Trump has embraced the culture war on guns and abortion, but he is somehow being painted as a moderate again. Meanwhile, Giuliani and Abbott served up fresh reminders that MAGA thinks law and order doesn't apply to them. And today's authoritarians aren't anti-elite—it's just that the wrong elites are in charge. Tom Nichols joins Tim Miller.
show notes:
RIP Carla. I always enjoyed seeing your tweets about her. I left Twitter and that whole short-form social media format when Elon took over, so I was unaware until now if her passing. I had a similar experience with my beloved Snickers, so reading your tribute to the lovely Carla T had me teary eyed.
Love Tom’s Dorian Gray reference. A+
Great show. (fantastic bass line on the extro)
Absolutely agree with Tom on the emotional upheaval from a divorce.
While I also had a 32-inch waist in my 20s and was good for it until the divorce went to 36-inch in my 40s just after my 25th wedding anniversary when living in Boston.
(Great words on depression...when people think "cheer-up" is a reality.)
My life changed to being a single parent of a daughter with our pound-saved "Kitty," who importantly slept on my bed and ensconced herself on my desk. She was important for my "therapy" as well as for Alexandra.
Unfortunately, before my daughter went to Navy Boot Camp after graduating high school (didn't want to continue her road with drugging and drinking as did her older friends), our cat started limping...it turned out Kitty had an inoperable cancerous growth on her shoulder.
So within two weeks Kitty was euthanized and Alexandra was in Boot Camp; thereafter assigned to Norfolk, where I could see her when not at sea.
Tom would appreciate this...Alex's dream was to be assigned to the USS Constitution (Old Ironsides) in Boston Harbor, whose crew were at least Petty Officers. After attaining rank after 4-years on active duty, she applied for that station, but the ship was placed in dry-dock for repairs.
Instead, she found a placement for the final four years of her initial enlistment in Boston, where she received her BA and MS degrees (Thank you taxpayers!)
To this day we both have pictures of she, Kitty, and me.
Regarding the discussion of black men with guns and how the NRA isn’t defending them: Philando Castile had a gun when he was stopped by police in 2016. He told the cop he wasn't reaching for the gun but was shot anyway.
Tim, faithful listener here, from Minnesota and a Wolves fan. A great series and we all thought the Nuggets had it but the wolves D prevailed this time. It’s OK for you to cheer for the wolves now!
Tom is great, cracks me up every time - I especially liked his 'variations on strongly' mock of Trump. My coping mechanism for the Trump years is to indulge in America during the WW2 era. It is absolutely astounding how great we were then, ... our industrial production pumping out ships, weapons, tanks planes dwarfed every other nation; the unbelievable courage of our military (Eighth Air Force, D-Day, north Atlantic convoys, Marines in the Pacific), our political and military leadership (FDR, Eisenhower, Bradley, Nimitz, the countless members of the greatest generation), our technical achievement (Norden bombsight, Higgins boats, B-17, Manhattan Project); our post-war leadership (Nuremburg trials, NATO, Marshall Plan, the UN). How the fuck did we go from then to now? It makes me ill.
Great episode. I’ve missed Tom Nichols! I’m not sure he’s right about the 40s sucking (I was busy with kids and a career). 50s were when I had the “Guess I’m not going to do {fill in the blank}.” So far, the 60s is the “Now what?” decade and I’m just looking for new adventures. As for politics, I’m voting for Joe Biden because the last 4 years have been pretty good and I cannot imagine a worse decision than having Trump back.
I love the Bulwark. But getting the podcasts on my Apple watch is just astonishingly bad. Impossible really. I can get the dullest Economist pod every day of the week. Any Bulwark pod won't play, won't download, usually flares to some other Bulwark pod like Thursday Night which I cannot, no matter how hard I try, get rid of, even deleting or marking as played. I like to listen when I'm out running. But it's just impossible.
Joe - Didn't even know this was possible but we're happy to try to get this sorted out. Email us at members@thebulwark.com and let us know how you are subscribed on Apple Podcasts - single shows or the super feed?
Yeah. In my 40's I bought a 69 Triumph Bonneville, got a subtle tatoo and spent winters in the Keys
I crushed it in my 50's and still rockin
OK. Question,: who actually physically flipped the flag over? The gardener, handyman, the super the maid etc. Or did madam alito man the tackle out on the balcony herself?
It was a false flag operation by Antifa!
Appreciated Ton Nichol's comment on Trump's policy strategy: "He is a goldfish chasing food pellets". Totally correct and utterly hilarious!
Yes, another great Nichols-ism.
Here’s what I find ironic and baffling about the antics of Mrs. Alito and Mrs. Thomas and the little their husbands have had to say about those antics: These are the two justices who are most eager to push all women back into an Old Testament status. Yet they can’t seem to bring their own wives to heel. I suspect the answer is they haven’t tried.
They are so important that they and their wives are above criticism
We need a Tim Miller shirt in the Bulwark store…it should say, “It’s Preposterous!” ❤️❤️🤣🤣
Also, I’d like to second Tom’s point that one’s 40’s are rough. At least the first half of my 40’s…I felt a little lost. I feel like I’m finding my stride in the second half of my 40’s. For me it was shedding all that no longer served me…including the extra weight! Ha!
Love Tom Nichols! Great show!
Slight digression from the topic at hand: I’m in my early 40’s. It seems most likely to be better than my 30’s, which were absolutely better than my 20’s, which absolutely slayed my 10’s. (Though my 00’s, I’ll admit, seemed slightly better than the decade after. But that’s it.)
I seem to be aging backwards to most human beings. I do not have all that much nostalgia for decades past. They seem slow and stupid in comparison.
Weird that most people have a different take. Probably they see everything through a remaster, or somethin’. To use a Nicholsian phrase.
I've even gotten better-looking!
show off ;)
Absolutely loving my 50s. I'm with Tom. Like him, I had to start over in my 40s. I have a friend in his 40s now going through the mid-life blues and I always tell him to hang in there. At 54, I've never been happier. Now please tell me I will like my 60s too! :)
Bannon looks like he lives under a bridge. Rudi acts like he lives under a bridge. The left side of the Democratic Party is mad because with 50 senators ( two were really Republicans) couldn’t pass a Progress Agenda. Come on Bernie Bros-get over it.
Good pod. But slight rant, considering the final conversation topic:
I've pretty much always expected Biden to run again, and not consider stepping down. I do not understand why people keep thinking they can make him.
What I've especially never understood is those who try to make the case for Biden stepping down by pointing out all the bright, fresh, dynamic, young NON-KAMALA-HARRIS politicians out there.
As someone who's never been more than "Eh, she's fine" about Harris as a public figure, even I need to point out:
Kamala Harris is the first African-American and woman to be Vice President of the United States. That matters in a very concrete way, even if some people in their boredom, anxiety, and shallow mental state imagine it "doesn't".
If Biden stepped down, she would be the nominee.
In no universe is Harris going to get primaried out by Democrats because her "polls are bad", or because voters just kinda don't like her, or whatever. I point this out, and people deny it, for some reason. Usually emotionally, giving me all sorts of reasons why she can't beat Trump--which even if true, do not matter.
And on top of all that, this discussion doesn't matter. Biden is the nominee, because we think he's done a good job. Harris is his running mate, because she is an historic vice president and she hasn't done a bad job.
That's it. That's all of it. We have done nothing but sabotage ourselves to no end with this endless, panicky internal debate that solves nothing and accomplishes less.
Either democracy survives under Biden and Harris, or it dies after their administration. Full stop, end.
That can get people emotional and up against a wall. I get it. We need to channel that energy into trying to push them over the finish line, not hypothesize Hail Mary solutions concerning some Other Politician We Personally Like that will never happen. Otherwise we might as well roll over and let tyranny win.
I think it is clear that in 2020 Biden was not expecting to run for a second term, and he left a lot of his voters with the expectation that he would retire after one term. He has not explained why he changed his mind - but I guess that's normal for Biden, who rarely explains himself.
Given Biden's age, I hope somebody in the Democratic Party has put together a top secret backup plan for what to do if Biden has a catastrophic health event between now and November.
It definitely wasn’t clear because he never said that he wouldn’t run for reelection or would only be a one term president. That is clear. Everything else is people projecting
Meh. Disagree.
Biden allowed people to believe he might only run for one term, for sure. He left open the possibility, if nothing else to seal the deal with those squeamish about nominating a 78-year-old.
But there was no explicit promise there and no plan other than a vague sense of “passing the torch, eventually.” He definitely figured that if he ran for a second term, people would be okay with it, just like they seen to be with everyone else running for re-election at two billion years old in this town.
Bad assumption, I guess.
But again, I don’t think there is a secret plan for what happens if his health goes—I think it’s kinda generic. Kamala Harris takes his place.
If she didn’t, it would be kinda f’ed up—the first black woman vice president in history, passed over for the nomination.
Democrats are not willing to have that on their record. They fear that even more than the stain of losing to Trump, again—and they don’t buy the argument that you’ve got to pick between the two.
Am I the only one who hasn't memory-holed this?
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/11/biden-single-term-082129
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/474027-biden-indicates-he-will-only-serve-one-term-as-president-report/
Some reports from last year (NY Times, Bloomberg) suggest Biden was not planning to run until it became clear Trump would be the GOP nominee.
I read that hill article Bruce, it never said Biden wouldn’t run again. It was some “sources” whoever that might be. Biden never said he wasn’t going to run for reelection. That quote doesn’t exist. I understand people projected on him that he wouldn’t run again because they felt he is old (not a wrong opinion at all). However, it is categorically false that Biden said he wouldn’t run again. That quote doesn’t exist
Great episode on the issues. I found myself unexpectedly moved by Tom's sidebar reflection on his personal journey by the decades, with its vulnerability, elegance and wisdom. Oh, and that image of Rudy G with cigar and friends "looking like they're on their way to foreclose on an orphanage." Superb!!
"Law and order isn't for us; law and order is only for them."
At the risk of beatng two dead horses to death, Tim:
1. We've been trying to tell y'all this for decades.
2. I've been saying for years that sooner or later, all this is going to rebound back on White peeps, that the conservative cult was going to eventually touch something that White folks cared about.
And Voila! We are here.
Thanks for reformatting the transcript!
As to the Harris conundrum ... Kamala steps down for some reason (health, spend time w her family) and Obama runs in the VP slot (even though I know it won't happen).
Kamala could be promoted to AG after Garland is impeached!
I don't understand why Democrats keep trying to pick fights with themselves instead of focusing on trump.
Within any political party are different factions. Sometimes a faction puts its energy into fighting for intra-party dominance, and sometimes it puts its energy into competing with the opposing party. Trump himself might be the best example of this!
Same reason Monty Python mocked the left-of-center with the People's Front of Judea sketch.
More than anything, self-consciously smart people, and young smart people in particular, love to argue and debate and prove how right they are. They harbor the notion that the world cares how much you know, and how right you are about what you know. Even Aristotle had tart observations about that tendency.
Older people, and the less-smart (for different reasons), have long ago learned that the world does not care about that, and learn to work around it. It explains large amounts of why Republicans are so good at falling in line, while Democrats like to argue among themselves in public, under the notion that that, somehow, at this highly contingent moment, helps their cause.
Also dems actually care what their base thinks. Dems protesting at maga rallies is a death sentence
it's to me none of those things. The dem/progressives have constructed a set or rules or social fabric. They have tried to enforce this across the land. The maga people are the antithesis of this -- the dem/progressives won't fight them outside their rule box because that's breaking the rules. So they just go after each other. It's the boxer vs the alley cat problem, I guess.
What is the problem with the sound? Tim and Tom both sound like they've been sniffing helium. Great podcast, though.
The sound seems okay on my phone
Yes, the insult contest at the oversight committee was a sad commentary on the declining level of political debate blah blah blah, but it was also hilarious. If I were to hypothetically say that someone “had a bleach blonde bad built butch body”…would that be wrong? Raskin was trying not to pee his pants.
Note that he always has the good sense to wear dark suits. I would too, in his place.
No shade to Bill, but could we possibly make Tom a regular guest on the podcast? I really love his takes and insights.
Everybody reading this better hit the “Like” button on this, to maybe draw some attention to this idea, because I so badly want it to happen. Every time Tom Nichols is on, the moment it’s over I think “He needs to be on here more often. Like…once a week, minimum”.
Please tell Tom his cat article pushed me over the line for an Atlantic subscription.
It’s a great magazine.
For others who would like to do the same but balk at adding another subscription to their budget, check whether your local library has an electronic subscription you can access through an app, with your library card. My library gets one called Flipster. If you see/hear about an article you want to read in its entirety, check out the relevant issue and read it that way. I’ll definitely be looking for the Carla article.
Great idea, I will look into that!
Agreed!
It’s a really good magazine; you won’t regret it.
Same. 😀
The primary in 2020 was a train wreck of a nightmare until everyone just gave up and backed Biden, who was always the only realistic choice to win against trump. A large contingent of the Democratic Party does not think it’s cool to support an old white guy unless he’s such an extreme curmudgeon that he’s cool again (Sanders). Low polls for Biden among democratic voters is how that discontent is being expressed without a primary- a shadow primary of sorts. We need an inflection point to focus the democratic base - something that drives home the reality of the choice and its consequences. Another great interview from Tim Miller, even if his opinion of cats is misguided.
How many times have I read commenters in the times or post give their reason for voting as "can't vote [rich] old white guy" in so election somewhere USA. Silly me for thinking skin color wasn't supposed to be a criteria for anything...
I think white is only part of that statement. Old and rich is probably equal in the consideration of someone who says that.
I thought we weren't supposed to judge people by their traits but on their merits…
There is the ideal and then there is reality. It is't hypocritical to note that both are present at the same time.
I’m with Tom Nichols 100% on the question of Biden’s decision to run for another term. Not ideal, but no realistic alternative.
I think that would depend on how early Biden had announced his decision not to run. If it were early enough, other candidates could have run a strong primary, and a good candidate would likely have emerged. But, by the time people started talking about it, it was too late.
Bruce this just wasn’t ever in the cards.
Also walk me through what the Democratic primary would look like right now when Biden is president and the Democratic primary is down to 2 people. Just imagine the dysfunction with respect to Israel. Imagine Kamala is one of those 2 people and she is actively running against her presidents policies. How could the dems even imagine winning?
Parties hold primaries to vet and winnow candidates to choose their nominee all the time - or at least they did before the past decade. It gives candidates a chance to prove themselves to voters. Kamala Harris was unable to sell herself to voters in 2020. If she had to run in a 2024 primary, she would have had a second chance, and she would probably have learned from her mistakes in 2020. If not, she would have lost - and deservedly so.
Given the ambiguity and internal contradictions of so many of Biden's policies, including with respect to Gaza, just about any candidate could offer a more coherent vision. Or are you saying that Biden-like ambiguity and incoherence is the only way to keep the Democratic coalition together?
Bruce what are you going on about?
Who ran against Trump as a Republican in 2020? Who ran against Obama as a dem in 2012? Who ran against bush as a rep in 2004? Who ran against Clinton in 1996 as a dem? Who ran against Regan as a rep in 1984? I can do this forever. Can we please live in facts?
Incumbents never have a challenger and if they do (bush 1992, Carter 1980, and lbj in 1996) they lose.
I get it you don’t like Biden but let’s not make shit up
The whole premise here was that Biden was not running for a second term. If he had announced that early enough, there could have been a normal primary process.
No Bruce he was always going to run and he is running. I get you interpreted that he wouldn’t run but that’s obviously not true.
“Parties hold primaries to vet and winnow candidates to choose their nominee all the time - or at least they did before the past decade. It gives candidates a chance to prove themselves to voters.” There is no Democratic primary because we have a Democratic president running for re-elect. It’s pretty simple.
If we had a democratic primary because old Joe didn’t run we would have Trump as the next president. All I ask is you look at history or the current polls of other dems. It was jb versus Trump (50/50) or Trump. Your choice
The idea that Biden would not run for a second term was not my idiosyncratic personal view. It was the broad consensus. Biden hinted at it in numerous ways - e.g., describing himself as a "transitional figure". And the consistent word from inside Biden world is that he did not plan to run for a second term, and that he changed his mind only because of Trump. The evidence for this is all over the place. The notion that Biden was "always" going to run again is sheer revisionism.
Yes and no. Yes he said he was a transitional figure but this has nothing to do with one or two terms. He is literally going to be (let’s hope he wins) is the last from his generation to be president. I am not saying that you inferring is somehow just made out of whole cloth. He is a politician. He says what he needs people to hear when running in 2020 but he EXPLICITLY never said he wouldn’t run for a second term. Once he was elected he never even hinted that he wouldn’t run again. He used the exact language that Obama used before announcing (you cannot, legally, because of campaign finance rules, say that you are running without doing disclosure and presidents never disclose until the last minute so they can show how much money they have….fear me for I am powerful!!!).
Also to be fair to you, many people HOPED he wouldn’t run but nobody had any clue who would win (other than Kamala and no one wanted her) nor any agreement on who they wanted (trust me who you and I wanted…probably similar to the bulwark staff but nothing like what black, progressive or youth voters wanted)
I agree. There would be a big fight over the nominee. VP Harris would be the natural choice, but from what I have read, a lot of Dems are not behind her.
I wonder if that’s true. Even if we had a nominee, though, it’s too late IMO.
2028 will be very interesting. Dems have a strong bench; Republicans less so.
Among Republicans, even talking about a bench would be regarded as insubordination by Trump loyalists!
I think the idea re: lack of Republican bench is that 2028 elections don’t matter ;)
Why bother winning democratically when you can hold power through other means.
Fair point. Let’s hope that they don’t get the chance to use the other means.
That pause as the music swelled looked to me like the former president was waiting for a cue or for his lines like actors do sometimes during a rehearsal for a play. Shaking his head, twisting his mouth made me think he's waiting on something that wasn't coming. How much does he rely on the ear piece for someone backstage to prompt him on the scripted parts of the rallies? Perhaps a lot.
Re: the ladies of Congress Most of the time I would agree with Mr Nichols. However I've grown tired of people like MTG breaking the rules and norms and then hearing people who react to it get criticized for the way they react. MTG doesn't understand the rules of civil society, does not ever abide by them. Good grief she showed the photos of Hunter Biden in the House! She glories in her statements and boldness. And the chair of the committee didn't enforce any rules of civility.
The generation of Crockett and AOG also is different from our old folks version. Standing up for oneself is a virtue. "I won't allow you to talk to me that way" is the way they handle the situation and that's what happened here. I noticed none of the men on the committee stood up for Crockett either. (Yeah old school) Suddenly female Democrats are not passive little ladies taking abuse with a smile and they are criticized for it. Sometimes you just have to call out the behavior forcefully.
I tend to be where you are with respect to MTG.
The dems have been ignoring the freedom caucus for years and it’s just grown with not only members but power.
Not sure what the answer is when one party completely ignores norms and refuses to govern. Not sure there is a good solution
The rule *by* law as opposed to the rule *of* law is indeed a scary thing. The Abbott pardon and Trump's promises of J6th pardons are scary examples of this. And yes, the incentives are scary too and they're part of the authoritarian goal of rule *by* law.
Very excited the Bulwark is doing a live event in Denver in a month. Glad they chose the day before the scheduled NBA Championship Celtics parade in Boston so it doesn't conflict.
Writing from Minnesota, I see your gladness and I raise it. As it will be the TImberwolves celebrating their first championship. Either way, maybe by then, Tim will have recovered from the loss and we can discuss what happened and begin looking towards next season.
I agree it will be the Timberwolves first Western Conference Championship that they will celebrate because 2nd place isn't too bad for a team that's never gotten that far and has a bright future. They can watch the Celtics hang their 18th NBA Title banner after they beat Minnesota in 6. The only thing close will be whether Tatum or Brown gets the Bill Russell Trophy for finals MVP.
As a sad boy from Queens I resent this episode title! lol