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Transcript
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SPEAKER 1
Hi, it's Bill Kristol. Welcome to Bulwark on Sunday. I'm very glad to be joined today, this Sunday Memorial Day weekend by my friend Michael Wood, a Marine Corps veteran and served at least two tours in Afghanistan. We'll talk about that a bit. And as a friend of the Bulwark, a contributor, I think, occasionally to the Bulwark.
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Isn't that right? Yeah, very important pieces, pieces in the Bulwark and businessman in Dallas, Texas. And so, Michael, thank you for taking an hour, half an hour out of Memorial Day weekend.
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SPEAKER 2
No, thanks. Thanks for asking me. This is going to be fun. Thank you.

Bulwark on Sunday: A Marine's Case Against MAGA

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This week on Bulwark on Sunday, Bill Kristol talks with Michael Wood about his military service and the meaning of Memorial day, Texas politics, his 2021 run as a Never-Trump Republican, and whether he’ll switch parties and challenge Ken Paxton as a Democrat in the next Senate race.

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Discussion about this video

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Bruce Whitney's avatar

Simply one of the best Bulwark pods I've listened to. Many thanks to Bill for having Michael Wood on. I was so impressed with Michael and so grateful that in these horrible times, there is someone like him out there who exemplifies what a decent, intelligent and brave person looks/sounds like. If he decides to take the stomach-turning plunge and run as a Dem against that corrupt POS Paxton in the 26 Texas Senate race...as pathetic as it might sound, I will have my checkbook out.

Just rare to see someone like Michael who you immediately recognize as a noticeable force for good in our country.

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Darlene Reeves's avatar

Mr. Wood, please run for office against Paxton. I do believe that there are reasonable, middle-of-the-road people who could serve our country well in political office. Michael Wood seems like a good example. I don't live in Texas, but I'd contribute to his campaign and spread the word.

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Percy's avatar

I like that young man. And if he could stop Paxton, I'd call him a hero.

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Marshall's avatar

Banger videos over the past three days. Y'all are what I remember Americans being, sigh.

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rlritt's avatar

It isn't even Birchers, Trump is a criminal dictator in it for the money. How do upright, intelligent conservatives support that?

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Robert J Danolfo's avatar

That was a fascinating show. Bill & Michael I thank you for your insights and commentary. I have to tell you that when Mr Wood was telling his story at the beginning I was weeping. Here I am a grown man twice his age and was so happy to see an authentic, good human being . On Jan. 6th, you are correct. We had a chance for a great cleansing that would have shown the world what a truly great nation we were. We could have shown the world that we correct our mistakes. The failure of our elected officials will be a stain that may never be erased. What can we do about it? Keep fighting. Keep telling the truth. And maybe more people will take off the goggles.

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Scott Smith's avatar

Would Michael Wood be interested in lobbying for a voting system that would 1) enable Democrats who appeal to voters who dislike generic Democrats to be viable in the general election even if they do not excite the party base and 2) counts Democratic voters' preferences among the Republicans so that if the Republican Party wins the election, it would not mean that the craziest Republican will get elected?

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Susan Archie's avatar

That was the best Sunday show I’ve heard in years.

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Susan Johnson's avatar

If Michael Wood runs, I'll donate to him! I'd vote for him, too, but I'd have to move to Texas from Oregon.

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Nancy1953's avatar

That was very interesting! I did not know of Michael Wood, and was very impressed by his history and demeanor. I will be watching, hopefully to see him take on Paxton. If the Democrats are to have any hope in TX, it is with candidates like him.

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Karen Smith's avatar

I agree! He's well spoken and seems to have a solid understanding of what the Dems need to do to win in Texas. I think he'd make an awesome Senator.

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Carrie's avatar

Michael Wood is a clear-eyed, intelligent truth-teller. More power to him!

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Maribeth's avatar

Listening to this conversation gave me great hope on this gloomy day in North Carolina.

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Jane's avatar

Thank you to Michael Wood for fighting for us, and for sharing his very moving story.

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SDWade's avatar

Thank you for this interview. As someone who was raised in south Texas and whose brother and sister along with their spouses and adult children still live there, I can tell you they have certainly been infected by the notion that Trump is a great businessman, a great negotiator, and is finally doing something about illegal immigration.

We can no longer talk to each other about politics so I'm not sure how they feel about the current economic and foreign policy situations but I can confidently say that they are more likely to blame Biden than Trump for the economy, that ICE is acting legally, and isolationism is the only course that makes sense for America.

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Ann P's avatar

My Navy Vet cousin says the same stuff. It’s like a brain disease. Maybe it’s a brain worm, and they’ve all got it. What amazes me is that, unlike Michael Wood, my cousin never saw combat, and was never deployed anywhere more dangerous than Hawaii. Wood, otoh, served two tours in Afghanistan and has two Purple Hearts to show for it. Yet Wood sees the truth more clearly than my cousin does. I just can’t comprehend the disconnect.

Come to think of it, JD Vance never saw combat either, although he did go to Iraq, but he just wrote press releases in an office building. Yet he comes back all bitter and hateful, while Wood wants to make the world a better place. Strange times indeed.

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Bruce Whitney's avatar

"...JD Vance never saw combat either, although he did go to Iraq, but he just wrote press releases in an office building. Yet he comes back all bitter and hateful, while Wood wants to make the world a better place"*

I cannot say anything to make the distinction clearer about the types of people that might face off against each other in the upcoming four years than what you said here Ann.

*Michal tried to downplay the severity of the wounds he received but you could see the emotions coursing through him as he talked about that and the wounds/deaths his Marines endured.

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Carrie's avatar

Infected is the right word.

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Sally D.'s avatar

I am ashamed to admit that I had never heard of Michael Wood. I am a Texan and before this, considered myself politically aware and savvy. This man is what we need in Texas and in this country. I hope he decides to run, but wouldn't be surprised if he didn't as politics in Texas is formidable. The Democratic party needs lift up people like Michael Wood. This is who the party needs. Thanks to The Bulwark and Bill Kristol for showcasing Michael Wood.

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Gianni Coastal's avatar

Paxton is a nasty crook. Trump gave the guy oxygen and brought forth the role model of starting grievance fires to distract from his corruption. It’s a lot to ask of Mr. Wood to run against the MAGA hate machine, on the other hand he embodies the America I strive for and our best bet to win!

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Carl Spagnoli's avatar

Michael Wood is enormously appealing.

All of us should be telling the Democrats that any automatic donations now going out from our bank accounts will be stopped overnight if the national & state Democratic organizations do not support Michael Wood beginning now! Putting up Beto or anyone else waiting and hoping in the wings would just be wasting milliions - again! - and delivering yet another religious MAGA extremist, hypocrite, sycophant, and crook to the Senate.

In the meantime, MW may want to begin hosting his own truck repair podcast! We need his oh-so-sensible voice of decency, reason, imagination, & empathy out there in the Zeitgeist as the kind American that Democrats embody.

BTW. Some of the Q&A's from this interview would make fabulous campaign material. I especially loved his comments and observations about the extreme crazies who have taken over the GOP party beginning at the primary run-for-office stage of politics; I think a good number of old-school Republicans and centrist Democrats would relate very well to his statements about actually being on the ground in small venues and party meetups and subsequently realizing in a visceral way that MAGA extremism completely precludes the possibility of going back to Bob Dole GOP; his simple and genuinely heartfelt language and metaphors really resonate. And BK's own responses during that part of the interview only add to helping explain that the GOP is truly a hijacked cult rather than a political party anymore.

Who really knows? After all, I am just an almost septuagenarian dyed-in-the-wool traditional empty-headed liberal of many decades who can count on no more than my two hands Republican candidates that would ever have gotten my vote even in a no-contest election. I have been pretty cynical about the latent threads of racism, misogyny, and xenophobia - as well as the GOP's continuously craven predilection for power surpassing any moral or ethical concerns - that seemed perfectly obvious and well in play to my

emerging political consciousness during the late 60's before i could even cast a vote.

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Mill128's avatar

Bill, I'm really liking this Sunday pod you have going and Michael was a great guest to have on.

However, you absolutely need to invest in a high-quality microphone.

If you're going to do it, do it right.

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Jan's avatar

We need viable third parties, probably via ranked choice voting. As a democratic would Michael Wood vote to protect women's autonomy over their own bodies? For social safety nets that try to make sure health care isn't just for the wealthy or those with stable employment in large (not-walmart) corporations?

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Julie's avatar

Michael Wood is someone I could vote for. Not only can he speak well, he's down to earth. Listening to Bill and Michael talk about January 6th and what could have been done differently to bring to justice those who attacked the Capitol and injured the police brought on the "if onlys". I still believe, however, that things being different would have only postponed the inevitable decay we're experiencing. I know I'm more awake now, for sure. Great discussion as always.

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Kristin Krathwohl's avatar

I'm enjoying this regular Sunday morning livestream and appreciated hearing Michael Wood talk about the challenges in Texas.

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Alison Stendahl's avatar

I wish Bill’s sound quality was better. Michael Wood was clear and I appreciate hearing his story.

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Tai's avatar

Michael Wood will be the exact person I want to lead this country. I hope the Democratic Party in Texas pulls all stops to bring him in and be part of their agenda.

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Judy B's avatar

Michael Wood would be a total asset in the Senate!!!

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Fran Laurie's avatar

Thank you for introducing Michael Wood. For those of u not familiasr with him, it was a great introduction and a perfect Memorial Day Weekend guest. He is very impressive and has a lot to offer. I hope we continue to hear more from him ahead.

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Marcella Walter's avatar

I'm remembering Ann Richards and Molly!

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Karen Gammon's avatar

So impressive and sensible, grounded and humble. I hope Mr. Wood does decide to run if it is best for him and your family. Think he would whip the britches off of Ken Paxton. Be well, thank you for loving our country and serving twice.

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Lalla Ward's avatar

So illuminating, to see things from such a different perspective. A great listen, but very dear Bill Kristol, you so deserve a better mic - I’d hang on your words anyway but it would be great if it wasn’t quite such a struggle! It really isn’t me - your guest’s mic was clear as a bell.

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David Muccigrosso's avatar

As he was breaking down the TX Dem base, I couldn’t help but think that a huge part of the problem is the extreme pro-choice wing of the party, who basically always overrules the other two wings he mentioned (Black and Hispanic moderates).

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Jan's avatar

Giving woman autonomy over their own bodies isn't an extremist position in the democratic partym

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David Muccigrosso's avatar

Oh please. There’s a difference between a vague right to choice and “no limits of any kind right up until birth”, which is toxic in any red state.

I watched as Democrats hounded every last pro-life or even just moderate Democrat out of our state party and rendered the entire state (MO) uncompetitive for a generation… BEFORE Trump came along. The purge was one of the biggest own-goals I’ve ever seen in politics.

And it was absolutely the fuck not necessary to simply maintain the general pro-choice character of the party. It was a choice, and it was a disastrous one that ultimately undermined and lost Roe, because all those Democrats who would’ve gotten elected would have voted for justices who would have protected Roe.

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Jan's avatar

A woman's right to autonomy is and should be a core tenet of the democratic party. What's a forced birth democrat? These days, a Republican. Do you have any example of moderate democrats who were willing to compromise on restrictions on elective third trimester abortions, being driven out of the party?

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Ann P's avatar

This guy is great! The Democrats need to get 1000% behind him, fund him up to their eyeballs and set him on Ken Paxton like a Doberman on a burglar. This is exactly the direction the Democrats need to go in if they want to ever have even a remote chance at getting our government out of the grips of the fascist Christian Nationalists who have taken over with their Orange God in the White House, and their Hillbilly Catholic Heretic as the VP. Please, please Democrats, WAKE UP. We are far too close to too late for comfort.

God Bless You, Michael Wood.

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Kennet Dall's avatar

It was an honor and pleasure to meet Michael today. He seems to me to be the kind of person we all should want to be in leading our country. I hope he runs for Senate. Thanks Bill for the interview.

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Christina Ronnberg's avatar

May MM and KM never know another peaceful night of rest for the rest of their miserable and stupid lives. Horrible humans.

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keith's avatar

wish i could give this conversation a hundred likes... thank you Bill and Michael!!!

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PapaG's avatar

Great guest, really appreciate his and everyone's service. He provided some fantastic insight describing his experiences. Hopefully he keeps pursuing politics, we need leaders like him. I love his humbleness.

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Monica in SoCal's avatar

As a liberal, of course I want my viewpoints to prevail in policy, but I can't convey strongly enough how relieved I am to have reasonable people to the right of me on the scene again. This is the way to constructive compromise and America is dying for it.

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Suzanne Clancy's avatar

Terrific guest, thank you, and we would be very fortunate to have him elected to the Senate.

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Franklin Michaels's avatar

Hearing, seeing and in an odd way meeting Michael Wood has been a life changing experience. Full stop.

Thank you for not only bringing him on but and conducting a great interview, I’m looking forward to hearing him again. And if this amazing young family man runs, I would be seriously tempted to max out the campaign contributions I can send him, more or less on Day One.

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Learned Resilience's avatar

Thank you for a thoughtful and thought-provoking conversation on this Memorial Day weekend, Bill. We definitely need astute leaders like Michael in Congress. He's right about relatability with constituents.

People want their voices heard and action taken on their behalf. Democrats who recognize Republicans have stopped listening and take initiative to connect with all walks of humanity will find support for sensible action.

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Justin Lee's avatar

As a Texan, we desperately need someone who can beat Ken Paxton, who is a terrible human being and a straight-up crook. Moderates tend to win the primaries here, so Michael would have an advantage over Roland Gutierrez if he runs again.

Colin Allred is also a moderate, but he just lost to Cruz, so I don't think he'll get much support. If Beto runs, he'll have a huge advantage in terms of name recognition and fundraising infrastructure. I donated to Beto's senate campaign in 2018 and I still get texts from him!

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Steve Spillette's avatar

I appreciate Beto's enthusiasm and willingness to put in the work. That said, he not only has made politically crazy statements (strict gun control) that I may not agree with, he also made some questionable or even condemnable votes back when he had actual power, most notably as an El Paso city councilman. He voted to destroy a historic (if poor) Mexican-American neighborhood to build an arena. I don't think he's ever owned up on accountability for that. Things like that make you really question his judgment.

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Tai's avatar

As a non-Texan, I see Allred as more moderate than Beto, but he is still an up and down Democrat aside from the border security issue I recalled. It will be very hard no matter what because the Democrat label is toxic in the state. But I deeply believe the party needs to be creative when facing such dire situation and a center left Dem will not be the solution.

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Will G's avatar

I made a comment on another podcast saying I was not a Beto fan. Honestly on the National stage going way back I think he's made statements that sank him like self sabotage. Im not a Texan so I don't really know much more about him or follow him, basically haven't heard much. He certainly has the name recognition but perhaps he's learned and matured from past foot in mouth. I wish him and any other options all the best. Paxton is horrible for sure. Like people have stated, this marine is a good guy, nice fellow..... I haven't seen anyone win with nice since forever.

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Tai's avatar

Beto ran a good senate campaign against Cruz in 2018. He seemed more moderate at the time. Then it got into his head that he could run for president two years later. After the tragedy of Uvalde, he took some strict gun control positions that made his chances in Texas impossible in my opinion. I like him but cannot picture him being the future of state wide or national politics.

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Ann P's avatar

Hasn’t Beto lost more than once already? Beto is NOT who anyone wants right now. He would go down in flames next to Ken Paxton. You need an ex-Republican center right ex-Marine who runs a truck repair company and has 4 kids under the age of 16. Mr Moderate Normal. Give those Texans someone they can relate to. Beto is not it.

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Linda Malboeuf's avatar

Exactly

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Cynical Pragmatist's avatar

100%! I'm not a Texan, so maybe I'm missing details. However, Beto comes off as a decent guy, but also a typical politician. Dems need a youth movement with brand new people who are smart and come off as a regular person.

They could win in '26 with a bunch of political novices, surrounded by experienced teams who understand nuts/bolts of campaigning and media to guide them. Michael Wood comes off exactly as the kind of guy who would be seen as authentic and relatable. Even in conservative Texas, there are several large metro areas and a lot of new people have moved to the state in the past few years. Does crooked-ass Ken Paxton appeal to those people?

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Justin Lee's avatar

I'm not saying he should run. I'm saying if he does run, he'll probably win the primary. Beto will rake in millions of dollars and be on the road doing townhalls for 18 months straight. In 2018, he spoke in all 254 counties at least once. It would be very hard for someone like Michael to compete against that.

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Ann P's avatar

You could be right about it being hard for Michael to compete against Beto, but Democrats need to wake up and smell the coffee. Beto will not beat Paxton. The kind of Democrats the party keeps running are going to lose against any MAGA candidate in any red state. Progressives are a LOST CAUSE. Did you see the NYT story today with all the details of this country’s giant move to the right? Almost 2/3 of the states, more than the entire eastern half of the country is now RED, and getting redder every day. If the Democrats don’t change course asap, we’re doomed.

Gift link:

“The Democrats’ problems run deep, nearly everywhere.”

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/05/25/us/politics/trump-politics-democrats.html?unlocked_article_code=1.J08.ZZoQ.wLWWi9ARJPNH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

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Justin Lee's avatar

We want to win. But it's a huge state with multiple media markets, so running here is super expensive and a full-time job. If Michael can do it, he should do it. But it would be an enormous sacrifice for him and his family.

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Ann P's avatar

Be that as it may, the Democrats need new candidates with a new message. The same old same old will lose no matter how much money you spend, how many counties you visit, or how many months you spend campaigning. Beto will lose. And I don’t want Ken Paxton in the Senate.

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meryl selig's avatar

Ann: you hit all the right points

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Justin Lee's avatar

I don't either. But before you write off Beto for good, check out his Commencement speech from two days ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ-PuYhy0NQ

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Claramargaret Groover's avatar

PS. I am a Florida Dem, fiscally rational, lawyer, in Orange County.

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Claramargaret Groover's avatar

Bill, is there any chance for “the good Republicans” to join the Dems to elect the fiscally sensible Dems/ and new Dems from the Republican Party who care about national security? I so hope it can happen.

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Claramargaret Groover's avatar

What a terrific, thoughtful and reflective young man!

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Joe Brown's avatar

Watched on YouTube. Very good conversation. And I hope he decides to pull the trigger on running.

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0:30
SPEAKER 2
No, thanks. Thanks for asking me. This is going to be fun. Thank you.