Tim Miller: Why Lizzo Triggers Ben

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Hi,

Charlie Sykes here. There’s really never been a better time to help support the mission of the bulwark to bring sanity and a non tribal lens to our national politics. Now we’re not shy about defending democracy and calling out bad actors. And we’re building a community for people who value good faith debate and are not necessarily looking for a safe space. So for a short time, We have a special offer for you.

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Thanks. Welcome to the Bulwark podcast. It is Friday. I have to say that I am kind of appalled and amazed that we’ve come to the end of September already. So Tim Miller joined me on on the podcast to the weekend podcast.

I mean, it this is it. It’s September. And here in Wisconsin, it’s like, I left for a weekend

and I come back in its fall. And it’s so anyway. Happy happy October almost. I don’t miss Liven in places like that here in California. We’re we’re writing the prime of of our late summer.

You know, October is our warmest month here and — Mhmm. — and so to sit outside, I was getting a tan yesterday.

I sat

outside. Yeah. I was sitting outside on the deck. I was doing some reading. You’re doing a little prep.

You’re working on an article. And just right out there on my deck, he was nice as not fall, no sweaters. And and actually, it’s a it’s a nice feeling. I always had a fall depression that I think that was kind of a mentally, vestigial related to being in school. This this continued into my into my thirties, like, you know, around the time of going back to get depressed.

Some people love going back to school, not me. I love summer.

Yeah. And

so I I continue to have that. I don’t get it as bad now. I think because I don’t have to deal with this. So I’m very excited. But we also have one more.

Can I promote one thing, Joe? Sure. Sure. You know? Mhmm.

We we’ve brought if you need a double dose of Tim, I’m still gonna be here every Friday. We’re just gonna still be doing our kind of, you know, grumpy old man, grumpy young man, best routine every Friday, but we’ve brought the next level out from behind the paywall. And and so and that airs on Wednesdays. You know, people just need a little extra dose. They’re getting five days of Charlie already if they need two days of Tim.

Something that’s right. Go subscribe. Go scribe and click on little deal. It’s on YouTube and on Apple Podcasts.

This is what America needed. It needed another podcast with two million. It it really did So, okay, I wanna go back to the the the fall thing because I I always I’m I’m was not a fan of going back to school either, to be honest. But there’s some memory that I’m having here and I’m I was actually struggling with this morning, you know, on on a cool crisp fall day and it is actually kinda beautiful I mean, the leaves haven’t quite changed, but it’s it it is going to be quite lovely. And I had this moment of sort of trying to remember, you know, sort of a little bit of burst of happiness and optimism, which is very sort of untoward.

And I was saying, I think, what what was it that I was remembering? And I’m not sure, you know, maybe that that sort of sense, you know, that something new was starting, something cool was ahead, you know, I was indulging some sort of, you know, irrational expectation as a as a young person. And I, you know and and and even though all of them were doomed to disappointment. I I can still remember those little bursts of optimism, so I’m gonna kinda hold on to that so that that is possible. Well, anyway, you know, I’m I’m glad to hear the things are going well out there on the

left. That is that is nice. I’m glad that you have hopefulness, but I just I just have to say that a a memory a memory of memory of hopeful. That’s why I wanna just strip it away because one more thing. Because not only do I disagree with that, it’s like pumpkin spice, the the sweaters — Yeah.

— all of it. Dislike it all. It’s the least. The bottom of my season list.

Well, because, you know, you wanna

take the fall hate from people at this. I just I don’t wanna be wishy washy on this. It is. The worst for me. And living in California with no fall is is lovely.

I understand that you have chosen to have the front row see to American carnage in the decline fall of western civilization, you know, earthquakes, wildfires, homelessness, crime, needles dropping from this guy. By the way, speaking of speaking of the decline in fall of Western civilization, I just I just I just wanted to play this just to start off as as an indication of of the of the decadence of of the

West. Not beautiful. I’ve never heard of flute degraded like that.

No. Exactly. For for normal rational human beings, you’re wait. Wait. Wait.

That that’s beautiful. That that was absolutely lovely. And yet, I forgot to tell you that if if you hang on in the right wing media circles these days, this has become topic number one for the degradation of of American culture. And I I I just I keep hearing no shit

on the Mona Lisa. That little clip that you displayed. I hope you understand the difference.

We’re gonna come back to this. Okay? I I I I wanna come back because I do I completely agree with you that that we need to we need to expose our audience to the deep thoughts of the of the of the deeply thoughtful Ben Shapiro who devotes a truly extraordinary monologue to how awful it was

We play the But which

whiskey district. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.

Wait.

Wait. Thanks to wrap.

I’m outraged. I I am appalled. I I must say it. I mean, it must be, you know, we have our down moments and everything, but it must be exhausting. To be a right wing troll these days, figuring, okay, what what are you gonna do today?

I mean, well, I’m going to spend my entire monologue talking about Lizzo playing James Madison’s flute is really emblematic of everything that’s wrong. No. Emblematic of everything that’s wrong with with American culture. Okay. I’ve already gotten to the point where I’m I’m making fun.

Can

we

just let’s I’m gonna set this aside. Let’s work up to this. Okay? Because we need some caffeine between ourselves and in in this discussion. So it’s Friday morning.

Hurricane Ian has just devastated Florida. These pictures are just absolutely stunning. The the damage is just horrific. The human suffering almost beyond imagination. And I have to say, and I’m This is something I’m I’m sort of withholding and put an asterisk behind.

I’m struck by a couple of things that we ought to at least acknowledge. Number one, you’ll notice that nobody in the White House is talking about punishing Florida because of its politics. There’s no movement. There doesn’t seem to be any, you know, residual positioned to providing federal aid to Florida. And there seems to be a minimal amount of assholery going on between the Democratic president of the United States and the Republican governor of Florida at least so far.

And I think, you know, that that’s the way it should be. But in twenty twenty two, because the bar is so low, we had to at least acknowledge that. Yeah. It’s it’s I mean, I I think you can regret doing this. Know, I

don’t think so. I think it’s gonna be a long recovery. And I I think that this is when people are always like, well, you know, what about this? Is what’s coming behind Trump worse than Trump? And is it different?

And you can analyze all this. There are, like, certain elements of this that are unique to his psychopathy and and, like, this need to be loved this desire that I was only gonna help people who are going through a national disaster if the governor of that state rubbed my belly like, that is pretty unique to him. I’m sure there’ll be other grandchildren that will come behind, but it will be hard for them to match the extent of his derangement on this particular score. But, yeah, you could tell from some of the the conservative media, the anti anti crowd. You know, there was, like, two hours two days ago or whenever this was bearing down where where Biden hadn’t yet talked to to Santos.

He talked to, like, some of the mayors. And they’re like, oh, you could see how much they were hoping for to buy have the same level of pettiness. Right? You know, there was a Biden hasn’t talked to him yet. Uh-oh, what?

I thought he was gonna be mister. And and, I guess, I saw a report this morning. They’ve already talked four or five times and and he’s, you know, acting like a normal president as he has continued to do, which is exactly right. And I think this is obvious. We shouldn’t have say this like the downside of the performative trolori politics, which is that when you’re in charge of a state like Rhonda Santos’s, You don’t know what crisis is gonna hit tomorrow.

You don’t know who you’re gonna need help from. You don’t know your net responsibility over people that didn’t vote for you. I know. This was like the baseline of our politics for, you know, my entire childhood and yours, right, that that you’re governing for everybody even if campaigning against people and you need to keep that in mind throughout the process. So this is on you know, you don’t want something like this to be a reminder because because the it seems really horrible.

And and, obviously, we’re sending our thoughts out to the folks in Florida and JBL put put some links up in the triad as well for how we how, you know, our community can support that. But it it is just this kind of stark reminder. Right? Like, there’s there is a reason not just being self righteous getting on your high horse that politicians aren’t supposed to do performative assholery you know, for trolling purposes. Right?

Like the which is that they have responsibilities over people that might may or may not have have ended up voting. For

them. Yeah. There are real people and you have a real job. Alright. The other big story of the morning is that Doug Latimore Putin held a a big media event, a big ceremony in which to formally unnext Ukrainian territories to Russia after these completely bogus sham elections.

You’re not my party is devoted to Vladimir Putin and, you know, what what he’s gonna do next. And so just give me your your your thoughts on all of this? Because I mean universally, you know, I guess outside of the Tucker Carlson Green Room, everybody is regarding this is pretty much a joke. But perhaps ominous because it it might mark some kind of an escalation giving him a pretext to use nuclear weapons. What do you make of all

this? Yeah. You know, I’m not obviously a criminologist. We have Kathy Young, who’s been doing great work on this. I’ve been reading other other smart people listening to the shield of the Republic podcast, another good one to try to get smart.

And so, you know, who knows? For me to come over here and say, oh, this is what Putin will do next. I think what I tried to get at and not my party is the state of play with, you know, we we don’t need to start patting each other on the back are doing victory advances in the end zone right now, but the state of play is really very bleak for him. And and that’s legitimate. And and so I wanted to do this episode said some friends who were texting me, some less political friends who were like, you know, is this, like, Western media propaganda different?

You know, that’s happening? Or is this, like, really true? And it’s, like, this is true that he’s cornered. It’s not to say that he’s, you know, that a coup is coming in or democracy’s coming to rush anytime soon, but that they are in a really shockingly bad situation. What you would almost say is the worst case situation imaginable, like when they were marching the keys.

Right? If we went back and to the podcast that we were doing that week and said, okay, seven months, whatever it is, eight months, you know, from here, he’ll be doing conscriptions There’ll be protests. There’ll be violent outbursts between the military people that are going to bring people into the military. His private Canada networks. We’ll be starting to complain about them.

Big social media accounts, you know, because Russia does have the it’s not like China. Russia has tech talk and stuff that the most famous, like Russia’s social media accounts or or they’re starting to speak out and be like, I don’t wanna get I don’t wanna get brought into the military. Ukraine’s on offense or has been now for a few weeks in the Marquee region and others. So he’s in a rough spot. And and so I think that there’s some legitimate fears that that somebody that’s in a rough spot might start to get desperate and do insane things.

And so that’s something to be afraid of. But, you know, just from a straight kind of military state of play perspective, it’s hard to think about what Ukraine or and and us and their western allies could have done to get them in a better position than they are right now given the terrible hand that they were dealt by the invasion? Well,

and and and also Putin’s decisions are making things worse for him. There’s this call up of three hundred thousand reservists appear to has just been a LETE SHAMBALIC MASSA. I THINK I SAW I TWEET YESTERDAY FROM THE FORMER AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA MCCFALL. WHOSE WHO SAID THAT MORE RUSSIAN MEN HAVE NOW fled the country than have been actually conscripted. And these pictures of the thousands of of Russian men leaving the country which by the way, Russians are hearing about.

I mean, you know, to your to your point about the fact that they’re social media, you know, every city, every every workplace, you know, has a story now. And I was just watching one of these clips of one of the Russian television, you know, pro Putin propagandists who look like he was having and a moment of of of of real personal depression about what’s going on here. I mean, they’re they’re they’re talking about, hey, guys, maybe we should start winning, maybe we should start doing something. This is really bad that so many people are leaving you. People are gonna really regret this, and they played a clip of a priest, you know, saying, you know, What will you come back to?

How will you live with yourselves? So, again, the bottom line is that within Russia, there is this tremendous upheaval. It’s not just protests, It’s people who are leaving the country, families that are being ripped apart, and they’re talking about this. On state media, that this is taking place. So it’s it’s one thing when you can’t go get your happy meal at McDonald’s because McDonald’s is shut down.

It’s something else. When your son, your brother, your father, has basically just packed his bag and left the freaking country. Because they’re calling you up to be used as, you know, cannon fodder in this meat grinder to mix metaphors in in Southern Ukraine. So, yeah, this is this is not the shocking stat

that McFall stat. Right? Yeah. Again, it’s hard to get the hard numbers you may certain of. But even if that’s in the ballpark of write more flood, then a vendor can script it.

That just shows how how that’s being received. And I think you tie that to another step that just keeps sticking with me is the the deaths the Russian military deaths in in Ukraine exceed the American deaths for the entirety of Iraq and Afghanistan. Right? So again, to think about Yeah. Put together, and and that’s tied over a decade plus.

And all this has happened in Russia in less than a year. So, you know, not everybody’s gonna know somebody and they’re feeling we just everybody in America knows somebody that that was lost in those wars, but but still, you know, you start to. Right? It starts to become much closer. And obviously, that has an impact on people.

And that’s the and I think that their awareness of how dangerous and how deadly it’s been and how poorly it’s gone is what’s driving

a lot

of these folks to

flee. Okay. And I know the last thing on Earth that you need, Tim, is more praise for me. But but we do a lot of that. Okay.

We do one more Russia thing before you give me a tongue down. Okay. Play. Okay. Yeah.

We because you’re because I wanna praise you for a second. I was, like, somebody had to write this. I I was glad you did your newsletter because I was talking internally. The the Nord Stream to — Mhmm. — element of this.

Side of things. It’s just also worth talking about. It’s just also worth talking about really quick. Yeah. Because it’s crazy.

It’s crazy. And and it’s just, like, it’s the kind of thing that shows the imbalance about what’s happening, you know, and people do the both sides, media criticism, blah blah blah. That’s like, there is no lefty equivalent to Tucker Carlson. I mean, there’s a Twitter feed somewhere, but, like, the Tucker has the biggest platform in in America. On this, and and obviously the biggest on the on the right wing media site.

Charlie Kirk, we did last week on Journey Point USA. Charlie Kirk has extremely influential group, probably the most influential activist

group. Defacto, RNC now. Yeah.

Defacto, I it really is the party. And in some ways, he’s more the head of the party than Romney. McDaniel, Romney. And so you have Tucker and Kirk and others, but but these are two examples. My old friend Clay Travis, I saw I did this.

No. Just just spouting off Like, randomly, accusing the US, there’s a news item. I assume every seen it, but the where the look, there’s a leak or a which we think is a sabotage of the North stream two pipeline going from Denmark into Europe. And these conservative talking heads are out there saying, I think Biden did this. Like, the US is doing this because they wanna escalate because they’re such warmongers now and they want nuclear war with Russia.

And this is just like madness. This is like the moon landing is fake level accusations. It’s it’s everyone is now Alex Jones. Everybody

is now Alex Jones and it’s gone. It’s not just, you know, on some, you know, community access cable channel. It’s it’s now Fox News and it is Charlie Kirk, and they’re all like, well, US intelligence agencies have to be considered guilty until proven innocent. And my point was, okay, so this is this is a weird flex for the America first crowd, which has now become blame America first crowd. I mean, this is what conservatives used to routinely accuse the left of doing that you always blamed America.

But even this is like, this is fringe stuff because around the world, the assumption is if there was sabotage, it’s probably the Russians. There’s no evidence, no evidence whatsoever, that it is the United States. But, you know, so yes, you you have Tucker Cross in spreading this bullshit, you have Charlie Kirk. It does remind us though that once you decided you’re gonna accept one big lie I think your brain is then set up to accept any big lie. One once you have been deranged in some way, then you’re willing to to believe or be willing to say anything.

And I think we’re in that moment where Because this is so crazy. And so and the the sort of the hate America thing from American conservatives is like, well, this is kind of new. Right? Could we at least acknowledge this is new? Affirm

had a good tweet about how he saw that there was, like, a little bit of a a just an ember of this. In the early aunts from was going back and said an article. He’s like, I never would have thought that this would have reached this level. And and here’s another difference, you know, which is Sure. There are always conspiracy minded people.

There are always people out there. But it’s just it’s hard to imagine, you know, if if John McCain were alive or if we had, you know, the pre defense trade at Lindsey Graham that there would be people out there accusing the US of of sabotaging our European allies in order to agitate for nuclear war and there are prominent people on Fox. You there would be somebody out there that would be saying guys no. Right? Like, this is not right.

You know, this is not true. I mean, say what you want about going back to the birtherism stuff. There are always at least some people that were saying the handful that were like, no. This is not true. You’re know, we do know the McConnell story.

And that does matter. Right? Like like, it’s not to say that it’s good and that it was perfect back then and that there didn’t merit criticism, but It matters to have leaders that are that are correcting the record when there are this outrageous level of things being said. And I think in the post Trump era, they’ve just all been beaten down to such a degree that it’s like, what’s any point? Why why engage or Why bother.

Right? Because there’s nobody and it’s kind of crazy. There’s no weed, not a single Republican on the Intelligence Committee. Nobody is coming speaking out and defending the Biden administration on this. It’s like it’s a blame America first.

It’s also blame Biden for everything. Just just by making something up out of out of whole cloth. You know, there there there there’s no evidence where there’s no logic for, and and they’re they’re twisting this video, it shows our new social media world. It’s like Biden said some video in February. We’re in a press conference.

He’s like, if the Russians do this, we’ll shut down Nord Stream to you know, but it was more of a it’s a negotiation tactic. Right? Like, trying to convince them not to invade, you know, he was he was you know, it’s making that statement. And now they’re like, okay. Because I have this one little eight second piece of video, now I can pump it out there and and all the people who are Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, Brain, will look at that drug.

Oh, man. Good point. Must have been

by it. It’s not. Well, and it is not. But it’s right here. This hits the trifecta.

It’s anti American. It’s crazy. But it’s also profoundly stupid because the the notion that that that we would sabotage our allies at this point that we would create an energy crisis that would weaken European resolve and maybe drive up the price of gas in this country. It’s so stupid to think of that as a strategy. And there’s part of me in the back of my mind going, and I and I wonder if this sometimes with with Trump when you embrace this q one on, it’s whether there’s sort of this little troll thing going on and going, how far can I push it?

How much can I make people believe? Okay. So I’ve done this. Why if I told people this? Could I get people?

It’s sort of like, you know, how powerful am I? How stupid are they? What can I get away with? Because otherwise, why would Tucker Carlson, you know, push something that is so anti American crazy and really, really, really stupid? Help me with this.

Yeah. Partly maybe that,

but it’s partly that. Just this, we have to make Biden look as bad as possible. And and and and rip away, and this is where Carlson and and Ben get together, rip away the trust in all of these institutions. Right. Like, the only way to do that is to just tear away, you know, the idea that that that that the Republican base could believe that the FBI could act responsibly ever you know, that the national security agencies could, that the administration could, that there any that there is anybody that is out there that is acting responsibly, And so any opportunity you have to, like, advance something that might chip away at that one more time is an opportunity that they take.

So I I I think it’s as simple as that. And plus he’s kind of a Russian asset, so there’s that maybe too. Yeah.

Well, I’m not gonna argue with you about that. So in in in passing, you you invoked the name of John McCain, and that was in the news again this this week. It’s another one of those. It’s almost too exhausting to talk about. Do you remember that story that during the Trump presidency?

It it it’s almost too bizarre to even spend time with, but The Trump White House had wanted the USS John McCain to be out of sight during a photo op they had out in the Pacific. And and again, part of it is like, okay, that’s just too petty. It’s too stupid that because you hate John McCain, you don’t want this US naval ship and its crew to be visible. And of course, the Trump White House said this is ridiculous. It’s not true.

It’s, you know, completely fake news. And now we’re finding out because of freedom of information act, I request that it was absolutely true. It’s in black and white. They really, really did that. And this is one of those, you know, just shoot me now.

I mean, how much can we do? It didn’t He hated the level of He hates trying to the level of pettiness is just like, you can’t even get your head around. Off the charts. So

my one thought on this is just I just wanna like, as soon as you look at the story, like, this is so crazy, it’s so petty, such stupid Trump as such an asshole, and then it kinda move on. I’m

just like,

thank you in the context of my book and and, like, dealing with the mindset of these people. I just I I like to sometimes think, you are the military attache, you know, to the White House, and you just sit down at your government computer and send an email to somebody in Japan. It’s like, the commander in chief is requesting that we move the USS John McCain ship or at least turn it around So he doesn’t have to see his name. Like like how can you type that email and just maintain even a tread of dignity. You know, the one thing I definitely know is a direct quote from the email.

Obviously, with the one thing that is a direct quote from from these emails, that that really sort of got to me as one of the recipients in the navy or or in some chain discussing this for five, this is just sad. You know, and it is. It’s sad. It’s like that’s just to be demoralizing and sad.

Speaking of demoralizing Anne said, okay, can I get to the part where I give you what you don’t need, which is more praise.

I’m ready for

it. You’re you’re you’re

you’re Understood. Baby. Yeah. Well,

the the piece in the bulwark yesterday, which was a thorough deconstruction of a spin article in the Washington Post, and, you know, again, you know, send your DM’s to to Tim about this. But the Washington Post the other day did this amazingly creditless article about, you know, Kevin McIn Carthy, you know, real man of political genius. Behind the scenes, he has really been working to get rid of the crazies in the Republican Party and, of course, the the example was Madison Hawthorne. And and you you you wrote a takedown of this piece saying, okay, this whole thing about Kevin McCarthy being the champion for normalcy. Can I just read couple of paragraphs?

My my two favorite paragraphs? The post article quotes an unnamed WellWisher who calls McCarthy a political animal who is not to be trifled with, saying of him no better friend, no worse enemy. Not do right. I presume this person insisted on anonymity to avoid the public humiliation that would come with such a ludicrous tongue about. But the next paragraph is better.

Because that description doesn’t fit McCarthy at all you wrote, here it comes. I was actually when I called this up, I started laughing. Okay. The truth about Kevin McCarthy is that he’s a toting, spineless suckup. He’s a scar who thinks he’s a Simba, a Saul Goodman, who thinks he’s a Gusfring, a Gimp, who thinks he’s a

master. Yeah. Sure. Okay.

For those of you that are missing the popular culture references, I can’t help you. I mean, it’s just it’s it’s too I don’t wanna explain it. But so talk to me about this. I mean, obviously, you know, my read your read on this was this was Kevin McCarthy. Trying to figure out a way to reassure the donor class that, okay, just because I’m going to be in a caucus that has people like Matt Gates and Marjorie Kayla Green and Lauren Beaufort and Paul Gossar and Louis Commert and Let me know how should I go on.

It doesn’t mean that I have not really have been a champion for normal Republican and the Washington Post just swallowed it down.

Yeah. And here’s what really I I just so here’s really how do you step back because I’ve been in the pitch mode in these meetings. I have a pretty good sense for what happened. Like, a couple of these things are true. Right?

Like, you know, Kevin McCarthy is just sitting around doing nothing. You know, he’s got a super pack with millions, tens and tens of millions of dollars. And so, you know, they looked at some of these primaries, engaged in some of them. They got a couple of scalps, you know, they got Madison Hawthorne. They did a little bit of gay dating to do that.

I felt like I needed to mention that in the bolder articles since the Washington Post didn’t. Like, the wink wink Madison’s a FAG campaign that they were running with, like, pictures of him in a Lacey shirt and pictures in with a boy. His head on his chest, and that weird thing is probably

what did him in. Yeah. No. No. Seriously.

This is this is that is probably what because all the other stuff obviously doesn’t move Republican primary voters. So they they went there. Okay. Go on.

Marjorie Taylor Green’s going just fine. Right? So it’s not like Madison’s crazy messaging was working. So I’m sure that there’s there were some other North Carolina people weren’t happy with them. There were some local elements, but it was it was not a small part of the campaign.

Let’s just be honest about that. So they so they got that one. And that was if you wanna compliment somebody for their Machiavellian effort and gay dating Madison Katherine to get a more normal Republican in there, like, okay, that’s one in the checkbox. Like, all the other examples, though, are just these well, they did these little small ball things to go after you know, Laura Lumer, who’s his racist nigga that was running in Florida and Carl Paladino. Who yeah.

Who says racist nigga that was running in New York? That it wasn’t, like, a fore foresight campaigning. It’s Karl Paladino. I mean, Elyse DeFonik, his hand picked Conference Share, endorsed to — Yeah. — publicly in the last week.

Right? So it’s not like he’s he’s he’s running controlling things with an iron fist here. But, you know, if you you can put together a pack You know, you put together a little memo or a PowerPoint deck with, like, here are four or five things we did to help a more more team normal person over a more crazy person in the primaries. And get that. Like, once you step back to thirty thousand feet, you realize this is ridiculous.

And, like, he’s doing this because he has a a really a tough job, but he’s not gonna be up for it, which is he’s gotta keep these donors, these New York financed donors, who don’t like Marjorie Taylor Green and Madison Hawthorne at all, happy by convincing them that he’s doing something. Right? That he’s trying to manage this. That he’s not doing, you know, that he’s not, you know, letting the Hershel Walkers and stuff through. And so he’s using a couple of these examples.

To rub these rich guys bellies and, like, make them feel like they, you know, can can can pump money into these house races and feel good about it. Feel good that it’s not going to be, you know, Nazis running the House caucus next year. But but the problem is that that how he just he doesn’t have any control over the part. This is a bottom up problem. Right?

He can make a couple of things on the edges, but but he’s not willing to actually take on the fight Right? You know, this is the Madison example. Like Madison is the only person that he actually did a full frontal fight on. All the other examples in this post article are the secret affirmative ads that they did behind the scenes. Madison is the only person he took on.

Actually, you know, took on had the courage to stand up to it. And that’s because Madison like a twenty seven year old joke who accused of going to cocaine or cheese. Right? I got Madison gave him no no option but to stand up to that was it. It’s he isn’t saying up to Beauforty.

He’s not saying up to Paul Gossar, to MTG, to Moe Brooks, to the other insurrectionist that were planning the January sixth thing. There are three people that were at the January sixth at and around the capital, not just at the rally that went to the capital three house nominees. In in this caucus, he’s not he support they they he’s endorsed all of them. One of the three, they did try to do primary campaigns against that failed. Obviously, we’ve discussed the people that voted to impeach.

Kevin didn’t defend any of them. Really? Yeah. I mean, Yeah. Yeah.

He didn’t he did nothing for Peter Meyer. All he did was whine about the mean Democrats running ads that that talked about how John Gibbs was an interactionist and then voters voted for him. Like, they didn’t tried a campaign for Peter Meyer. Peter Meyer’s name as I mentioned in this watched the best article. They did try a campaign for Jamie Herr, butler who’s running against, like, a literal like dude who plays more than Footsie with white nationalists and and and that failed.

Right? So just and then and then across the board, they’re insane people. You know, you can just read article, but my favorite one was in Colorado, you know, my home state, a woman who was the leader of the effort to secede eleven counties is is the nominee for the new swing districts that they just created because of redis Wings car on this growing normal. Yeah. Super normal.

And so So, you know, this the reality of Kevin McCarthy just just just to, you know, bring this to the, you know, most discreet point is that he saw the failure of Baylor and Ryan of being able to control the crazies. Right? Baylor and Ryan say what you want about them, at least tried to fight them on certain things. Right? Mhmm.

For Ryan, it was it was, you know, budget stuff, and it was immigration stuff, and they they both got overthrown, basically, because the the lunatics and their conference didn’t didn’t want what they were selling. And so McCarthy’s insight is, I’m gonna give the lunatics everything they watch. Right. Right. I’m gonna do a few things behind the scenes to to make the donors happy.

Right? Like, I’m gonna do a few things behind it. And that’s what this article is. This article is we’re not gonna have a a insurrection pun intended in my conference because I’m gonna give the lunatics whatever they want. And and, you know, once a quarter, maybe not.

Actually, you know, twice a year, I’m gonna do one thing it’s gonna make the people that, you know, live in New York, who don’t follow this as closely, who are pumping money into my packs, feel like you know, that they have got a responsible team normal hand at the teller. And and, like, that that that’s it. And that is why, like, you know, he’s the gimp, not the master because he’s not you’re only powerful if you it can actually use your power and influence to to do something. Right? And like that and Kevin’s proposition is not that.

He’s like, I wanna be in power, but let the mob control me. And that way and I will stay in power that way. And, you know, it’s not nothing. He’s gonna be the speaker of the house. He’s gonna get a little bus.

In the capital, but it’s not Machiavelli and hard hitting politics. So what

kind of a reaction did you get to this piece, because I I have to say that I was surprised reading it because usually the Washington Post political coverage is a little more savvy. A little more spin resistant. You get some blowback to this, Tim? Yeah.

I did. I well, I I had a very heavy amount of direct messages from political reporters. It’s Ida. Some of them listen to this

podcast. Some of them listen to this podcast.

I don’t I don’t wanna portray any private messages. Hello, Washington political reporters listening to the World podcast, but there were several who were giving me quiet applause because they were like, what the fuck was that hard at all? Okay. But, you know, I can’t do that because I’m writing for another outlet. There were others who were doing the whole, oh, you’re being too mean.

Like, you know, it’s not nothing that they beat Laura Lumer down in Florida. Like, doesn’t he like, you know, we have to give some credit we’re due, and I’m just like, no. I don’t I don’t I actually I don’t I don’t think so. I I think that once you’ve submitted to letting me conscious bully you into trying to end our democracy. I I think you gotta demonstrate, like, a little bit more public facing courage than just standing up to Madison Hawthorne if you want to get an Attleboy.

Right? I I just I I don’t think that the Attleboys are are called for here. I think you could write an article mentioning that they did secretly, you know, try to nudge a few of these primaries the right direction, and they had a deeply mixed record and and of success in doing that, but trying to turn him into a Sendgali, that’s a zero. So — Yeah. — yeah.

You know, a little a little buzz about about the about that in Washington, but this is this is what this is, like, the naval gacy, like, b s, to be honest.

Yeah. So at one related you kind of mentioned this, you you wrote in the article as somebody who’s made self aggrandizing pitches about my side’s political genius for political reporters. I know how to leverage shoot what flies, claim what falls ethos to make yourself look brilliant. What what is this? Shoot what flies claim what falls.

I love this. I love this. I what what is that? Explain that for me. This is my go to consultant move.

So if you’re out there and you’re a consultant, just put this one and you’re this is your new model, you know, put it in your hatch. Shoot what flies means, you know, you go out there, you put out press releases, you maybe it if it’s a positive thing, you know, you try to pitch reporters, you do what you can to draw attention to your to your client. And, you know, if the articles pop up, if people tweet about it, if something goes your way, you take credit. It’s a it’s a hunting thing. It’s like, you know, if there are a bunch of birds up in the air.

I

did that. There just that was me. Yeah. Everybody’s just shooting at the at the

gaggle of geese up in the air, and and and there’s five of you, and everybody’s shooting and one of the geese falls. You’re you you get to claim what fell. Alright? So I think that is what’s happening here. Right?

They did some ads in a couple dozen districts and, you know, five of them, the crazy person lost, out of four hundred thirty five. It’s a you put together a little package. You you claim what you claim what falls. Those were my five, you know. And I think that’s that’s what’s happening here.

Okay. I

I I do wanna get to the decline in fall of Western civilization. I’ll the bench appear in a moment. But but since we’re on this, this issue of spin as as a former recovering spin master communicator. I wanted to get your thoughts on the way the White House handled one of Joe Biden’s gaps this week, probably the leap bottom story of the week, but I I wanted to get your your thoughts on this. So so Biden is at this White House conference and, you know, he does his, you know, call out to elected officials and he and he does and he does a call out to, you know, congressman Jacky Wallorski saying, hey, Jacky.

Is Jacky in the house? And there’s no shit. You know, because Jackie Wielerski was killed in a car accident last month. So it’s a gal. Okay?

So it happens. He goes, you know, Jackie, where are you? Where’s Jackie in the audiences? Got it going off. K.

So this comes up at the White House briefing. So Corinne Jean Pierre, who’s, I think, a pretty pretty smart lady. Tries to spin it to say, well, she was top of the president’s mind, and there was no gap there. He was thinking about her, etcetera. What should she have said?

I’m happy. I don’t have her job. Yeah. And so I’ll start there. That’s that’s tough.

To be honest, I just I don’t understand in these situations. This has been a long time, like, little net of mind. I didn’t know you’re gonna bring this up, so I I felt this way going back to push era, and I’ve always like, I wonder if Jeb ever won if I could actually do this or if there’s just too much internal pressure in the White House to not do this little thing, which is just admit a minor mistake. Yeah.

Right. Obama’s few

strokes people were reluctant to do this. Obviously, Trump’s people, Denver, would I mean, I took to the most absurd ends would not admit anything. But I just I don’t know why it’s wrong. There are four hundred thirty five members of the House and and, you know, I I think that the right answer is just to say that, like, that that president Biden just, you know, was was, you know, had forgotten about the details of representative Olarsky. As soon as the event was over, he called her late husband or brother or whatever, issued to, you know, issue his condolences

the president

of the United States has to meet thousands of people. Right? Like, this becomes really sensitive here. Like, I think it’s one of those things where, like, would that be that hard to say if the president was Pete. Right?

You know, I mean, like, somebody who is obviously extremely sharp and and whatever. And it’s just like, you know, the president meets tens of thousands of people and sometimes shit happens. Right? You forget, like, the details around something. But but because the sensitivity around Biden’s age and and the fact that, you know, he’s obviously lost a step, I I think makes makes them reluctant drives the reluctance to, like, give the Republican media ecosystem, you know, a win on anything.

Like, give them a little opportunity to, like, play quote where, you know, she used They used the word forgot. Yeah. Yeah. But I I know I’m explaining their logic. Okay.

He made a mistake. He

regrets it, get a life. I mean, why why try to well, he was thinking about I mean, it would felt like it was almost like one step short of when he’s going, you know, Jackie, where, you know, are you here? Where’s Jackie? You know, they could have asked it, well, the president was praying. He’s captured.

And he believes that her mortal soul still lives. And so is this an is this an attack on Christianity? Are you attacking the president’s faith? Because I mean, you know, because it was just so bizarre. It’s just okay.

He fucked up. Just, like, get over it. We move on. I mean, there’s there’s a hurricane. There’s a war going on.

There’s an economy and you’re asking about you’re asking about a gap. It happened. It’s a mistake. And when he called the family and he and

again, and that’s another thing, which is like something Trump wouldn’t have done, another certain which is like, know, he gets a Republican, he called the family, you know, Western condolences, sent to sent his regards as it feels deeply sad, maybe even shout out that other people had died color, you know, he wanted he wanted me to mention you know, he asked me when I came out today to mention. Right? Yeah. And there are plenty of things you can do to, like, show that you care also just saying, like, I screwed

up. Yeah. Exactly. That’s not the worst thing in the world. Screwed up.

Yeah. I just

I I screwed up. It’d become refreshing in its own way. Okay. So deep breath, are we ready for this here? You tweeted out last night.

I

didn’t hear so. Are you gonna read the title? No.

No. This video is is an astonishing piece of art. That we should put in the library of congress and let our ancestors review centuries hence. That

was a time.

Percentage well, our descendants views, CenturySense. Okay. I I’m sorry. Yeah. I I see see.

I made a mistake get over it. I get

a mistake. Get over it. It’s

the sentence. I get it. Thank you, David Bowes. I didn’t even catch it. Okay.

So What you linked to is Ben Shapiro, who unfortunately I once told The New York Times, was a thinking man’s conservative, one of my worst takes ever. What did you

say about that? Alright. I

made a mistake. That was

you — Thank you. — me

get over it. I said something like that. How did

I not know those you all

the time. Years. No. No. No.

No. I was one of the PI. Somebody else said this. I I I got it. You’re They they quoted me as saying something like he reads books or something.

I mean, it it It came

off I’m finding a quote. I’m finding a quote. Okay. We’ll we’ll review the exact quote. It’s a dumb quote that sounds as dumb

as it was. I I have I have no complaints about it. I just just move on. So I’ve made a mistake. I made a mistake.

I let’s move forward. I I deeply regret it. And

on

my list of really bad takes, it’s on page six, which is single spaced, by the way. But you you link to this video of and so let’s let’s just play a little bit of this. This is all about Lizzo. No excited. Working with James Madison’s flute, the

vulgarization of American

history. So think about all the things that are going on in the world. And, you know, Ben Shapiro takes a break from, you know, worried about, you know, the demasculanization of the US military. And by the way, B. Knows he’s he’s wearing a beard now.

Very good. It’s a kind of a puby beard, if I can say that. So this is this is the

video, the astonishing piece of art that you people in the library of congress so that our descendants can review its centuries’ hands. I I need to note editorially though that this the sound bite is not enhanced. We did not speed it up. This is actually Ben Shapiro’s voice. This is the way he talks.

This is the actual thing, Ben Shapiro. The reason

the

clip is viral is the contrast between a person’s working and the idea of a of a. An extraordinarily classy instrument, a historic instrument that speaks to sort of the gen utility of America’s founders. Being brought into a context that is vulgar. It’s the vulgarization

of American history.

Again, Lizzo did both, and only one of those clips went viral. And so if you notice that, then you’re very, very bad. If you notice that, then this means that you’re some sort of race or it means that you don’t want black people playing the flute or something. No. I just don’t want people twerking with his torque instruments.

By the way, I’d be similarly offended as a violinist. If there was a strat of areas, come ahead of Strad. And that Strad was lent out to a position, we then proceeded to twirk on the Strad. I would also be insulted because it turns out that great art should not be degraded. Great art there.

That’s great to

know if you’re degraded by chance. Okay. I

I I would love yeah. I I would love to see that you pair for me, Strad. Hopefully, get somebody doing a twerking on a Strad video by next week. That is

a good

shit, Charlie. Okay. So some

of our core audience will who put in the comments section. Kim, could you please explain to us what twerking is? That that would be could you define workings so that we can understand the umptage taken by Ben Shapiro, champion of great art,

torking is like a gyrating butt dance, you know, kind of like if you’re just really it’s it’s just it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a dance that’s focused really on the gluteus. A lot of gyrating kind of in some some kind of drop and low. You can Google. I think it’s fair to say that James Madison never moved his

butt when he was playing the flute. Well,

a fun fact that I’ve learned subsequent to Ben Chabira’s video, which you only played a third of it. I watched the entire three minutes. I took any three times. I I watched it all three times. I I sat back.

I got a I got a glass of wine out before I listened to You wanted me to

play the full three minutes. I I can’t do

it. I was I’ve watched it now now, I guess, three and a half times. And, you know, the interesting fun fact, I did a little googling. Is a James Madison’s flute. Technically, I guess, it was technically James Madison’s flute, but then it was his son’s flute.

The son was an alcoholic and had debts and sold the flute to, like, I don’t they didn’t have pawn shops back then, but whatever. The guy at the local corner store or whatever to pay off his or the bar or to pay off his deaths. And so, you know, just as a matter of facts, like, let’s putting aside some of the other elements of this, I don’t know about the gentility with which the flute had been treated in its day in the back in the eighteenth century. But you know, that’s just a that’s just a point of point of interest. Hey, can you imagine?

What

was this all about? Oh, how how did Lizzo end up with James Madison’s Floot and Why Should We Care? Yeah. What

happened was the art times, I guess, tweeted out or posted in some funny picture of a crystal flute that they had that was James Madison’s crystal flute, Lizzo, who people don’t know, is a is a flautist and also a pop star. She’s

very, very talented floaters, which I did not know. Super talented. Yeah. No. I I that was,

I think, her first you know, what what she was trained in. I don’t think she was trained in in twerking. I think she was trained on the flute. And so And I think and it’s very accessible music. Every pop music.

If you don’t know, Lizzo, just go ahead and pull up Spotify, check yourself out about damn time or something. I think you’ll enjoy And and so she, I guess, I I don’t know which social media account, but on one of her social accounts said, I think maybe Twitter said, I really wanna play that. And said she is a concert coming up in DC. And so the was it the archives of library of congress? I said archives of It was library of congress.

So I meant I meant library of congress. Said, you know, why don’t you come by? And so the library of congress let her play it two times once it within the library of congress, and then she did they brought it out on stage at her concert in DC at which she played, I guess, two notes and then kinda talked about how bad ass it was that she got to play the flute and then, you know, did some torque and this was what this was what riled up a little bit. I don’t know if it got some, you know, feelings going down in his private area or what it was. Exactly that riled him up so much, but that was that part of the video that that is what he’s trying to distinguish.

You know, her treating it with respect in the library of congress. One thing playing two notes out on stage. They’re doing a twirk while dressed skinnerly clad. We didn’t make it the part of video where he complains about our dress. Too much skin for Ben.

I think he was hoping for the he’s job, I guess, on on Lizzo. I don’t know. But too much skin for him, not appropriate, degrading American history. And, you know, here here’s I think my most interesting take on this, Charlie, is that I think he really has convinced himself to these out. Really?

He really that’s real. I’ve spent a lot of time ruminating

on this. And I’m like, is this just one of those things where you need content today? And you gotta come up with something. Yeah. And

you see

a black lady with a historic flute and you’re like, I’m gonna be mad about this. I’m gonna get riled up. No. What I think is letting

black women now play James Madison’s loop. This loop where the country has come. Yeah. Exactly.

I mean, we’re not allowed to

touch that flute back then. Back

then. Yeah. We should have respect for the historic context. Which the flute was in or the black lady would have been a slave. Now, I think that what has happened is that your brain gets broken.

By being on the Internet constantly every day being having to be fake mad about things, and eventually the our brains are are powerful and we can mold them. And and I think that his brain, he’s molded it to such a degree, that that he creates a a a facsimile of of genuine anger, that his brain’s stem feeds down to him. When he sees something like this because he knows he has to do this. And so he’s now convinced himself of these things that this because we watch me, it goes on and on. It’s just about, like, the people that about how people who now get mad at me and say, Marissa’s for being mad at this.

I’m, like, they don’t how how can they not understand, how we might not be outraged by the degradation of this historic flute that I just learned about two minutes ago that I didn’t know existed before. And I truly believe that they convinced himself of that. Yeah. Yeah. So the payoff is that somebody

will call him racist, which then becomes, see, I must be doing something well. You know? Right? Because as Carrie Lake pointed out, you know, that, you know, if you’re not being called a racist or a fascist, you’re not doing it. Right?

So, I mean, here’s the thing about about daily commentary. And you and I both know this. In in this environment, choosing what to comment on and what not to comment on. This gives triage. Right?

Because there’s just so much. You have to pick just the biggest things. I mean, we’ve, you know, we talked about the hurricane. We’ve talked about Russia. We’ve talked about the elections.

There’s just so much. And so this is why just Take a moment, close your eyes and thank your Ben Shapiro. There is this entire universe out there. You think that the world is really falling apart. There is churnage, people are dying, and you devote the entire segment to Lizzo playing James Madison’s fluid and you’re really upset about it.

If I got upset over every little thing, I don’t think that I would be able to move. You know what I’m saying? It’s like it would be busy. But they’ve

convinced themselves that this is the the problem. Right? Is that the culture that has been taken over? By black people and women in minorities in the old traditional Is that what music

is that? Yeah. That’s classical music and

there’s a race element too, but there’s also cultural, conservative. Right? Like, we’ve lost the culture. And, like, there are these few things left that we’re holding on to, like classical music and flutes. Right?

Like, the the the woke lips have taken over, you know, popular music and Disney and all these things and this and we have these one thing that we’re just hold on to so tight. You know, our love of of traditional, you know, the fact that our American fights that were played at the revolution, and now they’re trying to take that from us too. I do I think that they’ve convinced I I I do I don’t I don’t know. Convinced something that that is something to be upset, but it’s it’s it’s insane. It’s one of the top podcasts in America.

People are listening to that and nodding along. Like, that’s deeply concerned about the state of affairs, but I I think that that’s what’s happened. So we run through all

the Disney movies to be outraged about. I mean, whatever happened with that. I mean, I I I I thought they were sort of

settling in real girl. Was white gear kiss? The big girl girl was white gear kiss. That had Or the outrage about

what the little mermaid, you know, might be black? Because, of course, as we all know, the little mermaid is white. How do you

get pigmentation under the sea, Charlie? How do you get pigmentation under the sea? It doesn’t even make sense It doesn’t even make sense. Okay? It’s just wilkes nonsense.

I’m I’m going to wait. In the song. Under the sea under the sea. When you’re way down there, how do you get how would you get a pigment? Okay?

Like, come on. Let’s just be let’s just be honest here. I I I don’t understand why it’s why that view isn’t just accepted. K? It’s the lids that have gone through.

It is interesting mentality.

Going out there,

going

what will upset me today? What can I be outraged about? And what can I get my audience to be outraged about? Oh, wait. The little mermaid, the James Madison flute.

Okay. Speaking You just play the strat. I

just have one piece of advice to everybody, and this is I think maybe there are some people listening to this, which is, like, if you find yourself getting mad about something like this, genuinely upset and stupid. And Ben, I think needs to go out to the field, find some grass, sit in it, take the little strata areas to the place. I guess he likes the viola or whatever. And just, you know, play some songs. Play some songs.

Put the phone down. Just play some songs. Find find some song. Find some better piece of yoga. You know, whatever it is for you.

Go to the beach. Everyone can just take a listen from Ben this weekend. Don’t be Ben. Go out there this weekend. Don’t put

the phone down. Touching grass. So speaking speaking of American carnage — Yeah. — I understand you have some thoughts about Jeffrey Dahma? I do.

As I mentioned to you, I actually lived being here and they’re walking. I was always on the I mean, I I lived through that on a daily basis. It was all consuming here in Milwaukee, and I just I I can’t bring myself to even comment on it because I I still I guess to suffer from a little bit of PTSD because I spent so much time on it at the time, got to know one of the cops involved. I can remember almost pre single detail of it. So but now there’s a movie because we just need to revisit Jeffrey Dahmer.

I’m not quite sure why. But your thoughts. Yeah. I

think the point of why, I guess I don’t and I don’t know if I agree with this, but the the justification, the rationalization from the from the artist of this. It’s a series. It’s a limited series on Netflix. I wish it was a movie because I wish I could be done with it. I’m only through two episodes, and I’m so upset and so enraged, and I have it cost me sleep last night, which is why I have to to bring it up before we leave the podcast today.

But it was that, like, they were kind of centering the stories of the victims, which is there there’s not nothing to that. Like, I I really didn’t know who the victims were, and and so it’s kind of, like, we’re gonna retell this guy’s story, but also, like, really focus on the people that he ate, which, okay, I guess, maybe as their families want that, I really don’t know. It’s hard for me to put myself in the mindset of somebody whose family member was eaten by Jeffrey Dahmer. But I I I I just so I was a child. Right?

So I have a totally different experience with this than you. Like, you lived every minute of it, you’re on the radio. I was a child when this happened. And so for some reason, like, in my mind’s eye, I I I never gone back and read the Jeffrey Dollar stories. I knew the basics.

But I thought he was like a guy I thought it was one of these, like, three per one percenter guys who was, like, living out in rural Wisconsin, like, you know, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, in a in a, you know, some sort of vlog cabin far away from people and then he kidnapped people and bring I I don’t know why I thought that, but that’s what I, you know, it was again, I I just was a kid when this was on the news. I don’t think my parents were, like, making me follow the details of this moment by a moment probably for, you know, mental health purposes. And so when I’m watching this last night, I got through two episodes, and I’m so angry.

Like, it’s it was it is just it’s reminiscent of all these other things that that you I feel like every time I watch one of these limited series or go back and watch a documentary, I’m like, this could have been stopped so much earlier. Yeah. It should have been stopped so much earlier. Yep. Is just unbelievably he’s in this tenement.

You know, there there’s a woman that is his neighbor that they played the audio of the actual audio in the second episode of believe it’s a second victim. So it’s very early in the process of the of the woman next to her calling the police and and and just being like, I do what’s happening? The kid that is next door as a child, like something very weird is happening with this child, and they’re like, no, they’re just gay, and they’re just lovers. Or whatever. It’s like, no.

I don’t think so. Yeah. And and so I I just I I’m watching it and it just fills me with with just absolute rage. And and and so I I don’t know. I had this one I wanted to bring it up for you because you, you know, knew the cops and all this, and and I, you know, you don’t know how much I haven’t come back and read all the Wikipedia’s, but it just seems like an utterly unbelievable ball drop.

You know, I don’t know, maybe like Yuval de level, but, like, by his dad who should have known by the cop, you know, by the people that was reported, like, the smell is in this building that’s in a crack house so people don’t go in there, you know, Anyway, I don’t know. It it just fills me with rage. And then I was of the gay angle, maybe makes me feel a little more personal like these poor, like, closeted boys that are getting pulled back anyway. It it just I I don’t if you’re if you haven’t watched yet, I just don’t know if I can recommend it because my blood pressure was skyrocketing last year. I can assure that I

will not watch it. But I would strongly recommend that I devoted my newsletter to it today to the the the Ken Burns series on the US and the whole of cost. But I will say, without any embarrassment whatsoever, that I find it very, very difficult to watch, and I have turned it off and walked away. When you see what we did as a country, the brutal indifference to the refugees. And I have to say that it it becomes much, much more powerful than it would have been, say, ten years ago, to feel all of the echoes and to hear the rhetoric with which American politicians and and and, you know, talk radio host use to justify not allowing you know, Jewish asylum seekers into the country to to hear the echoes of what’s going on right now.

And Ken Burns, by the way, is, you know, it was very, very clear that understood what he was doing to you know, it doesn’t have to be explicit about it because we all recognize all the things that are going on But the story of and and again, you know, this is one thing that that I knew about in in in the past. I’m guessing it’s new to a lot of people, the story of the St. Louis, the ship, more than nine hundred Jews who left the Hamburg Gus seeking, you know, to get away from the Holocaust. And they show up in Cuba. They show up in the United States, and they were turned away.

And they were sent back. They pleaded. We knew. I mean, you know, we knew. The New York Times, you know, called it the status ship afloat.

And yet, we we sent them back and hundreds of them were killed by by the not seize. And and this was something that it wasn’t that we were ignorant of it. It’s that that America decided that we were not going to take refugees. We were not going treat asylum seekers with humanity. And it just feels so relevant at the moment.

Oh my god. I

know I was reading your thing, and I was I was so painful when I was reading yesterday, I know we’re we’re going long long show here. But in the triad yesterday, which is after the newsletter for Bullar Fazio. Jacob, linked to this story, listen, I think New York Magazine — Mhmm. — and the story of an anonymous one of the FedNat’s that came. And he just read the story in this person, walked from Venezuela, essentially.

Right? And her thumb did, you know, got in some cars, but, like, at a big portion of the trip from Venezuela is on foot, gets to the border, come you know, is fleeing communism, comes across is is is, like, being fed meals to to survive for a few days while your weights, you know, obviously, this backlog of of a court date. He gets the court date in Philadelphia. How’s he supposed to get there? He’s across the border.

And then and then he gets tricked by, you know, Ron DeSantis’ goons. And sent to on the Martha’s Vineyard thing. But you’re I’m just I was just watching this and just thinking of just how horrible this of the echoes of the St. Louis incident you’re talking about. Then also just how intractable this problem is.

Right? Which is just like, how could we even if we wanted to lessen this, like, desire of people to come here if someone is gonna walk from Venezuela, you know, because fear death, couldn’t feed family, living in communism. You know, obviously, there are things that we have to do to to manage what’s happening on the border, but But do you just read that story and think, like, we don’t have any choice, but to try to figure out at least I feel like we don’t have any choice, but to try to figure out how to how to manage this in a way that, like, gives some of these people a chance. But, anyway You you know, I didn’t include

it in in my article, which can read again reliving a sorted chapter in American history. If you’re if you’re a subscriber, you’ve got it in your mailbox. If you’re a reader of the Bulwark, it’s still below the fold here. But, you know, talking about the how we had closed the doors to all of the asylum seekers and turned away, you know, the hundreds of of refugees on the St. Louis, as horrible as that was.

What I didn’t include in well, at least we didn’t have isolationists politicians turning those asylum seekers into a joke. They didn’t use them. They didn’t lie to them. They didn’t use them for, you know, what would have been a nineteen thirty nine photo op. They didn’t treat them as some sort of a pawn in a political game.

As bad as and as sordid and appalling as what happened in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties was, compare it to what we’re doing right now. And the fact that, you know, that, you know, there’s there’s so there’s so much glee at look, we’ve taken these asylum seekers and we’ve, you know, lied to them about, you know, where they’re gonna go, and we put them on a plane, and we drop them off in Martha’s Vineyard. It, you know, imagine in nineteen thirty nine, you know, taking Jewish refugees from Hitler’s Germany and treating them that way. So, I mean, it was awful. It is one of the worst stains on American history back then.

And yet, compare it to where we’re at right now and we’re not in a position. To say, boy, what was wrong with those people? We are not, Charlie. We are

not. Tim Miller, thank you for going

along. I have appreciate it very very much. You have a great weekend. Hey, everybody. You all have

a great weekend too. See you next week, Charlie. The Bulwark

Podcasts produced by Katie Cooper with audio production by Jonathan Seres. I’m Charlie Sykes. Thank you for listening to today’s Bulwark podcast. We’ll be back tomorrow. Do this all over again.

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