Tim Miller: They’re Still Humoring Him

Welcome to the Bulwark podcast on Charlie Sykes. It is Friday, and it has been way too long to have Tim Miller back on Tim. Happy Friday. Happy weekend.

Wait on. You’re always bumping me for that Adam Kinzinger. What? Just because he, you know, fought in the military and was in Congress and, you know, has a snappy Twitter feed now. That’s fine.

Okay. That’s fine. If you if you have if you have a new love.

But you were always in my heart. I always knew that we were gonna do the catch up. And, of course, you’ve been being a road warrior, Ian, Iowa, this past week. I wanna talk to you about all of that. So, you know, one of the things I was thinking about as I was sitting down here with you, Tim, I I I need your advice on something or or just your thoughts on all of this.

I love that. I’ve I’ve thought about whether we need to have life coaching, sir. Yeah.

Yes. This is exactly what

I could be a good life coach. For it anyway.

One of the experiences, and and you wrote a whole book about this over the last seven years has been watching people, you know, lose their minds. And I don’t mean that some metaphorical, you know, existential way. I mean, losing their minds. People have just it is like you can feel as if all of the neurons are just fried themselves with all the crazy.

And every conversation that I’ve had over

the last couple of weeks Eventually comes back to, so how do you stay sane? How are you gonna get through the next year and a half? I mean, and this isn’t a part of you where you look at the calendar and you go, Oh my god. Okay. It’s going to be something.

I mean, it’s a year end, but we have to go through this again. And when I when I say that people are losing their minds, I mean, I think people are They emotionally are fried out by all of this. It’s the stupidity. It’s the pressure. It’s the relentlessness where all overwhelmed them.

Let’s be honest with it. I mean, people are listening to this podcast, but then they’re probably nodding their heads, but because there’s there has to be some days where you go. It’s it’s it’s just too much. So I don’t know what what is your life coaching? How do how do we how do we not become completely insane?

Yeah. Over the next year. And I’m thinking about, prospectively. You don’t know what I mean, by the way? Or do you do you think about the last seven years?

The number of people who something’s happened to them. And I understand it. I mean, you cannot be an emotional intellectual punching bag. You know, day in and day out we can week out without paying a price. So I don’t know.

Pips.

There’s a lot of broken people. I thought I was interested on the end COVID that, like, one person on every text chain I’m on has completely broken. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and sometimes that might mean going crazy and radical.

And sometimes that means I just don’t wanna talk about politics anymore, which I understand. That just completely checks out. You know, my negative side of what you’re saying is I I think part of the reason why it’s so daunting. Is it, like, there’s really no, like, light at the end of the tunnel, you know, which makes this a little different. Right?

At even in twenty sixteen and through twenty twenty, it’s like, oh, we got rid of this guy, and then things are gonna get better. And, like, it isn’t really there. There’s no light at the end of the tunnel, the Republican Party, and we can all quibble over how much everybody likes Joe Biden, and I I might like him a little more than most, but even still he’s an older.

Yeah.

And there’s no real know, it’s not like there’s some excite. Everybody’s so excited that we’re gonna get to move on to this other thing. And I think that that is is hanging over all of this. You know, for me, there are two things. One, and and I hope this is useful for listeners.

We’re gonna talk about this. It is actually good for my brain to be out there with the real people. And I think the the exception. I I I it did not give me I don’t mean this in the Polyana optimistic sense, as you’re about to find out. I didn’t go to Iowa oh, man.

People are really great and good out there and things are gonna turn out that. I don’t mean like that. But there’s just something about the the just parade of horribles on your social media feed and then the emails that gets to wear on me. And so, actually, being out there and kind of having an engagement and learning the nuance, and even if it’s a dark, you know, hearing about people’s real stories. I mean, I just I had a very interesting conversation with a woman who was there on January sixth.

And you can tell she’s one of the broken people, really. But She had a humanity about her. She didn’t end up going into the capital. She didn’t do anything, you know, she’s one she’s one of the ones who’s been fooled. And we had very long conversations and in some ways that was nourishing for me even though it wasn’t hopeful if that makes sense.

The other big advice I have for you and for everybody is it’s nice to have friends and interests that aren’t politics. And I just, this has been a big part of my move here. Being in New Orleans. I’ve got a lot of pals here that don’t about that don’t follow this shit. Don’t listen to us.

I’ve got a couple of pals who have listened to us. Hi, guys. But most of them don’t listen to us, and I like that. And, and I just think that is absolutely necessary. And when I meet people who say, I love you from MSNBC, my advice is always.

Maybe one hour less a day. I know I’m not I hope that my the boss is not listening to this. But just like one hour less a day, finding something else, read some

fiction, just just different for everybody

going, you know, bird watching

for some people,

you know, LSU football’s coming up for me. Whatever it is for you. I think, you know, I my my book reading is I do one homework one one treat. Mhmm. So I just go back and forth on my book reading.

I give myself a treat so that something totally set from all this. So anyway, that’s my life advice.

Yeah. Let me let me maybe pick up right there because, you you you made a couple of different I I do think that one of the reasons why people are, you know, feeling the pressure right now is is exactly as you, you put your finger on it you know, back in twenty sixteen, and actually in in twenty twenty, we we could all sort of we could cling to the illusion that, okay, you know, Once this is over, we can get back to our lives. Right? That you see the end. You see that light of the at the end of the tunnel.

And I I certainly remember that, you know, people saying, well, are you gonna do next year? And I say, hey, you know what? I’ll think about next year because we just gotta get through this, and then then things are gonna be okay. And and four years later, was thinking the same thing. Now It is hard to think that that it’s ever going to get back to normal.

And I think that’s part of why it feels even heavier after all of this. So that’s number one Number two, getting out in the world. I know exactly what you’re talking about. I remember, you know, a few years back. And I, you know, like you, we we we can get caught up in social media and and start to think that that’s the world.

Yeah. And, you know, the the the kind of the vitriol and the back and forth and everything. And I actually remember being down, I think I think it was I think it was was it Tucson or or Phoenix? Was it some event? And we’re having an interesting conversation about politics.

I remember being actually surprised to realize that, hey, this is the real world. These are real people, and they’re not crazy. They’re reasonable. And we’re having this conversation. And it was really refreshing.

So I know exactly what you’re picking up on. As far as as the therapy, I, you know, everybody does have something different. I I do think it’s a good idea to turn it off once in a while. You know, I try to cultivate a sense of humor about all of this, which is very, very difficult. And somebody, how can you laugh when American democracy is burning?

If you don’t laugh, American democracy will burn, and you will burn with it. Okay. That’s not that’s number one. But in terms of, like, you know, the way that I step out of it, you mentioned your your reading habits. I read fiction, but also weirdly enough.

And maybe this is just idiosyncratic. Is therapeutic for me to read histories about other dysfunctional periods of history to kinda realize, okay. We are not the only people who live through a shit storm. You know, it used to be really, really bad. My favorite television show is Babylon, Berlin, nineteen twenty nine, Berlin, because it’s kind of escapist, but also it’s realized, you know, you realize that, okay, you know, things have, you know, been worse in in in the past.

It is important to do all that. And also, No. You moved to New Orleans. I am have I talked to you about this? I’m kinda preparing for a major lifestyle change.

It’s kinda kinda big for me.

Oh, no. No. I don’t know if you have talked to me about this. We’re doing it live.

I am about to have a teenager in the house again.

Really?

I’m about to go to soccer games

again. I love that for you.

My French grandson has decided that I am the Ferrari of granddads, and he wants to come and live here and go to school for the next semester. Now assuming that all of the papers are all approved and all the passports and everything, fingers crossed. You know, at the end of August, I’m gonna have a teenager in the house. Wow. Again.

I mean, the teenager Awesome for him. I mean, god, America, you know, I sometimes we get down in America. America is great. There’s a lot of great reasons to come here despite all of the problems we have but he’s gonna leave France for Wisconsin. I don’t that’s a little bit of a confusing choice for me, but I’m open to hearing why.

Well, it’s going to be interesting to see, you know, this country through his eyes. Because, I mean, obviously, he he’ll have a different perspective, but he’s very excited. I mean, he loves soccer. He signed I’ve signed him up for the suburban soccer leagues and everything. He visited the school, the middle school and everything.

And because his mom, my daughter, is an American citizen. He and his brother just got their American citizenship. Last week.

Got it.

And so he is a dual citizen, and he’s very excited. I obviously, you know, this is one of those things where I’m like, okay. This is exciting. I’m I’m proud for him. I hope we don’t let him down.

You know what I mean? I’m mad. I hope the experience is a good experience.

Okay. This duel is kinda nice there. You know, you wouldn’t wanna come back and, and come back to the Donald Trump, Maga Idiocracy autocracy. That would be a poorly timed move.

But I remember thinking, and, you know, when this idea first came up, you know, it’s it seemed a little bit fanciful. And and now he’s he’s coming. And And, you know, part of me is thinking, well, okay. This is I get this is a flashback. It’s kind of a do over bing dad type thing, but but also it’s like having for me, having to go back into real life, having to go to events, like soccer matches and parent conferences, and meet other kids’ parents and things like that.

So this gonna be

I’m excited for this. We should start to have a segment at the end of the Friday pod where I get an update on your, on your on father head part two.

Okay. So let’s let’s talk about the the news of the week. And I wanna talk about your eye out with him. I’m gonna put this in the category of the least surprising story of the week. That Donald Trump announces that, hell no, he’s not gonna sign that pledge just supported the Republican nominee, which is the requirement to be, on the debate stage, which he was never going to be at.

So damn, It’s interesting to me watching all these other Republicans, you know, sign the pledge and sign the pledge because they want to be loyal Republicans and don’t wanna be, you know, they don’t wanna be considered a rhino, and they don’t wanna, you know, get on the wrong side of Magga. And there’s Donald Trump that basically goes, yeah, screw it.

Okay. Let’s start. These people are so pathetic, Charlie Sykes it’s just like really gobsmacking kind of. And and it’s it’s like we live through all this. Dave?

Nothing.

Yeah. That’s why it’s exhausting. I’m sorry.

Yeah. We spent the first ten minutes, you know, having to do some little therapy because it’s like, we already did this. I we did the pledge thing back in twenty sixteen. I was with Jeb when we were like, this is so stupid that right your friend writes previous making us do this. And he’s taken the train up to New York to try to get Donald Trump who’s never signed a contract that he’s kept his entire life.

He thinks this non binding piece of papers gonna make some fucking difference. And we’re in a dunkin donuts in New Hampshire, and Jeb just, like, writes down on a on a on the table. It’s, like, voted Republicans since nineteen, whatever. I don’t wanna I forget what hit what the year was that he turned eighteen, and, and, you know, tweeted it out. And he’s just like, there.

That’s my there’s my pledge. Asshole. And it’s like Donald Trump, they walk into this bait every time where it’s like, oh, you know, if we butter them up, if we if we’re just nice to them, if we just try please. And if we just if we just try to keep the lion in the cage, you know, then maybe he’ll behave better next time. It’s like, how can you still think this?

How how could these guys have been fooled by this? And, you know, Nikki Haley, I don’t know. Did you see this one? What she did?

Yeah.

I did. I almost I clicked on it almost I don’t know why. Maybe I’m the idiot. I had, like, a false sense of hope of something of that maybe that Nikki Haley had, you know, an Iota of integrity left. Because the tweet was a teaser, and it said, you know, Nikki Haley signs pledge with one caveat.

And I was like, oh, what could that caveat be? You know, I clicked on it. I was like, maybe she was like, if the nominee has been convicted three times of felonies. Yeah. Right.

If the nominee is convicted of insurrection against the country, then maybe I want. No. In the plan she crossed out, you know, I I’ll pledge to support the Republican against president Biden and and replaced it with president Harris. It’s like, oh, that’s so clever. So clever.

So cute. And it’s, like, so funny that you’re making a mockery of this. As you, for some reason, have decided to pledge your undying loyalty to somebody that could not give a shit less about you or this country or the constitution or an about. So anyway, the whole thing is so pathetic.

So we started off with self therapy, and now I’m having PTSD flashbacks because, you know, to, the moment that Ryan’s previous, you know, begged, unbended knee for Donald Trump to sign the pledge. I actually had a flashback to exactly where I was standing when I was walking the dogs talking on my cell phone to Brains Priba. And he was telling you about this, and I was expressing my opinion on, like, Ryan, why are you doing this shit? And, you know, back then, you you think about the real turning points. They were so terrified back then.

That Donald Trump would run as a third party candidate that they had to do this. This was their way of keeping him in the tent, which as you point out, you know, is is an absurd, you know, episode of of self delusion, and they’re still doing it. There’s so many years later, Again, when I say least surprising story, Donald Trump has made it clear that you either nominate me or I will burn the whole thing down. Right. I mean, there’s no third option.

Donald Trump will never graciously concede. He will never graciously acknowledge that he lost. He will not graciously support the nominee of the Republican Party if it’s not him. And this is really not any different than the position that they were in in two thousand sixteen. And as you point out, they’ve learned nothing.

Actually nothing.

This is where just related to this, actually, the political, side of this. This is where I’ve come around kind of changing my view on this, on this, the conventional wisdom still among, I think, the media class and the never Trump elite classes that anybody would be better than Trump for Republicans. I can’t even among Democrats. A lot of Democrats. Right?

I just feel one.

You mean as a in terms of electability.

Electability. In terms of electability. Okay. Right. This exactly this point that you bring up about how he’s gonna burn the whole thing down regardless.

I’m, like, less convinced that that’s even true anymore. Right? I mean, DeSantis’s campaign has been so poor. We’ll talk about that. There’s nobody else.

I mean, I guess Tim Scott, like, this notion that Tim not gonna win. I think it’s it’s it’s preposterous. And and and if one of these guys was to beat Trump or if one of these guys was to you know, win in some kylie contested effort. The idea that Trump is gonna send his mega forces out to vote for them. You know, then maybe there’s a part in the play.

And there’s a lot of you know, potential interesting things to discuss no matter how depressing it is over the next year. So there are a lot of ins and outs and what have yous. Yeah. But that said, it’s just it’s kind of hard to see anybody else I being able to put together a better coalition as crazy as that seems because of, you know, a Trump’s nature. Right?

Like, that there’s no there’s nothing that you can make him sign that that would not make him be, you know, be a happy warrior. You know, I guess with the exception of you know, potentially a pardon.

You know, I I I heard you make that point the other day, and I I went to the first. Then I thought, no. You’re, you know, you’re you’re right, especially with this dynamic we’re describing, you know, in terms of electability. I mean, in terms of just substance, no one is as bad as Trump. No one is worse than Trump.

I am sorry. I’m willing to die on that, including Ron DeSantis. You mean, because Trump is uniquely awful, dangerous, everything. But in terms of electability, That’s where that whole argument, you know, falls apart because, you know, which nominee will be leading a non split party. So, you know, again, Donald Trump is never gonna debate, is he?

He’s not gonna never gonna get on that debate stage.

I don’t think so. The only exception I could think about to this he he’s definitely not gonna do the sec the second one is at the Reagan library, and he definitely won’t do that because some internal drama, some story that, you know, even the closest watchers of us don’t remember, but the Trump members of his lizard brain is when the what Ronald Reagan Institute, you know, said that they didn’t want to have Trump’s name on something or whatever. So there’s some of Donald Trump. And that’s what he remembers more than anything. He doesn’t know any policies, but he remembers lights.

So he won’t do the second one. I think it’s ninety eight percent likely that he doesn’t do this first one. And I think that the right thing is just to walk. Because you’re

not coming to Milwaukee.

Yeah. And and and so the question is, does, like, the anger of, you know, of of normal transmit as as you and Olivia, have put it, like sitting and sitting in Mar a lago. You know, just kind of watching all of them talk about him two times. Can he not handle not having the spotlight on him and not proving that he is the alpha male? That’s the only thing that makes me think.

Maybe it’s more like a fifty fifty chance that the third one. By the third one, also, the number gets higher. So a lot of the riff raff from his perspective, from our perspective, you know, the noble candidates, will be off the stage by then. You know, it’s hard to imagine that the Aceahutchinson of the world who are struggling to get to this first that we’re gonna get to the third highest threshold. So I don’t know.

Fifty fifty on the third debate, but I that seems exceedingly unlikely before that.

I guess I’m I’m I’m more bearish on all of this. Now I I know that you and I have a somewhat different perspective on Chris Christie, but part of my reason for thinking he’s not gonna debate is because he does not wanna be on that stage with Chris Christie. Right. And I have to say I would not want to get your your take on this. I mean, I’m I have been a huge you know, Charlie Sykes Skeptic, but I was willing to listen, but, man, he is he is breaking it.

Yeah. I know your you’re kind of anti Christie from the foundation, but for boy back. The o g. But I’m I’m looking at these clips of of him on social media and I’m going Whoa. I mean, he has dialed this thing up to a ten and is just pounding and pounding.

Yeah. Con him a honey baked ham and the whole thing. I mean, I’ll hold. Yeah. The, I’ll say two things about Christy, one positive and one one concerning.

The here’s the pa the positive is Thank god. He’s just doing what he’s doing. And and I just and I think that just as a net comment. It’s better to have him out there speaking the truth on Fox News. Speaking the truth on that debate stage in two weeks than otherwise.

And and I think that he is doing it. See what you want about, Lisa, will heard. You know, I watched I I I was at this cattle call in Iowa, and it’s, like, Ace goes up there, and he just, you know, god love him. He just doesn’t have it. Right?

He’s just not making the cake. Right? So it’s kind of like what’s the point then. You’re not gonna make the case. You put those three in the same camp.

It’s like Christie is clearly the one that’s making the strongest anti trump case. And there is a value in having that case being made and and having some people hear it, you know, whether he’s a convincing messenger, I’m a little bit skeptical, but it’s better the people here than don’t. Here’s the thing that worries me a little bit, though. Can he help himself if he is on this stage in two weeks without trump? Is he I mean, is he just gonna be machine gunning the field, and then you get to New Hampshire.

And, you know, if we just kinda play this out from a strategic standpoint, I think right now, Chris, if you had to put a gun to my head, I’m like, who finished the second New Hampshire? It seems like Chris Christie to me. Wow. And and Wow. Okay.

Yeah. Wow. It’s right. But I lived through this. Right?

So now I go back to my John Hunt experience. Right? We we finished third actually to run Paul, but it was a close third. It was I think it was, you know, Mitt was in the forties, and like we’re on Paul seventeen, huntsman sixteen, something like that. I’m going from memory.

The gap might have been a little wider. But okay. So let’s see if that happens this time. Right? And it’s like trump forty Christie nineteen, you know, whoever DeSantis or Tim Scott or whatever fourteen.

It’s like, did that help if the purpose of this was to stop Trump? Did it help for you to take that one fifth of the New Hampshire electorate that kind of likes the moderate truth telling guys that I worked for. I mean, all my guys guys. McCain Huntsman, Jeb. Yeah, I didn’t work for Kasek, but that, you know, that voter that was, like, a McCain Huntman Kasek or Jeb voter If you take all of them, but then you don’t have anywhere to go after that, you know, did you actually kind of hurt the cause of stopping Trump in the in the long run?

You know, it’s complicated. And despite my my distaste for Christy, personally, I had there are a couple folks over there that still talk to me. And, you know, I it does seem like they’re aware

of that.

So it may you know, hopefully, Christie is a kamikaze guy on Trump and these concerns I have get fleshed out between now and New Hampshire, but those are the concerns I have.

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Okay. So let’s talk about your big story this week. You were here in Iowa. You were, covering them, and I wanna I wanna hear about this, but, you had a really thing piece that got a lot of traction, in the in the bowler about, the, what, plan b or plan c or what, what, what are we at Ron DeSantis people.

Emergency break glass, I think. I think it’s the emergency break glass.

Remind us what they’re they’re thinking is for the long game

Well, I was surprised this was happening. So I was in a and I’m in Iowa, and, I was following around Vivak Ron DeSantis, and just as a brief aside. So I did three campaigns in Iowa, and the people from the McCain run the era are just off the field. And I and I think that’s kind of an untold story. It’s just like people that worked on those campaigns.

Like, they just aren’t involved in any of these campaigns. Like, most of the So I was calling all of them doing the who should I talk to, should I talk to, and they would put me to other people who are either younger or a little crazier or whatever, you know, who are still working for somebody’s campaign. And one of those conversations, Ron DeSantis Superback person was talking at length to me about how, you know, during this reset, they’ve gotta think about, you know, short term and getting some momentum back, but they also gotta consider the long term. And I was like, what do you mean by that? I was like, well, you know, in Iowa, if you if you get second in Iowa, people are like, he’s dead.

That. Is that really true? You know, we’ve got all these legal cases coming out with Trump, and maybe there’s an argument for sticking around and getting seconds and thirds and sec and and going into the proportional states and amassing delegates. And we have the money to play the long game in a way that other candidates don’t. And I’m sitting there listening.

And I was like, oh, that’s an interesting thought exercise and all that. I was like, but do you got are you guys, like, seriously talking about that and having meetings?

I mean, so the long game you basically, you know, pile up delegates. And then what is the latest version of this magical thinking that that you’re there when what unicorn happens?

Yeah. Okay. So so it’s like step a, get as many delegates as you can, not a majority. Right? Because trump’s gonna have the majority.

And this is basically conceding is gonna win the most of these races. Right? So you get in a as many delegates as you can. And then step b is that Jack Smith does your dirty work you, or we can get into the trial dates and all that. But if you’re looking at these spring dates, you know, and step c is a question mark.

Okay. I just just trump decide to get not run because he’s this key cut a deal, does he go to jail and and does he not run for jail? Magical. But easy. So it’s like, a, we get delegates.

B. Jack Smith trials are happening in the spring. C is a question mark. D, we have a fight on the convention floor. Where we wanna have as many delegates as possible so that we have, you know, negotiating power or strength, whatever as we try to figure out who in Milwaukee you know, is the actual nominee because it can’t be the guy in an orange jumpsuit.

I mean, this is just fantastical thinking. I mean, it’d be great for the Secret Podcast. We gotta a lot to talk about. Right? We could we’d be doing live streams all night as a as these guys shiv each other on the convention floor

in Milwaukee. But, An open convention. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to me, the big takeaway was, hey, I mean, this it’s pretty bleak for DeSantis if you guys are even gaming this out. Point. I mean, it’s pretty we haven’t even had a debate yet.

You know, it’s pretty

It’s like that they would say this. And I checked. I was like, are you sure I can Okay. Like, is this just a thought exercise, or can I say that you guys are thinking about this? He’s like, you can say we’re thinking about it.

I was like, okay. I I mean, I I I just the whole thing was a gump smacking to me. That I Will Saletan. It’s not a zero percent chance. Right?

I mean, it is crazy and fantastical thinking. And We can’t we can’t possibly be this lucky to have a Republican convention foreflight with Donald Trump in jail. I mean, you know, pass the champagne if that’s happening, but, but it’s not a zero.

The reason why it’s not zero why nothing is zero is because something truly amazing and unprecedented is going to happen next year. Right? I mean, something I think it was David from who who tweeted out that Donald Trump is is on track to be, convicted of felonies and to win the nomination maybe in the same month. So we are in this bizarre moment that anyone who says for sure they know what’s going to happen We don’t. I mean, everybody’s making it up as they go along.

Right?

Yeah. I’m right. I mean, I I I well, I think the one thing that we know for sure at this point is that Donald Trump’s gonna win a lot of states. Yeah. But even that, you’re looking at this and you had this in the newsletter today that Jack Smith was looking at what was it?

January third? I don’t have in front of me.

January second. Yeah. Let’s go.

Yeah. So I was the fifteenth. Right? And this DC judge seems very amenable and, you know, listen to the Thursday podcast if you want to go in-depth on how all that, you know, shakes out from a legal standpoint But, like, let’s say that happens. You know, I do think Iowa is probably the place where he’s weakest, and, you know, he’s on trial during the is, and and maybe somebody else can sneak out a win there.

And then, okay, then he wins some of these other states, then he’s still on trial. And then it’s, like, there’s another trial looming, and and he can’t go on campaign and there aren’t cameras in the courtroom. They’re just are a lot. Yeah. We are very much in our uncharted territory.

Here. I guess is so I I think having complete confidence in predicting anything is foolish. That said, I guess we can have a lot of confidence in predicting that it’s it’s not like Donald Trump’s just gonna go away. Right. You know what I mean?

It’s not like he’s gonna lose, you know, start finishing in fourth place and that’s knows not happening.

Among the anecdotes that, you tell about your trip to Iowa, when the one that stuck out to me was you were you went to to an event that the DeSantis people had to kind of, a small event, and turns out not many people were there. And I I think your picture made the drudge report or something like that of you know, how how sparse the crowd was.

It was actually darker than that, Charlie. I I I had a moment where I was like, am I the bad guy here? Because it was, the picture was at the top of the dredger Ford and then also then Trump belated it. And I was like, oh, no. I’ve given aid and comfort to the content, to the enemy.

Tim Miller is now a content provider to true social.

I felt bad about that for about two minutes. And then I was like, you know who really should feel bad about this is around this campaign. I mean, they invited us to they invited the media to this event. All just take a picture. It’s not my fault that only forty people showed up to your event.

Now the dazzling detail, though, that you had, was that Ron DeSantis shows up in a five car motorcade. Now this is the downsized, you know? So he didn’t actually take a private jet when a helicopter there or whatever. But this is the trim down slim down campaign. This is part of the problem, was was Rhonda Sanders, Ron DeSantis, you know, wanted to do the bigfoot campaign.

And since we’re in the in the PTSD, sort of reminded me of where Scott Walker was back in twenty fifteen where he was spending money, like, crazies campaign was run by, Rick Wylie.

Yeah.

And their burn rate of money was just staggering. And I think maybe in part the thinking was Let’s look as big and impressive. We have to look like the front runner. And, of course, he was he was done by September, and by the way, walker family in, you know, inner circle. They to this day hate Rick Wylie.

I mean, they just think he f them over, spent all of the money.

He’s on the Haley campaign now. So, you know, the Grifts continue Perfect.

Just perfect.

Great job on that pledge. That’s definitely gonna move you from three to four percent.

Okay. So the other dazzling detail that’s that from your account is is, you know, the Ron DeSantis does his I mean, look, I I it’s it feels like an old story now that Rhonda Santis is really kind of bad at this, that he’s not that that great. What was interesting was your account of, Vivik Ramaswamy, who I think is this, cycles, you know, charlatan fake candidate in many ways. But he’s playing well on the on the field, isn’t he? They like him.

Yeah. They they like him. Right? So this is I’m not making any moral judgments about evic.

He’s touching all of the erogenous stuff. He knows how to do the same.

It was a back to back event. So I see the scientists in the morning. It’s I I go two hours, one way from Duane, then two hours the other way. You know, they’re both rural kind of areas, but to see, just this area was actually more, you know, there are more towns around Tama than there are around this place. Like, where I saw Vivic, this place was called Vail.

I’m friends with the old, an old chief of staff of a Republican governor there, and I was asking her about about the about these events. I’m like, just getting her sense. She’s like, I I didn’t know Vail existed. I was like, stupid stabbed on the go. That’s how small it is.

So Vivik is out there in the middle nowhere. And he’s in Bfe. And his crown is three times as big as runs. His little stump speech is I mean, a thousand percent more engaging Ron DeSantis, people are into it. Yeah.

They’re standing ovations, they’re cheers, Now these people are actually gonna vote for him. You know, he’s thirty seven. I think he’s just trying to be eight actually. He’s thirty seven when I was there. He’s he’s Hindu The third question was about being Hindu.

His answer to that was strange credulity a little bit. You know, he kind of He goes, well, I see us really as all in the same team, and I I know we believe in one god, and I believe in Judeo Christian values. I’m going out if I’m an evangelical, I’ll come sit there listening into that and be like, I don’t I’m not sure that was a convincing man answer.

They were queasy about Mormons. Exactly. Like Hindu. Yeah.

You know, with the elephant god, gunny, you know, okay. I I have respect for all all cultures, but I’m just saying Talk to me about Vishnu. I I don’t see that.

Also, his attitudes about pork seem to be problematic. Yeah.

It’ll be interesting to see how he does at the State Fair this weekend. So I I don’t actually think he’s necessarily gonna win, but his message, which is very trumpian, you know, very Jonathan Last hostile to Ukraine, you know, hostile to elite culture in every in every sense. It was hitting their origin zones, as you said, and and If he was a forty four year old evangelical, I’d be looking at that and going, this guy is clearly in second. He would have dusted DeSantis by now. But you know, because of his his drawbacks, you know, who who knows if he’ll be able to win people over.

The other interesting element to this, at which shows really this kind of going back to our first question about why this isn’t going away in the deep rot here is that the VIVA command, the people I talked to, many of them were they like Trump. And there was one guy in particular who started talking to me about how he thinks Trump is still in charge of the of the nukes in the military. And then he says to me, and I was like, oh, okay. Interesting. Interesting.

So you’re gonna be at Trump then. But, like, let’s say Trump can’t run or something. Who would you be second? And he thinks about it for? I was like, I don’t know.

Maybe this guy. I went back to the Vivic staff, and I was like, good news. The guy that thinks Trump is still in charge of the the military, you’re you’re number two for him. Oh, you can mark mark him down on your on your caucus account. But, at, you know, there are a lot of trampy people there.

And Ron DeSantis, that wasn’t true. Right? Like, it was a lot of more kind of out as an older kind of Republican types, Chuck grassley types, people that are playing the field. Yeah. That, a, that’s that’s gotta be a concern for DeSantis, but b, it sort of shows that, like, those those folks aren’t they’re not gonna snap back.

Right? Like, maybe Vivic isn’t the next, you know, the second coming or whatever, but but somebody that can offer them you know, that, nationalist grievance mongering is really gonna be it.

So what do you think is going on with Mike Penn? I was, I just retweeted something. I think it was from, David French, who had a sound bite of Mike Pence being heckled by some super mega people who are telling him, you know, you’re a traitor. Why did you, you know, why did you betrayed the country, you know, on on January sixth and and Pence’s answers. I don’t know.

It sounded pretty good. And, you know, is this a new Mike Pence? Is this, the temporary Mike Pence? Is this Mike Pence’s moment? What the hell?

Mean, he look, this guy’s not gonna get the nomination. I mean, this is this is not the party that’s going to, you know, go for the guy that defied, Donald Trump What is your take on Mike Pence? Because, I mean, he he’s been a weak hit for for years, and now suddenly it’s like, dude.

Yeah. I think it is happening more than we think even. I read that there’s a video from the fair.

That’s when

you’re talking about sharing. It’s worth noting that that many people push back. Now this isn’t a Republican event. It’s at the state fair. So you have a mixed crowd or some Democrats there and and but I that’s a good sign just while we’re talking positive signs.

You know, the the this is still a minority. Unfortunately, it’s a majority of

the Republican party. Somebody stood up and said, you should shut your mouth

to something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s good.

That there that that’s happened. There’s still some Iowa nice out there. You know, it’s not a total dark wasteland. Mhmm. But I think this is happening to him a lot.

That woman that I mentioned in the in the lead in, Donna was her name You said she’d been there on January sixth, and and she was disappointed that the other candidates weren’t sticking by Trump even Like, as we’re on this podcast going, why don’t these guys have balls? You know, Don donna’s out there going, why are they sucking up to him harder, anyway. But she said that she told me a little anecdote about how she yelled at Mike Pence recently at an event. So I think it gets yelled at kind of a lot. Basically, is what I’m saying.

You do get on the campaign trail having been on some loo a bunch of losing campaigns. You get a sense of freedom. Like, once you kind of accept you’re likely fate.

That’s what I was wondering.

Yeah. I thought that Jeb’s, like, best days of his campaign were the very first days. I thought we had a couple of really good days, and then he gets overshadowed by Trump, and it’s like, it’s a free fall for a while. But around Christmas, when people aren’t paying attention, and the only thing people remember is please clap, and that’s fine. Whatever.

It is what it is. But but he had some very, like, convicted moments, right, where, you know, that people aren’t gonna remember, but nobody’s really gonna remember these Mike Pence moments probably either. That, like, where where he was able to just say what he really fucking thought, you know, about Trump and and where, you know, I think that he made the moral argument And I think that that’s probably happening, depends here.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s that makes sense. Because he does feel more comfortable in his skin, which is something that I never would have said about Mike Pence. For.

Yeah. Like, right now

kind of awkwardly is, like, naturally awkwardly comfortable. If that makes sense, I still at the most match a real person, but but it’s like it’s like he’s owning his awkwardness. Did you see the little exchange between him and his wife or his wife’s like, I wanna go see the bunnies And he’s like, yeah, I don’t think I’m gonna do that. And it was it was kind of like, it’s kind of frank and comfortable. I don’t know.

There was something about it where He

said, no to mother.

He said, no to mother. It’s like he’s really stan you know, yeah, you can stand up to a pro desert. When he says, no to mother, you know that Mike Pence was really feeling his oats.

It is interesting that you put it that way because that was kind of my reaction to watching Chris Christie that he’s becoming more and more comfortable with this. He thought this is what I’m doing. I I don’t need to overthink it. In politics, obviously, there comes that moment like, oh my god. I I could win you.

It might be close. I better watch what I say. Right? And and you have to trim your sales. Right.

And so that’s when you will inevitably become tight and you will become programmed and you stick to your talking points. At a certain point, you go, effort. I’m laying it out. And there is that feeling of liberation. It’s the Hillary crying.

It’s Hillary crying in New Hampshire. It’ll got her comeback after Obama Beater and Iowa. That feeling of liberation’s there for sure.

Okay. Small trigger warning for everybody here because No. I I I need to have an earnest moment. Okay.

Great.

We sort of avoided that so far in the in the podcast. No. They they’re really serious. You know? Okay.

So Next week, you know, we’re gonna have these indictments coming down from Georgia. You know, obviously, that will be the big story of the week. Bonnie Willis is gonna come down with multiple maybe racketeering charges. Might not just be Trump. It might be the, you know, whole bunch of coconspirators.

But here’s the deep breath. Here’s the earnest moment. The level of the vitriol that is now being aimed at the prosecutors, the judges, and against Fanny Willis, from Trump and Trump world. Is in many ways just another page from his playbook, but but the intensity The intensity and the vileness of the attacks are ramping up. And what’s interesting about this And again, interesting is a is is a weasel word.

What is alarming about all of this is that the threat of violence has been real and growing for some time. But now it feels like we are coming to a real ignition point. So this week, we had that confrontation in Utah where a guy who’d spent way too much time online and had lots of guns was Did you

see this dude’s Facebook page?

Yes. I did. Lunatic shit. And very clearly, he was tracking like anyone who was involved in opposition to Donald Trump or into cases against Donald Trump, Alvin Bragg, all of those people. He was basically breathing threats and whether he would have acted on it.

We don’t know, but the FBI had no choice other than to to check him out and then leaving that aside. But just a reminder, There are millions of people out there with guns who are being destabilized, who are being jind up by this rhetoric And in a normal rational world, there would be voices out there saying, this is the time when we need to be sober, when we need to be careful, we need to be restrained, none of that is happening. So what do we have, Donald Trump, who has decided that a climate of of chaos, violence, and fear works frame. He’s okay with that. And so he’s going to be he’s going to be stoking it.

Now down in in Georgia, they’re actually running ads attacking Fony Willis. I’m not carrying any briefer, but he’s actually now it’s one thing for Donald Trump to say that, you know, these racist executors, by which he means they’re black. So he’s he’s gonna try to weaponize the race of Alvin Bragg and Fony Willis because that’s what he does. But he’s gone one step beyond that. The funny Will Saletan an affair with a gang leader she was prosecuting.

Now that’s like she’s she’s not just, you know, a black woman. She’s a black woman. And you know what he’s saying here?

Yeah. Prostitute or whatever. Yeah. So Yeah. And it was, like, it was fair at the drug dealer or something, gang member.

I forgot to quote

what where are we going on all of this? And and we we’re still only in August. What is the level going to be at in January, in February, in net? What is it gonna be like next summer. And you know that the I mean, we we’ve gone from spending years worried about the threat of you know, international terrorism, Islamic terror, radical Islamic terrorism.

And now the real threat is us, is domestic terrorism being stoked by the former president of the United States, and I I’m I’m sorry. This is where I become earnestly. The alarm bells ought to be ringing off the charts. And so we talk about what’s gonna happen next year. One of the things that we need to factor in is just the contingency of an act of violence.

Because, again, it doesn’t take ten million people with guns. It can it just takes a handful. And we don’t know what’s going to happen, but I think that there is that danger that we become so numb to what Donald Trump is doing, the threats, the attempt to intimidate and obstruct and everything, that we think Well, okay. This is, you know, same old same old when, in fact, no. The context is more dangerous.

The language is more dangerous. And I don’t know where we’re going here, but the The Fony Willis attack feels like we’re in kind of new territory, maybe not new territory. And I don’t know about you, Tim, but I’d see no pushback from any of his opponents or Republican saying, hey, guys, whatever you think about this, This is not the moment to be engaging in this kind of reckless behavior.

Yeah. This is why I was going in some ways where it’s worse than the rhetoric. Yep. But it’s also worse in that there’s no sending voices in Mega World in Ron DeSantis media world. Because I think back so before January sixth, the most heightened fear I had for violence was kind of late in that primary season in twenty sixteen when Trump was doing the rallies when he was go when was like, yeah.

Fuck him up. Yeah. I remember. Yeah. He had a period of time where at the rallies raised encouraging people in the crowd to hit protesters, you know, saying, I’ll pay for your legal bills.

And, right, like, it was Like, trump’s always trump, but but his, you know, his radical waxes and wings. Yeah. You know, and so that was a period where his where his violent rhetoric was the most heated. And at that time, you had, you know, his opponents, Marco and Ted Cruz and other people within the Republican Party saying the uncalled for. You know, you shouldn’t we can’t have this kind of rhetoric.

Some events were canceled. You don’t see that at all. To your point now. There is nobody. So there’s been one example, show it.

I’d love to to give anybody credit, but I I don’t see any example anywhere in conservative media world. In in Republican world, you know, beyond the Chris Christie’s the myths. Yeah. People saying, we have to stop this. Like, like, this is gonna lead to something dangerous.

And, you know, they just want to pretend as if it doesn’t exist. And I go back to that Iowa, Barnow is in that cattle call, and it made me feel very uneasy. Because everybody that goes on stage, all of these Republican candidates, everybody that talked, they they just pretended like it all wasn’t happening. Like, they didn’t talk about the indictments, they didn’t talk about anything. And meanwhile, you had, you know, some people in the room like that.

And then you had these, like, kind of agitated trump fans that are like, why aren’t you fighting for my person? They’re at, you know, Like, those people need to be kind of cocked off the ledge, and nobody’s doing that. I, like, they’re either being stoked by Trump himself and by his most notches allies. Or, you know, that there there’s another class of people that are just putting their head in their sand, like, ostriches and hoping that this all gets better sometime with some convention floor fight in in Milwaukee. You know, this kind of fantasy topic.

And so that part to me, I think when you combine just the heightened intensity of the drama around actually convicting a former president and how that how people would respond that, and you saw the interview on Hillier did on NBC. It was somebody who was like civil war calling for civil war.

So so people’s emotions. Because obviously, we can’t live together if we do this.

Yeah. Right. So the news will be heightened. The emotions will be heightened. Donald Trump’s rhetoric is heightened.

The pushback is non existent. And, you know, I think a lot of national security experts in our terrorism experts said the thing about January six was that that it culminated in a moment. Right? Like, to have real violence, you know, you have your one off people, something to be scared of. But then you have your real violence is when it culminates in a moment.

We’re gonna have a lot of those potential moments coming up next year.

I think it’s

set up. All of that is very unbelievably concerning. The only one last thing, one the only good positive thing that I think we do have going for him is the the way the DOJ has been so tough on the January sixth, the people organizing the violence, the oath keepers, all that. I think that has taken some people, some of the people to troublemakers off the field in a way that is making real, real tangible difference. I think that’s the only green shoot here in a situation that as you bring up is deeply scary and and very alarming.

Well, I agree with you, but the danger does not come from just organized groups. It can come from these loan actors as as well. Sure. You know, and I was thinking back to that period before January sixth. And even some of the stuff that you wrote that I wrote that we were saying this is really dangerous.

This is really dangerous. Well, Bill kept saying I am alarmed, I am alarmed, and yet in retrospect, we were not alarmed enough.

Bill was really out there on

And I remember having a conversation with Denver Riegelman right before January sixth, you know, and he had done some of this Bulwark. And he was saying, look, all the signals are, this is gonna be really bad. This is going bed. And and he laid out the kinds of things that were happening that would lead to violence. I mean, he called the shot, and then it happens And people go, oh my god.

This we are now in a volatile situation. Things are very, very fragile. But to repeat a theme from earlier in the podcast, we’ve learned absolutely nothing from that. Absolutely nothing. We’ve seen how people have retconned what happened on January six downplayed it, rationalized it, even now kind of supporting it.

I mean, there’s there’s a real strain of trumpian rhetoric. And by that, I mean, coming from him directly, that characterizes, you know, that seventeen seventy six, we’re going to take down the government as a as a virtue as a good thing. So what happened in Utah wanna be a reminder. I think people have already forgotten about it of how bad things can be. So what I’m specifically saying is that we’re gaming out twenty twenty four.

What we haven’t gained out is what happens if there are assassinations? What happens if you have witnesses who are killed. What happens if prosecutors are attacked? What happens if judges are attacked? What happens then?

Fair enough if you wanna accuse me of Trump derangement syndrome or of being alarmist, I am alarmed. And you go back again to that pre January sixth You know, where Bill, you know, kept saying I am alarmed, I am alone. And now when we know all the things that were going on, we realized that that alone was completely justifiable. I mean, it was way worse, much more serious, much more of a close run thing than I think we believed at the time. And we were pretty ginned up on it.

We were pretty jammed up and it ended up being worse than many of us thought. And, you know, you have the other camp, which is the, you know, twist to beat the dead horse on not learning from anything we have the what’s the downside for Humaring him crowd. And you remember that? The the worst background quote in history? What’s the downside for Humering him for a few months?

Here there, they’re still doing it. They’re still humoring him. You know, even the people that are running against him are still humoring him. And I I just it it’s pretty sick, I think, that you have, like, these people in roles of responsibility, you know, whether that be McCarthy or McConnell or whether that be the people at Fox who just, like, are making the same damn mistakes they made before January sixth. And I and I think that, you know, it’s like you can just see hopefully this doesn’t happen, but but, you know, you can just see into the future, which is, you know, one of these terrible events that you laid out occurs, you know, they express their concern and that and say the right thing for forty eight hours.

And then, you know, they go back into their bunker. As Donald Trump keeps winning primaries and caucuses. And, you know, there’s not much I think that we can do to kind of stop that inevitability, except for what’s happening to the justices them.

So we don’t have time to get into some of the other things I wanted to to talk about. So let just let’s make a note to talk about this in the over the next couple of weeks. Okay. Because I think that over the last the last month, I think there’s a growing recognition that that even though Republicans have been completely full of shit about, some of the allegations they’ve made about Hunter Biden. That in fact, the hundred Biden thing is a problem.

Oh, that’s a cliffhanger for next Friday.

I mean, this is this is where holding two thoughts in your head at the same time is is is one of those difficult things in this incurring environment that — Yes. —

you know,

there’s no evidence that ties Joe Biden to any any, you know, breaking of the law, any of that stuff. A lot of the allegations that we may have been completely baseless. And yet, there is a cloud of sleaze that I think is a mistake to ignore. Can we just, like, noodle this out?

I talked to, Ron Phillipskowski. Yeah. We can noodle on it. People can go listen to Ron. I don’t got to him a couple of sundays ago on this Sunday.

Next level interview, and he was good on this because he’s following all the stuff as closely as anybody. And all the accusations in Mega World. And, and his advice is is in short, basically, that the Democrats need to be better about distancing from hunter because, you know, because even if there’s no evidence of what happened with Joe of Joe doing anything, it is pretty gross and there’s some political advantage to distancing. So anyway, we can get into it deeper another time, but Ron had some good thoughts, thoughts of that. It sound pretty aligned with what you’re saying.

Well, I think in June Lawrence had a piece in the in the bulwark about all of this. And and I think, look, Are there any crimes? Is there anything impeachable? Absolutely not. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not gross.

I mean, that’s so and and I think that’s part of the political reality. And the the other reason is because Republicans have this deep, deep, deep psychological, cultural, political reason to talk about hunter, you know, as as all of the the criminality of Donald Trump, you know, becomes impossible to ignore. I mean, what do they wanna do? They wanna talk about the criminality of Donald Trump, or do they wanna engage in what bautism and the what aboutism of the moment. And for the next year, it’s going to be a hundred Biden.

So You seen a lot of Jared Kushner coverage from that? Don’t know. The saudis, somebody I bought this for cliffhanger. Somebody left me with a dark, prediction for next year, which was what if trump just flees to saudi? It’s like you’re worried about Hunter Biden shitty in his little small ball bullshit corruption deals.

And here we got, Jerry Kushner bringing in a half billy from the Saudi. So anyway,

Okay. So this is what I really like that Christie has done because Christy, without any varnish, you know, completely unvarnish, to say,

is good about it.

The reminding people about Jared Kushner working in the White House, then leaving the White House and doing a billion dollar deal with the people he had been working with. I mean, Come on people. You can’t show anything remotely like that with the bidens. But outside of Chris, Chris, nobody’s really played that Jared Kushner card, which is amazing. Tim Miller.

Great to have you back on. We will continue this conversation soon.

Sounds good, brother. Talk to you all soon.

Thank you all for listening to the weekend Bulwark podcast. I’m Charlie Sykes. We will be back next week, and we will do this. All over again. The Bullbrook podcast produced by Katie Cooper, and engineered and edited by Jason Brown.

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