Just Don’t Call it ‘Reality’ TV
Episode Notes
Transcript
On this week’s show, I’m joined by Arthur Smith, chairman of A. Smith and Co. Productions, the company behind long-running hits like Hell’s Kitchen and American Ninja Warrior. In addition to explaining why he shies away from the label “reality TV,” he’s here to talk about his career and his fascinating new book Reach: Hard Lessons and Learned Truths from a Lifetime in Television. Arthur has one of the most interesting careers of anyone I’ve ever spoken to: he got his start at the CBC, working his way up to the head of sports, before moving to Dick Clark’s production company in the States, then getting in on the ground floor at Fox Sports, and then founding A. Smith and Co. where he’s produced shows for the major networks, cable companies, and streamers alike. He’s seen every facet of the business over the last 40-some years and has great insights into how things have changed—and how they’ve stayed the same. If you learned something from this episode and think others would enjoy it, please share it with a friend!
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This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
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Welcome back to the Bulwark goes to Hollywood. My name is Sunny about culture editor at the Bulwark. And I’m very pleased to be joined today by Arthur Smith. Now Arthur Smith is the author of the new book Reach Hard Lessons and Learn Truths from a lifetime in television. And I’m really excited to have mister Smith on today because he has been at the forefront of a real revolution in television over these last decades now.
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I mean, you you have a real storied career here starting at the the CBC working working on up through through network TV in the States, the the introduction of Fox Sports net, all sorts of stuff. But then, Of course, the founding of your company, a Smith and Co, which I reckon it’s funny. I when I started reading the book, I was I recognize that label from many things. Kitchen nightmares is the big one for me because I’m huge Gordon Ramsay fan. But also all sorts of stuff, American Ninja Warrior which just had its fifteenth season start this this Monday.
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It’s it’s out there, people can check that out. But I’m rambling here. I I’m talking more than I like to just because I I’m I’m so excited. Mister Smith, thank you for being on the show today.
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My pleasure, Sunny, and I’m looking forward to this.
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So, as I said, you were at really at the
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forefront of a a real revolution in in television production. But you start your book in an interesting way. Which is to say that you don’t like how that revolution is often described. Can you explain to folks why you don’t like the term reality TV?
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Well, I think when people talk about reality TV, I think they all define it differently, you know, depending on the person. So often, when people think of reality television, they often think of the trashiest form of reality television that’s out there. And not about the mainstream television that’s out there. And so for me, if I if I had to define reality to the television, I would define it in two genres or or two sub genres, really, I should say. One being the unstructured reality television, which the real world was the pioneer and started and which became real housewives, which became the Kardashians, which are the Docu soaps of the Docu follows.
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And then the other category would be the structured reality, and that would be the formatted shows like Mark Burnett’s survivor, which led to Health Kitchen and the apprentice and but I feel like there’s a whole bunch of programming that I don’t really classify as reality television. And the best term that I can come up with is nonfiction television. And that to me is shows like American Idol, which is not really a reality show. It’s a variety show. And, you know, people can refer to let’s make a a dealer node deal, I should say, as as a reality show, it’s a game show.
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Game shows have been around for fifty years. Let’s give game shows respect. Let’s give that genre respect. So, you know, so I think there in within reality television, I really think there’s the the real world you know, tree, basically. And then I think there’s a survivor tree, and then things that flow out from that.
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And everything else to me belongs in the genres in which they were designed. Whether it’s a sports entertainment show, like American Ninja Warrior, whether it’s a music series or variety series like American Island, whether it’s a game show. Just call things for what they are. So but it’s, you know, it’s really funny because over the years, there is some negativity to the world reality television. Because when it first started, it it, you know, it had this connotation.
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And yes, there still exists trashiest reality television. But, you know, I get concerned when people like, lump it at all in one way. And a lot of times people will say, oh, I don’t watch reality television, and then I’ll start to list Shark Tank and the voice and and all these things that have now become part of the genre. And they go, oh, I watched that. And I go, okay.
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And then, you know, sometimes sometimes people call it alternative television. And that’s not it either because hey, let’s look at the top ten shows on television. They’re not alternative. They’re mainstream television. So so that’s why I get, like, you know, I’ve learned to not like the term reality television.
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And by the way, if you look at executives business cards at NBC, ABC, Fox, Netflix, none of them are the vice president of reality television. They’re all vice presidents of unscripted programming, vice presidents of alternative programming, vice president of nonfiction. So even they don’t like. So let’s let’s just let’s just go for but it’s fine. It’s fine.
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I I accept that, you know, my name has been associated with reality television. I’m proud of it. I’m proud of it. I gotta tell you now I’m rambling. But I gotta tell you, the interesting the interesting thing was that, you know, before I started my company twenty three years ago, I was at Fox Sports.
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I had a great job at Fox Sports. Now I’ve been an I’ve been a sports guy, I’ve been an entertainment guy, know, I got started very young as a producer in sports and somehow, which is all written in the book, Reach, that’s that’s that’s coming out or that’s already out. It’s been out for about a week now. But that, you know, I I sorry. Lost my train of thought.
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I went back to Canada for a sec. So when I was know, somehow I became head of CBC Sports when I was quite quite young. I was in my twenties, and Dick Clark had moved me to LA, and that’s a whole other story, got me my green card. And then eventually, I made my way back into sports. Not intentionally, it was just the way my life worked out.
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I actually moved to LA never thinking I’d work in sports again, but Anyway, I went back to I went back to sports, and I was at Fox Sports. And I I got to a point where I was missing the entertainment side and missing the variety side. And I knew one day I wanted to start up my own company, because I love everything. I love television so much. And And, you know, I had this long term deal at Fox Sports.
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And I took the biggest reach, biggest reach of my life and started my production company, And I had, you know, a wife and two young daughters, and I had this great job at Fox Sports that paid very well. And and I had, you know, security and everything else. And I left for my dream, really, with no income or nothing on the horizon. And at that time, the year two thousand, there wasn’t much reality television on or what is now called reality television. So I I went to set up a company that was going to be non fiction company.
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That was going to be everything that that I had done, which was variety shows, award shows, music shows, clip shows, entertain what what what would have been referred to as light entertainment shows. I mean, I was doing a show called when stars were kids at Dick Bulwark. Long before people called it reality television, I suppose they would call it now. So so my timing turned out to be pretty good. I was kind of lucky because a year and a half into my company, I was doing my my first big prime time network service was Paradise Hotel, which was a a big win for Fox in the summer of two thousand and two thousand and three.
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Maybe a little bit ahead of its time because it was so sexy that the advertisers wouldn’t buy in, and it didn’t come back for a second. Season. And, of course, love island and
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—
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Sure. — bachelor in paradise, I mean, very similar to Paris hotel. I’m just saying it’s very similar. So any yeah. We were ahead of our time, but we had a great run that summer, and and and it really started a a long Still going.
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Business with with Fox. You know, Fox has always been one of our big clients. But we work for everybody. We work for fifty Bulwark. So I love my I love my friends at all the networks.
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Yeah. Well, I mean, American Ninja, of course, is on NBC. And there’s a great there’s actually a great story in your book about how that show started, started at, you know, kind of a smaller cable network g four, which is kind of struggling. They had to show that a lot of people for them were watching, but they weren’t entirely sure what to do with. And fifteen years later, it’s, you know, corner stone of the n b c lineup, still still the the prime time lineup.
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It’s crazy. It’s crazy. It’s crazy when I think back and and and, you know yeah. I mean, I was happy to have a single, like not a home run with with g four. And you’re right.
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At the time, one of my colleagues from Fox Sports former colleagues from Foxport, Neil Tiles, is running g four. And he had this show called Sausuke from Japan, which was the only thing really getting a rating on his Bulwark. And he called me and he goes, maybe there’s an American version of it. And I and I said, let me see the tape. And I watched it.
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And what got me right away was the people who ran the course were Blumbers, dental hygienists, teachers. And they usually failed. And it was a celebration of the attempt. And when I saw that, I I thought of, like, my years doing Olympic Games. I did three Olympic games, and And and all the, you know, those profiles, the up and close profiles that you do when you’re doing Olympics where you get vested in people’s story, and then you watch them in a sport that you only watch every four years.
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And I said, if we can make people care about the people who run this course, then I think we have something. Never ever thinking that we were gonna end up on n b c. I mean, that was not what I I was saying. How could I even think about it? We were had to deal with g four.
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The only reason it happened, that it ended up on NBC was, luck, Comcast, which owned g four e bought NBC Universal. And we, Neil and I, went to NBC and said, hey, would you mind? Could you Could you just put in our put on our finale as an act of synergy to throw a spotlight on the show on g four? Never ever thinking that we’d end up on NBC. Why would we think that?
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So, I knew we had a good show. I figured, I knew the reach was more than just g four viewers, but it’s a g four show. But the show did so well that NBC called and and said, hey, maybe we should do some more. As it turned out, it was on a night that hell’s kitchen was off. So hell’s we had hell’s kitchen on Fox and ninja Warriors on NBC, and hell’s kitchen ran eight to ten, and ninja ran nine to eleven.
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And I wasn’t worried about hell’s, because hell’s was already, like, you know, one of the highest rated shows. And so Hills won the eight o’clock hour. Ninja came in second to Hell’s at the nine o’clock hour. But Ninja won the ten o’clock hour when it was on not against Hell’s Kitchen. And Paul Tuleggby, who was running NBC, you know, the unscripted division, I I’ve gotta choose my words carefully now all that I’ve said.
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And he said, mister Monday night, you just want every time period. And I said, oh, And I said, had so ninja did well. He goes, yeah. No. It did really well.
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He goes, maybe we should do more. And Paul had the foresight to see that there was something more that this was really a broader show And then we did more, and then eventually, NBC took it. But had Comcast not bought NBC, Universal, this would have never happened. And if we would have pitched an obstacle course show to NBC, I don’t know. I don’t think they would have bought it.
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But
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Well, and and an obstacle course show where most people fail as you say. I mean, the you know, that’s one of the fascinating things about American Ninja Warriors is that it is a It’s a show that you just watch people try and Listen them don’t make it. And that’s fine. People people are still very excited. And into it, how do you so when you’re looking at a show like this, you know, Hell’s kitchen has a winner at the end of the year.
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Hell’s kitchen, you know, it’s a elimination competition show. At the end of the year, there’s a winner. At the end of each night, there’s a winner. There’s, you know, somebody wins in the kitchen. Somebody somebody loses and somebody gets sent home.
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And it’s it’s, you know, a pretty straightforward competition show. But when you’re when you were, like, sitting down and thinking, okay, how do we make something like this that appeals to that’s going to appeal to the the broad the broadest swath of people possible. What are you looking for? From from just a producer standpoint. What are you thinking and and sitting here and saying, well, it needs this element.
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This doesn’t necessarily work. This is what we’re looking for.
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Well, you know, all through my life and maybe it’s because I’m surrounded by women. I have two daughters. I was grew up with two older sisters. I’m a very sensitive person. So I I always like television that makes me feel something.
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You know, when I was doing sports, I was always about I love doing the game. I’m a big sports fan. But I really like more of the story lines, and I like really more the setup. And and and and the openings and the the packages we did about the athletes. And so I’m always after television that makes you feel some.
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And as ninja has proven out, you don’t need a winner. You just need to care. You need to care about these people. So so much energy goes into those packages and those pieces that Saturday night live has made fun of. God bless them.
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I appreciate I appreciate it. But but, you know, because I believe that the charm of Ninja is that we do celebrate the attempt and it’s the only athletic competition that I know where the athletes root for each other. It’s very anti america. It’s the only it’s the only athletic competition where there is no winner. It’s the only athletic competition where men and women compete on the same obstacle course.
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It’s there’s no it’s not changed for the women. And and I love all that. And I think it’s, you know, there’s a ton of positive messaging And it’s become a broad family show. I hear this all the time from people that it is the show I sit down and watch with my family, and And then just come in all shapes and sizes and colors and genders and I mean, it’s just it’s for everybody. And And you, you know, you may most people aren’t going to be a quarterback in the Super Bowl or Syncapod at the Masters.
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But ninja is the show for for everybody. And, yes, we do have our elite ninjas who are amazing and phenomenal, and it’s incredible how good they got. The other interesting thing that’s happened with Ninja. This is like, who could see this one coming, is that it’s a sport now. It’s an actual sport that people kids now say, I’m not playing soccer, I’m doing ninja.
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And that’s that’s kinda crazy. And there’s ninja gyms all over the country, and there’s to birthday parties and etcetera etcetera. So this was a little show from Japan. And by the way, when we took it over I mean, Thanks. I mean, the Japanese rights holder, they like us a lot because we took their little show, and now the American show is seen in a hundred countries.
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And there’s twenty or so local versions, a ninja warrior UK, ninja warrior, Australia, and stuff like that. But it’s been such a pleasure. And for me, who’s a guy who couldn’t make up his mind whether he want to work in sports or entertainment, I get to do both in this one show. And and that’s that’s amazing.
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You mentioned you mentioned the the the rights holder, the original rights holder in Japan. And I I’d like to talk a little bit about this. Again, this know, it’s a it’s a business of Hollywood show, and I I I wanna help people understand how this works. So — Mhmm. — you know, with a show like American Ninja Warrior, there was an original Japanese version, or I believe American idol, same kind of thing.
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Right? The the
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Yep.
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There was
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a British
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British pop idol show. Or kitchen nightmares, which which actually had a very different form when it when it showed in England. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that Bulwark, just how the finances of that works. And and I’m gonna lead into this, but and how this kind of led you to kind of want to develop your own show that could then be sold around the world in in similar fashion. Because, you know, the billion dollar hit is the show that you can sell to a hundred countries.
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Right. Correct. The you know, you you make I’m sure you guys do okay on American Inter Warrior for producer’s fees and all that. But it’s, it is, you know, the real pot of gold is creating the syndicated worldwide thing.
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Sure. So, I mean, Listen, you know, it’s funny when I first came to America thirty something years ago. And I was coming from Canada. It was a little bit like coming from March. Like, from another plant.
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Because at the time, American buyers were really only focused on things that were happening in the US developed by American producers. And then along came survivor, which was based on foreign format and big brother, and and a number of other things, Hell’s Kitchen, which was based on another completely different show, but based on one. And they saw the power in these formats. That things that did well in the Netherlands or Israel or somewhere else or pop idol for for the UK example, could do well in the United States. And so, it actually, in some ways, There’s a period of time where people only people were only buying four masks from international.
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It was like, what? You can’t we can’t create it something in America, but that’s changed. Now I think we’re all we’re like we’re this global village now where ideas get exchanged and it’s all good, and everybody, you know, can be created here and sold there and vice versa, and and it happens, you know, happens that way. So for us, when when Neil, you know, when going back to Ninja Warrior, what happened was is, yes, there was a Japanese rights holder. But, you know, we welcome the challenge.
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And as Bruce, sometimes you owns things and sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you make a deal to own part of it. What we call back end rights, and you split it with them. So there’s depending on what the project is, depending on the success of it, depending on the timing, the network, etcetera, you know, there is a negotiation that goes on. Of course, it’s much better if you own everything.
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So but I I’m in the business of producing hits. I’m in the producing of of of that’s, you know, that’s what I’m all about. So I’m I’m good with wherever it comes from as long as I I feel confident that I that I can make it a hit. And the first time I saw ninja warrior, I said there’s something here. So I I I really believed it right away.
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I never anticipated it, like I said, being a network series, but I did see something special about the show, and I was I was excited about about doing it. Not necessarily the same thing happened when I heard of Gordon Ramsay at Hell’s kitchen, because I was not a foodie. And at the time in two thousand and four yeah. Two thousand and four, food in America was in a much different place than it is today. We’ve evolved.
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We have definitely evolved as a nation in terms of what our tastes are and what we eat and and our acceptance of other cuisines, and we become a nation of foodies. And social media has a lot to do with that as well. So the first time I had I had heard I Mike Durnell, let Fox, who was running the alternative reality, unscripted, nonfiction. I’m gonna use every word. At Fox said said to me he called me, and he said so there’s guy in the UK.
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His name is Gordon Ramsay. I who’s that? He’s a chef. Oh, okay. He’s a Michelin Sarcha.
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Uh-huh. And anyhow, he does the show Call tells Kitchen in the UK, and I’m not sure about the show, but you should you should watch the tape. I’m gonna go, Mike. It’s a food show on Bulwark television. I mean, it doesn’t Bulwark.
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You know, Markburn has tried the restaurants at a couple of seasons. There’s never really been a successful network, broadcast network food show. I said, I I I it’s my knee jerk reaction is, I I don’t I don’t get it. But Mike Durnell was a good buyer. And like I said, if he would have asked me to watch fire log burning, I would watch it just because he was Mike, and I would do anything for him.
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And anyhow, I watched the tape, and I Immediately, was mesmerized by Gordon. I did not like the show. I was I was it I it was a show with celebrities. It was a very different show than what we did. And it was it was lots two days live and live the tape, and it was slow.
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But I like the title, and I like Gordon. And I went to Mike, and I said, I like the title like Gordon. I said, if we do this, we have to make it broad, and we have to make something aspirational, and you know, and then I went on with this thing and I said, you know, gonna have two two two kitchens and two teams and you know, Gordon will be the taskmaster and will introduce Gordon to American audiences and etcetera, etcetera. And I began to describe what is now in hell’s kitchen. And Mike was amazing and supportive and everything else like that.
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And we built a restaurant. It’s crazy. We built a restaurant. And we shot this thing and, you know, I was making a show for me. Because I wanted to I wanted to make sure that it reached a broad audience.
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And and you don’t have to, you know, sometimes people say, oh, it’s I love your food show and I go. Not really a yes, it’s a food show, but it’s not really a food show. It’s a show about aspirations of people living their dream, about working with the greatest you know, the greatest person in that field, the goat of cooking, and how they work for it, and, you know, and how admirable they are. And And I said that’s so you don’t really have to be a foodie to enjoy the show. Now you foodies will enjoy the show, but you don’t have to be.
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And and then, you know, we finished the show. And the show at the time was so different than anything else. It sat on the shelf for six months. You know, Fox had it on the shelf for six months, and we were we were they were very nervous. It was funny.
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We were talking about the evolution of the genre. But around two thousand and four, two thousand and five, it was the beginning of a lot of failures in the genre. Because at the first, there was this whole novelty to the genre. But around two thousand four, two thousand and five, and Mike, who was like a hitmaker, He also had a couple of misses, which was very rare for Mike, but everybody was missing. And then all of a sudden, here we go, the genre is dead.
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This reality thing is a fad it’s over. And so Fox is very nervous about Gordon and the show because there never been anyone like Gordon on television, and there never been a show like this on television. Ron DeSantis it sat there. And I was like, Put it on. I know it’s good.
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I know it’s good. And then eventually, they said, okay, and you’re we’re putting you on next Monday or whatever, a few Mondays from now, whatever it was, and it was Memorial Day. So oh, oh, thank you for that. Thank you for the long Monday launch and that that’s that’s really giving me a great start. Anyhow, the show did the show did really well in spite of being Monday.
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And then didn’t lose a time period for I don’t know, four seasons that never did. And and in its third season was the number one show of all shows on television. The hell’s kitchen at the time was ahead of America’s God talent. And so Yeah. No.
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Sometimes you have to be convinced, but know, it’s funny. We’re talking about we just talked about American Nigeria in Health Kitchen. Both of those were reaches. You know, going back to the book, both of those were reaches. They were like, at the time, you know, the whole ninja story is a rage, and hells was a rage.
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And and and and, you know, in terms of you know, the timing and everything else like that. And it’s funny when I think of we were talking about the evolution of food, when I think about shows like hell’s kitchen, which is we’ve done we’ve produced our twenty second season. It’s not on it’s twenty second season hasn’t aired yet. It’ll air soon on Fox. And top chef, which twenty is twenty seasons of top chef, and everything that’s going on in social media.
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All these components, I think, are contributors to what has happened to food in this country. And so it’s it’s nice to see. And and by the way, I know I’m a foodie now. I am a foodie now.
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I think You you you wrote
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in you write in your book about how Gordon Ramsay was a little bit skeptical of you at first. You know, he he was not sold on you necessarily as the guy to make this show.
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No. No. He there was a point when I was talking and and rambling like I’m doing now and telling him about all the things that I thought the show would be. And he just looked at me and he says, you in in Gordon’s charming way, I’ll I’ll leave out a few f bombs. He just said, you know absolutely nothing about food.
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Right? And I go, what do you say to that? And I just said, I do know something about making television, and you’re gonna teach me, and we’re gonna work together. And he you know, he’s so great. He gave me a high you know, like, he gave me a high five right after that.
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But know, he just it was just part of Gordon’s charm. Like, he’ll he’ll challenge you. I mean, he challenges you. He’s a perfectionist. He’s he’s an amazing, amazing human being.
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And we sat down, and I I said to him, whatever we do is gonna be purposeful. We’re not, you know, yes, I’m a showman, but I’m not gonna do anything that doesn’t you know, fall into the criteria of what a great chef would be. So I said, let’s just talk it up. Let’s let’s go through it. And we literally sat there and said, What makes a great chef?
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And you go, leadership, creativity, palette. And we listened. I said, I guarantee you every challenge. So maybe a little show before we get to the challenge. But once we get to the challenge, it’s gonna be testing that.
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And we may do the challenge in an interesting way, but it will test those things. And it’s a real, you know, When you’re on the set of Health Kitchen, it’s it’s a real restaurant. The cameras it’s it’s our Truman Show. We have eighty cameras, seventy three robotic seven handheld. The the producers are never seen.
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You know, it’s really Gordon in this world with these chefs. And that way, it’d be you know, I wanted the most authentic competition that we could possibly have. And and the chefs who come there is funny how I talked about ninja how it evolved into the real world. And with hell, chefs have it on their resume that they were on Health Kitchen season seven or season nine. It’s it it is school.
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We don’t show as much of the training that actually happens. It’s not a miracle that they get better. They get better because there are times when Gordon will come to me and he goes, hey, you gotta leave us alone for four hours. We’re working today training. I said, okay.
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We’re following you. And and he wants them to get better. His, you know, his intentions are even though it’s a television show, Gordon is still the same person. He’s still this great chef who wants other people to race their game and and and he’s great at it.
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Well, I mean, hell’s kitchen in particular feels like I mean, it feels almost like the TV version of your I of your concept of reaching. Right? Like, you have a bunch of people who if we’re being totally honest, probably don’t deserve to be in the kitchen with Gordon Ramsay at least when they start. Like, they’re they’re not they’re not completely inexperienced, but they’re also, you know, not necessarily Michelin large chefs.
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Yep.
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And and through through the show, they learn they get better. They create they create opportunities for themselves and and everybody else which leads me to I I I, you know, I feel bad because I haven’t actually asked you to talk about your book here as much as I should have. I’m asking you to tell stories from your book. But your your book is about this idea of of of taking a taking taking a chance on yourself and and reaching for something better. Tell tell folks about your book and kind of why you wanted to write it to to let folks know how how how to better their situations?
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Well, you know, I I have been thinking about writing this book for for for some time. But I got I’ve been busy. So I’ve but there was there was I suppose I was kind of subconsciously writing it for four or five years. Because when I sat down to write it, I couldn’t stop. And the first weekend, I wrote eighty five pages in a weekend, and I slept two hours on over a Saturday night.
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My wife thought I was out of my mind. They came out of sun Sunday night, I walked out of the room with my hair standing up and, like, with this crazed look on my face, unshaven. And what what is wrong with you? And I started to read. And she goes, what is this?
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And I go, I think it’s a book. And and then
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As a writer, we’ve all been there. I can I can assure you? That’s a that’s a that’s a that’s a regular face that our wives or spouses see.
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Yeah. You know the look. You know that look. So and and I realized that, you know, listen, I wanted to write a a book that that did some that did some good, that had some positive messaging. And so I say that it’s a memoir with a purpose.
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And the purpose is to show the power of reach. When you reach, you find out what you’re capable of. When you reach, you you learn the difference between a pipe dream and what you haven’t dared to try just yet. And I believe we make our good fortune. I believe that we have to put ourselves out there.
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Now, you can get lucky and things can happen to you. But I think you need to step forward everything that’s ever happened to me. Most of the things that happened to me, I should be careful. Most of the things that happened to me is because I I put my neck on. I step forward.
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My my first break at CBC Sports was because I did something really ignorant, the story you read about in the book, but I did something really ignorant that turned out to be something by stalking an executive you you shouldn’t do. You should never do that. But I but I didn’t know any better, so I did. But I but I was reaching. You know, when I produced the Olympics at twenty four, I was reaching.
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When I became head of CBC Sports, all the things that have happened to me and and moving to LA to work with Dick Clark, I I’d spent all my life in sports, and I was gonna go produce entertainment shows in a war chest. I was reaching again. I’ve talked about the reach from Fox Sports when I had a secure job but I knew I wanted to do other things. And, you know, I was just hoping to make a living because I was, you know, starting a company with no no income in sight. So And it all started for me when I was quite young, and I’m grateful that I had this moment.
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I didn’t know what that moment was until I started writing the book. And I realized that something happened to me when I was very young, nine years old, that something happened to me, that changed my life. It subconsciously taught me that when I put myself out there, I at least put myself, you know, gave gave myself a chance to accomplish something and have success. And I would have never known that in that particular situation, I was forced forced to go I I was forced to put myself out there. So from that thing on and the readers will have to read that story.
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We’re gonna tease something. We’re not gonna do the whole book though. Okay. But but, you know, But, you know, it it it changed it changed the course of my life. And then I became this personally, I grew up as the shiest, I hard to believe, Sonny.
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I know. Because I haven’t shut up. But I grew up as the shyest kid, like, extremely shy, and my parents were actually worried about me and we moved from one neighborhood to another, and it kind of, like, rocked my world and was traumatizing to me. And so this shift in who I was as a person changed when I was nine years old, And and like I said, it was an incident, but I didn’t you’re nine years old. You’re not thinking of things like that.
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But when I when I take every step and I just just put my life and rewind. And I look back and I say, how did this all happen? How did I become this guy who who’s always reaching and always trying and everything else like that, and and it goes back to that. It really does. And and I can I can see the through line of it?
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And, you know, I am so grateful for for the life that I have. And I grew up with a father who was the greatest man I’ll know, the greatest man I’ll ever know, who was big message to me was gratitude. And and he he was he was amazing. He was grateful for everything. He woke up happy, went to bed happy, was very funny, and and just just an amazing father.
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And And, you know, so so I I I’m always trying to think about things that I could do. In this chapter of my life, I want to mentor more, I want to work more. That’s the great thing about having a production company as I work with a lot of young people, and and and we’ve seen a lot of young people go from runner to producer, an executive producer. Some of them go on the other side to become a network buyer who used to work for us. Been doing it for twenty three years.
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And in the unscripted business, we’re one of the older companies, and I get so much joy from that. I realized that so much of my joy during the course of the day is usually when there’s when I’m involved in some mentoring working with. And and so I consider this chapter, kind of a new chapter in my life. I’m still continuing to make shows and everything like that, but I really wanted to do that. Further to that, all the proceeds from the from the book are going to the Reach Foundation, which I set up, you know, a few weeks ago.
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And the Reach Foundation is is a is a charitable organization that donates money to a number of charities, all all of those charities lift people up in some way so that they can reach in their own lives. And so so when you’re buying the book, you’re doing a good thing. You’re giving money to charity, which is good. But you’re also getting some really good stories. But but I but I did it because, you know, like I said, And the other thing, and and not to not, you know, sorry for this, but not not to leave my mom out because one of the things I I believe in and is that it’s much easier to reach when you’re reaching from a strong foundation.
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And that’s so important and and anything that you do. And for me, it was my parents. And I had great parents, and they were supportive in spite of their crazy youngest child. And and and that that goes a that goes a long way. Now I was blessed with great parents.
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Not everybody has that. But that doesn’t mean you can’t build your foundation based on something else, whether it’s friends, whether it’s siblings, or whatever. But we all it is much easier, you know, that I talk about, you know, the the you know, if you’re standing on a sturdy table and you’re reaching for something, it’s much easier to reach. You’re standing on a wobbly table because, you know, it’s much harder to do that. And so that’s, you know, it’s not impossible.
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It’s just harder.
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Yeah. Yeah. It again, the the the book, the title is Reach. Arthur Smith, you you fight at Amazon, everywhere else, books are sold. There there are a bunch of great stories in here.
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We won’t tell them all, as you say, you wanna leave some leave some for the folks. But, you know, going to a basketball game with magic Johnson in a very very unique Looking for a very unique ask. Again, I won’t I won’t spoil the here. That was that that’s a great story. All sorts of stuff.
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There there was there was one thing I wanted to talk about a little bit because again, it gets kind of to the business of Hollywood and where things are. In this in this incredibly diverse fractured media landscape, there there was one meeting and it’s it’s really short part of your book. So I don’t feel like I’m spoiling too much hair. Okay. But there was a there’s this moment where your your your taking over at, I guess, starting Fox Sports, the the Fox Sports net, and talking about how to kind of capture the audience in Rupert Murdoch, who obviously is, you know, head of fuck and, you know, owns newspapers, and media companies, news organizations, is talking about the importance of football as a singular thing that people will come to.
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I mean, I’m I’m fascinated to get your perspective on this as somebody who has kind of again lived through this huge evolution and whose beginning was in sports really. I mean, you’re you’re a sports guy first and and we have seen the landscape fracture into a billion different channels. And yet, there are still the NFL. There’s the Olympics. You know, even there’s major league baseball, NBA, whatever.
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But you have these big focal points Is that the future of a successful network media company? Or are those two starting to fracture in ways that people didn’t quite expect?
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Sports is in a whole other category and football for that matter is in a whole other category. So Rupert Rupert had tremendous foresight. And and, you know, even it way back in the nineties, you know, when he acquired the rights to the NFL. And overbid in quotations because he didn’t really. Everybody he he outbid c b s by three or four hundred million dollars.
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Everybody thought he was crazy. He was gonna lose money. As it turned out, he made a ton of money because the asset value of his stations, the Fox stations, broo tremendously. And he built the Fox Bulwark on the back of that. So that was brilliant.
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But he also said that in a in a in a day and age, somewhere down the road, there will be five hundred channels. There will be all this. And football will still have the same audience. And he’s right. Super Bowl this year was the second or third highest rated Super Bowl of All time.
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And And in spite of all this fragmentation, it cuts through and part of it is the live, part of it is still like, you know, people are longing for that gathering together and sports provides that. And I think every broadcast network has to be in live sports to a degree. And most of them are in football. Let’s think about it. Yeah?
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Yeah. I mean, CBS, ABC, NBC Fox, they all love football.
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Yeah.
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There’s a reason for that. The highest rated show on Bulwark television every year is Sunday night football. And, you know, it’s You know, it’s interesting. I I I think that you you know, some of this you can’t just create and say, oh, we’re gonna do everything live and it’s gonna work. And But there are certain things that that I know you wanna build a show on network television that creates buzz that people are talking about, that people watch you know, on that night.
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And, you know, certain shows can do that. And and I believe that that’s that’s where they need to focus. That you you create programming that is so good that it becomes a week to week watch because that’s still the business that you’re in. And it’s difficult. It’s extremely difficult because we’ve all become network programmers.
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We program what we wanna watch. We sit there, you know, when I was little, I would go through the TV guide, you know, when I get it at the beginning of the week, and I would chart out what I was gonna watch. And it was, like, How am I gonna do this? How am I gonna watch this if it’s on that time or what? Like and I had I had to make tough decisions.
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And in spite of my, you know, spreadsheets and everything else like that, you know. And then then, thankfully, when the greatest gift my wife has ever gotten me in thirty five years of marriage was Tivo. It was the best gift I ever got for like a TV holic. Yes. I’m Arthur Smith, and I’m a TV holic.
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And so, you know, that was the greatest that was the greatest gift she you know, she she gave me. And but I think now with with with streaming and binging and programming being available, we all program our own Bulwark. You know, with so It’s a it’s it’s a tough battle for the networks. It’s a tough battle, but I still believe that there’s, you know, there you just have to work harder at it and you have to think about things that register and that things things that are so good that you wait, wait to wait. I know there’s certain shows on television, even though they’re on streamers, they they don’t release them right away.
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I’m a big fan of succession. I watched it every Sunday as soon as I could. So sometimes they didn’t watch it exactly when it was on, but I almost watched it was live. So if that can happen there, And it and it and I know what happens on other network programming, but it can it can still happen. And it’s it’s a it’s a harder game and You know, right now, I think we’re there is a recalibration of the industry going on.
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You know, there’s a lot of things going on that are shaking up our industry. Not the least, you know, the the the rider strike, which is in in the middle of there was a recalibration going on before the rider strike was going on. So there’s gonna be some shifting and some changing, but you have to, you know, you have to think about what really registers. And, you know, much in the same way that, like, when we when we’re thinking of selling something to a streamer, it’s a different type of thing than when we’re selling something to a broadcast network. To me, when I’m selling something to a streamer, I’m thinking about can they generate heat?
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Can they generate subscribers where people will actually you love this so much that it helps their subscription. I’m thinking less about ratings and they’re not the same thing. Because what you watch and what you pay for are different things. It’s kinda like the old days when HBO first started. You know, HBO, it wasn’t TV.
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It was HBO. Remember that slogan? So, you know, they they had they had things on there that were so good that people were willing to pay whatever it was, you know, whatever the monthly fee was. And that included you know, Mike, they had to deal with Mike Tyson. They had, you know, the the Larry Sanders show with Gary Chandler and Dream on and and and and the Sopanos.
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And six feet under, and they were so such great content that people, you know, were we’re willing to pay. And that’s it’s a higher bar, and it’s a different standard. And you know, sometimes If you have a really passionate audience about Show, even though the numbers aren’t that big from a broadcast number, you can sell it to a you can sell it to a streamer because that audience will just go. Sure. And so it’s in the sales mentality and in the programming mentality, you have to think about who are our who are our viewers?
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Or who are our subscribers? And how do we get to them? And, yeah, it’s it’s quite it’s quite interesting. And I’ve been around long enough to as you’ve quickly pointed out how old are you? No.
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As I’ve been around since now,
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I’m I’m all good.
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I’m all good. Not really. I’m around I’ve been around long enough that that that I’ve seen in it. It’s been very interesting to me, because I I remember when we only had a few channels, and they were black and white. And I remember color TV.
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Man do I sound old? Sound them? Well, if
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if you wanna be a mentor, you’re gonna it’s gonna you’re gonna sound a little older when you’re telling telling folks how to No. I I so I you mentioned the writer’s strike. I I actually I wanted to talk about this just a little bit because I you know, I’ve I’ve talked to a lot of writers and and how they feel about things. I I’m curious. You say there’s a kind of a paradigm shift right now in the middle of or or, you know, what’s happening with with that.
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Are you guys expecting more series orders? I mean, I’m I’m curious from your how that impacts your end of the business.
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You know, for us honestly, it’s business as usual. We’re always developing. We’re always pitching. And and I don’t believe in pitching too often because I don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s realistic to walk into a network office if you’ve been in there the day before saying, this is the greatest idea. So you can only claim that every so often.
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Maybe once a week, but not every day. Stowing that was so no. I’m kidding. So I mean, you really so for us, it’s business, usual. Well, like I said, we’re always developing and always pitching and everything else like that.
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I haven’t seen, like, a rush of business because of the because of the writer’s strike. And I really want this thing to get solved as fast as possible. I don’t like what it’s doing to you know, what it’s doing to our business. I I just I just wish that and I know there’s some deal that there’s some win win deal that that that’s happened. Clearly, the things have changed for the for the writers.
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And I I I yeah. I get it. I understand. You know, what’s happened with smaller orders, which I’m sure you’ve covered in your podcast smaller orders and lack of back end and all those things that weren’t issues before, but that are now real issues now. And and and people are making less.
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And that has to be fixed. It has to be straightened out. And and I know the studios are going through a difficult time, and they have to get their act. And together. And, yes, there’s pressures on cost and they have to get their act together.
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So at some point, this Will Saletan. But I but Listen. The truth of the matter is, it is if you’re an unscripted producer, you’re running a production company. So what? You pick up an extra show.
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So in the scheme of things, you may get one less order down the road. I just I just really want us I want the business to be back back together and have the normal flow of things. And and I know it will be someday. I just hope it’s soon. Yeah.
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I mean, there’s no, I think, the last twenty some years have shown that there’s no reason that reality, apologies potential reality alternative whatever, can’t can’t coexist with scripted. I mean, that seems to seems to be working out especially with the explosion of channels and networks. I mean, you mentioned you touched on this very briefly, but I’m I am I am, again, very curious about this new change and dynamic in terms of, you know, the new the new distribution models as much as ever anything else. Because, you know, when you’re making a show on network TV where one episode comes out a week and it’s a competition style show or whatever. It’s very different than something like the floor’s lava which my kids love.
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Kids love floors lava. They’re they’re watching it all the time, but they watch it out of order. It doesn’t — Right. — matter to them. They’ll they’ll watch this episode or that episode.
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How does that does that change how you are thinking when you when you pitch it or when you produce it or or elsewhere? Are you just like, alright. This is the show. Let’s let’s just do it this way.
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No. We’re we’re we’re we’re thinking very carefully about about you know, once again, it comes back to the audience, which is ultimately what’s best for their business or subscribers. So no. Everything is, when we develop a show, we really sit down and think about who it’s right for, you know. And and that has and that you know, you’re tailoring your shows to to the to the audience to the audience, you know.
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So it’s very much in our thinking. And sometimes, you develop a show that only works for one network or one platform because of who they are or what point they are in their history. So yeah, it’s, you know, listen, there’s we’re constantly talking to them about what’s working and we know what’s working to a degree. And you know what I’m getting at. And
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There’s a smile there. No.
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I is this are do you guys get frustrated by the lack
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of information, data, whatever. Do you do you wish you had that that whole tranche to really sift through and be like, this is what’s working. This isn’t.
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Well, more information is better, obviously. And and and it is getting better. I mean, you know, when I we first started doing things for some of the streamers, and I won’t mention which ones. But you know, it was harder to get information. It was harder to understand the algorithms that they were working with.
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But now now they’re pretty good. You know, we we do get you know, weekly, monthly reports and stuff like that, and and you get a pretty good sense of it. I’m laughing because I know it’s a it’s a common thing you know, that that comes up. So because there was a period of time when it was like, your show’s not doing what does that mean? And so but I think I think that’s I think that’s more years ago than than what’s what’s happening right now.
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But but like I said, sometimes you you have something that only works at one place and I’m okay with that if it’s the right show. Like, a lot of times, producers well, I’m not gonna develop this because it could only work at one place. I go, well, if it’s the right thing, then you have a better chance of selling it, you know, if it’s a great idea for one place and maybe better chance of selling it, then a good idea works for a number of places. And I believe good ideas don’t sell. I have the saying that I say around the office, and this is to make a point.
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I say good ideas don’t sell, and great shows of a hard time selling. It’s hard to sell shows. Very, very difficult. So unless you’re walking into that pitch or getting on that zoom, which we do more frequently, more frequently than I like, because I’d rather pitch in person. But The unless you’re, like I said, doing your pitch with, oh my god, this is in my bones.
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This is so exciting. I’m so passionate about. Unless you have that feeling, you should not be pitching the show. That’s that’s that’s and and by the way, even when you have that, it’s hard to sell a show. Just as, you know, the big thing with streaming right now, and you can see it is and they know it’s and this is, you know, this is kind this is not news.
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But the art shows work a lot better on streaming than the Stangolones. They just do.
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Mhmm.
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You know, not not counting Flores Lava, which which was fun to do, and we’re proud of it, and had a few seasons, and kids watch it again, and they watch them out of order. And that works because of who the audience says it’s a family audience. But most of the stuff that works on Netflix, you know, the love is blind and things like that are things without our arc because it’s the same bingy kind of thing. It gets you to watch one and then another and then another because it’s an art show. That’s not news, but but you can see how that developed over time.
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Netflix have, you know, Even even there, you know, things like selling sunset, that’s that’s an arc show. It’s a it And and you but but it’s evolved. And and it’s it’s the, you know, Netflix is all about and others are are about completion. It’s not just about did you watch the show or did you watch the entire series? Did you get to the end of the series?
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And you you have to sub something that tease as well or that hooks you from one episode to another. And it’s not surprising and that the shows that are working the best on Netflix are are things that are art. And that’s that’s where their focus is.
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Alright. That was that was pretty much everything I wanted That was everything I wanted to to touch on here. But I always like to close these interviews by asking if there’s anything I should have asked, if there’s anything you think folks should know either about your book or the state of the industry? I mean, whatever whatever I failed to ask that you think folks should know. What was that?
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We covered a lot of ground, and I rambled a lot, and I think we got most of it. I I I hope that our the future of television for me or the future of content is networks taking risks. That to me is the best the best thing. I believe we find our best hits or the biggest surprises or the most successful franchises often come when we take chances. And there’s a tendency to do things that are derivative or it’s a tendency to do copycat shows.
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And my big push is always take a risk, take a chance. That’s what Hell’s Kitchen was, that’s what Ninja Warriors was, that’s what Mass Singer was, you know? But that’s what Seinfeld was. That was all in the family. And so We see this pattern of these breakthrough shows that we’re all big risk that every so often, people get conservative.
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And for people get nervous. And I I I just hope that our industry continues to take chances. That’s what I and that’s what I think the audience wants. I think the audience wants wants a fresh point of view. The other thing as it relates to my my book is that Listen, there was a collection of stories that are in there, magic Johnson, you you brought up, and there’s a story with Paul Allen and a crazy night with Marlon Brando.
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That that’s nuts and and what Dwayne Johnson is really like and what Gordon Ramsay’s really like and Simon Cowell and all these great people and some great everyday people who aren’t famous that are in the book. But that but but I’m really hoping the book inspires people. It’s really, like, I chose the stories not because these are my biggest hits or these are my funniest stories, but there within each of them, there was a message. And and I I’m I’m really hoping it inspires people to take chances, and and and, you know, does some good in the world and but thank you for the time. It’s been amazing.
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Absolutely. Again, the name of the book is reach hard lessons and learn truths from a lifetime in television. I’ve been speaking to Arthur Smith, who again just has has has a really interesting and varied career through throughout, you know, all all sorts of types of TV, eras of I mean, I I I learned a lot reading the book, which is the the nicest thing I could say about any any book that I read is if I learned something I’m I’m I feel like I’ve come out ahead of the game here. So it was It was a it’s a fun read available at Amazon now and you’re doing good. Again, you’re helping a charity.
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When you when you buy a copy, proceeds going right back into the community. So that is great. Arthur, thanks for being on the show today. I really appreciate it.
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Thank you, sunny.
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Alright. My name is Sunny Bunch. I’m the culture editor at the Bulwark Coast of Hollywood, and I’m I We’ll see you again next week.
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Movies, TV shows, books, podcasts, and more. It’s what women binge with Melissa Joanhart and her friend Amanda Lee. If I’m gonna be an actress one day, which I don’t think I will. I wanna be on Wannabe, doesn’t everybody wanna be at some point? I don’t know.
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