Tim Miller: Heroes and Zeroes of the GOP

Welcome to the

Secret Podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. Oh my god. It is September first two thousand twenty three. It’s Friday.

At least we have a long weekend, Tim. I mean, I I’m looking forward to the long weekend. Do you?

I love a long weekend.

I do.

I get sad at the end of summer. You know, I love summer.

Not done yet. Got another three weeks.

Fall people. If you’re a fall person, just close your ears for a second because I don’t get fall people. I just don’t get It’s like, you know, I have this this childhood, maybe trauma, you know, that that bubbles up inside of me just this feeling the cabins in my gut. That’s like, I know I have to go back to school right now. Schools coming.

So, anyway, that’s it. I’m gonna have a great weekend. LSU Tigers are back. It’s beautiful here in Louisiana. We’re gonna have a great time.

It’s gonna be a nice three day weekend.

I actually love fall because it’s beautiful here in, in the beautiful Midwest. We have all the colors. We have the — Like, five of the the the gold No. No. It’s basic.

It is it is it is beautiful, but, there there was that whole back to school thing. You know, you sort of go back to back and forth remembering how excited you were the first day of school versus is the anxiety of, like, holy crap. I have to go back to school. Yeah. Hey, I gotta tell you.

First time in decades, walked the grandson, to the bus this morning. It happened. First day, it happened.

Oh, so exciting.

Yeah. Was that when was it? Today?

This morning?

This morning. Oh, Friday’s got

a weird day. First day of school. It’s just like a little orientation situation.

It’s kinda brilliant. You ease into the year by starting on Friday, then you have a three day weekend, and then you dive in next week. So

It’s a very French schedule, actually. So it’s a nice way to get from the start.

A little bit, but, you know, I mean, the you know, back to school thing and you, you know, get the get the school supplies and everything. And it’s even more exciting when it’s not you.

I definitely hear that.

Can we do something a little bit, unusual? Can we start off with something positive today?

I’d love to. I have a few positive things, even.

I think we spent several years on a regular basis, you know, doom gloom talking about which Republican has crushed our souls, has disillusioned us, who has betrayed fundamental principles, all of that stuff. Did you catch the George governor Brian Kemp’s press conference yesterday? I did. Okay. Now I understand a lot of people are gonna go, Brian Kemp.

No. No. No. Okay. Whatever you think about his politics.

I think this was pretty extraordinary. There is a big push in the Georgia legislature from the usual suspects to do something like impeaching district attorney Fony Willis. This is a big thing down in Florida where Ron DeSantis is a bit of firing prosecutors that he doesn’t like. And so there is this push let’s use our legislative clout in Georgia to to pull Fony Willis and basically obstruct and blow up the entire case. So it Again, I I think is is one of the sort of amazingly ironic moments for the party of law and order that that ran so success fully against defund the police and now that, like, hey, hold our beer, you know, defone the prosecutors, defund the law enforcement, defone the criminal justice, eliminate

the FBI. Why stop there? Who needs an FBI?

Well, Brian Kemp. Again, I don’t know this guy. I don’t do you know him at all? I mean, have you ever in countered him and anyone?

I covered him. No. I’ve never actually I never well, that’s not true. Actually, we, I met him one time with Jeb. We are together, and he is friendly, but it was kind of a form formal setting.

And and and then I and then for the Bulwark, I went down and covered his campaign. So some in little press gaggle. So I I don’t know him personally, but

I mean, he kinda ran his governor, you know, as kind of a manga, you know, manga guy, you know, with the buses, he’s gonna send immigrants back and all of that.

Yeah. I had a negative initial feeling done because he had that first app that was like blow up the bus and the send the illegals back type thing, which was pretty gross.

Right. Total pander. But He did, as we all know, stand up to Donald Trump, but when Donald Trump was pushing the big lie, and and he lived to tell about it. This is again another extraordinary story because the assumption on the part of every Republican in America is if you cross Donald Trump, particularly on election stuff, you’re dead. That’s the third rail.

He defies Trump, ignores Trump, you know, is primary and wins overwhelmingly. So, I mean, he’s kind of

a untouchable a little bit.

So anyway, there’s this big push to use the legislature. We, you know, to to pull Fony Will Saletan holds a press conference yesterday saying absolutely not. Let’s play it because he he doesn’t hold much back here.

I did wanna take just a few minutes to speak to some history that’s trying to repeat itself over the last few days here in Georgia. Many of you will recall that in the final weeks of twenty twenty, clearly and repeatedly said that I would not be calling a special session of the general assembly to overturn the twenty twenty election results because such an action would have been unconstitutional. It was that simple. Fast forward today nearly three years later, memories are fading fast. There have been calls by one individual in the general assembly

and echoed outside of the of these

walls by the former president for a special session that would ignore current Georgia law and directly interfere with the proceedings of a separate but equal branch of government. Up to this point, I have not seen any evidence that DA Willis’s actions or lack thereof warrant action by the executing attorney oversight commission. But that will ultimately be a decision that the commission will make. Regardless, in my mind, a special session of the general assembly to end run around this law is not feasible and may ultimately prove to be unconstitutional. The bottom line is that in the state of Georgia, as long as I’m governor, we’re going to follow the law in the constitution.

Regardless of who it helps or harms politically. Over the last few years, Some inside and outside of this building may have forgotten that, but I can assure you I have not. The oath I took with my hand on the Bible that’s right behind me in January of twenty three is the same Bible that I took in my inauguration in two thousand and nineteen. And in Georgia, we will not be engaging in political fear that only inflames the motions of the moment. We will do what is right.

We will uphold our oaths as public servants. And it’s my belief that our state will be better off for.

Who is this guy, Tim? Wow. That warms your heart a little bit, doesn’t it? He goes on to talk about the grifters, you know, and the grifting off of all of this. It’s like, Hey, who are you talking about?

What are you aiming? He could have just issued a press release. Right? He could have written a letter saying yes, no. We’re not going to do this.

You know? Thank you for your concerns. But at this point, we’re going to keep it on it. No. He comes out and basically says, okay.

We’ve been through this bullshit we’re not gonna do this bullshit again. It’s illegal. It’s unconstitutional, and we are not gonna engage in some stupid political theater like some other people out there.

Yeah. Or, you know, he could have done nothing. And there are a lot of different steps between what he did And, you know, what the other options would have been. Right? And just think on how these senators act, right, how mar what Marco would have done in this situation.

Right? You get asked about something like this. It’s Yeah. You know, he starts talking about how the me why the media is always obsessing over this random, nonsense, and and, oh, you know, isn’t it not true that the district attorney, Fony Will Saletan targeting Trump and that it’s politicized. And you guys you know what I mean?

Like, he could’ve done that. He could’ve attacked the media. He could’ve attacked Fony Willis. I’m I every done what every other Trump opponent is doing, saying that, you know, these prosecutions are not not appropriate. There are a million that he could do, and he chose to not brush it off, not attack the media, not attack Fony Willis, but defend Fony Will Saletan attack Trump.

Not by name. I guess. So he could’ve gone one step further. But everybody knows what he’s talking about.

I think everybody’s pretty clear

talking about. And and and just the thing that I thought watching this yesterday was I just would love to rewind history back to January seventh and just done, where would we be today? September one twenty twenty three, if everyone had done what Brian Kemp did. A much better response. Asking for everybody to to do even what Liz Cheney did.

Just what Brian Kemp did. Just, you know, speaking truth about what happened in the election, calling BS when it’s BS, you know, I’m not asking everybody to change parties, you know, not asking everybody to change their beliefs. Just speak honestly about what Donald Trump was doing.

Where

are we today? And my guess is that he’s convicted in the Senate, And that and that, you know, we’re we’re staring down the barrel of probably a campaign that doesn’t have Joe Biden nor Donald Trump. Right? Because Joe Biden wouldn’t feel like he needed to run again if Donald Trump wasn’t on the ticket. Individual choices matter.

Bill Crystal’s so good on this. Like history is contingent. Like, this stuff is not inevitable. And I just have so much credit to Brian Campus’ bite. Know, obviously, we disagree on a few unhandful issues, particularly on on social issues.

But if this was easy, some people say low bar, you know, I come from yesterday and a few people replied to me, like, oh, the bar is still low for a polka. I’m sure

you’re gonna lower the bar. Yeah.

The bar is low, I guess. But if the bar was He’s the only one stepping over it. So, so there must be something to it.

I’m with you on this. Okay. Let’s let’s go back to January seven. It’s not just everybody behaving like Brian Kemp. Like, if everybody behaved like they thought and they believed back on January seventh, if every one of them remember that moment.

And then, again, you’re you’re absolutely right. If Mitch McConnell would have gone ahead, pulled the trigger, and he would have had the DMP and the conviction. If all of these other Republicans had said, okay. We’re just done. If if Lindsey Graham had said, okay.

I’m off the train, you know, before I get yelled at in the airport. This country, this political world would be almost unrecognizable compared to what we have right now. And the Republican party would be better

off Like, this is a thing that I all that I kept saying at the time is Brian Kemp survived. Now George is a different animal. We talked about this a little bit on the podcast yesterday. I think that the nature of, like, Atlanta is so dominant. I I just think there’s so many more college educated kind of Republicans because the southern metropolis in the state.

I do think there’s some demographic reasons why George is happening, but there also is we ended up happening to get ethical leaders there. We could have a different universe where Marjorie Taylor, Greenran secretary of state instead of Congress, right, and we’d be in a whole different world right now. So so part of that is leadership. Part of it is demographics, but we, you know, the that we had this these decisions that were made in Georgia. And it’s like, I think that the the Republican party had everyone done that.

There would have been some sacrificial lambs. A few other people would have gotten Liz Chaney’d and lost primaries. But in the medium term, in the long term, the party would have yeah. The party would have been stronger. The party would have been stronger.

See, I think that’s almost inarguable. And this, by the way, is is Brian Kemp’s point as well that if you actually want to win elections, we need stop this sort of thing. And here we are in Georgia where we saw that up close and personal. And it is interesting to me why the Georgia Republican Party so different than the Republican Party, let’s say, of Michigan or the Republican Party of Arizona, which has gone completely crazy. Now of course, Marjorie Taylor Green still represents Georgia.

In the house. Right. Big Gastroos there. So your point about the Republican Party being strong. I mean, imagine if the Republican Party was not carrying, you know, the dead stinking carcass of, of Donald Trump on its back going into the twenty twenty four election.

They’d have every reason to be optimistic. The twenty twenty two.

I would have been a rocky exit. Right? A certain percentage of Magafokes would would have bailed on the party. There would have been some third party Magakinas. They were primary.

So there would have been a little pain. Like, you know, you don’t make a deal with the devil and not have a little pain coming out of it. But by now, by September one twenty twenty three, I think that that’s a trade that Mitch McConnell should have wanted to make. And he just didn’t do it. He went out.

He went out because he wanted to be the longest serving majority leader, and he he didn’t wanna get overthrown. And And it was just an unbelievably horrific consequential decision by him and Kevin McCarthy and and all of the party leaders, really. And they had they switched places with Brian Kemp I mean, we can only wish.

We’ll come back to Mitch McConnell in a moment because he’s in the news again. But before we get into, you know, irrational exuberance about Brian Kemp speech here. We go to the other end of the spectrum because

I got some feedback this week for some readers. Like, you guys are too doom and gloom. I’m like, Am I Am I doing gloom? I mean, I have a mug shot. Trump’s been indicted four times.

Well, you’re not the doom and gloom guy. You you you you and I had a shot in Freud, the party, you know, we could go here. And we got we got some negative. You guys shouldn’t be so happy about all of that. Whatever.

I got, you know, it’s like we we need to be much more earnest. We need to not to do this sort of thing. Anyway, So here’s the opposite end of the spec and just to remind us how far the party has come. And and I say this as as somebody that that was so desperate to stop Donald Trump in twenty sixteen that I supported and voted for I’m Winston. Can you feel me Winston?

Yeah.

Well, I did the same thing because no. That’s okay.

Ted Cruz. No. Okay. Ted Cruz. Look at Ted Cruz, who still remains a think he’s still a part time senator, full time YouTube influencer.

Yeah. It does give me a little bit of pleasure on the on the charts. He’s he’s behind this podcast significantly. And on some weeks, he’s behind this and the next level. So a full time YouTube or part time sender, he still is, you know, he’s still trailing us in the charts.

That’s That’s another thing to be happy about while we’re just being happy this weekend.

Every week in which we are higher on the charts, the Bulwark podcast, is higher on the charts than Ted Secret Podcast is a good week. Okay. So here’s performance artist Ted Cruz, who goes on News Max, and he’s triggered by these comments from a guy named George Koub, director of the National Institute on Alcohol abuse and alcoholism. And he’s really pissed off that this guy suggested that the maybe the US government should embrace Canada’s recommendation that people only drink two beers per week. Okay.

I’m gonna raise my hand. This is not going to happen. It’s never going to happen. Okay. But he found some random guy making this proposal He goes on News Max.

And in this sort of performance art, he’s standing in a bar. He’s wearing he’s wearing this blue, you know, shirt with lots of buttons and a bunch of guys in cowboy hats standing behind him, you know, obviously to, do some synchronized drinking. And here’s his rant. Here is part time US Senator full time YouTube influencer, Ted Cruz’s rant.

They’re trying to go after and regulate ceiling fans. I gotta It’s hot in Texas. We don’t want to get rid of our ceiling fans. And now these idiots have come out and said, drink two beers away that’s their guideline. Well, I gotta tell you if they want us to drink two beers a week.

Frankly, they can kiss my ass. No.

Okay. So

I, I brought a beer to drink with you. I’ll drink this non alcoholic beer with you because I’m not allowed to drink on camera, but

Jesus. Okay. Like we know.

I’ll have I’ll have a sip.

I gotta say what have you ever seen a brand do more damage to itself than Bud Light which at least seem to destroy themselves. So I’m glad you’re not drinking a bud light. Personally, I’m fond of Shiner Bach, which is a good, tech Texas brand. I’ve been to the Shiner brewery in Shiner, Texas, and I recommend it, and I promise you this is not alcohol free beer down here. Yeah.

Ted Cruz is a good old boy. He’s not gonna drink bud light. He’s not gonna drink a late beer. Oh, that’s a good boy. And those liberals are not gonna take that away from him.

They can kiss his ass.

Charlie Sykes, this is where the little limitation of the podcast that you, like, the visual here tug cruise is pretty important because number one, here’s this man ranting against somebody suggesting that he has less beer. While his beer gut is so big that he hasn’t seen his manhood since nineteen ninety nine. And I

Touch my toes. I am touching my toes. He’s my wedding.

He’s sweating. His neck is all re like, he’s, you know, he he’s profusely panting. And and he’s not gonna only have two beers. And then he does. And then when he does the, he can kiss my ass.

He, like, changes, like, leans his shoulder in and stay and does his performative post. Like, he’s been practicing in the mirror for a little while. Just like you Ivy League pansy. Yeah. Are you f you debate club Ivy League, pretending to be some fucking fierce willing to guy, the whole thing is just preposterous.

The whole thing is preposterous. Like, if there’s anybody stupid enough to get fooled by this They get what they deserve. That’s awesome. Like this guy has such a fucking phony.

Next week, Ted Cruz is gonna, you know, come down hard on, you know, the government warnings again drinking paid thinner. You know? Yeah. Down here in Texas, we wanna drink paid thinner. We are drinking pain thinner.

I don’t know where we’re gonna go on this. Alright. People are going, when are you guys gonna get serious?

We’re we’re we’re

we’re serious. Serious. You’re hanging by a thread. We are actually being serious. Okay.

So can I do a complete mood changer? Because just just change

it up here. I’ve been pretty happy, but, yeah, sure.

Okay. So I don’t know what I did. I don’t know which draw, I drew, but I apparently became the designated guy to go on and have to comment about the Mitch McConnell video. Oof. And, like, like, about three or four times I had to say that was really painful to watch because it is painful to watch.

I haven’t been called FED. Do you think that’s a generational thing? MSNBCs, like, we need to call in, you know, another old guy that they might be more empathetic? Or what do you think that the reason for that.

It could be that. Because what would you have said? Okay. They they show it.

Black of the

And you’re there going what?

I’m going, Mitch. Mitch? No. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Be careful what you wish for people. People who are dumping on this and okay. So here comes the comments section. But I’m looking at that going this is the danger of, you know, a politics dominated by a gerontocracy. And, you know, twenty twenty four, everybody’s thinking it’s gonna be all these indictments, all these trials.

You know, maybe it’s gonna be some eighty year old guy. I’m not naming any names here who freezes for thirty seconds. Who has those moments. This is what you get when your entire culture is hanging by the thread of eighty two year olds. And I’m sorry if that comes off as ages.

That’s just a fact.

I am worried about this, on a couple levels. The interesting thing just, it’s gaming out the politics not to be Macave. Kentucky is a democratic governor, and there’s an election in Kentucky this year. So there’s a lot of ends and outs and what have you is if if Mitch can’t at some point continue his duties. Now there there’s this appointment rule that they pass that he has to appoint a Republican, but we’ve already been whispering behind the scenes.

There are some never Trump Republicans down in Kentucky. I’d like to I’d like to see in the senate. So, anyway, we’ll see while while we’re in a happy talk mode. As for Mitch and Biden, the age thing. I’ll do the positive first.

Yeah. Joe Biden’s comments about Mitch. We’re very generous. And and I and somebody will be, like, he’s just doing that because, oh, he’s old too. And it’s, like, I I guess.

But still, he could do the thing, you know, and you could imagine. I can’t remember doing the Brian Kemp what what were some other options. You can imagine somebody like president Trump, former president trump in that situation, who’s also an old guy being like, yeah. Well, I haven’t been freezing lately. You know, people have been asking about my spam, and I’m not, you know, he could’ve done.

I thought I was sleepy Joe. It looks like he’s sleepy Mitch. He’s not doing that. Right? He doesn’t do any of that?

He talks to Mitch McConnell. It has paid off. They’ve got several bipartisan accomplishments, that he can now tell on the campaign when a lot of people said, including myself, by the way, that I didn’t think realistic that Biden was doing a little happy talk on how much, you know, he thought he could do from a bipartisan standpoint given the nature of the Republican Senate. So that’s all good. And it was all decent, and, and Biden’s response was really good.

Having said that, does bring up that thought in the back of your mind though, which is, like, there, but for the grace of god, go our democracy, really. If Joe Biden got into a situation like Mitch Connel was in, and and that is something that I think that is fair to be worried about.

It is fair to be worried And I know that we get people who say, you know, stop talking about Joe Biden’s age. Why? What because you think that denial is really a good strategy here because as I I talked to, your old colleague, Mike Murphy the other day, and we could talk about that in in a moment. But, you know, what I told him was, I mean, so far, every conversation I have with a voter, every single one will eventually get to the question of Joe Biden’s age. Now some some people say, you know, I’m worried about his age, but I’m definitely gonna vote for him.

I’m gonna vote for the old guy versus the fascist. You know, that’s not really a problem. But but they worry about I mean, it’s a reality. Every time he comes out and speaks, you know, I find myself struggling to listen to what he is saying as opposed to Why is he walking like that? You know, what he he sounds really old.

And if I’m thinking that, then other people are thinking that. And so let’s not tend it’s not there. I mean, I understand. Only happy give us only happy talk about this. Do not mention this giant elephant in the room But Joe Biden’s got two problems.

Mike Murphy says two big problems. Number one, the age problem. Number two, there is the whole number showing that he is not getting credit for the economy, that people don’t think that he’s a good steward of the economy, and Those two things are really dangerous for an incumbent president. No.

I don’t wanna belabor the point on this because and I think that I’ll just say, just two really quick things. Like, one,

I

am not exaggerating or, you know, playing some sort of political game. I genuinely think Joe, I had had the best first term of any president of my life. I I just I think it’s been better than what, obviously, Trump and Bush and Obama and Clinton. So I think he’s done a great job. I’ve had some things I disagreed with, of course, which we’ve talked about, but I think he’s done a great job.

But, you know, when he’s walking to the lectern, He looks like I was speaking with this last night. I was trying to walk into the room. I had to go get a shirt to wear on Stephanie Rules show at eleven PM. And, you know, my husband’s sleeping, and I’m, like, walking in the dark through the room, like, very gingerly, like, to not wake him up, and I don’t wanna bump into anything. And I was like, I just was thinking to myself.

I was like, this is kind of how Joe Biden walks. Right? And it’s like, you just can’t help yourself. Right? Like, you can’t help but notice it.

And then people reply and be like, What are you talking about? He seems and it’s like, he just he just doesn’t. Like, like, normal people when they’re watching him, it’s like, he seems really old. Has he done the job well? Could he still conceivably do the job well in the second term?

Yes. But, like, I just find it very weird when people are, like, What are you talking about?

It’s like,

what do you mean? What am I talking about? I just I have eyes. And, like, that’s something that I know people are gonna see. And it’s in worry.

And maybe when you look at all a game everything out, JBL did has done this in his newsletter and others, maybe if you game everything out, it’s like, okay. That risk is a smaller risk than the other potential risks. And I’m open to that argument for sure, and I think that’s probably right, really. But that doesn’t mean it’s not a risk.

It is a risk. And, again, I understand that people say, well, look, we’re stuck with it. Okay. And I acknowledge that. I mean, I don’t think the Democrats have a have a viable plan b at this particular point.

But I do think that it’s important to confront it and maybe, you know, look, there are ways of working around even in the modern internet age. Okay. So let’s move on to some of the other stuff. I mean, what did you think of Murphy’s critique, Mike Murphy’s critique?

I thought Murphy’s point about Biden was pretty right. You know, I part ways a little bit with him on the Republican Party side, with with love to Mike. I think that he, you know, on the Biden side, he had the antlers metaphor. You know, he’s like, he’s like, people wanna live in a fantasy world where what’s happening with Biden isn’t really happening. And other people are like, what are you talking about?

I I see the antlers. I thought that was a fair metaphor, but it feels like he has an antlers problem on the Republican side, which is just like this notion that, like, Trump has all these problems and somebody’s gonna come save the party from this, and someone else is gonna win. But it’s like, wow. It’s the old mean about, like, Donald Trump gets indicted. Question mark question mark question mark.

Someone else gets nominated to be the Republican Party president. Trump is dominating in every poll. His numbers have only gone up. Since the winter, there’s no sign of him losing any strength. So I I know that people don’t want this.

I know that there’s a lot of people who don’t want this, and including AB’s daughter who I thought wrote a good piece yesterday, but it’s just in my view, it’s like we’re staring down the barrel of Trump and Biden and and a meteor, I guess, could hit and change things. But as a political commentator and as somebody who has deeply invested in Donald Trump, not being president again, I think pretending, like, we’re not staring down the barrel of Biden and Trump is a little bit of folly.

I don’t disagree with that. But if you’re gonna have a conversation about this, this is the time to have it. We’re not gonna have this conversation in September of, of twenty twenty four. So I I think clear eyed recognition of reality is always a a good thing, you know, particularly if you’re a commentator, or if you’re a defender of the, you know, final bowl works of of democracy, you at least ought to know exactly what the state of your defense and the state of the attack is. Right?

Good information is better than self delusion. That’s just my point. Hey, folks. This is Charlie Sykes, host of the Bulwark podcast. We created the Bulwark to provide a platform for pro democracy voices on the center right and the center left for people who are tired of tribalism and who value truth and vigorous yet civil debate about politics and a lot more.

And every day, we remind you folks. You are not the crazy ones. So why not head over to the Bulwark dot com and take a look around. Every day, we produce newsletters and podcasts that will help you make sense of our politics and keep your sanity intact. To get a daily dose of sanity in your inbox, why not try a Bulwark plus membership free for the next thirty days to claim this offer go to the bulwark dot com slash Charlie Sykes.

That’s the bulwark dot com forward slash Charlie Sykes get through this together. I promise. Speaking of delusion, could we dip back into, deployable, delusion? Because you came up with a sound byte that I think is extraordinary. Have you been spending Are you, like, spending time listening to for your sins, for our sins, Candice Owens?

I’m kind of obsessed. So I wrote the big feature article on her. I punished myself through most of June listening to her and wrote it.

Remind our listeners who she is for people who are, like, who spend most of their time in the rational universe.

Yeah. So Candice Owens was a former turning point USA, which is the Maga College Republicans spokesperson who became a media darling on the conservative side, obviously, conspiratorial, a Bulwark woman you know, she looks good on TV. She’s a good presenter. And, you know, at times, she’s, like, floated the idea that she might run for office. Anyway, she got hired by Ben Shapiro’s Daily Warner, and now has, I think, very clearly, the second biggest podcast and YouTube show behind Shapiro himself — Great.

— on all of the right. It’s crazier shit. Bannons is in there too, but I but I think it’s pretty clearly that Candice the second biggest one. And so I listened to her whole podcast for a month and wrote a profile on it a couple months back, which you can read, it was called president Candice that kind of posited that she was a inheritor of the Trump spirit more than a lot of other of the imitators because she, like, like, Trump, like, kind of talks about, like, he’s obsessed with celebrities. Like, talks about pop culture stuff.

And, you know, it’s not you know, we we say that a lot of these politicians from imitators, like, like, Ron DeSantis is getting to the weird culture war stuff in a way that seems weird. Can’t let’s not can’t Right? She’s more pop culture like trump. So anyway, I don’t have to listen to her anymore because the article is already out, but I find myself when things happen, wanting to be, like, I wonder what Candice thought about this. Just to kinda check myself to be, like, it, like, is my Maga ballast.

And so the other day and so I have her in my podcast. Feed. And her new episode came up yesterday or Wednesday or whatever it was, and and I was pretty intrigued by the topic. Was not on the news. Let’s say.

Let’s listen.

That’s a pretty big one. The idea that the president of the United States was involved in having illicit affairs and the media was covering it up. And I’ll take it a step further. I’ll tell you what I heard. I heard directly from the mouth of a secret service agent whose name I cannot remember, but who works for Barack Obama and his family.

We said that while Barack Obama was in office, again, this is coming from a stupid service agent that they would help sneak young men into the White House. Oh, jeez. A secret of storage that Barack Obama was sleeping with these young men. And that was just a part of their job. Kim.

Unbelievably, the press never found out about this, which happens sometimes. Sometimes you can actually drop off crack cocaine at the White House, and they don’t know who did it.

Yeah.

So, yeah, the government can be super hush-hush when they want to be. And, of course, the media will help them worry those facts. Hey.

Wait. Wait. Wait. What? What are you talking about this?

What are you doing to our

podcast here? This is from this week. You know?

I feel like you have just come on the Bulwark work pocket and you take this truck. You just backed it up and you’re just, like, dump beep beep beep, dumping this toxic

shit into our ears. A million people are listening to this. I mean, a million people. This is, like, she she does huge numbers. And, yeah, that was that was her it was most of the show.

Week. That’s just a little fifty second clip. It was most of her, her her most recent show was covering the idea that Barack Obama is actually a secret homosexual. Oh, that’s okay. So Everybody knows about this.

They’re just sneaking voice and there’s a little bit of a QAnon wink there. It’s a little bit of a callback to Obama. It’s really a secret Muslim where’s the birth certificate. And it’s just right as just asking questions. It’s delicious.

It’s just right in the Trump deal. I’m gonna

go take a shower now. Is it possible that after this aired, know, she gotta call miss Owens. It’s Ben Shapiro on one. Ben Shapiro, you know, the who used to be the young conservatives intellectual who read books and things. Like, Ben wants to talk to you about that podcast.

Do you think that happened?

No. No. She got away with she defended Kanye when he was doing his Nazi anti Semitic stuff. Ben is is obviously, devout Jew. And so it then chastised her a little bit publicly when that happened.

The gentleman’s

a show

where she didn’t get suspended. What was that line in New York Times called him? That was something good. It was like the conservative It boy intellectually. Oh, yeah.

I was probably quoted in that story. Oh, you know what? I have a book of, like, my worst takes, but that’s, like, right on the top there right right next to my support for Ted Cruz. So I so I’m having this flashback. The morning, I woke up in a hotel in San Francisco.

K. Bear with me here.

Is this related to Barack Obama being home, Sarah Longwell.

You’re in San Francisco. I will be working in bench piero into this story. The reason I remember this day so well is because this was I wake up and I look around, I think, the hotel is on fire. The room is filled with smoke.

K. And, actually, it turns out there was just these wildfires that were covering San

Francisco in smoke and nothing was going on, but I remember and it woke me up real fast. And I also remember this is weird. That Ben Shapiro called me that day. And there was somebody on his website who had posted some clearly white supremacist really racist thing. And I think he was he was wanting to know, should I fire him?

Should I get rid of him? What should I do about it? You know, this is really bad. Great story. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So my take was, yes, of course. You should not be associated with this guy in any way whatsoever. I have no idea what happened, what he did with this guy.

But in this distant missive past, in this smokey San Francisco hotel room, I was talking to a Ben Shapiro that gave a shit about what people thought about it. Right? That he was actually concerned. Hey. There’s some racist stuff on my website.

Is this going to be a problem? Yeah. Fast forward to today. Clearly, it’s like Do

you fire the person? Do you remember?

I I don’t even remember. No. I don’t. It was not a close call. Right.

And I assumed he was calling me because he probably knew what I was going to say, and he wanted some validation.

Sure.

But I think I can safely say that he’s never gonna call me again, and he’s not gonna listen to my advice again. Because clearly, this is not something that he worries about. He does not wake up thinking. Boy, my whole reputation as the It boy of conservative intellectuals will be undermined if I have somebody like Candice Owen who’s defending Nazis and suggesting that Barack Obama brought boy toys into the White House. He’s gone what are the numbers on this?

What you know? I’ll tell you what the numbers are, by the way. Okay. Number seven, Apple Podcasts, political Secret Podcast. We do this.

Number seven, Bannon’s Warroom, number six NPR politics podcast, Number five, Candace Owens. Number four, Velshe’s banned book club. Number three, MSNBC’s prosecuting Donald Trump podcast.

Who’s that?

Number two. Political podcast, Secret Podcast chart, United States of America. This one.

Pretty good.

A bulwark podcast behind only Pod Save America.

I will just closing the loop, I Will Saletan Candice and fairness, just in the scary side of this, Candace, like, also has, like, a gazillion YouTube. You know what I mean? It’s it’s a video show. I I’m happy we’re meeting her on on the podcast and to close the loop just for listeners. I don’t want any information out there.

Barack Obama, not gay. Actually, two children. His wife is Michelle, a woman. No. I do have many DC friends who probably wish Brock I’m always gay.

But, he’s not. This whole thing was just based on some letter from college when he was like, you know, writing a letter about how he’s, like, exploring. It’s what, you know, and it’s just like, okay. Canstones was was, like, a liberal in college. So do you think that she might have a different point of view?

But,

Well, my favorite part is Kim. So it’s I got this from, you know, word-of-mouth from a secret service agent whose name I

can’t remember. I forget. I forget. We’ve got the source. I know it’s out there.

It’s in Hawaii somewhere. We’re gonna send investigators.

Secret Service agent gives me, like, this earth shaking news, I’m probably going to get the name.

I mean, it’s literally the Toronto certificate thing all over again. It’s just gay not Muslim. It’s the same playbook, you know, trump being like, I have a source. You know, we’re sending people to light. Track this down.

I’m it’s the same fucking thing. Twelve years later, time is a flat circle. Candice Owens doing the Donald Trump stick. It’s just it’s It’s funny, but it’s also sick. I mean, it’s sick.

How many people listen or listening to us?

Where do we go now? Should we talk about, jobless numbers? We talk about the, negotiations, with China. Should we talk about?

Java numbers are good. Hey. Why don’t how about the farm a deal? Pretty good, populous Donald Trump. Kept talking about how he was gonna take on the pharma companies, and he wasn’t one of these Paul Ryan conservatives.

He was a populist conservative, and he’s gonna lower drug prices, and then he folded like a cheap suit as soon as pharma started running some ads against him. And now Joe Biden, medicare negotiating with some lower pharma prices. That’s pretty that’s pretty good pivot from his Barack Obama Gaye straight into Joe Biden accomplishments.

So I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that Donald Trump will not campaigning in twenty twenty four on his, health care agenda. Actually, there there’s a good piece. I this is strange that I’m gonna say this because I’m not a I’m not a fan of the new republic, but they have a piece, but Michael Tamosky makes a great point. Trump’s trials don’t interrupt his campaign. They are his campaign.

This is a great point.

It is really a good point because people are saying, well, is this gonna interfere with his ability to run the campaign? I mean, is this gonna distract from from his detailed proposals on dealing with pharma. No. He’s not going to be talking about any well, he may, but nope. He could care less.

The point of his campaign is you know, I am on trial. I am your victim. You know, this is the deep state setting himself up for, you know, the retribution. But that’s absolutely right. And now, of course, this trial in Georgia is not just gonna be televised.

It’s going to be live streamed. I mean, the bad news is when that happens, are we gonna have lives at all in twenty twenty four? I mean, I know. Asking for a friend,

Yeah, seriously. People are like, oh, well, this will be fun watching twenty twenty six god willing. Our Constitution Republic is still standing, but, it would that is a great point. And I think it’s under appreciate it. I also think that it’s not great as you’ve pointed out many times in this podcast to be sitting in a courtroom and having to surrender to a judge and being at the mercy of their schedule all day long when you’re supposed to be running for president, but at the same time, it’s not as if, you know, he’s gonna be rolling out his policy proposals and that, unfortunately, he’s gonna have to go to court that day.

Yeah. I mean, in his trial is going to be, you know, will be the twenty twenty four version of the rallies. Yeah. He doesn’t get to go to the rallies, but he’s gonna be everywhere. I mean, everywhere — Right.

—

especially with the streaming. Okay. So, the debate feels like it was a million years ago. It

was totally meaningless.

There was a lot of speculation about, you know, Vivek Ramaswamy, the new hotness, the, you know, the the surge is coming. And, of course, there’s been a lot of buzz, but I’m not seeing the Vivic momentum bump out there, is it because, basically, the the fact that he’s a sanctimonious asshole kind of negated all of the the Maga stuff. What what is your take on Vivak?

Well, I don’t think so. My friends have been have been in iOS that actually, that has, like, events have a lot of energy. Yeah. But it’s a lot of Trump people. So I think part of the problem is, right, in a different world, let’s imagine Trump’s disappeared.

Right? And this is a DeSantis Ramaswanda Haley. Right?

Okay. Can I go there? K. That’s kinda my happy place for the moment. Okay.

Yeah. Let’s go there. Let’s go there. Give me a minute. Give me a minute.

There’s no Donald Trump. He’s going on. He’s just okay. Okay. I’m sorry.

Back in reality.

I think in that case, Vivek probably jumps from, like, seven to twenty. Yeah. And you’re like, wow. That’s what because that’s then more reminiscent of the old days where it’s Herman Cain when you jump up after a thing or call you for your re you know, I think he would have had that, but that bump was limited by the fact that Donald Trump has fifty percent of the primary vote. I just pulled up the five thirty eight average here because I wanna get this right.

So we’re today. Trump is fifty point three We got the Santas way down here. Way down. Way way down. Fourteen point eight Ramaswami nine point two Haley five point six.

So before the debate, You know, I’ll just pull up a random date, August ninth. Trump fifty three DeSantis fourteen are on this one, he’s seven Haley three. So Vivay can Haley bump up two points. Trump goes down three points. That’s all that happened.

Nothing happened. Like, it was just storm and fury and

taking a

fun to train for nothing. And and I just I think that goes back to what I was saying in the Murphy discussion. It’s just like, okay. And that was everybody’s big opportunity. We think the next debate’s gonna make a difference.

It’s on Fox Business. Are people gonna watch? Like, isn’t the shine gonna wear off these things? People are gonna watch the third debate. Without Trump, and why would trump go?

So I I don’t know. I do think that that Vivek, that he’s polarizing, right, and and So I assume that some people were turned off for the fact that he was, would you call him sanctimonious, swarming asshole? Yeah. Yeah. Something to something like that.

There’s a longer sentence there, but, yeah, that those pretty much.

Yeah. Fastile. And he had a

bad week. I mean, I I I think that to the extent that anybody was paying any attention. I mean, he’s just all over the map, but Did

you see Trump like going back Do you see this? Glennback asked Trump about Vivek for VP and Trump. He says some nice things about it. And then he’s like but, you know, Glenn, he’s getting a little controversial I bet. It’s like wow.

When trump’s out there going, maybe dial it back. Like, that’s that should be a wake up go.

Okay. So speaking of the opposite of my happy place here, the whole wild ride of somebody like Glenback. Glenback was was crazy where Crazy was fashionable with the conspiracy whiteboards and all of that stuff. Kind of kind of softened the ground for the Alex Jones is But then in twenty sixteen, there was this this apparent epiphany where where he said, oh, but I didn’t mean trump. And he sounded like a never trump for a while.

Right? You did. I could sorry for all of that and seemed to sober up and fly straight. And that lasted, what, about ten to fifteen minutes? And it’s like, no, I’m I’m back with the tribe.

What what happened with Glenn?

Yeah. Just to get a couple of these things here. So the Glenbeck cover was Glenbeck. Is sorry about all that?

Yeah.

The Ben Shapiro quote I was looking for then is worse than when we said, he was the cool kid’s philosopher. That’s in the New York Times. The cool kid’s philosophy.

I’m Sorry. Just throw

I mean, whoever wrote that has just gotta wanna split their throat right now. That’s that’s way worse. I ordered

an there and I feel that way. So

Glenbeck is sorry about the all that. I don’t know. I can’t get inside Glenbeck’s side, too. Yeah. This is one, while I’ve been suffering through Kansas, for the team.

I don’t know. It it worried me. I did get a text from my uncle about something that Glenn Beck said recently. And so that that made me a little bit concerned that he’s still out there. His tentacles are still out there.

But I I I don’t know if this was a if this was a gimmick. I do think that a lot of people genuinely were deeply scared and concerned about Donald Trump and then, you know, realized that they if they wanted to their career lavish lives to continue, they had to get back. And I think that’s probably what happened

It was their business model. I mean, what what was his company? What was the The blaze? Yeah. I mean, so, you know, he he it it based crashed and burned around him and he realized that that if he continued actually having a conscience, you know, and speaking rationally that he had no business model anymore.

And so he did what all these grifters do. Speaking of grimters, and you tell me whether this is unfair, I am somewhat fascinated by the Ron DeSantis Super PAC that raised a gazillion dollars being run by, a guy named Jeff Rowe, who, I encountered only briefly when he was running the Ted Cruz campaign. What is his deal? Because he seems like he’s sitting out there burning through a huge amount of cash and DeSantis’s credibility at the same time, but it’s kind of a great gig for him. I mean, although the headline today is that he’s begging for another fifty million dollars.

Unbelievable. Because

he hasn’t sufficiently tanked the Sandy’s campaign.

So I know Jeff pretty well. A big problem I just have with all of this is that a lot of the political consultancy is Bulwark. This whole spend golly thing is Bulwark. Things. It’s mostly candidates.

Really? Strategists happen on

the net

on the margins. Oh. You know, Trump strategist was a golf cat. Okay? So, like Okay.

Let’s just be real. Okay? I I think that this stuff matters on the margins. It matters in house races where people don’t know the candidates. Right?

But on the presidential level, So, you know, a lot of this is just PRBS. And so, you know, I I I don’t think you can blame Ron DeSantis tank on Jeff Rowe. Like, it’s Ron DeSantis fault. He’s a very unappealing person. I think that’s the main issue.

But there’s a lot of money going through there.

He has spent so far. This was as of August one. Thirty four million. Thirty four million For Ron DeSantis to have fallen to have lost like half of his vote share while he spent thirty four million. Now, the New York Times reporting Maggie Haberman and John Swan, He’s asking donors for another fifty million.

And it’s like, why are these people burning their money on fire? I want nothing more than to have the job of just telling rich people to stop giving money to these super packs and to just give me ten percent of whatever they were gonna give as a consulting fee and give the other ninety percent to unhouse to youth or something. I I I just, like, do something with your money that’s useful. Presidential campaigns, it is all worthless. Like, like, people get to know these candidates.

They are on TV interviews, they’re on radio interviews, they’re on their sports talk shows, they’re on people are talking about it in their lives, on Facebook, on TikTok, everywhere. Like, this race is everywhere. People make these decisions. What do you think a thirty second ad? It’s like Ron DeSantis, you know, stood up to Fauci in Florida.

Like, you think that’s gonna change people’s minds? These people already fucking know that. They all know that. This is not a state delegates race, like, where you do introductory ads. And yet, they spent thirty four million.

He’s lost half his vote share. And now these people are gonna keep giving him money. I mean, I guess it’s like, I guess I’m happy that they’re separating stupid rich people from their money, but, you know, at some level, it’s like, won’t somebody don’t give Jeffrey any more money? Like, what is the point of this?

I think we can say that. Don’t give Jeffrey any more money. But, I mean, and maybe this is not the most significant question, but but How do you spend that kind of money? I mean, where did it all go? Is it all, like, on private jets and motorcades and

Yeah. TV ads, jets, You know, when I went to that event in Tina, they had a five car motorcade, they had a bus, they had security, you know, so it’s So all of that cost money, they have these huge staffs that are door knocking. You remember that story about the how they had paid door knockers? Like, why do they think this is — They you really think that you’re gonna pay some burnout who’s twenty five, you know, twelve bucks an hour. To go knock on a stranger’s door and be like, hey, have you considered Ron DeSantis?

And then that person is then gonna change their mind from Donald Trump to Ron DeSantis? Just think logically about this. And, really, as I look at this article, he’s probably spent more than thirty four million, actually. That that was just through June. So we’re through July and August now.

So he’s probably already spent fifty Ron DeSantis another fifty. It’s just, like, it is astonishing that people have it’s like, were you all awake in twenty sixteen? Donald Trump’s campaign was his own jet, the golf caddies’ tweets in the rallies. He didn’t fucking run ads. He didn’t have a voter outreach program.

Like, Joe Biden didn’t ran out of money. Like, it was a Jim Cliborne endorsement in South Sarah Longwell, and and people being scared about Bernie being the nominee. And a consolidation from the other candidates to turn things around. I I sometimes I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. I’m like the only one that recognizes it’s big business, I guess.

When all this money’s on the line, everybody’s beach house are on the line, you know, nobody’s gonna go out there and say, hey. Like, maybe we shouldn’t spend so much money on presidential campaigns because it’s worthless.

And yet, there’s an old guy billionaire somewhere going. You know what you need to do? We need to hand out more matchbooks. Matchbooks with the message, with, like, the three point plan, Ron DeSantis, Because, you know, my first political campaign, I found that I could hand out matchbooks and everybody took the matchbook.

They knew my name.

And, you know, if we just had more I’m telling you, I’m willing to write out a big check if we put out more car tops. We need car tops. Thoughts.

Because remember, it’s like the —

In my game.

— driving through the neighborhoods with the with the bullhorn.

Yeah. Jeff, I’m really really concerned. We don’t have enough yard signs. We need more.

Daniel, we’re mass communicating.

You you you do know this. You you know that this trend that people are going, you know, I’m I’m I’m telling you, if we don’t have this, I just anyway. Alright. We have a long weekend. Which I am looking forward to.

Sirius late.

Same.

So I will see you on the other side, mister Miller.

I’ll see you on the other side, mister Sykes. I’m I’m looking forward to hearing about the first day of school.

I am as well. And thank you all for listening to this long weekend Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. We will be back next Tuesday, and we’ll do this all over again. The Bullbrook podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, and engineered and edited by Jason around.