already having low approval ratings with young progressives and facing at least 3-5 anti-war opponents in ‘24, would probably drive away more voters than you could possibly gain. Besides, it’s not just Trump and Biden in ‘24, there’s also at least Cornell West, RFK Jr., Jill Stein, and the libertarian. A vote for any one of them will mostly help Trump (like in ‘15).
While foreign policy is a salient issue I just don’t think it makes sense to draw the comparison between Biden and the initiators of the Iraq War, especially since all of his political opponents are already trying to paint him as too involved internationally. Joe Biden is already the internationalist candidate, you don’t need to tie him to one of the most unpopular hawks to make that point. If there were to be a conservative endorsement of Biden, it would probably be more helpful coming from someone who doesn’t have that particular baggage.
Lizz Chenney and Addam Kinzinger. JVL once fantasized about those two coming on stage at the Democratic convention for that message.Lizz Chenney has stated that she will do anything to keep Trump from the Whitehouse.I don't think that is so far fetched.
This is kind of a Catch 22 situation. If there are cameras in the courtroom, the orange Hitler will do everything he can to turn the whole thing into a reality TV shitshow for his braindead cult fans. If there are no cameras, he will take advantage of it and manufacture his own reality of what was really said and done, play the victim as usual and rant about it daily on his bottom of the barrel social media.
d. j. "trump" the HUMP! can change his mind( If he has one ) at the drop of a HAT (the bald don't wear one ) so like before d. j. "trump" the HUMP! will make it all up ! as he will do-- MOST of the time--. belive you me, d. j. "trump" the HUMP! is not to be trusted-he always LIES , he thinks that's better then telling the TRUTH or it's easier for him to do----who has any time for TRUTH? -----NOT HIM. and that's certain.
I can see both sides of it. However,Charlie has the strongest point about the constant parade of witnesses against Trump (and they are all Trump people). I don't see cameras being allowed however.
Bad sisters is fantastic!!
The thought of Manchin, Lieberman, Larry Hogan (I know you're his fangirl, Sarah, for reasons that escape me) sitting around with No Label advisors convincing themselves they will save America makes me taste my vomit a little.
It does really get nauseating when Manchin starts equivocating and triangulating between the two parties when he has agreed with Biden 89 % of the time.
That would be a nice legacy for Joe Manchin wouldn't it?
True although there will be lots of hate to go around: Cornel West. Jill Stein., maybe even RFK Jr. Of course only us normies will hate them. Their supporters will justify their stupidity as we burn in the renewed reign of the Mad Orange King.
RFK jr.would probably help Biden.I know that is hard to believe.But RFK would draw MAGA voters from Trump.A good tell is The Trump people are attacking RFK.
Hard to say. Until recently I thought that was correct. But Jr. came out strong in favor of Israel recently (as did Biden) so progressives seem to be dumping Jr and Biden for Cornel West. Some polling suggests Jr pulls about the same from Trump and Biden. Hard to know what it will look like next November, except the strong likelihood progressives will abandon Biden and go kamikaze for West or Jill Stein. Only hopeful thing is inflation is now really slowing.
No Labels is sincere about wanting to @#$% things up with plausible claims of wanting someone other than Biden or Trump.
Yes, sad that the possibility of Trump as POTUS again is less horrible to them than Biden POTUS again. No, they'll never admit they're spoilers for just one side.
I wish this was not true but I feel that you may be right
I’ve followed No Labels since 2015, attending two of their Presidential forums and have concluded they are an astroturfing group with little grassroots support. They were secretive and have no desire for transparency. Let’s not for get they once advocates for getting big money out of politics and now are a 100% dark money group. So I, they are not sincere
NO LABELS are not sincere?--WHAT A CONCEPT !!! Wow who would think that they would LIE? must be all the time spent with, d. j. "trump" the HUMP!, and as we all know he can't LIE? when he's eating or asleep !
But they will have enough pull to put Trump over the top.The margins are slim.It won't take much.
They aren't on the ballot in many states, but the scary thing is they are focusing on Swing states.
Rather than a “he can’t be president again” ad, how about one that portends rhe real danger? Kind of like the flower girl ad used by LBJ against Goldwater. A “this is what your life will be like without democracy”
Good Idea.Paging Rick Wilson!
It’s kind of funny that they ran what were essentially RVAT ads against Goldwater:
https://youtu.be/5tqTZW7pHzI?si=Jw4c29k4DY8Rosc3
Fascinating!
I'm with Charlie on getting double-haters to write someone in or stay home rather than trying to get them to vote for Biden. They definitely tune you out. Trump getting less votes is good enough, trying to get Biden more votes from double-haters is probably a backfire strategy.
Here is an idea Charlie proposed a while back.Republicans who want to move on from Trump vote for all the republicans you want to down ballot but leave the presidential slot blank or fill some other name.
I would like to leave that slot blank----------BUT WHO WOULD VOTE FOR ASSHOLE .??? !
I also agree on this. Every double hater I know shuts down when you bring up voting for Biden. But not having them vote for Trump is important and if not Biden a vote for nobody or for Big Bird helps.
Double haters gonna hate-best to let them be them with a write in or stay home
If No Labels was sincere, instead of running someone for President, they would have taken their $70M and gone to 6-7 Rs in swing districts during this Speaker crisis saying "We've got your back - If you switch parties to No Labels, you're getting $5-10M from us to win your district in the next cycle." With those 6-7 votes, they could have selected a moderate speaker, and would remain relevant (and newsworthy) in EVERY important vote for the next 2 years... giving them insanely valuable earned media attention. If they took this path, they would be (a) relevant -- controlling the swing votes in the House, and choosing the next Speaker, and (b) well positioned for even more significant gains and maybe some Senate races in 2024. Instead, they did nothing during perhaps the largest opportunity to seize the middle in recent history. This makes me question their intentions and also question if their goal is really to create a viable 3rd party or just to consume donor money.
The fact they didn't do this, since they were instrumental in forming the Problem Solvers caucus in the House meaning they had access to moderate GOP members, told me they weren't serious. They truly were nothing much more than campaign consultant grifters with access to stupid people with big money.
You probably can't find 6-7 Republicans in Congress willing to leave the tribe.
Those that might, already left.
Agreed
LOL - you might be right. However, with $70M No Labels has a powerful carrot and stick. Carrot: Let you run as a moderate in a swing district with more financial support than either other party could provide... and Stick: No Labels runs a moderate conservative against you in the general, and siphons off 5-10% guaranteeing that the Dem wins. I think your question is good though -- are there 6-7 Rs that care more about retaining power than sticking with the tribe? If it's a cult, maybe not... people would rather (politically) die than leave... but the evidence over the last 7 years seems to be that some people will do whatever it takes to stay in power even if it means "selling out."
Cameras would be good but the judge has to restrain the defendant who wants to make the case a TV event, fraught with images of Christ on the Cross right next to Mein Fuehrer. It's a case of manipulation of people who really like being manipulated. So,the old Paul Simon line comes to mind "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."
The truly disturbing part is how many find comfort in that siren's song. A Front row seat to how Hitler did so well so fast. Fist fights, elbow jabs. playground beginnings but beginning none the less. The big kids went stage door left some time ago.
Very true.Paul Simon was such a wordsmith.
Well said. It sounds great but likely ends up a disaster
I get it
But then no cameras would allow him to spin every day outside the courtroom (like he does in NY now).There is no easy choice.There won't be any cameras allowed so the issue is moot