0:00
/
0:00
Transcript
0:00
SPEAKER 2
So let's just do it. This is exciting, Terry, because I'm welcoming you to the Bulwark podcast live on Substack. This is the first attempt at this for us. So hopefully it goes well for folks that don't know you. I assume everybody here knows you.
0:13
But you were senior national correspondent for ABC News up to about two seconds ago. Previously chief foreign correspondent, chief White House correspondent, co-anchor of Nightline. And now you're a free man. How's that feeling?
0:28
SPEAKER 1
Oh, well, it's somebody said somebody used the word skiting, which is a combination of scary and exciting. OK, which I'll buy. I would say it's exhilarating and daunting and scary. But but yeah, exhilarating. You know, I was at the point in my career,

“He Will Bring All The Power He Can”: Terry Moran on Trump’s Attacks On The Free Press and His Firing From ABC

Journalist Terry Moran was fired from ABC after a tweet criticizing Stephen Miller sparked an overblown backlash from the Trump administration. But Moran isn’t done. He joins Tim Miller to talk about Trump’s attacks on the free press, his Trump interview and what comes next.

Follow Terry now on his new Substack.

Leave a comment

As always: Watch, listen, and leave a comment. Bulwark+ Takes is home to short videos, livestreams, and event archives exclusively for Bulwark+ members.

Don’t care for video? Use the controls on the left side of the player to toggle to audio.

Add Bulwark+ Takes feed to your player of choice, here.

Discussion about this video

User's avatar
Bonnie's avatar

Too bad for ABC.

Expand full comment
Diane Battista's avatar

I love Terry saying

“ I don’t do theater”

Well, Trump does

Expand full comment
Diane Battista's avatar

I love that you have Terry on today thank you

I’m sorry, but I do believe he knew that the picture was Photoshop. He wasn’t fooled about anything.

After all, he’s the one that took a sharpie to a map to try to change the direction of the hurricane

Thinks he could change the name of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America by writing it on a map and insisting that Google ( who is totally compliant and capitulated ) has it on their maps

Crazymaking !

Yes, I believe he knew very well what he was trying to pawn off to Terry and the public

Expand full comment
Tonee G's avatar

Great interview.

Expand full comment
bob oakes's avatar

Does anyone else think that Miller is Trump's Rasputin? If nothing else, it seems like he is the son Trump wish he had.

Expand full comment
Robert J Danolfo's avatar

I'm sorry Terry lost his job . I just wish he had skewered Trump when he had the chance.

Expand full comment
Elyse Klein's avatar

Yesterday Trumps directive to stop ICE from taking away farm workers, hotel employees and meat packers seems to be gone. Stephen Miller , once again is in charge. Can he be questioned? Removed? The idea of impeachment seems to float around. Does anyone know if the entirety of the house judiciary committee needs to approve so this could go to a vote? And also the rules committee which weighs much heavier on the republican side.

The same threats that the right has set forth about those who don't vote as they want can be set against the house republicans who continue to support Trump.

Expand full comment
Monica in SoCal's avatar

Don't worry, Terry, Stephen Miller is incapable of any human feeling that you can hurt.

Expand full comment
John P's avatar

Re: Trump and the traditional tough persona.

Hitler was a failed artist, whose adolescent anger happened to attach itself to a political movement. He had the worst IBS the world has ever known, famous for clearing the room with his farts (seriously, look it up). He was on so many drugs and painkillers he was just making decisions almost at random by the end of WW2. He died a deluded failure, with bad bowel movements, with the blood of millions on his incompetent hands.

Stalin was nothing more than a gutter thug, who by accident found himself at the apex of the communist revolution. Only by being a nasty little shit did he take the top spot, and much like Hitler spent his life a paranoid and incompetent dictator.

Mao was a chubby mummy's boy, whose poor record keeping, and bad management (in addition to his anger issues) led to the deaths of tens of millions.

These aren't evil geniuses, they're morons, whose stupidity and flaws led to countless deaths. Yet, people call them “strongmen”. They’re wimpy little bitches who can’t stand anyone telling them they’re not perfect.

Expand full comment
PK's avatar
5dEdited

Make no mistake, this is an interview. Tim's seeing if Terry's going to be the next hire at The Bulwark. Play-by-Play: Terry made it through the toughest round (just) -- was he drunk when he dissed Steven Miller? Nope! Nice story, about getting non-alcohol cozy with the spouse and then happened to see that post at midnight from SM and had to respond. Who wouldn't? Right?! Phew! We're good, we're good. Then, warned his colleagues that Trump would win in 2016. Good! Definitely a man looking for a job. Deak 'em out, my man! Get on The Bulwark and let's hear some more of those years of pent-up rage at corporate media. Now's your chance, Terry.

Expand full comment
bob oakes's avatar

Sounds like you're not a fan.

Expand full comment
Deborah L. Hall's avatar

We all got a breaking point.

Expand full comment
vjcrish's avatar

Terry the Truth-teller!

Expand full comment
Dave Yell's avatar

Now that Terry Moran is a free agent, he is truly free. (like Jim Acosta) It worked out for Jim pretty well.

Expand full comment
John Sanderson's avatar

Great interview!

Terry Moran is a principled professional, and he did an excellent job in the Trump interview, and his observations about Steven Miller are absolutely accurate …. although it doesn’t take someone as astute as Terry to recognize the purulent emissions from Miller’s mouth. Terry had the balls to speak the truth about what we all know, though, and I vigorously applaud him for that.

And btw, Terry’s comment about how members of the Greatest Generation had no tolerance for braggarts & blowhards resonated deeply with me. I’m a former educator and coach, and without going into an analysis of all of the specifics, I will say that virtually EVERY SINGLE WORD coming out of Trump’s mouth, as well as EVERY ASPECT of his adult life, whether personal or “professional,” is diametrically opposed to the life lessons I attempted to impart to the young people I have taught and coached throughout my professional career.

Trump has disgusted me pretty much from the first moment I found out anything about him quite a few years ago. (Never watched The Apprentice, btw) And my disgust has done nothing but grow and intensify as I have witnessed Trump become the most divisive, most hateful, most overtly cruel, and most dangerous braggart & blowhard this nation has ever seen.

Expand full comment
JaneJ's avatar

I was blown away by Terry Moran--really articulate and direct while still being relatable and human. Also glad Terry got to speak uninterrupted b/c Terry was the person I wanted to hear.

Expand full comment
Anne Dorsey's avatar

Great conversation! It transcended 'interview'. I'm kinda with Judy, head spinning from proliferation of bulwarkers and substackers. But maybe that's the way it should be right now? The Wild West? I hope you can at least all band together when legal s**t starts raining down! A comment: I see trumpeting expansion of deportations as WEAKNESS and SPITE. This day after the No King protests and that tragic parade, things aren't going well for him. So he's going to spread pain however he can, lash out indiscriminately. Caged animal syndrome. And he looks like death warmed over. And now Israel and Iran. Yikes. I don't think he's having a whole lot of fun being Prez.

Expand full comment
MAJ G's avatar

Wow! Really great interview Tim! So glad we have Terry on this side of the fight! Please do regular checkins with him!

Expand full comment
Sherry's avatar

Thank you for this terrific interview! It was such a thoughtful and insightful discussion. Glad I stumbled upon it this morning.

Expand full comment
Judy's avatar
5dEdited

Great interview! Thanks, Tim, for having Terry on, and thanks Terry for coming to talk to us.

My 2 cents on the future of independent media: Y'all need to consolidate!!!!! No reason Bulwark can't be the center/top and you can bring all the people in - too many new voices and I want to hear them all. But I can't handle 15 different substack newsletters in my email inbox every day. Ex-journalists need a place where they can land and share all the real news, perspectives, etc. Guessing you're already deep in conversations such as this...the public needs it!! Start with Terry! Grab Jim Acosta! Anne Applebaum! All of the Contrarian! Adam Kinzinger! David Frum! Michael Weiss! and on and on!

Expand full comment
Ann P's avatar

In Moran’s ABC interview with Trump in the Oval Office, Trump said he picked Moran to do the interview because, “quite frankly, Terry, I’d never heard of you”. Trump didn’t expect any pushback from some ABC reporter he’d never heard of. And Moran’s pushback on the doctored photo was minimal at best. I thought it was a weak pushback actually. The fact that such a weak contradiction sent Trump into a hissy fit really does say a lot about him, and none of it good. I don’t understand why anyone obeys him, much less worships him. He really is the high school bully writ large.

Expand full comment
Ann P's avatar

That most recent bleat from Trump “I herewith order ICE by means of this TRUTH…”, if you read the whole thing (it’s long) sounded to me like a repudiation of his earlier statement that they were going to stop going after undocumented immigrants working in agriculture, restaurants, and the hotel industry. My take is that Stephen Miller went apoplectic when he saw that backing off of going after people picking crops and changing the sheets in hotels, so he beat Trump over the head to rescind that position and insist on going after EVERYBODY. You don’t think Trump doesn’t have friends with hotels and restaurants in Chicago and New York? Trump himself has hotels in those cities. It may seem like they’re just going after Democratic cities, but what it really looks like is Nosferatu Miller working his evil spell on Trump to give no quarter to any immigrant anywhere no matter what their job is or who they’re working for. Miller is evil personified.

Expand full comment
Dwight Homer's avatar

Terry Moran is an impressive man. I look forward to following him here on Substack, and joining forces, one way or another, with the Bulwark. Thanks to Tim for a memorable conversation.

Expand full comment
Diane Curtis's avatar

What smart guys! Considering them and the No Kings protests gives me hope that, yes, Terry Moran is right: The Good Guys will win.

Expand full comment
Bob Lupo's avatar

It's now beyond 'politics' or 'issues'.

The founding principles of the country are being attacked.

The Rule of Law and our three 'equal' branches of government with distinctive and offsetting powers are being replaced and overturned by Edict and by Force.

"We the people..." will have become a pathetic anachronism if this stands.

Speak out and be heard.

Expand full comment
Christine B.'s avatar

The NYT did a full write up of the contents of this interview without referencing Tim Miller or The Bulwark even once.

I draw two conclusions: first, this almost feels like a form of plagiarism and a failure of required citation of the source material; second, apparently the NYT is scared shitless of The Bulwark.

Keep up the good work.

Expand full comment
Parrhizzia's avatar

The NYT has a LONG history of not crediting others.

Expand full comment
Monica in SoCal's avatar

As I went there to inform them, they closed comments. Buncha weasels!

Expand full comment
Claudia johnson's avatar

Great interview!

Expand full comment
Roger Millnitz's avatar

Stephen Miller, poor soul, must’ve been severely bullied as a child. You can come out of it having empathy for others, and as a better, stronger person. OR you can come out of it with a hunger for vengeance for everyone, and deep hatred in your heart. Miller is such a heinous person, the torture he experienced as a child must’ve been incredible. It’s a shame. He’s inflicting great hardship to hard working people whose great sin is being brown-skinned. Thanks for not backing down, Terry!

Expand full comment
Robin Held's avatar

Great show Tim! Please have Terry back on! I really liked him!

Expand full comment
Tim_TEC's avatar
5dEdited

What Moran wrote on Twitter was all true. ABC is unable to handle the truth. Their loss is Substack's gain.

My only problem with Moran's tweet is he thought he had to delete it.

Expand full comment
Sabrina Wood's avatar

Excellent interview! Looking forward to another independent! If legacy media shutters itself they are no longer useful. No longer the fourth estate. Choose.

Expand full comment
Clarissa Sr, American Grandma's avatar

🇺🇸To My Beloved Grandparents: The Truth Is Still Ours to Share

First, I want to send a warm and hearty congratulations to everyone who took part in the No Kings protest yesterday. From coast to coast, grandparents, parents, and young folks alike stood shoulder to shoulder for truth, democracy, and the America we still believe in. Your voices were heard. Your peaceful presence made a powerful statement: we will not be ruled by fear, lies, or authoritarian fantasies. We’re still “We the People.” And we showed up.

But the march doesn’t end on the streets. After the No Kings protests, I had some heartfelt conversations in my own family—especially about why, in 2024, no one seemed to talk about how much the Biden Administration improved the economy after COVID; they feel this gap in information lead to Trump getting elected. That gap in coverage isn’t an accident—it’s a choice made by media outlets that don’t benefit from reporting progress. But we can help fill that gap. That’s why I want to talk honestly with you today about something that’s been weighing heavily on my heart: the difficulty of knowing what’s true anymore.

🧠

Truth is Hard to Find in Today’s Media World

Local newspapers—our once-reliable sources of community truth—have shut down across the country.

Billionaires have bought up major TV networks and national papers, deciding what gets covered—and what gets buried.

Social media algorithms reward outrage, conspiracy theories, and lies, repeating them endlessly until they feel familiar—even when they’re false.

It’s no wonder so many people feel lost, angry, or misled. Even topics like the economy, which can be measured with numbers and facts, have become battlegrounds for spin and propaganda.

I’ll be honest: the clearest picture of what’s really going on comes from the kinds of things most people don’t have time (or patience) to sort through—economic charts, job statistics, spending patterns, labor market graphs. Economists use these tools every day. But most people don’t, and that’s where the manipulators thrive.

📊

The Truth About the U.S. Economy in 2024—In Plain Language

Let’s remember what really happened:

The entire world shut down in 2020 because of COVID. Every economy crashed.

But in the years that followed, America led the global recovery.

By 2023–2024, we had:

Stronger GDP growth than any other G7 nation

Falling unemployment and rising wages in several key sectors

A powerful rebound in consumer spending that helped other economies recover too

A resilient dollar and global trust in the U.S. financial system

But many people still believe that the Biden Administration left our economy is in ruins. Why? Because they’re only hearing one version of the story—often from partisan outlets like Fox News, that only show what fits their political goals.

The truth doesn’t always make the news because it doesn’t stir anger, drive ratings, or sell ads.

🧓👵

A Call to My Fellow Grandparents

You and I—we remember a different time. We grew up with Walter Cronkite, with local reporters we could meet at the grocery store. We remember when the news was trusted. Today, our kids and grandkids are being misled by a media environment designed to divide and enrage, not inform.

✅ If you believe in the messages I share here, please copy and customize them for your Facebook, emails, or family chats.

✅ Add your voice. Make it personal. Tell your children and grandchildren what you have seen, what you have lived through, and what you still believe in.

✅ If you marched, tell them why. If you stayed home, tell them what you’re standing for.

This is our time to make an impact—not just in protests, but in conversations that shape the future.

Let’s keep showing up, speaking up, and lifting up the truth—because the next generation needs us now more than ever.

With purpose and pride,

✍🏼 Clarissa Sr.

American Grandma 🇺🇸

Expand full comment
Jeff Biss's avatar

Fuck the right and their whining that the press exposes itself as liberal as they claim here in the comment about Miller. This regime has willfully violated the constitution and should hang for it, for treason.

Liberalism is based on inherent rights, equality under the law, equal opportunity and consent to and participation in governance. Conservatism opposes those and is diametrically opposed to them.

Expand full comment
Adam's avatar

Nice lil nugget on Trump telling Steven Chung to get the photoshopped MS13 picture so he could show Terry.

Expand full comment
Celia's avatar
5dEdited

Great live pod! Interesting discussion, and very brave to do it live, Tim -- and seems like it went off without a hitch! Trump is definitely not tough. SOFT TACO. (Apologies for the Trump-esque all caps.)

Expand full comment
Roger Millnitz's avatar

Love it! Soft taco….why didn’t I think of that?

Expand full comment
KB's avatar

For the life of me why networks don’t protect themselves by severing NEWS 100 % from ENTERTAINMENT is beyond me. How simple!

Expand full comment
max skinner's avatar

Financial reasons. There is no money in news. Look at print media dying due to lack of advertisers. The beginning of the end of print newspapers was when classified ads started going on Craigslist instead of in the local paper. Readership is decreasing. Advertisers know that everyone looks online for their "news" these days.

Expand full comment
Carrie's avatar
5dEdited

Let us not forget that Russian propaganda/influence helped Brexit to pass, as it helped Trump to get elected in 2016.

Really looking forward to your reporting from Springfield, Terry! Thank you.

Expand full comment
Anne Lowe's avatar

The best you can say about Trump's lies and his insistence that he's right is that he is the definition of cognitive dissonance (which isn't good at all). In retrospect, you could have acknowledged his cogntive disonance in place of agree to disagree. Hindsight is always so much clearer than in the moment.

Expand full comment
A Sarcastic Prophet's avatar

Terry Morgan’s comments on Stephen Millers being and soul are not political- they are about a human who lacks so much of what makes us good humans. Our children watch us and we have a responsibility to speak the truth. And here’s to old dads- my dad was 52 when I was born. He gave me a way to understand the world that a younger dad would not have had the time or knowledge to give. Trump has dropped a pile of shit at each of our doorsteps. The only way out is through and the only way through is together. Thank you Terry for your time and wisdom!

Expand full comment
Jordan Hunter's avatar

I hope these targeted journalists join or create their own medial platforms to continue to shout out Trump's unConstitutional assaults on the free press. He will continue to fire anyone who refuses to kiss his ass. If journos stop just bc cowardly news orgs fire them we will soon all be living in Nazi Germany, as Stephen Miller (the creepiest man in govt -- makes my skin crawl) hopes. Do we good men and women do nothing? Or keep touting what these people are doing.

Expand full comment
Sabrina Wood's avatar

💯 well said

Expand full comment
Anne Lowe's avatar

Terry Moran's tweet about Stephen Miller was accurate and true. And people in "power" need to be saying it loud and often. He's under the radar for Americans who don't watch Fox and who aren't news junkies.

Loud. And. Often.

Expand full comment
TheresaB's avatar

Stephen Miller is not an elected official and he has an outsized influence on the federal government. The fact that ABC News fired Terry Moran over a tweet about Miller just highlights how MSM has bent the knee to Trump and MAGA.

Expand full comment
Anne Lowe's avatar

Yes! You are so right.

Expand full comment
Jane Stevenson's avatar

I loved this! I like his joyfulness and I'm glad he has found his way out of the corporate media. I thought his interview with the Mad King was excellent. Thanks for having him on. In re Stepjhen Miller: there is a reason that in memes he's always Nosferatu. Terry just named it.

Expand full comment
Debra K's avatar

Mr Moran, I emailed 3 ABC News executives about their cowardice and yielding to Trump and trampling the 1st amendment when they suspended you. They didn’t bother to even send a formulaic response. Your firing is dangerous. I understand that you are trying to make the best of it, but you need to speak out about defense of democracy. I hope you didn’t make any deal with ABC that requires you to stay silent about the truth.

Expand full comment
Daniel's avatar

For the love of god, why didn't you let him get the photoshopped image?

Expand full comment
Terence Rafferty's avatar

Wow a Humphrey Democrat. I live in Minnesota. I am the same age as Terry and think of myself as a Kennedy Democrat. But Hubert WAS one of the greats too.

Expand full comment
Kim Donaldson's avatar

What a courageous journalist. Let's just go with Orwell who said: In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revoltionary act. Thank you, Terry.

Expand full comment
Walternate 🇺🇦🇨🇦🇪🇺🇹🇼🇩🇰🇬🇱🇲🇽🇵🇦's avatar

I love the closing message from Tim: All right. How do we end this thing?

Expand full comment
Sabrina Wood's avatar

😂

Expand full comment
Nick Perri's avatar

Great interview! I really appreciate my fellow Chicagoan, Terry Moran! Especially since he's a Cubs fan. Go Cubs! Fuck, Pete Ricketts.

Expand full comment
Sandra Rodriguez's avatar

Terry Moran thank you for standing up and speaking truth!

Expand full comment
gerri caldarola's avatar

And, that's why your criticism of Miller is so right on -- Miller's playbook is from 1984, i.e., "how many fingers do you see?"

Expand full comment
Debra K's avatar

Exactly! Trump Regime is following the playbook of Owell and their MAGAt supporters just lap up the lies and false reality. They all lie nonstop. Eg. LA is not burning down. It was not burning down before Trump sent troops. And now we have twice as many troops in LA as Iraq.

Expand full comment
DEM's avatar

Terry Moran is an American hero--he courageously put it all on the line to speak the truth.

ABC, with the Stephanopoulos cave and the firing of Mr Moran, has shown itself to be a business cowering in fear of the President. Thank you, Tim, for this very interesting and uplifting interview with Mr. Moran.

Expand full comment
Sharon's avatar

Love that Terry wants to continue his reporting. It will be a good addition to the Bulwark.

Expand full comment
Bruce Riegel's avatar

Great interview. My respect for Terry Moran is immeasurable.

Expand full comment
Kelly O'Brien's avatar

Terry, Steven Miller, clearly, only lacks a Gestapo uniform to complete his look, and send the message his voice communicates.

ABC is shameful in releasing you. Thanks for standing up and risking your well-being for sake of democracy and reasonableness. I’m with you and governing from the ‘center’. Tats where we’ve always been successful as a democracy!

😍💕💯%

Expand full comment
Debra K's avatar

I bet Miller wears one at home.

Expand full comment
Joan Phillips's avatar

Thank you so much for intending to return to Springfield.

Expand full comment
Elizabeth's avatar

Why are more people not frustrated with Stephen Miller's character and behavior?? He is the evil behind the curtain. Trump's handler.

Expand full comment
Sharon Griffith's avatar

Always a fan, TM. Two years older than you with young nephews also. Agree with it all and totally get it. A written form of regurgitation trying to return the bile they(us?) dish out on a daily. Didn’t you feel better after writing it?! All the best❣️

Expand full comment
Stelladona's avatar

His tweet was great, have you seen Stephen Miller's DEAD eyes and his constant violent verbiage, Tim?

Expand full comment
Debra K's avatar

Tim sometimes shows his Republican roots. His pearl clutching over Terry Moran’s post is one of those times. Has Tim heard Fox News??

Expand full comment
Rich Welch's avatar

Great interview. Terry Moran, who has always struck me as a fair-minded reporter, wrote truthfully about a public figure - something that clearly is risky in today's media, particularly in media with corporate interests in sucking up to the Trump administration. And, as we know, this is at a time when we need courageous and honest news organizations more than ever. Thank you and best wishes to Terry Moran.

Expand full comment
Kate's avatar

I see nothing abnormal about ruminating about Stephen Miller at any hour of the day. He appears to have started hating professionally as far back as high school.

Expand full comment
Elizjteacher's avatar

I think ABC may have made a Yuge mistake…

Expand full comment
Steve Beckwith's avatar

I was not aware of Mr. Moran before this episode with his tweet. This interview has shown me he is a great American. He's obviously a sane, thinking citizen.

Expand full comment
Elizabeth's avatar

Love this guy Terry Moran. A fan!

Expand full comment
Oblique Irony's avatar

Great talk. Have him on again.

On the MS-13 Arial font "tattoo," I thought at the time Moran was right to move on when he did.

1) Everyone whose brain works enough to remember to breathe while sleeping has seen DT be "obviously wrong and/or lying" about something, and nothing's really changed.

2) You could tell DT was huffing & puffing up to filibuster a large remainder of the interview, veering into one of his go-to tantrums against the media in aggregate. I think Moran was smart to move on, to solicit a more diverse portfolio of, you know, more obvious bullshit.

Expand full comment
Debra K's avatar

Exactly. While I think it’s important to confront Trump’s lies in interviews when they are important for educating the public (eg.he did not save LA w/ troops; he didn’t win 2020 election; GOP is drastically cutting Medicaid) Trump will NEVER back down. Tim is wrong. Trump will never ever admit he’s wrong. If he changes his mind, he already thought that way all along. Or it’s his move in “4-D chess.” 🙄

Expand full comment
tom skirvin's avatar

Absolutely fascinating interview, Tim. Thank you so much for bringing your perfect blend of sharp intelligence and insight to this world we find ourselves in. As I often do after listening to you interviewing a person of current interest and importance - I didn't know how interesting and important they were until you brought them to us. Good luck to Terry, and everyone in a similar position. We are blessed to have you, and him, many others helping fight the fight.

Expand full comment
Steve Beckwith's avatar

Trump is not tough, true. At the same time, the Monster calls out to the monsters in each MAGA heart and they turn to him adoringly. The flying monkeys flock to the action.

Expand full comment
David Ehlinger's avatar

Putting the military in cities and avoiding the farms and hotels doesn't sound like the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. Nor does denying Democratic and unmarried vets

medical care. The Guardian has that story.

Expand full comment
Mary Giannini's avatar

NYT opinion piece on six Russian words/concepts that are beginning to describe experience here in the US.

Expand full comment
Steve Beckwith's avatar

The regime's approach to the border deserves nothing but horrified contempt. Even grudging acknowledgement that it has been "successful" in some way is so bad that it's not even wrong.

Expand full comment
Sabrina Wood's avatar

No normalising; it very simply leads to worse shit. It’s FEAR they want and are getting at the border and it’s despicable. We need immigrants. Full stop.

Expand full comment
Steve Beckwith's avatar

Exactly.

Expand full comment
DW's avatar

This was a wonderful interview. I really enjoyed it.

Expand full comment
Left in WashState's avatar

Excellent interview Tim! Loved Terry's explanation of what journalists are. They can't be totally objective (who can?), but they must be fair and honest.

Thanks again!

Expand full comment
Gisele Dubson's avatar

Great conversation. As to the border, we have had in the past surges of immigrants due to conditions beyond the control of the US. It will happen again under Trump.

Expand full comment
Judy Kaplan's avatar

Terry, we are in fascism. Thank you for calling it as it is. We have to unite💪🏻

We are fighting for freedom.

BTW, Trump promised the people of Vermont, in first term, he would get rid of the fentanyl trafficking. It never happened. Instead, now, he welcomed cartel families into U.S.

Trump is a “stone cold liar”.

Expand full comment
Logical American's avatar

I’d like to ask, Terry if he wants to reconsider describing the MAGA movement as an “important” movement.

Expand full comment
Suzanne Hanson's avatar

Tim, I'm not in your position. It's likely I'm not equipped to make this judgement, but why were you needling him? He tweeted the truth. Kudos to him. Why are you second guessing him? I for one, am greatful. I see it as bravery.

Expand full comment
Shana's avatar

I 12/10 don't care whether it was appropriate. A journalist said what needed to be said, in a time when not nearly enough are. As soon as "the other side" learns what professionalism is, we can start nitpicking actual pros like Terry.

Expand full comment
Gigi's avatar
5dEdited

It was depressing observing ABC virtue signal the Trump Administration by firing an exceptional journalist. He worked there for decades, did a great job, and had the right to defend himself for telling the truth about Miller. Moran's interview with Trump revealed Donny as the ignorant, gullible bully we know him to be. Trump's comments about the Declaration of Independence (in the Oval Office, no less!) were not only clueless. but also reflected his inclination toward believing kings and dictators are beneficent figures to be loved. Looking forward to Terry's reporting on Springfield, Ohio. Best wishes to him on his new career path.

Expand full comment
Steve Beckwith's avatar

Good people have a point beyond which they can not tolerate evil. I salute Mr. Moran for his righteous forthrightness. Too bad some people have become so intimidated that they think one must be drunk to be publicly honest about something so critically important.

Expand full comment
Judy Kaplan's avatar

Trump is definitely not mentally well. He’s mean, cruel, advocates violent. Stephen Miller has the same characteristics. SM is displayed on fb as a vampire, the top human predator, lol 😂 I guess my career in journalism is doomed😂

Expand full comment
Left in WashState's avatar

I really think saying Miller is a vampire give him too much stature. He's a sniveling, manipulative, suck up. He's Wormtongue, Iago and Renfield all rolled into one.

Expand full comment
Donna Rae Morrow's avatar

Trump probably wanted Moran fired as well after his interview. Pretty sure Trump was not happy with that great interview.

Expand full comment
Steven Insertname's avatar

Can we stop calling it "Trump 2.0"? "2.0" sounds too much like an upgrade. More like "Trump part deux".

Expand full comment
Justin Lee's avatar

Yeah. "The Empire Strikes Back" is probably too long, and it wouldn't be fair to Darth Vader.

Expand full comment
Stephanie Moran's avatar

A Great man in a tough time. Needed more than ever Nowadays 👍

Expand full comment
Justin Lee's avatar

I was trying to think of the last time I watched ABC News. I think Peter Jennings was anchoring.

Expand full comment
Steven Insertname's avatar

I think the last time I watched ABC News was on 9/11, and only bkz Jennings was the last anchor to stay on the coverage after everybody else had gone back to regular programming.

Expand full comment
Paula Wolk's avatar

Oh give me a break. All you male pundits who didn't know what Hilary Clinton Stood for. Did you ever read her anything about her early life, what she was rewarded for and what she was denied sympathy for? We women knew what she stood for. You guys, David Brooks among many, cost her the election. The Misogny was and is horrific.

Expand full comment
Bruce Lawrence's avatar

When HRC abandoned the TPP, she made it clear that she did not really stand for anything. Like so many politicians, she just wanted to be president for the sake of being president, not for reasons of policy or ideology. She just wanted to fill in the last line on her resume.

Expand full comment
Judith Hofeditz's avatar

Great interview! Love the idea of Terry going back to Springfield OH and reporting how the community has been impacted by anti-immigrant policies!

Expand full comment
Julia Preston's avatar

Terrific interview, Tim. I am often up past midnight, losing sleep ruminating Stephen Miller's macabre worldview, as well. Sometimes I use a thesaurus to find just the right descriptors. I wish Terry Moran great success and and look forward to the Springfield visit and report.

Expand full comment
LordHarromont's avatar

Hey Tim.

I hear you might be doing a Zoran Mamdani interview at some point in the future. I listened to part of a rally he held. AOC spoke there, and she flat out stated that if Zoran won, he'd be running for president next.

Just mentioning it so you don't forget to ask about that.

Expand full comment
Justin Lee's avatar

In The Bulwark Age, no Democrat worth their salt would run for president without first doing a podcast with Tim.

Expand full comment
Julia Preston's avatar

She said if Cuomo won he would be running for president.

“When I say that this is not just about New York City, but that this is about the United States, I mean that literally because Andrew Cuomo has made clear that if he wins this race, he wants to run for president of the United States,” Ocasio-Cortez, who’s 35, said at Mamdani’s event in Manhattan. Politico

Expand full comment
LordHarromont's avatar

Than I misheard. There was a lot of cheering that made it hard to hear. You got to give the left wing of the democrats this, they know how to bring the energy.

Expand full comment
Jerry Norman's avatar

Like Terry's style, would like him paired with Mona Charen, maybe in the old Conversation format she and three others once had. Like hearing the good guys will win, agree it's a privilege to speak out. (Yes, can visualize Miller in a cave.)

If teamed up with Mona, Terry could be the liberal capable of moderation and Mona would be the conservative capable of the same. Seeing examples of people able to converse with intelligence, mutual respect and dignity? It teaches us all HOW to converse with the other side. Many MAGA-adjacent not the same as gung-ho MAGA, but switchable.

Know multiple Minnesotans. Minnesota has a culture of moving to the middle in order to keep conversations going. Stumbles happen, but are corrected, Think that's why Trump has added popular Minnesotan Gov ( Walz) to his hate list? How dare Walz nominate both liberals and conservatives to some committee!

Expand full comment
Steve's avatar

Good interview. I was a local- and state-level journalist back in the Before Times, when there tended to be a pretty clear line between being an "objective" reporter and an opinion writer at mainstream media outlets. Times have certainly changed, but I'm old school enough that if I were still a reporter, I would avoid using social media to express opinions on topics I was likely to cover. Even in the absence of higher ups with economic interests that compromised their journalistic integrity, it's easier to build trust with a wide range of sources when one isn't viewed as biased.

By the same token, I could see why ABC News would have felt the need to reassign Terry to a role where his "objectivity" was not relevant. But firing an outstanding reporter for posting in his off-hours an opinion that was harsh but accurate? That was a short-sighted move which I hope the journalism profession will loudly condemn.

Expand full comment
Doug & Gabi Main's avatar

Great interview.

Tim, I've been meaning to tell you that when Charlie left, I expected to feel a big absence. Far from it....you're really good at this, and we appreciate it.

Expand full comment
Terry Smith's avatar

Good for you Tim. Terry Moran was a brilliant interview and I totally support his take on Stephen Miller. I believe Miller would have been proud to be a member of the Waffen SS. It is hard to think of the words needed to truthfully describe the depth and sickness of Miller's evil.

BTW, as a 100% disabled USMC Vietnam veteran I point out whenever I can that the Commander-in-Chief is a draft dodger. So much for his "tough guy" routine.

Meanwhile, I wish Moran a successful way forward and hope we will be hearing from him regularly.

Terry Smith

Expand full comment
Jerry Norman's avatar

To our USMC Viet Nam vet, Terry Smith. you might like this post from today, by retired Lt Gen. Mark Hertling. He posts here on vet issues. This time, wrote on how multiple in the military felt demeaned by the Pres taking over THEIR parade on Sat., on top of sending others off for domestic things they should not be sent to, on top of using graduation events for political attacks. Read Hertling's post for today at

TheBulwark.com/p/how-the-Military-can-regain-public-trust-trump-Army-Parade-Fort-Bragg-Los-Angeles-National-Guard-Marines

We have 3 generations of military in our family, Adult child has confirmed that, despite faults (something no one is without), the military is an organization that promotes people based on competence and merit, not on wealth of the parents or how pretty they smile when on TV. He notes normal instruction on parade decorum was not given to all soldiers in attendance on Sat., as seen in prior parades. Am appalled at proposed cuts in Vet programs and at Vet hospitals. All of you deserve better.

Expand full comment
Left in WashState's avatar

Thank you for your service then....and now.

Expand full comment
Maxine Milner Krugman's avatar

Thank you for this opportunity to watch and listen to Terry Moran. He is someone worthy of our trust.

Expand full comment
Karon Harrold's avatar

Disappointed in you Tim. Your glibness is often amusing, but not today . To harp on the speculation that Moran’s excoriation of Stephen Miller was a drunk tweet was bad form. Maybe one mention and then move on. You are talking to a guy whose life has just been turn upside down. Some seriousness please. And the ambush if Zelensky in the White House “ a kids food fight”?!?! Wtf?

Expand full comment
Julie's avatar

Since Trump's first term, I can see that my public life has gotten smaller in some ways, in part because of where I live (ruby red state). If I were to speak my mind in the way I want to at times, I would lose a large part of my family and friends. I'm careful about what I say, especially to whom. However, my inner life has increased greatly because of my exploration of different opinions and my quest for accurate information. While increasingly limiting, Trump's devastating, hateful presidency has made me work much harder, which is not necessarily a bad thing. This conversation with Terry Moran was excellent, and I thank you for it.

Expand full comment
Shana's avatar

Ooh. Grim but uplifting. As an 18-year-resident (former) of ruby red states, GIRL. I feel you. I had to quit riding my bike there because giant bro trucks tried multiple times to run me off the road, yelling about Obama because only libs ride bikes and it's okay to try to kill them on sight I guess? I stayed and fought as long as I could, then GTFO'd seven years ago and should have done it much sooner. If you ever decide to leave, the PNW is full of kind and well-intentioned people who believe in community. ;)

Expand full comment
Julie's avatar

It helps knowing about other people's stories as well, Shana. Thank you. I've been thinking about the PNW. It's beautiful. You gave me a boost.

Expand full comment
WDD's avatar

Tim, your game as an interviewer is in top-form. This is fine work.

Expand full comment
Shana's avatar

Right? He's getting SO good. He's BEEN good, obviously, but is impressing me more and more regularly, which is not how these things generally work with a) the media and b) public figures (though I guess he still has time for a Lindsay Lohan phase). :) Impassioned and militant but thoughtful and deeply empathetic is a tough balance and he's damn near perfected it, as has Sarah. Who knew comms people would be so central to the "resistance?" (I mean, they did, obvs.... :) Thanks to everyone who helps make the Bulwark and the pro-democracy movement what they are. <3

Expand full comment
Laurie McSpadden's avatar

“Vile” would best describe SM on a good day. A compliment!

Expand full comment
Shana's avatar

He's legit scary, which I find a bit disconcerting, because normally I wouldn't see someone so twisted and hateful and pathetic as intimidating. Totally unhinged, and I shudder to think about what skeletons live in and will live in his (and now our) closets. We deserve whatever we get for allowing a psychopath (really, multiple psychopaths just clustered around that one couch during their little skits in the Oval) to take control of our country.

Moran was so precise with his words in this interview, had even more time to choose the ones that got him in trouble...and chose chaos. I'm a rule-follower and a get-alonger and hell, I'll just say it, a reformed hall monitor type, and even I recognize it as the right choice. The fact that he could *and should* have worded it differently or not worded it at all, but conscience won out. If there is ANYTHING this country needs right now, it's conscience. Hats off to Terry, a good American.

I'd like to say the terms of his eventual deal (if they become public, which they likely won't) will determine whether I boycott ABC/Disney, but the nail in THAT coffin was the Stephanopoulos settlement -- and I was raised on Peter Jennings and civic duty, so that was a gut punch. Seems like the legacy media, knowing that they're in a downward spiral, has decided to tank like a losing sports team? IDK, but I just dumped my last legacy subscription (NYT).

Expand full comment
Phillip B Ruehlen's avatar

Great interview Tim! I respect Terry for his statements.

Expand full comment
Laurie McSpadden's avatar

Well done Tim Miller! I’m delighted for you and the bullwark that you were able to be one of the first to snag an interview with Terry. He has a story to tell, that’s for sure. I look forward to more “journalists gone wild” in the very near future and REALLY look forward to hearing more honest depictions, and assessments on the crazy shit that’s happening in our country right now. You are the best!!

Expand full comment
Shana's avatar

OMG JGW I love it. Somebody tell Katie Phang, she's def one of 'em. :)

Expand full comment
Kim Bart's avatar

Terry didn't lie! I've known Nosferatu was evill since Trump 1.0

Expand full comment
Robert J Danolfo's avatar

Tim & Terry, Interesting chat. Quite frankly I'm not sure what to make of it. Seems I heard some complimentary things said about Trump. It's like, despite all the evidence that he's one of the worst human beings ever, we have to find something to give him credit for. Example, he really did a great job on the border. Really? We had a bipartisan bill legislated that would have passed with out this clown shutting it down. You know, like government is supposed to work. He got people to focus on immigration and drugs. Great, with the solution being what? ICE raids with no due process, military on our streets and ignoring and threatening our judicial system. Works for Steven Miller. I'm sorry but I believe the main stream media knew all about this clown on day one 10 years ago. They played this game for a lot of selfish reasons and did a disservice to the country. Finally, too many people in our country do not understand what obligations and responsibilities are implicit in the word citizen. Oh, but they love their snake oil.

Expand full comment
Scott Murphy's avatar

I absolutely loathe Stephen Miller and I'm more than willing to share that opinion. What set me back about Moran's comment was that he framed it as an ad hominem attack on that creepy man. Moran is free to step outside his professional persona in service of authenticity, but it works better for me under the rubric: This I Believe.

Expand full comment
Denise Wallace's avatar

Outstanding interview !

Expand full comment
Pat Georgeson's avatar

There was nothhing but truth in statement. It was not 'strong" 'language or "inappropriate" in his statememt. It is trith. Mr. Moran speaks truth. Thank you. I wish you the best.

Expand full comment
Shana's avatar

It was inappropriate under the old norms. Fortunately, ain't nobody got anything valid to say against it now since the GOP threw every norm it could find on a freaking bonfire and I am done holding Dems to impossibly high standards.

Expand full comment
Judith Hofeditz's avatar

That tweet said everything I have felt about Miller for a long time. Glad Terry is liberated from corporate media!

Expand full comment
Jerry Norman's avatar

Some of us type things middle of the night, as thoughts creep into our head that WAKE US UP! Bad people with bad acts are nightmares hard to get out of the head, unless we write about them (loving spouse prefers that, to being woken up).

Expand full comment
John Kennedy's avatar

Great interview and Terry best of luck in the future.

Expand full comment
Karen's avatar

Dont be fooled. He backed off about ICE BEFORE his parade failed and the No Kings Protest was huge. Then he tweeted at the states that the protestors came out strongest. Its a tantrum, clearly. Full STop.

Expand full comment
Femvixen's avatar

I normally listen to ABC News Start Here in the morning when I'm working out. I haven't liked it as much lately since it is all Trump news. Terry Moran being fired made me decide to find another source for my runs.

Expand full comment
klsmd's avatar

C

Expand full comment
Sue's avatar

Great interview!

Expand full comment
jim rapson's avatar

This was great. I didn’t expect this interview and I appreciate it a lot.

Expand full comment
Joan V. Talbert's avatar

Wonderful interview. Looking forward to seeing Terry on Substack. Very knowledgeable about world events.

Expand full comment
Leslie Baxter's avatar

Thank you for recording this!!

Expand full comment
jackson's avatar

Great interview. Terry sounds like a straight shooter. Someone we need more of

Expand full comment
EC's avatar

Unfortunately the clown show admin is forcing reasonable journalists out through intimidation at the exec level. Bunch of cowards who need to find their moral compasses.

Expand full comment
Deborah Spicknall's avatar

Glad to see you on Substack

Expand full comment
Sara Ellen Midkiff Minor's avatar

In the early 1990’s the Georgia Supreme Court banned the KKK from wearing the hood part of their costumes in public. They could still wear their robes but could not obscure their faces. I’m not certain if that case is still law in Georgia but if you can ban the KKK from obscuring their faces, some of the same arguments could be argued to apply even more strongly to masked federal agents.

Expand full comment
Carrie Shaw's avatar

Terry Moran's comments about Stephen Miller were spot on and reflect how I've felt about Miller for the past 10 years.

Expand full comment
Cynthia Bennett's avatar

Mr. Moran, it had to be done and I'm glad you said it out loud.

Expand full comment
Neal Bishop's avatar

Congratulations on your spot on tweet and congratulations and good luck to whatever you choose to explore. Read the stoics.

Expand full comment
amalie's avatar

Trump has extra hate for him because of his hair envy.

I'm proud of you for saying the things in your heart. The door that it opened is going to help change the country for the better. Keep up the good trouble!

Expand full comment
theOriginalNicole's avatar

He is delusional, mean, incompetent, insecure bully.

Expand full comment
Julie's avatar

You nailed Stephen Miller to a tee, IMO. It was delicious to have it described so succinctly.

Expand full comment
Jennifer Phillips's avatar

ABC just lost my viewership. MSNBC has lost most of my attention, too. Hate to see big media cowtowing. Glad for a variety of alternatives...including you guys and The Financial Times and still so far the NYT and CNN.

Expand full comment
Jerry Norman's avatar

1) VERY USEFUL to look at local TV stations and what's left of local newspapers, thus skip the national network overviews. EXAMPLE--Checked youtube for Minnesota news, thus found Minneapolis station KARE 11, ahead of everybody else in researching the political killings early Sat that caused MN to call off most its King's Day events. The KARE 11 reporters quickly drew a picture of a militarized man with security guard equipment and police-style vehicle, due to a family biz in that, easy to fake being a cop. (He called himself Christian, yet had three AK-47s and a hit list with 70 names. They'd found his childhood friend, known since age 4, who'd housed the shooter recently. The friend was in tears over what was happening, early confirmed the shooter as a Trump voter.

2) Be selective at MSNBC. At youtube, an extra-good reporter I like pops up if I type:: msnbc deadline white house

(I use filter icon to select today or this week)

3 Also to check in the UK, The Guardian and Bloomberg/Business Week. Are others.

Expand full comment
Bettina's avatar

You were right and showed courage. Unbelievably hypocritical for Miller to keep referring to "radicals." What could be more radical than his strategy for undocumented immigrants? El Salvador prison, South Sudan, Libya, armed home and masked school and workplace invasions and constant posts by Trump, Miller, Vance spewing hatred and accusations. Was it all right for Secretary Noem to ridicule and attack Governor Newsom and the Mayor of Los Angeles. This Administration regularly calls people traitors, who do not agree with them. The House Speaker suggesting protesters should be "tarred and feathered!" Calling Miller and Trump haters is, sadly, accurate.

Expand full comment
Duane Pierson's avatar

Since the Republican Party, and at one point they knew better at the leadership level, never reined in demagogue Trump, then it's up to the other branches of govt, other levels of govt, the ppl & the press.

So Terry Moran in a post called Miller & Trump haters. Well, that's how they talk & act many times. That's accurate reporting/commenting that cost him his job. As is obvious, Trump the demagogue & hater should've been stopped long ago by R leadership.

Now Trump controls the party, which has a large enough authoritarian base to allow him to control the party. That base has always been there, but other Republican leaders kept it more in check, unlike Trump's exploitation of it.

We all see the horrors of Trump 2.0, and how it could easily lead to martial law. So, kudos to Terry and Jim Acosta & others for speaking up.

Expand full comment
Lynette Marshall's avatar

I really admire Terry Moran and he speaks the truth

Expand full comment
theOriginalNicole's avatar

Trumpler, pathological liar with chronic delusional victim complex, has gaslit the American people.

And, but, hey were well-lubed, with 30 years of Fox industrial complex lie machine prep.

Expand full comment
Agnes Donegan's avatar

Stephen Miller is a petty, mean-spirited little man who I would assume would only be employed by same.

Expand full comment
Elyse Klein's avatar

Terry Moran, you are not old. I'm almost 80, I'm old. ABC was and is in the wrong place. Stephen Miller is an abomination and in point of fact he may be running the country- sometimes- he sanctioned the attack some months ago , green lighted he said. Trump of course has no idea as to how to govern. Project 2025 is at the helm.

Expand full comment
theOriginalNicole's avatar

Re what Trumpler said 10 years ago today:

Right, he said, “…and they’re sending the drugs.”

Well, yeah, but we are buying them.

Expand full comment
jamie cicatiello's avatar

Rock n Roll Terry! Rock n Roll!

Expand full comment
Lisa Lively!'s avatar

Thank you for being so direct and hearfelt! You nailed Miller that explains it all. 👏🏻 you ✨️ were 💯

Expand full comment
Carole Langston's avatar

Mr. Moran, you and Scott BRING IT.

Expand full comment
Cindy's avatar

Excellent interview! Thank you.

Expand full comment
Claudia johnson's avatar

Steven Cheung is another one.

Expand full comment
Shana's avatar

Nobody is as gross as Miller, but Cheung is HIGH on the despicability index. What a small, hateful man.

Expand full comment
Paul Topping's avatar

Good interview! I still don't understand why both of you insist that Trump actually believes the stuff he says. You both know he would rather lie than breath. When he insists that Abrego Garcia has a real MS-13 tattoo, he is lying just like he lies when he says that the 2020 election was stolen. You wonder why people think Trump is a tough guy. This is why! He sticks with his lies in the face of people exposing them and in the face of obvious truth. Only a tough guy can get away with that.

Expand full comment
Sheila Palmer's avatar

Your tweet was right on. It is so true that you can see his hatred in his face.

Expand full comment
theOriginalNicole's avatar

And I loved your “Stephen Miller tweet…”

Expand full comment
Mary Kate Trausch's avatar

Is this going to be on YouTube too?? My mom went to gradeschool with Terry (St Raymond’s!!) and I want to share this video with her!

Expand full comment
Tim Miller's avatar

yes soon

Expand full comment
Elaine H's avatar

It was a great interview, Tim. Thanks for having Terry on and a wonderful addition to independent media!

Expand full comment
theOriginalNicole's avatar

Hooray for independent journalism!!! We need brave truthful voices now more than ever.

Expand full comment
0:28
SPEAKER 1
Oh, well, it's somebody said somebody used the word skiting, which is a combination of scary and exciting. OK, which I'll buy. I would say it's exhilarating and daunting and scary. But but yeah, exhilarating. You know, I was at the point in my career,