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Jonathan Martin: Liz Cheney’s Political Awakening

August 12, 2022
Notes
Transcript

Liz Cheney is sacrificing her seat to get charges brought against Trump, the smoke’s clearing on the Mar-a-Lago search, and Democrats should hand in their politician cards if they can’t capitalize on the GOP attacking law enforcement. Jonathan Martin joins Charlie Sykes for the weekend pod.

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This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:08

    Welcome to the Bullework Podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. It is Friday. We usually have Tim Miller on, but Tim Miller’s out pushing his New York Times best selling books. Speaking of New York Times best selling books, we are joined today by Jonathan Martin, Senior Political Correspondent for The New York Times, a political analyst for CNN.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:26

    And co author of the recently published this will not pass Trump Biden and the battle for America’s future. Hell of a week, Jonathan, I mean, down was. It really was. You know, Charlie, I
  • Speaker 2
    0:00:40

    I wrote a piece for the Washington Post in the summer of two thousand six, which is It’s gonna be the ice age, you
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:47

    know, all the best of time.
  • Speaker 2
    0:00:49

    But it was a fun piece, though, talking about how there’s this myth in Washington that August is somehow a dead month, that nothing never happens in August, and that everybody’s at the beach in August, and, like, we’re all like parisians go into the Riviera. That is, like, historically, it’s so untrue, man. Like, there’s a amazing political history of consequential, even seismic events taking place in August, and here we go again. Yeah. I mean, I’ve ever I remember one of the my favorite history books was Barbara Tuphman’s The
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:21

    Guns of August. Mhmm. Something happens in in in in August. Alright. So I have a couple of things.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:26

    And if it’s
  • Speaker 2
    0:01:27

    not resigned in August, it goes on. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:28

    Right. Right. Well, a a couple of things I just need to get off my chest before we we dive into the news of the day. And of course, with with all the caveats that you and I are having this discussion at ten o’clock eastern time, although neither of us are in that time zone at the moment. And so by the time people listen to this, they may know a lot more about how nuclear Mar a Lago went, what’s going to happen with this search warrant and everything.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:50

    But I keep saying that nothing should shock us anymore. Not not you know, because, I mean, after what we’ve been through over the last six years, I have to say, though, last night on Fox News, Brian Kilmed, sitting in for Tucker Carlson, actually aired a clearly crudely photoshopped picture of the judge, the Jewish judge, who signed off on the search warrant at Mar a Lago the Photoshop picture of imposing his head over Jeffrey Epstein’s sitting on an airplane with Gilleen. Is it okay if you pass it Gilleen Maxwell? Yes. And she’s and she’s leaning over massaging his foot and he’s drinking something.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:30

    And it’s It’s like just when you think, like, there is no bottom, I mean, line liars lie. What what’s new? It’s like, here’s the judge who is facing all of these threats, death threats, his synagogue had to cancel an event because there were so many threats. And Fox News actually posts a Photoshop picture of this judge as Jeffrey Epstein on this, you know, with the Lolita Express and it’s like, Jonathan, I mean, again, am I naive to be shocked by this now? Yes.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:02

    Of course, I am.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:03

    A little bit. Yes.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:04

    Yeah. That’s right. And
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:05

    I it it’s depressing and troubling, but what it’s not to me is surprising. Yeah. You know, I I think it’s the market forces and that’s what’s driving them here and what’s driving a lot of the right wing media is they’re giving the audience what they think the audience want. But there’s not any thought given to us. But there there’s not any thought given to responsibility or priority here.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:32

    Let alone public safety when you do that. And I mean, we’re in an environment that’s a tinderbox now. You have somebody who shows up at the FBI field office in Cincinnati with body armor. And gets in a sort of, like, you know, wild west style, you know, shoot out in a cornfield outside Cincinnati and and eventually dies at the hands of law enforcement. I just don’t know how that kind of thing can take place and they’re not being reflection.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:04

    On part of everybody in the press.
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:06

    Yeah. I’m live reading the headline here, armed man who tried to breach FBI office, Ohio office, shot dead by police. CONfrontation comes as officials warn of increase in threats against federal agents after Mar a Lago raid. Right. I was struck by the way by all of the Republicans that tweeted out, you know, their their outrage about this whole incident and everything.
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:25

    Actually, they’re observing complete silence about it. But once again, it should be obvious if it has not been obvious for a long time now that toxic ideas have tragic consequences. Yep. And and yet despite this, as you described it as a Tinder box, everybody had ramped up Well, at least until yesterday afternoon. So let’s talk about this.
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:45

    And again, with the caveat that this is ten o’clock eastern time on Friday morning, we’ll be smarter later. So What’s going on with Merrick Garland? Because I’m thinking that the Orange God King did not see that coming, that Garland comes out and says, alright, we’re ready to release the the the the search warrant. He has a, you know, full throated defense of the FBI. And I I mean, my take on this was that Donald Trump was kind of counting on the asymmetry, the information asymmetry where he could go out and demigod and raise money, and stir things up in the Department of Justice would, you know, keep its head down.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:21

    So, Merrick Garland is basically saying, oh, I’m I’m calling your bluff. So it is put up or shut up Friday, isn’t it Jonathan?
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:28

    Yeah. No. It sure is. And do Trump put out statement late Thursday night saying, that, you know, he wants all the information where he’s now. We’ll see what that ultimately means.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:37

    I I would put a lot of stock in that until we actually see him turn over document or we see him stay out of court trying to block the release of document. I think that remains to be seen But look, no. I mean, clearly, Garland wants to be a political. He wants to keep this out of the court of public opinion. And I think that was the hope, obviously, the day of the raid and the day after is we just don’t talk about ongoing investigations.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:04

    I think it became clear. Yesterday that that wasn’t an option and that you had to address the public. Otherwise, you were letting all these conspiracy theories at worst or at best, you know, fair and responsible questions about what they were up to was sort of fill in the vacuum. So I think that’s why he acted. I think it was a recognition, Charlie, that you know, even the most a political of attorney generals, this kind of book your bookish former judge, you still have to do something to fill the gap and sort of be responsible to the public.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:45

    I think that was tough for him to do. You saw that statement he made was so short and so clipped. He’s not comfortable sort of engaging in the public fray in this fashion. That’s obviously not who he is. But I just don’t think they had a choice given the information flow and the speculation.
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:04

    And, frankly, the conspiracy monitoring was taking place last couple of days. So
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:09

    what do we know now about what the FBI was looking for and what they found. I mean, I’ve been saying all week, we we don’t know what they were looking for. We don’t know what they have found. The reporting over the last, what was it, twelve hours, eighteen hours, has been rather extraordinary. I mean, my default setting is, like, don’t get your hopes up, it may turn out to be disappointing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:28

    But, I mean, these headlines right now about nuclear documents, what do we know? And what do we not know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:34

    No. This is why on Monday night, I was so puzzled, Charlie, why? You know, even kind of non Trumpy Republicans were going out on a limb without knowing what exactly the facts were
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:49

    in
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:50

    this case, I just for the life of me couldn’t understand. You you know, why you wouldn’t just hang back and
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:59

    sort of
  • Speaker 2
    0:07:59

    let this emerge? Because it it’s Donald Trump. You just never know what underlying facts are. So to answer your question, look, I think the last twelve hours we’ve seen for the first time some significant reporting into what exactly was down a Mar a Lago that prompted this raid. I think the Washington Post reported and put a pretty large headline in the front pages of paper today that the material was related to nuclear programs.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:28

    Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:28

    I haven’t reported
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:29

    it it was highly classified, you know, even beyond top secret, and that that’s what prompted this, and that there there was a fear that if this got in the wrong hands, it could compromise national security. I think that does start to fill the puzzle in. In terms of why they would go to these extraordinary lengths, Charlie, towards material.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:53

    That was puzzled by by two things on Monday night. And number one, exactly what you said there. In fact, I I was so naive, once again, on Monday night, I was on one of the cable shows and was asked, well, how will Republicans react then I said, well, of course, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the Mago world will react with spittle Flex outrage and fury, but most Republicans will be smart enough to observed strategic silence. We’re wrong about that because they all jumped in that. That was surprising that uniformly they did, including Kevin McCarthy, and I wanna talk about him in a moment.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:23

    Kevin McCarthy, you actually threatened the Department of Justice, you know, with investigation. But the other thing, you know, the big question mark is, hey, it must have been a big freaking deal for the justice department to have gone so far as to have a an FBI raid of the president’s house. So what could they possibly have been looking for? And, you know, there’s all this speculation. Well, you know, it’s, you know, government pieces of paper that they hadn’t returned and, you know, was this disproportionate?
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:50

    You know, did did Merrick Garland basically crap the bed by by by overplaying his hand. So we will find out because, you know, on the scale of, like, you know, BFDs, nuclear stuff is at the top of the list. Right? I mean, I was trying to think just, theoretically, what could be bigger than that? But I say, you know, So that’s right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:12

    No. I mean, I look, I think that was the concern among a lot of anti Trump Republicans. And, frankly, Charlie, a lot of Democrats of oh, yeah. He’s he’s, you know, garland is a political, but this guy’s gotta have some political intel. He wouldn’t have rated more a lago.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:30

    Just to retrieve, you know, like, some some generic staff correspondence between Trump and Boris Johnson. Right. I I think, you know, that that was just below the surface of hope this guy’s got it right. You you heard from a lot of the kind of anti Trump forces. And I think this goes to the heart of what I was been almost amused by, which is this rhetoric from people who don’t follow politics that closely or are just partisans who aren’t totally on the level who were saying that, you know, Merrick, Ireland is sort of deleaving the this politicized apartment of justice, and he’s a partisan warrior out for a scalp, and he’s Biden’s Biden’s doberman.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:14

    Who’s trying to weaken Trump. It’s like, if you follow politics in Washington at all the last fourteen months, you know that the the criticism of Garland is precisely the opposite. It’s it’s from Democrats and frankly from some folks in congress, and even the Biden administration who grumble that he’s not aggressive enough. Right. He comes to hold hold in Trump accountable and pursuing January sixth related issues.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:42

    And then all of a sudden to hear folks on the other side of the spectrum say that he’s this sort of a latter day Roy Kone type
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:49

    figure that was just really hard to swear. So that’s why I’m I’m trying to figure out what is going on with Merrick Garland because he came into office, you know, and he came into office. I I I think with this idea that he was going to restore the traditions of the district department. Right? Make it very, very clear how, you know, a political it was, all of his instincts would go in that direction.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:10

    And, of course, that led to the anxiety you’re talking about, that that perhaps he was to milk toast, that there was, that he was the wrong man for the the job because he wasn’t going to be as aggressive as he needed to be. So as we sit here. Now in in in mid August, he has raided Donald Trump’s house. They are seizing the phones of Republican congressmen. We have grand jury investigations.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:36

    The pace of the Department of Justice investigations seem to be picking up. And I wonder whether or not you’re you’re seeing a slow gradual education of Merrick Garland, transformation of Merrick Garland, who’s basically saying, okay, This is the hand I have been dealt. This is not what I wanted to be, but this is the business I’m in now. And don’t don’t fuck with me or underestimate me because I’m gonna do this. Well, I mean, what do you think?
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:03

    I think it could be just the fact that he was pursuing on investigation
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:09

    all along, but was just doing it quietly and determined to avoid leaks and that now the investigation is coming to the surface, but it was happening all along. He’s just not somebody that was sort of eager for that to be known precisely because of the reaction that this is prompted this week. Look, I mean, I know for a fact that the people in that department are extremely careful about not seeming political, about this, you know, crossing every key dotting every eye because they don’t wanna trigger the kind of reaction that we’ve seen this week. And they wanna sort of, you know, portray themselves as paragons of integrity and not political at all. And obviously, that’s guided by Regardens’ instincts.
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:58

    And that has been their approach. But it’s hard to stay out of politics when you send agents into the former president’s home. I mean, that Okay? Like, that’s that. But there’s there’s no more keeping this investigation under the surface.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:12

    You know? That’s the that’s the that at that point, I’m sure, Garland wanted to sort of keep business as usual, but that only lasted two days. I mean, I I I I think yesterday’s announcement by by Garland was this such a concession that, yes, I cannot remain in this monastery. I’ve gotta come out and public, you know? Well, I mean, one of my concerns was that you’re seeing the same sort of pattern that we saw in
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:37

    the Mueller investigation where the asymmetry of Robert Mueller, who is bringing basically a fountain pen to a gunfight — Right. — and and was not able to deal with the kind of information political warfare that Donald Trump excels that. And — Right. — and and and was perhaps had too much faith in institutions, had too much faith in in the old way of doing things. And the America only seemed to come out of the same cloth and Oh, boy.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:00

    I I think yesterday was a recognition that that he can’t do that. So I I am fascinated to get your take on the Republican reaction. So let’s talk about Kevin McCarthy. What do you think is going on in Kevin McCarthy’s mind right now? Well, I was not surprised at all by the reaction of McCarthy
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:20

    and the reaction of McConnell this week because it reflects their their a, their impulses and b, their political assumptions, and we cover this a great deal on the book. Working hardy is a Trump lieutenant. He knows that Trump holds the keys to the kingdom for him because the house caucus is so chumpy. And he wants to keep Trump on his good side, which is why he was back at Mar a Lago last than a month after January sex trying to sort of heal that relationship. And so it’s not a surprise at all, but McCarthy, you know, within hours of this Marlago raid being disclosed is not calling for accountability on the person whose house is being rated but it’s going for accountability on the law enforcement officers led by Merrick Garland who are pursuing the investigation.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:11

    That is Kevin McCarthy. Okay? He he he is never gonna get cross wise with what he thinks his members want and his members like Trump, period, end of support. McConnell Charlie is, oh, wait. Wait.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:23

    Wait. Before we get into the McConnell. But if
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:25

    you look in McCarthy’s eyes, I’m trying to think of the movie where, you know, you become somebody else, but your soul is still there somewhere, like deep down and shriveled, you know, at the bottom of the well. Is there still a Kevin McCarthy who we we saw for, like, five minutes after January sixth? You had you — Yeah. — the tapes of him — Wow. — you know talking about it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:47

    And, of course, he lied about what he said in that you, Jonathan, and one of the great moments, political moments. He said, well, okay. Here’s the receipts. Here’s, you know, the fact that Kevin McCarthy lied about it. So is there any bit of that McCarthy?
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:59

    Like, down there in the cellar, crouching in the corner thinking, shit.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:04

    This No. So I think, you know, in McCarthy’s instinct as we did did capture on those. Tables. By the way, the audio version of the book is really cool. If the folks out there have, you you know, listen to books on Kindle or sort CD or audio tapes or what have you, we’ve in our first all those audio tapes that we obtained from before and after January sixth.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:24

    With the full text of the book itself. Oh. So for history junkies, it’s it’s kinda like the Knicks or the LBJ tapes. You can listen to the actual conversations in between the text of the book. Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:36

    It’s really neat. Oh, thanks. So Yeah. Look, I think McCarthy is a politically normal. I think when McCarthy thought for a brief minute after January six that Trump was damaged goods, it was gonna drag down the party.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:49

    Then he was ready to move on Trump. When it became clear a week ten days later that, oh, actually, my party doesn’t really care about January sixth. They still love Trump. Then he’s back to Trump. I look, I think but hard these instincts are entirely guided by what makes sense for him politically in the short term, And by the short term, I mean, like, the next ten minutes.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:09

    That’s who he is. Look, if Donald Trump tomorrow, you know, suddenly fell out a favor with the Republican voters and therefore the House GOP Conference. Then Kevin McCarthy but happily move on from Trump. It’s a political calculation. And with what, you know, McConnell, it’s also a political calculation.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:28

    McConnell’s caucus is less lumpy then McCarthy. McConnell has no regard for Trump. He doesn’t think anything of him. And I think McConnell is sort of eager to move on from Trump. But he doesn’t wanna prolong this kind of public pissing match with Trump because he thinks that that’s bad for the Republicans in bad for his chances to take back control of the senator.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:51

    So McConnell’s approach is just is just be quiet. And here we go. Once again, applying that that approach to the news of this week. What did McConnell do? He stayed quiet.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:01

    Yep. He didn’t say anything Monday night, he avoided questions Tuesday when he was touring the floodwaters parts in Eastern Kentucky. And then finally, he put out a paper statement was fairly restrained by sort of calling on garland to offer some insights as to the nature of the investigation. So I think Charlie, this week has really sort of summed up the the different approaches of those two leaders when it comes to drop. And also, we’re finding out now that his wife, Elaine
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:27

    Chow, has sat down, at some point, sat down with the January sixth committee. Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:32

    I mean, clearly, the January sixth committee is moving to get every possible participant they can to testify. Look, I think they’ve dealt with a lot of resistance that has slowly melted away — Mhmm. — over the course of these public hearings, and there’s more people who are willing to speak now, including McConnell’s wife, Elaine Chao, who, yes, sent this area of transportation under under Trump, and then, of course, resigned after January sixth. Interesting. Okay.
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:58

    So on the GOP reaction, leaving aside McArthur and McConnell, what do you make of the sudden enthusiasm for defund the FBI? Which strikes me as so bizarre on so many levels that I’m going to go into it. But one of the biggest cudgels that Republicans have wielded against Democrats was the stupid idea of defunding the police because, of course, we back the blue. We can’t defund the police. And, like, the the head snapping pivot to but wait, we want to defund the FBI.
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:31

    What? Well,
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:32

    two things strike me there. I mean, one is
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:37

    the
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:37

    degree to which Republican lawmakers have become and not all of them, but a lot of them have become so captive to an information silo that includes references and attacks and sort of even almost a sort of like language that is so unique to one element of their base it’s not even their entire base. And like, it certainly isn’t the general electorate. And the idea that you’re gonna be rewarded by attacking federal law enforcement officers with the electorate at large. It just shows how a lot of these these members have become sort of so deeply sunk into these ideological silos And I I don’t understand why they can’t see that that that makes little sense for the electorate at large. Some of them don’t live with the electorate at large because they just reflect their their hardcore primary voters.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:37

    But that’s one thing. The other thing, Charlie, that’s almost out of me, is what a gift this could be for Democrats to you know, besides inflation, their biggest challenge has been pushing back against the the the question of defund the police and crime as an issue overall. And here, you know, Republicans are throwing in your lap, a cudgel that you can wield against them when it comes to blunting that attack about being soft on crime. They’re literally attacking law enforcement, and For the life of me, I just I can’t understand why Democrats don’t see what a golden opportunity that is, especially after the attack. On the FBI office in Cincinnati.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:21

    My goodness. If you’re a Democrat and you can’t see the opportunity there, then, you know, turn in your your politician card, man. This may seem like a slight digression, but I just as we were having this conversation. I I was flashing
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:34

    back to the mid nineteen nineties after the bombing at Oklahoma the of the Oklahoma City federal building. And this was at a time when Bill Clinton’s popularity was really at a low point. And he pivoted on that and a lot of the right wing media was really put on the defensive as a result of that. You know, some of the criticism was unfair, but the point was made that this kind of rhetoric, this kind of politics of paranoia could be deadly. And that really was a turning point, I think, in the mid nineteen nineties, and you’re you’re absolutely right.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:10

    If if they can’t figure out a way to point out how reckless, how crazy, how seditious the Republicans have become, that would be a lost opportunity. Do you get a sense though? I I I always try to and I’m sure you’d as well try to sort through the wish casting and the spin from the reality. I mean, no. And there’s no question about it that this has been looking like it’s going to be a Republican year.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:31

    The midterms are not going well for Biden Biden’s numbers, you know, low. However, there is a discernible mood shift in the last week. So has has the environment shifted? Is this real or is it just apparent? What do you mean?
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:44

    Charlotte, I wanna give it some more time. That that that that may be a dodge, but I’m just I’m
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:51

    I’m not somebody who’s covered a lot of campaign. I’m a lot more interested to see where these numbers are in mid September, mid August. Talk to me after Labor Day at all. I’ll happily come back on the pod. We’ll we’ll tell Tim Miller to go and sell some more books and I can come back on.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:10

    Look, I just I really am curious as to how much this will hold up. But look, there’s there’s no question that Democrats always have a challenge. With voter mobilization in off of your elections because they rely on a coalition that is more of a patchwork of people who aren’t always super engaged with politics. And, boy, have they gotten a few issues to sort of mobilize. I think they are coalition.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:37

    So, you know, you can see how Democrats could close the gap this time. I’m just not totally convinced. Yet that it’s gonna happen. Yeah. By the way, what’s your degree?
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:47

    On that same tip. It’s one of the great elements of politics today and By great, I mean, striking. Right. Right. The reliance of the Democratic Party on Trump, it’s incredible.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:01

    Obviously, the party loves him and many view him as sort of a a threat to American democracy. But just from a raw political standpoint, Charlie, what the Democrats do without me? He he unifies their party. He mobilizes their voters. He drives small dollar fundraising.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:20

    You know, the Reliance were now on year seven. Where he he’s been — Amazing. — an incredible gift. Think about it. You know, Donald Trump has handed over Democrats control the House Senate and the presidency almost imminently?
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:36

    Yes. And we
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:36

    have been living in his world for seven years. Alright. So that’s easy. Why we called
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:42

    the book? This will not pass, Charlie. It’s available now on amazon dot com or your local bookstores. And The reason that we called it that is because we’re still living this this deeply polarized politics in this Trump dominated politics. And I think there was some expectation after he’d lost in twenty.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:02

    Okay. Well, that’s that. But my I
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:04

    don’t thought so. Yeah. No. I was actually just telling, you know, my my daughter was visiting from France this morning. I said, you know what?
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:11

    I I think everyone had geared their lives and their their commentary and everything around. Get through twenty twenty, and then you move into the post era, the post Trump era, and things will will work to something different, not to go back to normal. Right. And here we just have, like, extra time. It’s it’s it’s like, you know, the soccer match from hell where, you know, you think the the match is over and, you know, the game.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:32

    And you have that you have that bonus time that just goes on forever. Okay. So, Jonathan, what I really wanted to talk to you about today, Liz Cheney next Tuesday, she’s going to lose in in Wyoming. What’s interesting about it is that most congressmen live and die and breathe and eat in order to get reelected. She is really?
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:51

    It’s like, I can you get a marvelous? She has a different political animal, isn’t
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:56

    she? Yeah. Look, I think she is at peace with her choice. To effectively sacrifice her her house seat for the pursuit of of Donald Trump and of of trying to hold him accountable. And as she says, keep them away from the Oval Office once more.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:14

    But no, it is different than what we’re used to see, which is politicians making the accommodations they need to survive. And I actually asked her, Charlie, I said, when I interviewed her for this story, I said, you know, why wouldn’t you have been better to live to fight another day, you know, fight your tongue now and keep the platform so that you can sort of try to reform the party from within as a member of Congress, and she bristles at that and says that it was never an option for me. She could not bite her tongue. The threat of Trump is too much. Look, I think once she got on the January sixth committee and got into the information.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:51

    I I I think that became thoroughly hard driving force in public service. I think that is her entire focus much more so than her reelection. And I believe that that committee is gonna be active and engaged until the last possible minute in this Congress, and we’ll go as far as they can to poll Trump accountable. The start of my story includes a comment that Liz Cheney made in July in a private meeting of the one sixth committee And what she said, you know, we have done more than any other group of people — Yeah. — to keep Trump away from the overall statement.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:25

    We can’t let him paraphrase it. I think that’s what the enemy hits her today.
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:31

    So in your story, I think one of the more startling things was that her office is saying or implying or whatever. I don’t know how, you know, as strong it was, but that she’s been all but driven out of — Yeah. — of this Trump loving state in part because of death threats, Yeah. No. She’s she’s got a
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:47

    capital police details that have had it for almost a year now full time. And, you know, she she is concerned. She does have these threats, and then that has effectively stopped her from having a public schedule. She does not put out a schedule. She does a, you know, series of house parties that she does not advise that are invite only.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:04

    But by the way, are largely comprised of supporters. So she’s kinda preaching to the converted as is. But look, I that’s real. But I think even if it if she didn’t have those threads, I still think her focus would be more on the January sixth, but even it would be her reelection. I think that’s where her time and focus is right now.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:25

    I had Somebody told me that this person said that that they were struck just by how often Cheney’s Zoom background is her norm in Virginia home rather than her Wyoming home when she has these private zooms with the members of the one sixth committee. And by the way, that’s testament to just how much those guys have been on Zooms together on the one six pound, but they now know who is aware based on their Zoom background. But, no, she is, I think, eager to chase Donald Trump as far as necessary to ensure he does not returned to the Oval Office, and I think she she’s fine sacrificing her seat. No. I mean,
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:05

    you you can really tell, you know, that that that she and her father are a lot of folks to give here. I mean, as you mentioned in your piece, the the only when we were public and primary debate, you just basically told voters vote for somebody else if you want a politician who would violate the oath of office. And then, you know, Dick Cheney cuts that ad, which, you know, calls Trump, Howard represents the greatest threat to America in the history of the Republican. This is an estate that that Donald Trump won by seventy percent. Right?
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:32

    I mean, so she is doubling down on all of this stuff. So what is she going to do? I mean, you point out, she’s she does little does sweet talk of her president show. And I I’m, like, how does she think that would go? Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:45

    And, like, frankly, where
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:46

    did she run? Did she run as an independent or did she run as a Republican primary? Troy, I don’t think that she has thought through all these questions about her post Congressional life. My sense of her is that she’s still undergoing this political awakening. I think it’s bigger than Trump.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:03

    She didn’t really strike a comment to me that she’d rather serve with you know, these women like Nike, Cheryl, who was a navy helicopter pilot, who were serious people with impressive background who care about policy, even though their ideology is different than some of the more cartoonish sort of bomb throwing figures in the Republican caucus. So
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:23

    Like, I
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:23

    think was Cheney experiencing kind of this political awakening here that’s bigger than Trump? Much more so than she sort of you know, quietly and methodically plotting her post congressional five zero one c three that’s gonna, you know, be the shell group that takes down Trump or sets up her president or one. I don’t think she’s gotten that far again. I think she’s completely consumed by the one
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:48

    six people. Yeah. Using that platform to do everything she can to get some some charges against Trump. Why do you think she’s running for reelection as opposed to doing that?
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:59

    Yeah. Right. Why choose murder dumb when you could have just pulled out and not run it — Right. — inspect your time focusing on the one sixth committee. And the answer to that, Charlie, is that she’s a Cheney.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:10

    I I I think just somebody who does not wanna quit. She doesn’t wanna give Trump the pleasure of saying, he drove her out. She’d rather sort of meet her political fate and, you know, go down with the ship, get burned at the state, pick your pick your metaphor, but that’s who she is. That’s her political character. If you’ve ever spoken to her or sort of you know that she’s a lot like her dad in that sense.
  • Speaker 2
    0:32:38

    That’s just who they are. And I’m not terribly surprised. At all. I will say the this though, I mean, it’s it’s quite the end to a remarkable forty five year one between father and daughters in this which by the way, the it’s the least populated state in America. And, you know, they had a pretty remarkable run between a Dick Cheney and now Liz Cheney, both of which, by the way, she asked for the political junkies out there, were ones on track to be the leader of the house.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:10

    Dick Cheney, of course, that as the number two, to become secretary of defense. Charlie, if he had stayed, he would have been likely the new getting rich type figure, but he became secretary of defense and left before the GOP took back the house. And, of course, Liz Cheney became the third ranked Republican one term into her congressional career and could’ve also had a similar art. And instead now both are not gonna sort of reach that. That pinnacle and instead took very different turns in their their careers away from the house.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:41

    Both of them achieving fame for very different reasons. See, your your piece
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:45

    also reminded me of something that I had completely forgotten about. You wrote that a decade ago, Cheney had a contract to appear regularly on Fox News. Would use or purchase a guest host for Sean Hannity, by the way, think about that for a moment. Yeah. Guest host for Sean Hannity to present her unswerving conservative views and Savage former president Barack Obama and the Democrat.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:05

    She does not express regrets about creating an atmosphere that led to Trump, but she did acknowledge that a reflexive partisanship that I’ve been guilty of and noted that January sixth demonstrated how dangerous that is. So this is part of this transformation. Is that she’s been
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:21

    working No. Yeah. Yeah. I call more of an awakening. But, absolutely.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:24

    That’s what it is. She brought up Fox unprompted to me. So It’s obviously on her mind. And I think she knows now how unhealthy this far right ecosystem has been vis a vis this sort of rise of Trump being politics and this detachment from from the world that the rest of us live in. And she was pretty clear about that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:51

    And it’s obviously starting to do some reflection. But, yeah, it really does show just how much everything in the conservative orbit has changed the last decade. You know, and people like that thought that American politics was basically being played out between the forty yard lines to borrow a football. Term. And then it turns out that it wasn’t, and she was left out in the cold because of that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:17

    And I think is now trying to find her way ahead in a world that’s very different than the one that she brought in, and also the one, Farley, that she lived in as an adult. Whether working for
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:29

    her dad’s administration or on Fox News. So next Tuesday is going to be one of those again clarifying moments where the Republican Party rejects Liz Cheney and perhaps send Sarah
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:38

    Palin back
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:39

    to congress. Yeah. I haven’t been following the Alaska politics. It’s a little bit complicated there, but what do you think is Sarah Paling gonna win that primary next Tuesday? She is in
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:49

    a pretty strong position. And I think those two races obviously speak to Trump’s enduring role at their Republican Party, but they also say something else. And that is their Republican Party has a demand side issue as well. And by that, I mean, a lot of their voters, this is what they want. I mean, their
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:09

    primary
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:10

    electorate wants this kind of populist, eugelistic politics that is much more about opposition than it is about a sort of set of small government policy beliefs. That’s bigger than Trump. You know Trump? That tomorrow could fall into a sinkhole. I think there would still be these issues.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:27

    Oh, absolutely. No. No. No. It is the followership problem.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:30

    So the Republican
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:32

    House Caucus next year is really going to be something and imagine that, you know, the the rivalry between Lauren Barber, Marjorie Taylor Green and Sarah Panella. Who can be the craziest? And Kevin McCarthy, you know, ought to be careful what he wishes for. Right? Because, I mean, this is this great dream to be to being to speak is gonna
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:50

    be a shit show. John Vayner and Paul Lyon, your fellow Wisconsin, I — Mhmm. — had a difficult time curralling a much less lumpy conference. Than what Kevin McCarthy is gonna have on his hands next year. And and I think that’s gonna give Kevin a lot of challenges.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:09

    You know, we have Republicans that, you know, in our book, this will not pass who have real questions about whether McCarthy’s gonna be able to sort of lasso these folks and sort of keep things straight. And by the way, if democrats do keep control of the senate, and it’s only the GOP that has control of the house. That’s another opportunity for democrats, for president Biden to try to isolate the the sort of House of Republicans that, you know, if that’s the only chamber that the GOP
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:38

    controls. Yeah. No.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:39

    They can kind of portray them as as, you know, extremist potentially. There’s
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:43

    no way that Kevin McCarthy will keep the crazies in the box. That’s that is the problem. Jonathan Martin, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I appreciate it very much. Jonathan Martin is political reporter, political correspondent for the New York Times and co author of the best selling book.
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:57

    This will not pass Trump Biden in the battle for America’s future, Jonathan. Thank you so much for your time today. Thanks, Charlie. Appreciate it. Take care.
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:05

    And thank you all for listening to this weekend, Bullework Podcast. I’m Charlie. Site. I will be back on Tuesday. We will do this all over again.
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:20

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    0:38:31

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