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The Counteroffensive Against Trump—and Putin

May 10, 2023
Notes
Transcript

Turns out that being a star doesn’t allow you to get away with sexual assault after all. The GOP still has an ‘Access Hollywood’ choice, but now there’s a $5 million jury verdict. Plus, Tim Mak joins Charlie Sykes from Ukraine to discuss his reporting on life during wartime, beyond “the booms and the bangs.”

show notes:

https://counteroffensive.substack.com/

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This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:09

    Welcome to the Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. So how’s your day going?
  • Speaker 2
    0:00:14

    What else can you spect from a Trump hating Clinton appointed judge who went out of his way to make sure that the result of this trial was as negative as it could possibly be. Speaking to and in control of a jury from an anti Trump area, which is probably the worst place in the United States for me to get a fair trial. We’ll be appealing this decision that’s a disgrace I don’t even know who this woman is.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:45

    So he’s not taking it well. It is May tenth two thousand twenty three. And as you know, the pattern is full. So we’re gonna be doing something a little bit different today later in the show. I’m gonna be talking to a remarkable reporter who just arrived back in Ukraine, Tim Mac.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:00

    Is a former NPR correspondent who was one of the staffers who was laid off when NPR cut its staff. But he was so passionate about reporting on what’s happening in Ukraine, that he’s gone back on his own, and he’s launched a new sub spec newsletter called the Counteroffensive, and I’m going to be talking with him in just a few minutes. But Obviously, we’d just start with some of the days rather remarkable news. Tucker Carlson says he’s back on Twitter and be a little skeptical about all of this. George Santos indicted on thirteen counts charged with fraud, money laundering theft of public funds and false.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:36

    Statements. She’s who would imagine that. Federal authorities say that Santos lied to his donors, the House of Representatives, state unemployment officials, and others resulting in just tally this up here. Seven counts of wire fraud, three counts of money laundering, one count of theft to public funds, and two counts of lying to the House of Representatives. On financial forms.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:56

    The weird twist, of course, is that Republicans only have a four vote margin in the House. So Kevin McCarthy needs George Santos’ vote. So, yeah, what could possibly go wrong? And of course, then there’s Trump. It almost smells like accountability.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:14

    I wrote about this in my newsletter morning shots today, and it does feel as if we are in this weird historical loop. I think we all remember when the access Hollywood tape dropped back on October seventh two thousand sixteen. You know,
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:30

    I’m automatically attracted to beautiful. I just started kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just I don’t have to wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:38

    You can do anything. Whatever you want. Grab them by the pussy. I can do anything.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:44

    But here’s the thing. Actually, they don’t let you do it. And as it turns out, you can’t do anything after all because we had that federal jury, not the judge, the federal jury, find that the former president actually committed an act of sexual abuse and maliciously them lied about it. In other words, this time around, it’s not just locker room talk, when he assaulted Eugene Carol and the founder, he actually attacked a woman. But when I talk about it in a historic loop, what I’m saying is that I think the Trump and company and Republicans just kind of assumed the access Hollywood tape was ancient history that it was already forgotten litigated by the twenty sixteen election.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:23

    But as I described in my newsletter this morning, in one of history’s more pungent ironies, that tape helped doing Trump this week you know, when jurors got to hear them explain that, yeah, stars did get away with grabbing women by by the pussy. Unfortunately or fortunately. So what I wrote this morning was Here we are again. It’s October seven two thousand sixteen all over again. But this time, the issues are more sharply drawn and the stakes are even higher.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:49

    I mean, back then, you know, and then I wrote about this in my book, because I do think that October seven two thousand sixteen was one of those pivot moments. The Republican Party could have taken that off ramp. Instead, they decided that they were gonna continue that long process of capitulating and rationalizing Donald Trump. So we’re back to that moment, but the simulation that we’re all living through is a little bit different this time because it’s not just talk, it’s not just a hape. You can’t just brush it off.
  • Speaker 1
    0:04:20

    This jury found that Trump actually assaulted and injured a woman and then lied about it with malice. So the Republican party has similar choice to make whether they’re gonna go along with all of this, but it’s kind of on steroids. It also is kind of a flashback for me Because in private, of course, Republicans are saying they’re appalled by this. They’re worried about this, but only a very, very few of them are willing to speak out about it. Mitt Romney was one of this, what Mitt Romney had to say yesterday.
  • Speaker 3
    0:04:54

    The jury of his peers found him guilty
  • Speaker 4
    0:04:57

    of a sexual assault and awarded five million dollars to the person who was damaged. I hope the jury of the American people reached the same conclusion about Donald Trump. Pete just is not suited to be president of the United States.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:14

    Yeah. A reminder is if we needed one Aissa Hutchinson, who is former governor Arkansas, also running for president, has been willing to take on Donald Trump He also issued a statement talking about Trump’s
  • Speaker 5
    0:05:28

    indefensible behavior. Here’s Isa Hutchinson. Appraxol over twenty five years, anytime a jury comes back with a verdict, I respect the verdict to the jury. Jury verdicts reflect the community. They reflect America.
  • Speaker 5
    0:05:42

    And they also have weighed as no one else has the credibility, the witnesses, and the truth of the allegations that they found unanimously that the allegations of a sexual assault were true. Mhmm. And so I believe we all as a society And there’s a Republicans ought to take that jury very seriously to do otherwise undermines our system
  • Speaker 6
    0:06:06

    of justice, which is second to none in the world, And also, it’s just simply a reflection of continued indispensable conduct by former president Donald Trump. Indefensible conduct, but, like, in
  • Speaker 1
    0:06:20

    case you haven’t been paying attention, what you’re about to see is is a repeat of the defense of the defensible the usual fluffers of fluffing. Senator Marco Rubio said the jury is a joke. The whole case is a joke. And I don’t know. Does Rubio think that there was a contest of, you know, which member of the United States Senate has debased himself more and then he was jealous of the fact that Lindsey Graham has kicked so much attention.
  • Speaker 1
    0:06:44

    And by the way, in case you haven’t seen this Will Saletan, you know, fantastic deep dive into into Lindsay Graham is now an ebook. You can get it on amazon dot com. I think it’s two ninety nine or you can read it on the on the bowler. Then, of course, there was Lindsay Graham who said when it comes to Donald Trump, the New York legal system is off the rails. And America’s dumbest senator also had some thoughts.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:06

    I know there’s a lot of competition for this, but I think senator Tommy Tuberville is pretty much gonna lock on it at least for this week. He actually said it makes me want to vote for him twice. I want you to think about that for a moment. I want you to think about the mentality behind that. That here is the former president who has been apparently credibly accused, a jury has found that the preponderance of evidence suggests that he actually tacked a woman, that he injured a woman, that he sexually abused a woman.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:34

    And Tommy Tuberville’s reaction is, I wanna vote for him twice. He said they’re they’re gonna do anything they can to keep him from winning. How far are they gonna keep us going in a year? Now, of course, this is just one of the growing list of cases against Donald Trump. And so on tomorrow’s podcast, we’re gonna go deeper into all of them.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:53

    As you probably know, we partner with law fair. And every Thursday, Ben, Wettice and I are gonna be taking this deep dive into all the legal problems running the next president and all of his minions. So stay tuned for tomorrow’s podcast, the Trump trials. And in the meantime, we’re going to Ukraine. Tim Max, a former investigative correspondent for NPR, and he’s also the author of Miss Fire inside the downfall of the NRA, and he is now backing you freight covering the war and sharing his reporting on his sub spec newsletter, the counter offensive, which I strongly recommend.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:27

    Tim is also a former US army combat Medic. Tim, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. Of
  • Speaker 7
    0:08:34

    course, love the podcast and would love to try to talk to your listeners and tell them to sign up for the counter offensive.
  • Speaker 1
    0:08:41

    Okay. So where are you right now? Where are you in Ukraine?
  • Speaker 7
    0:08:45

    So I’m in Laveave, which is in the western part of Ukraine. It’s a major hub for entry into the country. You can’t fly commercially into Ukraine, obviously, because there’s a war going on. So a lot of humanitarian supplies, a lot of diplomats, and of course, reporters, come through Laveave on route to points for their east. Now it takes, you know, two or three days, probably three days to get to keep from Washington DC, which is where I was fast.
  • Speaker 7
    0:09:12

    And it’s a long grilling process. So you caught me in the middle of it. Let’s talk about why you’re back in Ukraine because this is an interesting
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:18

    story to me. I mean, I think a lot people are familiar with your work at national public radio. And and you were part of the layoffs that dramatically cut the workforce, but you decided that even though you were leaving NPR, you were still going to continue reporting from Ukraine, so you are back pretty much on your own. That’s kind of an extraordinary choice. Talk to me about that a little bit too.
  • Speaker 1
    0:09:42

    Well,
  • Speaker 7
    0:09:42

    look, I’m so committed to that story, and I you know, I’ve always wanted to build something of my own. So that’s why I decided to go to sub stack, start the counter offensive and try to see if there would be an audience out there for kind of reporting I do, which is focusing on investigations and feature stories about the war. It’s it’s what I really enjoyed doing. But you’re right. I mean, it’s a big bet and a big risk.
  • Speaker 7
    0:10:04

    It’s a bet that people really do care about this conflict and really do want the sort of reporting than I wanna do. And it’s not clear whether that bet will pay off yet. But regardless, I’m willing to put my savings into this. I am really devoted telling the stories of these people and we’ll see how long I can go for. Well,
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:23

    and you’ve been there from the beginning. You landed in Kiev on February twenty third two thousand twenty two to cover a possible war, and the invasion began that night, and I think the people who are familiar with your reporting knows how you try to, you know, capture, you know, what life was like as well as doing some of this investigative reporting. Let’s talk about what you’re seeing there. I know that you’ve written that, you know, as you travel across Ukraine tasting the soups made by Ukrainian cooks, meeting the heroic animal culture, volunteers, and frontline cities and listening to patriotic, Ukrainian, and music that’s making a comeback. So you’re covering the war, but you’re also covering the a culture of a country in wartime.
  • Speaker 7
    0:11:05

    I think that’s right. I mean, what I wanna do is write compelling stories about what’s happening on the ground level. I think A lot of people are tired of the bangs and boom story, and a lot of people don’t want a daily update on, you know, the Brenton Line was here in this village, and now it’s moved there to that village. What I really wanna do is cover the culture and the cuisine and the language and the history and create compelling human stories, whether they’re stories that are based on. The anger that some people must feel, the hopelessness, some others might feel, the sense of betrayal, some people feel here in Ukraine.
  • Speaker 7
    0:11:38

    And then make those compelling stories that happen to be in a war zone. That gives it that story an extra little edge. That’s what’s interesting to me. And I want to write stuff that’s interesting for me to write and interesting for my readers to read. And so what I want to do is I want to wrap that all together.
  • Speaker 7
    0:11:54

    I
  • Speaker 1
    0:11:55

    wanna come back to the point about people feeling betrayed, but I wanted to talk about the reality of being a war correspondent, you know, these times. I mean, before you went back to Ukraine, you talk to three pretty well known form of work or Ron DeSantis, Sebastian Younger, Chris Hedges, and Kim Dozier, and they offered some words of advice and caution you. What did they tell you? What what advice did they give you going back to Ukraine right now?
  • Speaker 7
    0:12:17

    It’s interesting because I asked all of them you know, the very open end question, which is, hey, what should I know about being a work correspondent? Now, I have been a work correspondent for the last year or so, but my experience pales in comparison to these three very experienced war correspondents. Right? And and so what I found interesting there are a number of things. I found very interesting.
  • Speaker 7
    0:12:40

    This isn’t in my story. So this is a this isn’t exclusive for your podcast at least for now until I write about it. But One thing I found really interesting is that some of the workhorse buttons I talked to just don’t drink alcohol anymore, that it had upon reflection not such a great impact on their lives after they’ve acknowledged all the ways that the trauma of war affected them. Safastian Younger told me, look, he’s had a number of great drinks in his life. And he said, thank God for that.
  • Speaker 7
    0:13:09

    But that as he’s gotten older and reckoned with some of the things that he’s experienced. He didn’t think that it was the right move for him to continue to drink. And he hasn’t drank a single sip of alcohol in years and years and years. What I also spoke to a number of them about was, hey, what do you need to be remembering? Ron DeSantis Youngers’ advice was what you really need is a reality check when you are doing a story.
  • Speaker 7
    0:13:36

    Are you out there as a work correspondent? You can have a personal experience, some sort of member of a team that that can tell a good bar story in three or four years. Are you there because there’s real utility in the public interest to tell that story. Are you taking the sorts of risks that you would wanna take just for the experience of it? Or one because the news value of it is so great that the risk is necessary to take.
  • Speaker 7
    0:14:01

    And that was really very compelling to me because being a work correspondent is ups and downs. It can be super exciting. It can be super depressing. Take a real toll, but there’s so much value in it. And I understand the temptation to do a story.
  • Speaker 7
    0:14:19

    Just for the personal experience of it. But what he’s saying is don’t do it for a good anecdote. Do it because the public interest requires it and don’t do it unless it does. Chris Hedges had a different advice. He said, you gotta learn the language, that it’s impossible to truly connect in the ways that I wanna connect with the counter offensive on culture and cuisine and history, if you are not trying to speak and learn some of that language.
  • Speaker 7
    0:14:43

    And, you know, I’ve made it a big big priority of mine to to start doing that. Kim Dozier focused more about your responsibility as the head of a team. No war correspondent goes anywhere alone. They’ve always got interpreters and they’ve got folks that they work with, reporting colleagues, security colleagues, and, you know, she kinda used this analogy of, you know, when you’re on a plane and the oxygen mask drops down, you have to put the mask on yourself first before you can help others. And and she was saying, you have to be really very contemplative and introspective about your emotions and how solid and steady you feel.
  • Speaker 7
    0:15:22

    Before you can be an effective team leader. So you put all of that together. You know, it’s a pretty good bundle of advice for work correspondence, or not for work correspondence actually. Well,
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:31

    I don’t know that I could do your job without drinking, though. I don’t think I would be able to make it. And of course, there is the just the constant danger here. It was just this week, I think it was just yesterday. We we had a a report that a video journalist had been killed by rocket fire in nearbach mood, and it makes him the eleventh journalist or media team member killed covering the war in Ukraine.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:53

    So this can be terrifying as well. You mentioned something. I just I just wanted to go back before. I forget it. You’re talking to the people in the countryside, in the cities.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:02

    And you you mentioned that there’s a sense of betrayal. You just tell me a little bit about that right now? Because I wanna get some sense of what the mood of the country is, what people are saying, what’s happening beneath the surface, because, you know, most of what we do know is as you studied the booms and the bangs. So what what is the sense of betrayal? Really feel betrayed by?
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:23

    Well, you know, there are a lot of people and you’ll you’ll
  • Speaker 7
    0:16:25

    meet them every day who prior to the invasion actually occurring, refused to believe it could actually happen. Right? You hear this with a lot of different other elements too. I think of, you know, Taiwan and Taipei, actually. Right?
  • Speaker 7
    0:16:39

    Because similar arguments are being made now that no invasion could ever occur. Things like, oh, they have so much cross cultural engagement with one another, or business ties are so deep between the two countries. And then it happened. Right? So many people in Ukraine have family members right across the border in Russia.
  • Speaker 7
    0:16:59

    And they feel deeply betrayed that in many many cases, I would say in most cases, their Russian family members or former Russian colleagues, had totally bought the line from the Putin government, which is that it was necessary and inevitable that Russia invade. Right? So there’s a deep sense of betrayal here. There’s also a sense of betrayal among Ukrainians. When it comes to Ukrainians, who worked with the Russians in the initial stages of the invasion.
  • Speaker 7
    0:17:31

    There is no small number of Ukrainians who took some money from Russian forces and then ended up eating that initial push in some way. There’s an immense sense of betrayal over that. So those would be the two kind of major things that I’m thinking about when I talk about betrayal. Another big thing that I’m hearing is just a feeling of normalcy setting in, in certain parts of the country. The further away from the front lines you get the more relaxed people are.
  • Speaker 7
    0:18:00

    I’m in Lave, which is in Western Ukraine, which is quite far away from the bombings that are happening in Kiev on an over the last couple weeks on a near nightly basis. And people are very relaxed here. You know, I went for a walk last evening and it’s a there was a nice spring sunset and everyone was out walking in the park. You could hardly even imagine that there was a war going on, but we are in a country at war. And I think a lot of soldiers in the front lines are relating to me that they feel kind of, you know, frustrated.
  • Speaker 7
    0:18:31

    That they’re losing their sense of motivation if their country isn’t along with them. What their concern is is that people will just adapt and try to continue to live life and kind of forget the folks who are pushing on the frontline. That’s a real concern. Few months ago, I was at a a cafe in Kiev. You could probably imagine it as any suburban cafe you could find in America really.
  • Speaker 7
    0:18:56

    I mean, it was upper class neighborhood and you had mothers with strollers and babies and very high end coffee and everyone was chattering on the patio. And then an explosion happens nearby. And everyone goes quiet. And there’s just this moment of silence and people kind of look around, they check, make sure everything’s okay, all limbs are here, and then they just start talking again, like nothing happened. There’s a sense that hey, there’s a war happening, but also people are starting to get used to it.
  • Speaker 7
    0:19:28

    And that’s a concern of some soldiers on the front.
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:33

    On Monday, before you you arrived, you know, Russia launched large scale attacks on Kiev and across Ukraine with this swarm of attack drones and The whole country was under a Russian air raid alert. They fired cruise missiles overnight in Tuesday morning as well, most of which were intercepted by Ukraine’s air defenses. So talk to me a little bit about Victory Day in Russia yesterday. When we scheduled this podcast, I know that you mentioned that that you thought that, you know, the Vladimir Putin might do something rather spectacular to mark a victory day and that might disrupt communications. We did have the missile attacks But all the accounts that I’m seeing are that Victory Day in Russia, which is a commemoration of Victory in World War two, was a rather subdued downbeat kind of thing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:18

    What what is your take about the way Victor Day went off in twenty twenty three?
  • Speaker 7
    0:20:23

    Well, I’d say it was rather muted for probably a couple reasons. One is that Victory Day is often accompanied by Relatives of deceased soldiers holding, you know, placards and photos of their loved ones who have died in war. And you could imagine that it would be a pretty serious political fiasco if folks showed up on the red square with all the photos of the deceased soldiers who have died in this ongoing war. I imagine Putin doesn’t want that reminder of how many Russian soldiers have died so far in that conflict. And a second reason perhaps for the muted nature of Victory Day in Moscow is a security issue.
  • Speaker 7
    0:21:10

    That, of course, you remember that there was an explosion near a Russian government building very recently that the Russian government blamed it on Ukraine and the United States. Both of them deny that the explosion had anything to do with them. But still security was extremely, extremely tight and that’s going to limit what you can do in terms of obviously a parade or a public gathering. In fact, the Red Square was, as I understand, it closed down for security reasons for two weeks prior to this event. Because of I guess Russia’s perceived security threat around the marking of this occasion.
  • Speaker 7
    0:21:44

    So they’re very worried, obviously, They might be a little paranoid, obviously. And the war is taking its toll on Russia and the Russian government as well. Well,
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:55

    let’s again talk about what’s going on in in Ukraine. I mean, you were describing that surreal scene, you know, from Cuba, where people are sitting around having coffee while there are bombs going on. How effective have the NATO grade any missile defense systems or the Patriot missiles been? Has that changed the dynamic? Has it made Ukrainians more confident.
  • Speaker 1
    0:22:15

    What is your sense about that?
  • Speaker 7
    0:22:16

    Well, obviously, they are shooting a lot of missiles. Out of the sky. But these attacks continue and they continue to evade air defenses in some way. So, you know, when I talk to folks, in Kiev where I’m headed to tomorrow, they say, hey, I have not had you’re gonna have to excuse me. I have not slept well for the last couple of weeks.
  • Speaker 7
    0:22:37

    Because every night there are explosions, there’s a serious feeling of tension in the air. People are not well. I mean, you know, this war is dragging on, it’s having an effect on. Things like sleep. It’s having an effect on mental wellness.
  • Speaker 7
    0:22:49

    It’s having an effect on, you know, your professional lives and your your social lives. Even though there’s a real interest in returning to normalcy. There are clear signs that this lengthy now one year plus war is starting to take its long term toll and its long term hold on the residents of Kiev and other residents in Ukraine. And
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:11

    it comes to the question of what is the morale of the country because, of course, in in in that first year, we focused on the Ukrainian morale and the way the country pulled together, the way the whole west pulled together. Is there any cracks in that? I mean, it it’s one thing to be exhausted. It’s something else to be demoralized. Where are we at and that continue?
  • Speaker 7
    0:23:31

    I would say people are starting to get tired. I wouldn’t quite use the word exhausted, maybe, you know, periodically exhausted, but they’re as committed as ever. From what I can tell to winning this war. I mean, they’re willing to sacrifice quite a deal more. The question is, you know, what will the situation on the battlefield be such that they can stop sacrificing.
  • Speaker 7
    0:23:53

    Right? I think there is certainly an interest in Ukraine that the war be over and that normal economic life resume. That said, they’re not gonna take that deal at any cost. They’re not gonna take a bad deal. I mean, you you’ll see that most people in Ukraine are uninterested right now in a brokered peace deal with Russia.
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:13

    Really interesting.
  • Speaker 7
    0:24:14

    Well, not with at least the current lines. Right? They’re not willing to seed Ukrainian territory to the Russians as a condition of peace. And so, while people are starting to get tired, they’re not willing to say, well, let’s just leave those folks who are behind the current lines to the Russians. I don’t I don’t think they’re willing to concede that.
  • Speaker 7
    0:24:33

    And I saw this big turning point happen. You know, in the first few weeks of the war Everyone was alarmed and fearful, but they thought, well, you know, we’re hoping that this war will end in a few months. The real turning point was was Búcha, I think. And and the publication of stories and photos and videos of the war crimes and alleged war crimes, the Russians perpetrated in that suburb of Kiev, that a lot of Ukrainians could see themselves in the victims there. Oh, that apartment building kind of looks like my apartment building.
  • Speaker 7
    0:25:07

    And oh, that woman kinda looks like my neighbor and and those folks have dogs just like like I do. And they they saw the way that Russian soldiers behaved in Búcha, and they were so angry and so so outraged that that anger and outrage continued to calcify in their souls basically. This feeling that they would not budge until they had liberated the other portions of Ukraine because they’re worried that this sort of thing will be inevitable behind Russian lines right now. You said
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:39

    they’re committed to winning this war for the average Ukrainian, what does winnings look like? What will it take you said the the current lines are not acceptable what is acceptable if you have to get back all of Crimea? Or are we there yet?
  • Speaker 7
    0:25:54

    Different people will have different opinions on exactly what that means. I found, you know, really instructive what Resnakov said. Now Resnakov heads the, essentially, the defense department of. Ukraine. And what he said is, I will know that Ukraine has achieved victory.
  • Speaker 7
    0:26:13

    When I’m able to get on a flight in Kiev, take a commercial flight to Western Europe. And when I landed the Hague — Mhmm. — I will personally prosecute the Russian war criminals who committed these war crimes against us. I found that, like, a really instructive definition of victory, actually. Because you noticed, he doesn’t mention anything about territory in that answer.
  • Speaker 7
    0:26:33

    But there are two elements here. One is the resumption of normal commercial activity and the second is accountability for war crimes. I think that’s really instructive of where some folks are at
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:45

    right
  • Speaker 7
    0:26:46

    now. Resolute would never, by the way, say, explicitly, oh, we’re willing to acknowledge some level of territorial loss or whatever. You know, he would never be able to say this. But you’ll notice he doesn’t include it. He omitted it from the definition of victory.
  • Speaker 7
    0:27:01

    It may be a sort of political acknowledgment. That it’s not possible to get every inch of territory back or he’s leaving room for that eventuality. I may also be overanalyzing his answer by the way, but I’d say that it was instructive to me because his two priorities appear to be accountability and the resumption of economic life.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:23

    So we’re coming up to what looks like it’s going to be one of the pivot points in this war, the spring counter offensive, or reports, the true arrested. They have plenty of ammunition from Western allies along with they’ve gotten, you know, the new howitzers as opposed to the
  • Speaker 7
    0:27:37

    old Soviet artillery pieces. Did the tanks ever show up here? Depends on which tanks you’re talking about. It actually takes a long period of time to train the folks to operate these tanks. Depending on when the counter offensive starts.
  • Speaker 7
    0:27:49

    There’s still some months away from depending on which tanks you’re talking about, but I think the bulk of the
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:54

    tanks are still some some months away. Okay. So they’re under tremendous pressure right now. Right? I mean, from from the west to reclaim some territory or show some progress from luxurious damage on Russian forces.
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:07

    So give me your sense of when this counter offensive kicks off and how we should be looking at, how we should evaluate, its success or lack of success.
  • Speaker 7
    0:28:16

    You know, the pressure is purely a political point. Right? The pressure is from Western allies who have committed so much aid and weaponry and training that they’re looking to see some results on the ground Now from a military perspective, Ukraine could choose not to launch a counter offensive at this point or delay a counter, but purely from a political perspective because we talked a little bit about how Ukrainians are starting to get fatigued about the war. Obviously, other people in Western capitals are also starting to get fatigued, and they wanna see that their investment in terms of aid and weaponry. Is going somewhere.
  • Speaker 7
    0:28:56

    You know, the the Ukrainian generals and officers who are planning this counter offensive, they don’t generally feel that sort of pressure. It’s the politicians and keys that are kind of pushing for because they realized the reality, which is Western capitalists are trying to say, hey, let’s see something
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:15

    here. Yeah. Well, how worried are Ukrainians about the West losing interest or losing commitment or the political wind shifting here in the United States?
  • Speaker 7
    0:29:25

    I think that there’s an acknowledgment by some Ukrainians that it’s inevitable that over time, people will not feel as strongly about events in Ukraine as they did in in the past. But what I also get is a sense of, you know, Ukrainian steadfastness and and their own personal commitment to this. This war until whatever their individual versions of victory are, you know, that a lot of Ukrainians are grateful for Western support, but without it, they would still fight on. You know, that that that they’re determined to achieve some sort of military victory. You know, that said, I think every Ukrainian recognizes that the aid from Western governments has been totally critical to where they stand right now in
  • Speaker 1
    0:30:10

    the war. So you named your sub stack newsletter the counter offensive obviously referring to the planned military operation. But but you you’ve explained on Twitter that the that the name has other meanings as well. So why did you pick the counter offensive other than the fact that we’re about to go into a counter offensive?
  • Speaker 7
    0:30:30

    Well, yes, it’s named after the planned and coming counteroffensive in Ukraine, but I kind of mean it to mean a number of things, to counter Western apathy and cynicism and ignorance about this or to teach people about what’s going on in Ukraine on a ground level. That’s what I hope to do. And I hope this is This sub stack, the counter offensive, is also a counter offensive against the rise of authoritarianism in eastern Europe and in Asia. I I wanna also bring stories to you from Estonia and from Taipei. I want the publication to be able to humanize the conflict in ways because, you know, when you think about autocracy, that’s a society in which really the only human with power is the single person at the top.
  • Speaker 7
    0:31:17

    And then the other kind of minions below. But if you humanize a society and you try to tell these stories, I think it’s a powerful way to combat. The rise of autocracy. It’s a powerful way to show that there are cooks and jazz players and marketing consultants here in Ukraine and to tell the stories like you mentioned of people who care and love their dogs and and would do anything to say their lives and even evacuating with them on trains. This story is so much more.
  • Speaker 7
    0:31:46

    This war is so much more than just, like I said, the bangs and the booms. And I really wanna give some life and color to that. How long do you think you’re going to be there? Ron DeSantis, as long as long as I can, I think?
  • Speaker 1
    0:31:59

    Indefinitely, wow. That’s that is a hell of an answer. How often
  • Speaker 7
    0:32:03

    are you gonna be putting out the newsletter for us to follow what you’re doing? I think two times a week with more as needed as required by the news I think that’s a good amount. I’ve been experimenting with a lot of, you know, sub stack tools like their chat function and and their kind of Twitter alternative notes as well. Be curious to see what readers and your listeners think about how to best, you know, effectively use it. But ultimately, I’m trying to give a ground level look at what’s happening here.
  • Speaker 7
    0:32:31

    What’s happening on the street as I’m walking down or as I’m jogging through the park or, you know, what what I’m seeing is we get closer to the front lines. Things that would be part of your reporter’s notebook, but never really make it into a story, if you know what I mean. The kinds of stories that that you wouldn’t be able to tell at a major news outlet, but which I think people are really hungry for because there’s really nothing like it. I’m kind of like live tweeting the war in some senses. I’m expanding on that a little bit obviously with the newsletter, but I want to make it as human as possible.
  • Speaker 7
    0:33:04

    I want folks to meet Ukrainians and understand more deeply what their lives are like, you know, from electrical station workers to musicians, to comedians, to everyone else who takes part in the society. And
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:19

    soldiers, of course, as well. Think the reporting is gonna be absolutely invaluable. Tim Max’s newsletter is the counter offensive. You can find it on a sub stack. Tim, was a longtime correspondent for NPR.
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:32

    I think many of you are familiar with his work after the layoffs at NPR. He said, I’m gonna go back. Ukraine because he is so passionate about covering this and is speaking to us from Ukraine today. Tim, thank you so much for joining the Bulwark podcast today.
  • Speaker 7
    0:33:46

    Thank you so much for having me. And
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:48

    thank you all for listening to today’s bold Secret Podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. We will be back tomorrow and we’ll do this all over again. Secret Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, an engineered and edited by accent brown.
  • Speaker 5
    0:34:14

    Dissecting politics with exclusive interviews, commentary, and humor, useful idiots with Katie Halper and Aaron Mate.
  • Speaker 8
    0:34:22

    I really don’t like sharks, and I think we live in a very sharky gandissip world. Quote, one thing to keep in mind is sharks are not out there trying to eat surfers and swimmers. They’d much rather eat fish, but in many cases, they mistake us for their actual prey. When they do bite, they usually move on. That’s supposed to make us feel better?
  • Speaker 5
    0:34:39

    Youthful idiots. Wherever you listen.
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